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Date Posted: 10:16:55 03/20/05 Sun
Author: H - 20 Feb 2005
Subject: Resources
In reply to: H - 20 Feb 2005 's message, "Re: Ramdas stages" on 10:12:26 03/20/05 Sun

No idea what happened to the Surat Shabd people. Nada Yoga is nothing new either. Perhaps they took several ancient traditions and recreated mental images of them. Or mixed up several things. At any rate there is a lot of imagination to be found already with Soamiji Shiv Dayal Singh, not only with the Great Hazur. I also do not trust the Ramayana interpretations of Tulsi Sahib. Note that all those higher stages in Hindu tradition are described as essentially being formless or transcendent, while the satsangis see many colors, masters and symbols and hear many sounds but don't even mention anything as simple as the Atman. Simplicity does not sell; Ramdas says people prefer difficult paths because they do not believe in simple ones.

Shivanath has very rightly remarked that we do not need secret initiations in India. Some people in India may have the knowledge and the spirit, but surely no invincible techniques effective for all. In the case of great yogis there seem to have been no techniques at all - only transmission of Shakti, and devotion and aspiration on the part of the disciple, and performance of any practice they like best. Ramdas and Aurobindo agree that meditation is essentially nothing but auto-suggestion, and imagination the only way out of the normal consciousness. Even Kriya makes massive use of this. The idea that yoga is a science is misleading.


Below are some more Ramdas resources for your research. I love Ramdas. Like Ramakrishna he must have been one of the very few who seem to have had direct truth-perception and never went wrong. The Mother said something to the effect too. The great Yogananda disciple Mother Hamilton apparently attained Nirvikalpa in the early 1950's, shortly after Yogananda's passing, but was promised to meet God Himself too. Some time later she ran into Ramdas on his world tour and recognized him. Indeed he thought of himself as both devotee and Lord at the same time in his last years. He even considered assuming a transformed body but dropped the idea as he was fully satisfied with every condition Ram put him in. A strange man.


In 1954 Ramdas visited the spiritual writer Henry Thomas Hamblin at his home in Chichester, England.

Hamblin: May I ask a question? When you arrive at God-consciousness and realize that you are everywhere, what comes next?

Ramdas: There are four stages. Ramdas will describe them. One is when, by total surrender to the divine will, the ego is dissolved completely. Egolessness means realization of the all-pervading Spirit or God. Then we know that we and that Spirit are one. So long as the ego persists we are not aware of that Spirit and we do not know our identity with it. After that comes the vision of the Divine everywhere in the manifestation. The whole universe is seen thereafter as the expression of that Spirit. We see God everywhere. But there is a third stage still. In that we see the manifest and the umanifest as the two aspects of one Truth which is beyond both, which is unthinkable, incomprehensible and inexpressible. We can express something about the static and the dynamic, but that which is beyond these is incomprehensible and ineffable. The dynamic, the static and the unthinkable all together make the supreme Godhead. He is all-inclusive and all-transcendent. Even after realizing that, there is the fourth stage in which we keep up a relationship with God. It is purely personal. He is our constant companion. We can talk to Him. We can feel His presence. That is the best and the sweetest relationship. Having had all the earlier experiences, we still enjoy a close relationship with the Divine in His personal presence, and that presence Ramdas has been asked by so many to define. But it is very difficult to define it. He is the Impersonal Person.

-- Swami Ramdas, World is God, 1954, pp.104-105



Devotee: Sri Aurobindo in his book Integral Yoga says that for Self-Realization the first step is for a man to come into the world and act.

Papa: He never said like that. You are misquoting him. Self-Realization is the realization of the Purusha, which can be attained only through Jnana. After that you have to see the world as the manifestation of Divine Shakti. Both are the aspects of the same Truth, viz., Purushottama. Static and dynamic together make up the Godhead. Therefore in the 15th chapter of the Gita you will find that Purushottama Yoga: union with Prakriti and Purusha and beyond. Such a person who has given up his ego and merged himself in Purushottama is acting and non-acting at the same time. As Purusha he is non-acting, as Prakriti he is acting. That is the teaching of Sri Aurobindo, based upon the message of the Gita.

Therefore the first step is Jnana which is necessary for selfless action. You become an instrument in the hands of the Divine. The universal Shakti is acting through you. For what purpose? For universal welfare. There is no individuality there.

Devotee: That is 'Aham Brahmasmi' state.

Papa: 'Aham Brahmasmi' state is a step to higher realization. Universal manifestation is an expression of God's power. It is not rejected as false. Your body is a manifestation of that power. When the ego-sense is there there is the consciousness that you are the body, because Jnana is not there. Jnana destroys the ego-sense. Therefore, Jnana is necessary. Then there is the consciousness that the universal power works in and through you.

Devotee: In his book World is God Papa speaks of his experience of static and dynamic aspects and also of Purushottama. Papa speaks also of personal relationship with God over and above this experience.

Papa: That is inexplicable. Everybody is the personal aspect of God and Ramdas loves him. On the personal side also he loves Him. The so-called individual is not there. Knowing inwardly, through Jnana, that you are one with everybody, outwardly you can play any part. [...] You can play any part, but you know inwardly you are the Atman. Jnana is the basis, but after that, in the personal aspect, you can play any part. So you can love everybody looking upon yourself as child, servant, devotee and the like.

Papa: You must go beyond Jnana and Ajnana. Ajnana is removed by Jnana, but Jnana is there. The instance is given of the thorn in your foot. You use another thorn to remove the one in your foot, and after removing it what you do is to throw away both the thorns. Thus when both Jnana and Ajnana disappear you have Vijnana. You cannot express what it is. Both Jnana and Ajnana you can explain. In both the cases there is a tinge of the ego: "I am a Jnani; I am an Ajnani." In Vijnana there is absolutely no "I"-sense. that means you have transcended both Jnana and Ajnana. If you are asked who you are, you do not answer; you keep quiet, because there is nobody to answer. That means, mouna is the answer. Therefore, the best way to express that state is to hold your tongue - not to say anything about it. That is why they say, "Silence is Brahman." Whatever you say is not that. It is called Truth, Experience or Realization, which is unthinkable and inexpressible - where thoughts and words fail.

Devotee: When two people who have had this experience happen to meet, will they be able to understand each other?

Papa: They may understand intuitionally.

Devotee: Is there difference between saints and Self-realized souls?

Papa: All Self-realized souls are not saints. All saints are Self-realized souls. Saints are much more than Self-realized souls.

Devotee: How to distinguish between the two?

Papa: You can feel it. Your heart will tell you. There is no other test. Saints move freely in the world, though it may not be true in all cases.

-- Swami Ramdas, God-Experience Vol. II, 1961, pp.136-138



"The liberated soul freed through the realization of Atman, which is only one aspect of the Lord, still strives to know and merge in the supreme Godhead in all His aspects and existences. Here starts the path of utter self-dedication leading the awakened soul to a vision and status which baffles description. He now beholds the entire universe and all beings, creatures and things in it as the very expression and revealment of the invisible, infinite, immutable, eternal, unthinkable and transcendent supreme Reality. He experiences not only the unchanging calmness and peace of his oneness with God in the universe and beyond but also the bliss of the pure, intimate and loving communion with Him in the visible universe and all activities in it. So it is made clear at the end of the Gita that the highest acme of God-realization is to be a perfect devotee of the Lord - a veritable embodiment of divine knowledge, divine action, and divine love. Such a devotee is the very form and expression of God or God Himself in human form. Sri Krishna - the Purushottama has revealed Himself in his (the devotee's) heart and has absorbed him into His ineffable and extremely wonderful Being."

-- Swami Ramdas, The Pathless Path, p.45



Papa: Ramdas is not a pure advaitin. He believes in the co-existence of dvaita and advaita. The jivanmukta retains a higher subtle individuality; he moves about and acts in the world realising that he and God are one. Ramdas in this body is active in doing things. Whatever he may do, he is at the same time conscious that he is the eternal and all-pervading Reality. So, in that state there is separation and unity simultaneously.

S.: Is there no state when the jivanmukta can lose his individuality in the One and be free of birth?

Papa: That is possible. That is what the jnanis do. They do not believe in the existence of a higher individuality at all. As soon as the lower individuality is dissolved, they cease to exist as separate entities. There cannot be any rebirth for them. Adi Sankaracharya was one of that type.



THE GOD OF GODS

In the heart of the child Ramdas
Is seated the God of gods--
The highest Truth,
The transcendent Reality.
The Universe we behold
Is a mere speck in the infinite
Vastness of His Existence.
He is purer than the purest,
Greater than the greatest,
Light of all lights,
The inexpressible grandest Truth.
Child Ramdas is He,
And everything that is, and is not, is He.




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