Observations on tonights game -- Fairfield Stags Hoops Forum

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Date Posted: 11:32:17pm 11/21/05 Mon,
Author: Reindeer Fan
Subject: Observations on tonights game

I was at tonights game. There were certainly bright spots but how can you look at a lose like this as anything but ugly. Here are my observations:
1) TOT must not think much of Middleton. How can Middleton the only legitimate big man spend so much time on the bench. The only answer I can come up with is TOT thinks the kid can't play. I personally think you have to throw this kid out on the court and take your lumps. Work with him to try and develop him as quickly as possible. The stags cannot win without someone his size at center and he is the only option the stags have. Much like the stags had to go with Andy Woodli, they need to put GM out there for good or for bad. Geoff made a couple of very nice blocks tonight.
2) Marty O'Sullivan is a good ballplayer. He did an admirable job tonight. He is however not a center and was never recruited to play center. He might be an above average forward but he is a below average center. He is smaller and lighter than everyone he goes up against. I expect teams to score on Fairfield inside at will. This is not a knock on Marty. He shouldn't be asked to guard guys that are 6'9 250. He doesn't have the size to match up with these players. I thought Mary played as well as we could have hoped.
3) JH is a real good player. You are looking at the Maac rookie of the year and an all conference player down the line. He can pass and shoot. His defensive game is not as well developed however as his offensive game. He was beat early and often. The man he defended hit three trey's early in the game. I'd still start this kid every game he is going to be a special player.
4) Alvin Carter does more with less than anyone on this squad.
5) Herbie Allen. I like this kid as well but he is not nearly as ready to play as Han. On defensive Herbie buys the ball fake every time. He leaves his feet way too much. He overplays his man and gets beat. He was too anxious out there tonight. He's a good recruite but not quite ready for prime time.
6) Michael Bell play good defensive and takes good shots. He is a smart, fundamentally solid player.
7) I'd like to see the stat sheet for tonights game. I don't recall the stags getting a single rebound before the 4 minute mark in the first half. Were the rebounding numbers as bad as they seemed?
8) I came prepared to see the stags running the princeton offense. What I saw was the same old stagnant offensive a little better executed by some better offensive players. Yeah the stags will score more this year, this group is clearly more talented offensively. But just scoring more isn't enough. They are going to have to run a very high percentage offense to make up for what is expected to be a lack of rebounding and defensive abilities. I don't think the offensive sets we saw tonight no matter how well executed get the job done. This team needs to run an offensive that exploits the speed and passing abilities of these players. I saw some pretty excellent passing tonight from Marty O'Sullivan, Jon Han and Michael Bell.
9) Danny O got 3 fouls in the first three minutes he played. We won't get to see him for more than 5 minutes a night with numbers like this.
10) I said we'd go 2-7 out of conference but 1-8 or 0-9 were possible. I think 0-9 is now the most likely scenario. I only hope the addition on DM2 is enough to right this ship. Initially, I thought we'd be fine when they become eligible to play, and I hope my initial optimism was founded in reality. This team was badly overmatched tonight...

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Replies:

[> Re: Observations on tonights game -- JoeStag, 09:33:03am 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

RF,

Agree with much of your observations. but here are some comments

Middleton might have to get more minutes, but its probably more due to that we are not getting production out of Carter or Reedal at that postion, rather than what Middleton has done. In most cases, giving PT to a player that does not deserve it, just to give him on teh job training, is not good for team harmony, but under these cirmcumstances in this 1st sememster, it might make sense

MOS needs help on the inside, and I agree that MOS is not capable of defending a true center with skills, but I think most MAAC teams will play without centers and MOS should matchup a lot better as he is similar to most MAAC starters in frontcourt. Right now, there is not a good option to play along side him .

I was expecting our offense to stuggle tonight, because St Joes has an excellent defense, but I thought we still passed well. Our defense was what surprised me, as St Joes had too many open shots. The Frosh will improve their defense, thats part of the learning process, but Oglesby did too much grabbing and clutching. The whole idea of not having a good defensive team is not good.

A lack of a comment on MVS on your part is very reflective of how he played....... he is not doing enough. He is invisible, and thats not good enough for a player that I was expecting to be one of our top players this year. Sometimes we focus on what players cannot do, and thats typical that mid major players do have limitations to their game. But IMO, to win games, you need players that can do something. I really like MVS's skills, but untill he starts to become more aggressive, we are not going to win, and he has to relize that. He needs to play more like Michael Bell right now. Bell's missed a lot of shots, but he has also made his 3's at about 30%. His continued shooting will pay off, as he is getting himself into good position

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[> [> Re: Observations on tonights game -- campion109, 10:08:34am 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

agree with most of the above but I am feeling a little more skeptical.

1) We are small. We are going to have rebounding issues all year and that scares me.

2) John Han is outstanding. A number of times he made passes that nobody was expecting.

3) No free throws in the first half? Are we afraid to penetrate?

4) I think the AHY experiment has failed. Hopefully that marketing group can drum up some interest and support as there was nobody at the game. Kudos for the students for showing up but, for a somewhat marquee game to draw less than 3,000 is pathetic. The local community does not, for the most part, care for the events and it showed last night where our home opener was pretty much empty - even with the new configuration.

5) I will not concede the season yet as it's only two games old but last night's game was probably the worst game I have ever seen them play...

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[> [> [> It Wasn't A Marquee Game -- Frank F, 01:03:44pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Because one of the the teams- namely Fairfield, has few Div I players on its roster, and those they do have are always playing out of position. This situation started developing last year - some of us at that time were pointing to a lack of size and strength up front.The coaching staff has not done anything to solve that problem. The loss to St Francis only reinforced that desperate situation, with even Joe Stag admitting we got beaten by some 6-4 and 6-5 forwards that were too big & too strong for us to handle. You can't go on fooling people by telling them our problems are solved because we have great shooting guards (we don't) that are going to run the opposition into the group. How many times did our guards penetrate and have their shots blocks by St. Joe's players who never even jumped to do it. They just extended their arms in the air...that's all they had to do because they were so much bigger than our players.
We are usually playing the game with four guards and one forward and you cannot get away with it.
People will come when you produce a winning team. It looks like we are several years away from even the possibility of that.

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[> [> [> [> Re: It Wasn't A Marquee Game -- JoeStag, 01:57:07pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Frank,

If your going to reference me, try to at least get it right :-). I did not say that St Francis's 6-4/6-5 players were "too big and too strong for us". Thats not true. St Francis players were exact duplicates of Maxwell and Mamadou type players, and I said they were "quick, strong, athletic and could score". St Francis had those players and we did not. MAAC teams also have those players, so without Max and Mamdou we have some real issues even in the MAAC.

For a portion of our tough OOC schedule (St Joes, Providence, Iowa and Georgetown), Yes, we are going to be significantly outsized, but that is still no excuse of how we played last night. IMO, shooting only 3 FT's last night is reflective that we need to be more physical to get to the line, and to play tougher defense/rebounding.

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[> [> Re: Observations on tonights game -- Rave, 10:39:26am 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

I agree with most of the comments made. However, after watching this game and some of the scrimmages, I believe that Reedal must play more. His upside is huge. He has a great stroke and I think he can get as many rebounds as Carter has gotten in 2 games (1). If we are going to lose games before the MAAC season, and we are going to lose many if not all, then at least let's get Reedal, Herbie and Hahn the experience they need to make us better in the new year.

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[> [> [> Reedal, Middleton or Carter -- JoeStag, 12:42:27pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Defense and Rebounding are two of the major areas that need improvement, and a lot of the improvement needs to come from the position along side MOS. And while neither of the 3 contenders (Reedal, Middleton or Carter) have distinguished themselves defensively. There does seem to be a rebounding stat that is quite interesting that Rave pointed out. Reedal has as many Rebounds Carter. There is minimal statistical data but here are the rebounds/minute for each of those 3 players

Reedal - .27
Middleton - .10
Carter - .08

That's quite a difference when you consider that a stat of .20 is what a good rebounder usually gets. MOS is at .27, and Gai was at .26, Maxwell was at .18, and MOS at .22 last year.

Now Middleton give us a tall presence, and Carter gives us strength. But rebounding is more about getting it done, so if Reedal is showing a nose for rebounding, maybe he should be more of an option. He certainly brings more offense to the table than Carter and Middleton. I can't comment on Reedal's defense as I have not seen him that often. Has anybody watch Reedal on Defense.

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[> [> Re: Observations on tonights game -- Reindeer Fan, 01:25:15pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

JS - I didn't know what to say about MVS. He didn't have a lot of turnovers and never does, because he doesn't do anything to create offense. Defensively he covered the 6'10 guy he was assigned quite admirably in the post, but couldn't cover anybody on the outside. The guards blew past him and as someone else noted, even the 6'10 guy was faster off the dribble than he was. I didn't want my post to be all negatives, but certainly defensively, I was looking for more from MVS than he delivered last night. But then, I think I got say that about Danny O, Han, Todd, etc. etc....Tom

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[> Comments on the comments -- SonofDoc, 11:06:40am 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

1. I agree that Middleton must continue to get minutes so help him develop. He was brought into Fairfield with a certain level of talent, and game minutes are all about on the job training. I think there are very few Fairfield players who have contributed any level of success without first having to endure a trial period with a learning curve, and that includes such players as Darren Phillip and Robbie Thompson. If O'Toole brought him into Fairfield, he should have some minimum level of skill that should be utilized, he is not "trying out" for the team. His minutes last night were of higher quality than his limited minutes last year. Even though it was a 30 point game in the last minute, he should not have thrown up that 3 point shot. I hope he was corrected on that.

2. I thought the team played hard last night and hustled, which makes the crushing defeat even harder to swallow. My expectations are not high for teh first half of the year, but realize no one else in the MAAC is starting out on fire either.

3. I liked the new configuation very much. The crowd was a disappointment but hopefully will be better next week with a Big East team coming in.

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[> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- JoeStag, 11:51:33am 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Sonof Doc,

I would agree with you about Thomson and Phillip getting minutes as on the job training, but both of them provided immediate impact for us winning games. Those 2 did not enter the game for the sole purpose of OJT. If Middleton can provide some impact while he is in, then I am all for OJT. I think right now there is little material difference between Middleton, Carter and Reedal.

But a better of example of of playing a player just for OJT was Gai his frosh year. He played over Thomson, and probably did not win that job over Robbie. His learning on the job was so much an issue, and we lost a lot of games that we shouldn't have........ until TOT went to the Platoon system. Another example of playing players on Potential and giving them OJT was Siena last year playing all their freshman guards last year.

I think its pretty obvious when a player like Phillip, Thomson, Todd, Maxwell or Han come along. When a Gai comes along and is raw, the decision is not that obvious. Don't know if Middleton is the guy, or some say invest in Reedal, or is Carter the option. IMO, they should at least share the 40 minutes.

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[> [> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- RayS, 12:42:18pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

The problem is either the players we have recruited were overrated or they have not improved over the years they have played at FU. When Todd came I read about what a great guard he would be for us now in his senior year he is outplayed by a freshman! He and Bell should be our leaders out there.

There is something seriosly wrong when your seniors are not stepping up and providing leadershipby example. The only player to do so in the last 5-6 years was RT and he would not have been given the opportunity if DG hadn't been hurt.

Lack of size is a convenient excuse for the St. Joe's loss but does not account for the loss to St. Francis. If you look at Todd's stats fromboth games they are disturingly similar. one would expect him to have amuch better game against the lower level of competition from an NEC team.

My point is that either our expectations of the young man's abilities were set too high or he has not progressed from his freshman year. If the latter is the case then in 3 years we may be saying the same thing about Jon Han. I certainly don't blame the players for this but in fairness to them if their ability levelhas been overhyped we should not be asking them to compete against the St. Joe's of the world. As someone else pointed out lets play Sacred Heart & teams at that level where at least the games are entertaining & competitive.

I shudder to think at what will happen against Iowa. Again I'm not blaming the players, maybe we need more realistic scheduling.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- Running Man, 02:48:26pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Ray, I agree with much of what you have written. This business of scrutinizing a player's H.S. stats and assuming that he will make a contribution on that basis is sheer folly. Reserve judgement until you have seen him play. Disallusionment and disappointment are too often the byproducts of not doing this. Many will disagree with me, but in my opinion TOT is at best an average recruiter. It seems that he has had great difficulty recruiting shooters unlike some of our MAAC brethren who always seem to have a couple of guys who are deadly from the perimeter. From what I see it will take an act of God to transform our guys into any kind of consistent outside threats. We have been waiting on some of our guys for two or three years to develop, but they are the same players now that they were when they arrived (in some cases less proficient). And don't get me started on the frontcourt.

In assessing our current crop of players I would say that most are average MAAC guys and are playing at the level where they belong. Some should actually be at a lower level than the MAAC. Sorry to be blunt, but this is the reality of the situation.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- RayS, 05:23:17pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Hey RM good to "talk" to you again. My question is if TOT is only an average recruiter, and as some have said only an average "x's&o's" guy, what is the argument for keeping him around for the next 5-8 years?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- Running Man, 09:34:21pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Ray,
Have you run that marathon yet?

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[> [> [> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- Menzies, 04:05:11pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

I watched a bit of Iowa-Kentucky last night. The thought going through my head was that Iowa will just continue to get offensive rebounds until they score.....every single possession!!!!!!!

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[> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- Stagman, 12:37:20pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

If Middleton can get some rebounds, make a couple of shots down low, and block a shot or two, then he should play. We got outrebounded last night 34-21 and allowed nearly 60% shooting. I find it hard to believe that a 6'9" player wouldn't help a bit, unless he has absolutely no skills.

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[> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- Chuck, 04:48:56pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Hate to have to say this, but you should take a look at this kid in practice.

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[> [> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- ghostman, 05:14:08pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Please elaborate -

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[> [> [> [> Re: Comments on the comments -- Chuck, 10:35:06pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

From seeing a couple of practices it seems he is very confused each time the squad goes through the plays they are required to run. On two occasions he was pulled out and given a talk. One time he was removed and one of the assistants spent about 10 minutes on the sidelines with him. I don't know; I guess this happens with a lot of players. Whether attitude or lack of court instinct, he seems to get lost more than others.

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[> Re: Observations on tonights game -- Nashville Stag Fan, 04:58:31pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

There are so many points to discuss here, but I will stick to the playing time issues between Carter, Reedal, and Middleton. As much as I think we all like Carter as a person and a representative of the school, its clear that his game has certain limitations and he is taking too many minutes from the other two. When we play a huge team like St. Joes, its a good time to put GM at center, move Marty to the 4, (where he is more comfortable), and then we immediately become a lot larger. As far as JR, he has been weak on defense, but has potential,and should get more time. This way we will be better prepared for the MAAC.

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[> [> Re: Observations on tonights game -- 79er, 05:46:14pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

I don't think we can throw Middleton into the mix if he's not ready. It could, if possible, make things worse.

I am ready to jump off the bridge like everyone else, but until Max and MD are on the floor together, we cannot make a fair judgment on this team. We know that Maxwell can play well vs. MAAC frontlines and perhaps MD can as well.

Yes, out of conference is going to be a disaster, but the league may not be.

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[> [> Re: Observations on tonights game -- Frank F, 07:41:19pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Who cares about the league? Have you been following the league thus far this year? We are now one of the worst leagues in the nation.
Do you really care what happens in the Loyola game? I don't.
Yea, St Joes's, Providence, Iowa, Fordham -these are the games that matter. We will lose them all, probably embarrassingly so. We will probably lost most of our MAAC games too.

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[> [> [> Re: Observations on tonights game -- TPFKAECO, 09:57:53pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

Except for Fordham, even a very good Fairfield would generally get spanked by those major conference teams.

If your satisfication with the program is going to be based solely on the Stags winning those "up" games, you are going to be one unhappy fan, even in the best of times.

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[> [> [> Re: Observations on tonights game -- Frank F, 11:14:34pm 11/22/05 Tue, [1]

You are correct, however all I am looking for is for us to be competitive in some of these games. That would satisfy me, but even that has rarely been true.

Good MAAC teams in the past have often been competitive in these games. Granted, rarely winning. When we have teams like St Joe's, Providence, and Fordham coming into our home to play, a decent mid major team should give them a tussle.

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