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Subject: Why does Doyler f*ck McEmm


Author:
Oliver
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Date Posted: Tue, Mar 21 2006, 19:08:38 GMT

I just wondered if anyone here had any opinions on why Doyler agreed to and indeed insisted to f*ck McEmm after Jim had left for Dublin.

Obviously the nature of a book is to allow the reader to make their own interpretations of the motives of different events, but I would be interested in the thoughts of the other members here (and of course Jamie).

I thought I saw issues of power, but I felt confusion, was this fair on Jim, was this normal or acceptable.. more in what Jim would've expected from Doyler.. maybe I'm answering my own question.. because the nature of their love was that they never expected anything of each other. And because of the world the boys lived in, defining normal and acceptable is meaningless anyway...

Obviously these gay men had few examples of a monogmomous gay relationship but doesn't genuine love assume monogomy.

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[> Subject: Re: Why does Doyler f*ck McEmm


Author:
tom
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Date Posted: Sat, Mar 25 2006, 19:00:42 GMT

>I just wondered if anyone here had any opinions on why
>Doyler agreed to and indeed insisted to f*ck McEmm
>after Jim had left for Dublin.
>
>Obviously the nature of a book is to allow the reader
>to make their own interpretations of the motives of
>different events, but I would be interested in the
>thoughts of the other members here (and of course
>Jamie).
>
>I thought I saw issues of power, but I felt confusion,
>was this fair on Jim, was this normal or acceptable..
>more in what Jim would've expected from Doyler.. maybe
>I'm answering my own question.. because the nature of
>their love was that they never expected anything of
>each other. And because of the world the boys lived
>in, defining normal and acceptable is meaningless
>anyway...
>
>Obviously these gay men had few examples of a
>monogmomous gay relationship but doesn't genuine love
>assume monogomy.


Mmmm... I didn't enjoy any of the boys of their couplings with MacEmm as much as the boys together because it didn't seem special; more them being taught, learning. I did quite like the bit in Doyler and MacEmm's first coupling when Doyler tells MacEmm to keep away from Jim. The possesivness is so endearing.

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[> Subject: Re: Why does Doyler f*ck McEmm


Author:
Phoenixfire (confused too)
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Date Posted: Mon, Jan 06 2014, 22:25:44 GMT

To the OP,
I was also grossed out by that scene. It happened so randomly and written in a way that, right after the beautiful exchange b/w Jim and Doyler, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I never went to reread that part.

Anyway, I think Doyler answers the question there well. He says something like won't McEm pay him for it. He also asks McEm if he will pay Jim too, and look after him. Maybe Doyler was frightened that, if he dies (which is such a common possibility for people going to war) and if something happens to Jim's family, there won't be anyone left to take care of Jim (who's still very naive). Maybe this was Doyler's way of ensuring that McEm "pays" and looks after Jim.

Nevertheless, plenty of passages in the book made me feel the relation b/w Jim and Doyler wasn't expected to be "monogamous", which breaks my heart because I place monogamy at the center of any relationship. But then again, these boys don't really know anything about gay relationships or the fact that gay people are capable of leading lives like straight people. Besides they were very young. Maybe, and I hope that, had Doyler not died, and they managed to have a future together, they'd become monogamous to one another? I think so. At least I hope so.

One thing though, most people I know had similar problems with McEm and his sexually-exploitative scenes with Doyler, and same goes for any scenes involving Jim and people other than Doyler (like with the soldier). I suppose that was O Neill's way of writing -- the love making scenes b/w Jim and Doyler are so beautifully written and also heartbreaking for its sheer beauty, but the love-making scenes b/w Doyler and McEm, or the one b/w Jim and the soldier (like Jim feeling guilty about it and confessing it to a priest) is deliberately written in a more 'dark' way that seems more repulsive in nature. So, that was probably a way to show that, unless there is genuine love involved, sex -- as much fun as it maybe in the moment -- is an empty thing. After all, even when Jim and Doyler weren't making love (like pretty much all of their scenes save two), they were still so beautiful to read. Whereas, even with full-blown descriptions, any of the other sex scenes in the book didn't feel 'right'. At least that' what I got out of the text.

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