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• I finished Room last week, so am willing to discuss any time soon. Format??? I'll do whatever! (NT) -- PeggyB (actually Denise posting from Peggy's laptop) (), 19:09:54 10/22/11 Sat
  • Shite! Not Peggy, but me in above post! I'm using her computer in Surrey and forgot to change the name that automatically comes up. (NT) -- Denise, 08:29:52 10/23/11 Sun
    • Lol! You're a dual personality! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 17:33:00 10/23/11 Sun
      • Haha! I do sometimes wonder! BTW, don't think Peggy has read the book. (NT) -- Denise, 20:16:57 10/23/11 Sun
• Ready when you are. Like Peggy, no format restrictions from me. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:23:52 10/23/11 Sun
  • Umm, like Denise I mean. =) (NT) -- Elaine, 12:30:20 10/23/11 Sun
• I started reading on my Kindle last night and I've almost finished it today. I'm at 75% (NT) -- Lil, 17:34:20 10/23/11 Sun
  • It's an easy read. Made me really tense, though. (NT) -- Elaine, 19:31:34 10/23/11 Sun
    • I finished it last night around 8 pm. Quick read, but still emotional. (NT) -- Lil, 08:30:05 10/24/11 Mon
• My copy of the book has 13 discussion questions - would you like me to post a question every other day and then we can just chat about anything else as it comes up? (NT) -- Lil, 08:31:30 10/24/11 Mon
  • That sounds easy and should promote discussion. Why not? (NT) -- Denise, 09:28:24 10/24/11 Mon
  • Sure sounds good to me. (NT) -- Elaine, 09:53:16 10/24/11 Mon
• I have been flooded by books from the library. It is as though all my holds came in at once!!! I haven't read this book, but might pop in to see the discussion to learn what it is about. (NT) -- PeggyB (really Peggy), 07:32:55 10/25/11 Tue
  • Funny you mention this...I keep wanting to put a few requests for books at my library, but I'm afraid of just what you are talking about and then not being able to get them read before my times up. Just keeps my TBR list growing and growing. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 19:49:53 10/25/11 Tue
    • I've got about 4 books on suspension at the library - waiting until I have the time to release the suspension and read the darn things! Maybe over Christmas? (NT) -- Denise, 20:45:54 10/25/11 Tue
      • Denise, I now see why you were using Peggy's name up there, you're a Library Felon! LOL! I can't stand to have overdue books...worked in at my university library, so I'm a little over-sensitive about those fees. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 06:53:37 10/27/11 Thu
        • Me too, but when the fine is 10¢ per day and gas is $4 per gallon, sometimes I have to be late if it requires a separate trip. (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:40:24 10/27/11 Thu
          • Oh no, suspension of the books means my hold on the books is on suspension until I have time to read them. No, I'm a good, honest citizen here!!! (NT) -- Denise, 08:46:47 10/27/11 Thu
• I read it last january, it's not all fresh in my memory but if you don't mind me, I might pop in to talk about it with you Ladies! (NT) -- Isabelle, 06:48:40 10/26/11 Wed
  • Absolutely! (NT) -- Denise, 09:05:38 10/26/11 Wed
  • you are more than welcome, Isabelle! We'll start on the 1st of November. (NT) -- Lil, 12:06:12 10/26/11 Wed
  • We'd love to have you join us, Isa! (NT) -- Elaine, 18:41:13 10/26/11 Wed
    • Thank You! :-) (NT) -- IsabelleKiltup, 18:11:41 10/27/11 Thu
• I think I'm going to pass on this one- not because of the book itself, just that I can't seem to settle to read anything right now. This always happens when I finish up writing one of my own, I just can't find the focus to read other books for a few months. (NT) -- celtgirl, 19:44:41 10/27/11 Thu
  • I can only imagine how your brain must be spinning. (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:27:53 10/28/11 Fri
    • I think I just feel word weary, Peggy. So between editing and re-reading my own work, I just can't find the brain cells for any other books. (NT) -- celtgirl, 16:22:03 10/28/11 Fri
      • I've never been good at editing my own writing. Sometimes it is embarassing to see what my boss sends back to me, LOL (NT) -- PeggyB, 19:55:58 10/28/11 Fri
        • Oh, I'm not doing my own edits, putting edits in place by others, but it's the reading it out loud that's really pointing out a whole lot of things to me. (NT) -- celtgirl, 00:05:02 10/29/11 Sat
  • No worries. It's a very relaxed discussion. Pop in if you need a distraction. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 12:40:20 10/31/11 Mon

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• q1) It might be a reference to himself, to the person he is now after this incredible journey (the actual journey itself plus his intro to the sociopolitical world)). #1 - he is reborn a more ruthless man; #2 - he has failed miserably and is as good as dead; #3 - he will never be the man he once was, he is now more like a wild animal desperately clawing toward his future. Okay, maybe a bit dramatic there with that last one, but you get my drift. I also feel this line is like a premonition regarding Marian and a child. q2) This is Nicholas - you bet I believe he could see this coming. He knows the ways and reactions of people too well. q3) Initially, yes, a little. But after thinking about it I realized it was meant to be. They are two very intelligent, calculating people. They'd be drawn together in any situation. It was to Nicholas' credit that he waited this long. (NT) -- Elaine, 06:25:26 10/14/11 Fri
• Can I just say that I, too, love Nicholas. Okay, so he can be very cunning and calculating and sometimes cruel, as we'll see in future books in this series. But somehow I get him. In my mind he's not as complex as Lymond, but every bit as intelligent. (NT) -- Elaine, 06:26:33 10/14/11 Fri
• Q1) It seems to me that he may be saying that 7 months is not long enough for a healthy birth and using this as the euphemism for his transformation. I think he may be doubting if the time is enough for his re-birth from Claes to Nicholas. I also think he is nervous and anxious about seeing Marian. Q2) I think its very plausible that Nicholas knew how things would go. He's mastered seeing things from anothers perspective and this gives him the ability to move the chess pieces around the board and understand how different plays will end up with different results. Q3) I was only slightly shocked, but I think that was more related to Marian's death than the action itself. I think he and Violante have had a good chemistry for a while and she's a good (I don't know if I'd say safe, however) person to find relief for his physical and personal needs. (NT) -- Lil, 21:40:39 10/14/11 Fri
• Another excellent read from DD. Nicholas has really grown on me and I look forward to the next book in the series. I've already got it on my Kindle for reading. Just waiting for things to settle down so I can focus on the reading. Thanks for a good discussion, ladies! (NT) -- Lil, 21:42:17 10/14/11 Fri
  • I"m ready to move on with the next book too, I can't wait to see what mischief Nicholas may find. Might I suggest we do two books next year so we aren't so long reading the series? (NT) -- Denise, 09:07:31 10/15/11 Sat
    • I was thinking about suggesting the same thing, Denise. Maybe one near the beginning of the year and one partway through or near the end. (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:51:37 10/15/11 Sat
      • Sounds good to me! I'm for discussing the next one. The Fall is probably the busiest time for me, so putting DD at the start of the year is better for me - more time to focus on the details. (NT) -- Lil, 13:18:52 10/15/11 Sat
• I read this book in the springtime, probably a lot of times at 3 in the morning when I was having trouble sleeping, so it was great to do the read with the group. I had forgotten how devastated Nicholas was at the death of Marion. What a good man he is, even if there is a major manipulator in action most of the time. He has similar qualities to Lymond, but I understand his motives more clearly than Lymond who gave me many WTF moments! (NT) -- Denise, 09:10:54 10/15/11 Sat
  • I know I was sure devastated when it was learned that Marion had died. I had that lump in my chest and I caught my breath when it was confirmed. I immediately felt a worry for Nicholas as she seemed to be his "reason" and now he has to find a new focus. I'm sure he'll figure it out though. He's filled quite a few volumes with his story. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 13:21:12 10/15/11 Sat
    • Me, too. Marian helped shape Nicholas into the confident young man he eventually became. I loved her for that, and for seeing his potential. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:22:30 10/16/11 Sun

Sultan Mehmet II

Last edited by author: Mon October 10, 2011 18:51:55   Edited 1 time.
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• Q3. I would think it finally hits him how outmatched he was up against Nicholas. I don't think Doria really ever doubted his ability to go up against Nicholas and win, not even after the utter loss he received from Nicholas' hands when the camel trains arrived, or didn't as it were. He probably couldn't believe he was dying right there in front of Nicholas, and without the chance to say a word about who Nicholas really was, there in the enemy's camp. (NT) -- celtgirl, 19:24:01 10/10/11 Mon
  • It must have been 'killing' (haha) Doria not to squeal on Nicholas and see him meet the same untimely end. Doria was so smug, and probably incredulous that this was happening to him. (NT) -- Denise, 22:08:59 10/10/11 Mon
• Q2. A little surprised, but not too much because she is starting to show a different side, in spots. She's obviously got a very good head for business, and she started to distrust her husband long before he died. But I felt sad for her too, I think the dog was the one creature she was truly fond of. I think it's clear from the beginning of this book that Catherine is extremely willful, but now we see that willfulness could become strength. (NT) -- celtgirl, 19:26:34 10/10/11 Mon
• q1) Maybe the others regard Julius as being too much on the inside, too close to the family. And Nicholas is part of that family, too. Julius himself seems to prefer staying on the fringes. I can see how the others might feel he's not really 'one of them.' q2) Yes, because she seemed to adore him. But she grew up so much during this horrible experience with Doria, and she needed to divorce herself from all reminders of it. I like what Cindy said about her willfulness eventually becoming a strength. q3) Good question! How humiliating he must have felt, to die with the eyes of his rival/enemy trained on him. A fitting ending for such a despicable little toad. (NT) -- Elaine, 06:00:42 10/11/11 Tue
• Q1.I think Julius at times is still thinking of Claes the apprentice, and not Nicholas, the head of this leg of the Charetty company. He's had a far different relationship with Nicholas compared to the others and it is reflected in his behaviour. (NT) -- Denise, 08:37:26 10/11/11 Tue
• Q2. I read this part late last night, and it's very sad for Catherine to lose her only friend. The action definitely showed her advanced maturity. Am I reading this correctly, or does it seem that she's looking for Nicholas' favour now, almost recalling the boy she loved, and forgetting his place as stepfather in the household? She seemed annoyed at the end of the chapter when she remembers that there should be letters from her mother (Nicholas' wife). (NT) -- Denise, 08:46:24 10/11/11 Tue

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• I have to play catch-up on my reading. After finishing my three chapters, I gave priority to reading a library book. Will get back soon, I hope. (NT) -- Denise, 11:07:50 10/08/11 Sat
  • No worries, Denise. I think I posted too soon here. This was my best day of the coming 4 or 5, so thought I'd better take advantage. (NT) -- Elaine, 11:26:44 10/08/11 Sat
  • I've gotten behind as well, but I hope to catch up. I might be to these chapters (need to check, my memory is shot) but I know I'm not to the ones I'm supposed to summarize next. And Elaine, this is great. We have a few days to work through the questions before I post my chapters. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 13:08:41 10/08/11 Sat
    • Just from this summary it looks like I am in the middle of Chapter 35, so not too far behind. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 13:09:39 10/08/11 Sat
• Q2. I think part of her reason may be to keep Nicholas sweet. She knows he wants to get Catherine out and away from Doria, so it's something she can do. They want to be able to control him, and use his skills for Venice, so in exchange this is something relatively easy she can do. Plus she may enjoy doing something to hurt Doria. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:46:32 10/08/11 Sat
• Q1. He's brilliant, he's unpredictable and those traits make him fascinating to watch. He's kind to people too, especially those that need kindness. But he has an incredible flare for vengeance too. He's clearly putting out a vibe to women that he's great in bed too, and they respond accordingly. I always get the sense he brings joy to the bed, if that makes sense, and that a woman would never leave his capable hands without being fully sated. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:48:49 10/08/11 Sat
  • Oh yes, it ALL makes sense! I've picked up on that vibe, too. =) (NT) -- Elaine, 16:34:22 10/08/11 Sat
    • Just thinking about the waterfall scene in 'Scorpions' makes me smile. (NT) -- celtgirl, 17:18:34 10/08/11 Sat
      • Wasn't that just a splendid scene... (NT) -- Elaine, 19:59:50 10/08/11 Sat
        • Ooooooh, I can't wait! (NT) -- Denise, 21:24:21 10/08/11 Sat
• I thought he was waiting on word that he could go meet with Sara Khatun. So it was time then to get themselves ready to go into the Sultan's camp, hence Nicholas' bout of marsh fever, so that he could conveniently disappear for a few days without anyone questioning his absence. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:58:30 10/08/11 Sat
  • I agree. He's waiting for her as he was smart enough to know to play both sides in this particular battle. (NT) -- Lil, 08:35:54 10/09/11 Sun
  • Yup, I would agree. The marsh fever is a great cover for Nicholas to be absent from court for several days and then he can take care of business with Sara Khatun. (NT) -- Denise, 09:58:57 10/09/11 Sun
• Q1) I think there are people who are just attractive to both sexes. He's got that "something" - whether its is brains, his looks, his swagger, etc. I don't think I've read enough (or maybe understood enough *g*) about Nicholas to see the full sexiness Cindy speaks of. Little glimpses for sure. (NT) -- Lil, 08:33:45 10/09/11 Sun
  • It makes the further books that much more intriguing. Right, Nalana? My DH is short, bald and not your typical sexy man, but he seems to attract enough interest from both sexes. Whatever it is, he's got it! And he's not all that happy sometimes about the interest from the boys, but other times he finds it amusing! (NT) -- Denise, 10:02:32 10/09/11 Sun
    • Yes, especially since I just finished this book....i'm wondering what will happen with our dear Nicholas now. (NT) -- Lil, 18:37:56 10/10/11 Mon
• Q2) It's definitely a strategic move for her. She doesn't lose anything by helping out Nicholas or Catherine and, as Cindy mentioned above, she gets some revenge on Doria and now Nicholas owes her a favor. It's definitely a win-win situation for her. (NT) -- Lil, 08:35:09 10/09/11 Sun
  • She's as calculating as Nicholas! (NT) -- Elaine, 16:48:00 10/09/11 Sun

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• I will try to post over the weekend. Edits are swallowing all my computer time, but I'll break from that on the weekend. (NT) -- celtgirl, 21:37:44 10/06/11 Thu
• Q1. Even when Nicholas is being used, he knows it and allows it, so I don't see him as ever being the toy. Q2. I think he takes his fidelity to Marian very seriously. It's one of the things I love about him. He may have other reasons for not wanting to be that deeply in Violante's clutches at this point. (NT) -- celtgirl, 06:58:49 10/07/11 Fri
  • I also got the impression that it was important to him to be faithful to Marion (agreed, it's a sweet trait), but there is probably more going on as well. Violante's allegiances are questionable, and she wields a lot of power, so it's understandable if he wants to keep her at arm's length right now. (NT) -- Denise, 11:01:52 10/07/11 Fri
• q1) Must agree with Cindy. Nicholas is nobody's toy unless he deems it necessary. But he can play along very convincingly when necessary, too. q2) He's a man, but he's also loyal to those he loves. It's one of several things that I find so endearing about him. I don't think he'd have relations with Violante now even if he had 100% certainty about her motives. (NT) -- E, 11:18:51 10/07/11 Fri
• Q1) I agree with both Elaine and Cindy on #1. Q2) I believe he is committed to Marion first and foremost. I also believe he wants to be seen in a better light (either by others or by himself) than the old Claes that was enjoying all the women he could. I also think he is more hesitant after what happened with Katelina. I think he learned some hard lessons there. (NT) -- Lil, 16:49:56 10/07/11 Fri

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• Sorry to have been out of the loop. It's my worst allergy season, feeling really crummy. Be back soon. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:47:05 10/06/11 Thu
  • I'm so sorry to hear that you are unwell. I hope you are able to find some good meds to alleviate your symptoms. (NT) -- Denise, 09:03:58 10/06/11 Thu
• Q1, I think his 'associates' still feel he's guilty of orchestrating a few deaths/demises but they are willing to accept that he almost died himself trying to do the best thing for the company. He may endanger the lives of others, but he places his own life in as much or more peril. I think his absence has made 'the heart grow fonder' too. Their attitudes have softened, and they seem more willing to let him take the lead, his youth and inexperience be d@amned. (NT) -- Denise, 09:09:28 10/06/11 Thu
• Q2, I'm not sure. Did Violante want to see if the company was operating as per usual, without the presence of Nicholas? She confirmed that they were following the instructions left behind by Nicholas, so the company was not planning to turn tail and run, but continue their business in Trebizond. Q3, I really don't know which 'whore' Astorre is referring to! (NT) -- Denise, 09:26:17 10/06/11 Thu
  • I figured he meant Pagano Doria when he said Nicholas had done the little whore down. (NT) -- celtgirl, 07:05:13 10/07/11 Fri
    • I guess I wanted to stereotype 'whore' for a female, and that didn't make sense! Doria as the whore does fit. (NT) -- Denise, 10:51:45 10/07/11 Fri
• Q4. Modon is the site of the Ciaretta's fire set by Doria's men. I've scanned back through a few chapters but can't seem to think what Godsalc is referring to. Can anyone else? (NT) -- Denise, 09:46:20 10/06/11 Thu
• Q5. I don't know if this in reference to what happened to Nicholas on his first visit to see the Emperor. I just don't know! (NT) -- Denise, 10:05:31 10/06/11 Thu
  • Yes, they are discussing what happened to Nicholas the first time he visited the Emperor. I don't know if my brain just isn't functioning that well, but I don't understand what John is saying about seeing the problem here. (NT) -- celtgirl, 07:14:53 10/07/11 Fri
    • That's what wasn't making sense to me either. What's done is done, Nicholas doesn't seem to be the worse for the interlude with the Emperor, so what's the problem? Maybe it's another case of - don't think too hard about DD's writing? Or you'll drive yourself crazy? (NT) -- Denise, 10:55:37 10/07/11 Fri
      • Yes, that's probably the best route to go here, Denise. :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:38:39 10/07/11 Fri

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• In this chapter, I think we really see how childish Catherine can be. Her husband, the little weasel, is injured and no doubt in pain, but she must be physically gratified and to h#ll with him. Beware of 13 year old nymphomaniacs! I suppose Doria is paying for his own creation! (NT) -- Denise, 17:22:01 10/03/11 Mon
  • BTW I love the picture, Cindy, especially since I'm a sucker for sunsets. (NT) -- Denise, 20:47:54 10/03/11 Mon
    • That photo is really striking! Can only imagine how it must have felt to actually witness it. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:58:29 10/04/11 Tue
• Catherine's personality (or immaturity) really shows through here..she's all over the place, but I think it hits her square that her husband is not all she hoped he would be and that she's not going to get her girlish dreams to come true with him. Those dreams being the demise of Nicholas, her mother losing interest in Nicholas and having all the jewels, dresses and status she believes she deserves. At least she got the dog! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 17:45:17 10/04/11 Tue
• I thought that for a thirteen year old she showed some real smarts in this chapter too- she looked at his books and knew he wasn't making a profit, she already is showing that she has a very astute business mind. (NT) -- celtgirl, 19:54:55 10/04/11 Tue

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• Q1) It seems the case to me. Violante is in the midst of everything and can see first hand the benefit of Nicholas. I think the time she was on board their ship she was evaluating him on behalf of her husband. And really hasn't Genoa been the primary supplier to Trebizond, so this chance to undermine them and use Nicholas to do it makes sense from their point of view. (NT) -- Lil, 18:25:38 10/02/11 Sun
• I agree with Lil. I think they have bigger plans for Nicholas, though, than merely taking over as chief traders with Trebizond. (NT) -- Carla, 19:20:39 10/02/11 Sun
• The clock being described reminds me of the peacock clock in the Hermitage museum in St. Petersburg. >>>>> -- Denise, 19:21:50 10/02/11 Sun
  • Isn't that amazing. We visited the Hermitage but can't honestly say I remember seeing this. Sleep deprivation I guess. (NT) -- Elaine, 03:51:08 10/03/11 Mon
    • The Hermitage is enormous and I know we only saw a small percentage of the exhibits. You probably didn't view that gallery. (NT) -- Denise, 20:45:11 10/03/11 Mon
• Your theory sounds good. Nicholas is too valuable an asset to have outside one's sphere of control. I think Violante is congratulating herself for catching a juicy bit of prey in her spider's web. (NT) -- Denise, 19:27:56 10/02/11 Sun
• Violante is certainly doing her job. Her marriage to Zeno was meant to be a diplomatic arrangement to unite two parts of the world for trade. Absolutely - the Venetians are there to prevent or destroy any participation from Genoa. It will serve the Venetians well to have access to that enormous trade route that circumnavigates the Black Sea, to have ample access to the Silk Road, and to have guaranteed safe passage in the eastern Mediterranean. Violante, much like TGWTWL, is able to detect all of Nicholas' capabilities; if he's on her side, she benefits greatly on more than one level. (NT) -- Elaine, 03:59:25 10/03/11 Mon
  • OK, what's TGWTWL?? I'm coming up with 'the good witch that weighs less'! Honestly, can't think what that acronym means. (NT) -- Denise, 09:24:29 10/03/11 Mon
    • The Greek With the Wooden Leg. (NT) -- celtgirl, 10:00:20 10/03/11 Mon
      • Oh crap, of course! (NT) -- Denise, 11:11:04 10/03/11 Mon
        • Oops, sorry. (NT) -- Elaine, 12:09:33 10/03/11 Mon

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• Q1. I noticed that line from Sara Khatun as well and wondered to whom she was referring. Doria was pleased to think Nicholas had slept with Alexios against his wedding vows, but I don't think he had the means to plan it. Alexios was perhaps the warm-up act for the Emperor, but Alexios is young and beautiful and the Emperor probably wouldn't want the comparison. I have know understanding of Violante's scheming mind though what she would have to gain from this interaction is beyond me. So, as you can see, I have no idea! (NT) -- Denise, 10:20:48 10/02/11 Sun
• Q2. Again, I'm pretty clueless as the thinking behind Sara Khatun's actions, though I can guess that she finds Nicholas intelligent and highly motivated, and better an ally than an enemy. Her interest in Nicholas probably includes Astorre's army that again is better to have 'for' rather than 'against' her son and his ambitions. (NT) -- Denise, 10:26:10 10/02/11 Sun
• Q1) If Iskender is the Emperor, then maybe its the Emperor's plans? I'm not sure who she's referring to, really, but that's a guess. Maybe he's trying to manipulate Nicholas's relationship with the Medici or his fighting men or something else. Or maybe I'm completely off base! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 12:34:49 10/02/11 Sun
• Q2) I think her reasons are politically driven. To help her son, to help Violante, to ruin others. I am honestly struggling to keep the names/cities straight in this book. So many discussions of this person or that person and their political desires, and I'm lost. I'm trying to grasp it, but not doing so hot. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 12:37:47 10/02/11 Sun
• The whole scene with the injured Doria and Catherine was just awful. I agree that they both need to be poked with something sharp in this chapter! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 12:39:07 10/02/11 Sun
• Holy cow, Cindy, these are tough questions. (q1) This one's really giving me a headache. Sara and N were discussing the amalgam of cultures in the region, and how disparate religions can exist side by side, even to the point of intermingling. Is Sara Khatun talking in code here, suggesting that maybe the Emperor David has divided loyalties, that he'd rather side with the Christians (Greeks) than with the Muslims (most of Uzum Hasan's territory)? I only say this because Iksender is Greek for Alexander. And could she be suggesting that David definitely *wanted* N to be his lover rather than just someone he could manipulate (which might have had even more impact on his loyalties right before the war with the Ottomans)? Okay, it's too far-fetched and out there - forget about it. (NT) -- Elaine, 17:57:34 10/02/11 Sun
  • I'm trying to get my own questions answered to things I'm still not sure about after several reads. :) And though it almost feels like heresy to say it, there are sometimes things in Dunnett that are a little too obscure, though maybe she meant for the readers to make of it what they would. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 18:33:29 10/02/11 Sun
    • Must agree. She makes me *want* to solve the puzzle, but I also don't want to waste too much time sorting through some of her details. And yet it's the details tell the full story. Is a puzzlement! (NT) -- Elaine, 03:48:36 10/03/11 Mon
• (q2) Sheesh, I don't know. She's as opaque and unrevealing as Violante. When I first read this book, I thought it was because Violante took a liking to N, so Sara Khatun was persuaded to go in that same direction. Now I'm not so sure it's that simple. Clearly both women are very strong and very intelligent; if anybody is able to see Nicholas' true gifts, it's these two ladies. Maybe they see him as someone too formidable to be an enemy, so they'd rather make him their friend. (NT) -- Elaine, 17:58:38 10/02/11 Sun

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• I was going to suggest the same plan. Sure, I'll take a few chapters. Maybe sooner rather than later ones since MIL is coming in a few weeks. (NT) -- Denise, 10:07:10 10/01/11 Sat
  • Denise, do you want to take 31- 33? That will be the next three after Cindy's finished with this week. (NT) -- Lil, 14:53:32 10/01/11 Sat
    • Sure. No guarantee on the quality, but I'll put something together. I'm a bit distracted too, though not really for any good excuse. (NT) -- Denise, 16:33:14 10/01/11 Sat
• I'll post the rest of my chapters tomorrow for this week and I don't mind taking another three, just can it be in the last week? (NT) -- celtgirl (), 11:41:38 10/01/11 Sat
  • Do you want the last three chapters? That would be 40 - 42. That will give you more time with your own book. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 14:54:29 10/01/11 Sat
    • That's great, Nalana. I had forgotten how obsessional the work on a book is at this stage of the game. I truly cannot seem to give my focus to much else. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 15:19:28 10/01/11 Sat
• I'll be glad to help. Just give me an assignment. (NT) -- Elaine, 17:00:10 10/01/11 Sat
  • Thanks, Elaine! Can you take 34 - 36? (NT) -- Lil, 07:52:55 10/02/11 Sun
    • That sounds good - thanks, Nalana. (NT) -- Elaine, 15:00:08 10/02/11 Sun
• I'll take 37 - 39. So it will be Denise, Elaine, myself and Cindy doing 3 chapters each for the next couple of weeks. You can post them all at once or individually...it all works for me! (NT) -- Lil, 07:55:10 10/02/11 Sun

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• q2) Each of these guys has a special talent or skill, even though they can also be weak links at times. Nicholas needs their skills to accomplish his goals. But they are not as bright or strong-willed as Nicholas; they can be manipulated to an extent. Not necessarily to the extent that Obi Wan Kenobi could influence those troopers ("These aren't the droids you're looking for...") but Nicholas is able to divert their attention from time to time. That's one of his gifts, keeping people off-guard when he needs it. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:09:34 09/29/11 Thu
  • I agree that the other fellows have unique skills, and different approaches to problems that can be a great asset, and sometimes a hindrance. Nicholas is so young, and his experiences are limited, so the whole (all men) is greater than the sum. (NT) -- Denise, 15:04:35 09/30/11 Fri
• Q2) I sometimes have no idea why he puts up with them! But he must find some value in each of them and knows that they can serve him and the company and their future plans. It's definitely got to be a test of his patience or mental capacity sometimes though. I think Julius rubs me the wrong way almost every interaction so far in this book. (NT) -- Lil, 12:49:43 09/30/11 Fri
• Q1. No one has answered Q1 and maybe it's because we don't know what she's up to. It makes me think too hard to try to understand her, and I'm not up to that challenge at the moment - well, really never, but that's beside the point. (NT) -- Denise, 15:53:45 09/30/11 Fri
  • Denise, I'm feeling the same way - especially when it comes to Violante. :-) She speaks in such an indirect way, I sometimes have a hard time deciphering her intentions. (NT) -- Lil, 07:50:02 10/01/11 Sat

• And rightly so!!! Congrats on getting close to completion!! (NT) -- PeggyB, 13:17:14 09/27/11 Tue
• No worries, woman, we're all clearly crazy busy these days. (NT) -- CarlaDM, 19:42:51 09/27/11 Tue
• Not to worry! We are all flexible. Last week and this week are so full for me, and today I seem to have caught a little virus. To be perfectly honest, I'm happy to have a little interruption just to catch up with life! (NT) -- Elaine, 09:14:46 09/28/11 Wed
• I'm home and caught up on my re-read but haven't had time to post. I'll try later! (NT) -- Denise, 14:32:04 09/28/11 Wed

Ruins of Saint Bertin, St. Omer

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• Please forgive my recent lack of participation. Events and activities have ramped up to a really uncomfortable level, but promise to return soon. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:41:33 09/26/11 Mon
  • No worries, Elaine. I obviously know the feeling since I just finished the week that spiraled out of control. Hope things calm down for you soon! (NT) -- Lil, 16:12:37 09/26/11 Mon
• 1. I'm not sure what Jordan means by this; perhaps he has some idea that there was something between Nicholas and Katelina and knows the damage that a woman scorned can do. (NT) -- Carla, 19:39:24 09/27/11 Tue
• 2. I do, actually. She found herself a young noblewoman pregnant by a man her family would never let her marry and so she made an impulsive decision designed to hurt the man she felt used her and with whom things ended badly. She's now paying a very heavy price in many ways and in her eyes it must seem as if Nicholas has gotten off very lightly. (NT) -- Carla, 19:41:44 09/27/11 Tue

Chain of the Order of the Golden Fleece

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• Q1. Nicholas is generally considered to be adept at dealing with people and getting his own, so I did wonder if his men thought he could have avoided this situation if he really wanted to; I do think they're a fairly open-minded, cosmopolitan lot (with exceptions) and aren't too bothered. (NT) -- Carla, 15:52:27 09/25/11 Sun
• Q2. I think Nicholas finds it hard to take Julius seriously sometimes, just as the reverse is true. Of course, Julius while not without many fine qualities, can also be more than a bit of an idiot at times, so I can see why Nicholas has trouble holding back. (NT) -- Carla, 15:53:40 09/25/11 Sun
• Q3. This whole episode really ticked me off, to be honest. It's not as if Nicholas set out to get Katerina pregnant and marry her off to his own father! They do still think of/see him as an immature boy who makes rash decisions and I think that plays into their choice here. (NT) -- Carla, 15:55:07 09/25/11 Sun
  • I was really angry too. It seems they either think he's an evil genius or an immature idiot. I think they easily forget why they have followed him this far. (NT) -- Lil, 16:09:17 09/26/11 Mon
    • Yes. It's kind of frustrating to see bickering and backbiting when these guys tag along of their own free will. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:46:23 09/27/11 Tue

Pearl Diadem

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• 1) Nicholas can be canny and ruthless. If he is unable to change a situation, he is sometimes willing to do whatever is necessary, just like Lymond. Trebizond may have been part of the Eastern Roman Empire, but it was situated in the heart of Persian culture, where some unusual (by our modern standards) proclivities were quite acceptable. (2) Nicholas is adept at understanding others thoroughly; he's a quick study. Having been such a keen observer all his life definitely puts him at the advantage, imo. (3) Didn't trust Violante, was a little concerned about just what she was after. And yet there are things about her I like, too. She can really be a puzzling character until you fully understand her motives. (4) I believe stress brought on a flare-up of the swamp fever. Extreme stress and some self-recrimination following his private encounter with the Emperor. (NT) -- Elaine, 12:43:44 09/20/11 Tue
  • Q2. I agree with your assessment of Nicholas. He's played many roles in his short life, and will play many more with an uncanny ability to cut to the chase and do what is necessary to meet the end goal. (NT) -- Denise, 14:12:10 09/20/11 Tue
  • Sorry, E. I was rather repetitive in my answer below, but hadn't read your reply until afterwards. My brain is in slow-motion today, I think. (NT) -- celtgirl, 15:14:57 09/20/11 Tue
    • Great minds and all that. Glad you're back! Your brain is hardly in slow motion - you just need to catch up with yourself again after having such a wonderful time. Go gently and rest up. (NT) -- Elaine, 16:01:05 09/20/11 Tue
• Please come inside for a little clarification. >>> -- Elaine, 12:55:19 09/20/11 Tue
  • >>> -- Lil, 13:44:32 09/20/11 Tue
    • >>> -- Denise, 14:09:04 09/20/11 Tue
      • >>> -- Elaine, 14:55:46 09/20/11 Tue
        • >>> -- Denise, 11:45:40 09/22/11 Thu
• Q1. This was one of those things that I wasn't sure about on the first read, but then on successive reads I realized that he comes down with marsh fever directly after- usually he comes down with that under extreme stress, so then I figured yes, he had indeed slept with the Emperor and later had it confirmed on the Claes forum. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:48:54 09/20/11 Tue
• Q2. Yes, I think it does. I don't think Doria necessarily has the skills to put himself into another man's mind, and to assess from that viewpoint. Nicholas is an expert at viewing both sides of the board and guessing at the moves, though occasionally he is surprised. Q3. She is meant to be very opaque at this point in the story, though things become clearer later on. I enjoyed her because she was a powerbroker and thus part of the game. Q4. Yes, he's genuninely sick, I don't think Tobie would affirm that he was, if he wasn't. I believe the stress brought it on, but it was genuine nevertheless. (NT) -- celtgirl, 17:09:00 09/20/11 Tue
• Nothing earth-shattering to add, but I did flip back and forth in my mind as to whether or not Nicholas and The Emperor had had sex throughout the book. Some phrases made me sure they had, others made me sure they hadn't! I will bow to the superior knowledge and insights of the folk at the Claes' forum. Marsh/swamp fever is the term at the time for what we call malaria now, I believe, so reoccurrence is part of the illness, and certainly the stress of the voyage topped off the meetings at the palace would be enough to make him ill. Violante is definitely a complex character and I'm no more sure of her motives than I am of Nicholas' at times. (NT) -- Carla, 15:56:16 09/22/11 Thu
  • Brilliant summary! (NT) -- Elaine, 05:36:21 09/24/11 Sat

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• Q1) I think I'm probably missing something here...because I have no idea how to answer your question! :-) I think that I thought the 5 times was in reference to 5 interactions with Doria, but I have no idea really. However, I think that Nicholas doesn't kill outright because he knows there are other ways to skin a cat, so to speak. He can do harm without death. Unfortunately, this leaves a lot of people running around who want revenge against him. So do you kill to just get the person out of the way forever but carry that guilt/pain/internal scar or do you do some other harm and watch your back? (NT) -- Lil, 08:42:50 09/17/11 Sat
• I'm almost caught up to this point! I recall reading a listing (?) of all the people that Nicholas ruined, and some died, though I don't think iIcholas was directly responsible (as in, knife in hand). I can't remember more though! (NT) -- Denise, 11:46:34 09/17/11 Sat
  • Of course, I meant Nicholas - serves me right for not checking my edit! (NT) -- Denise, 12:29:32 09/17/11 Sat
  • This sounds familiar, Denise....maybe we need to revisit that list? :-) (NT) -- Lil, 12:47:21 09/17/11 Sat
    • On a quick review, I noticed that it is mentioned that Nicholas has killed 5 people and ruined one, but no names are given. Perhaps this list we remember is in the first book? (NT) -- Denise, 17:28:41 09/17/11 Sat
      • Probably. And since I can barely remember what I ate for breakfast, I can't remember specific details that happened in the last book. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 17:31:32 09/17/11 Sat
        • Niccolo Rising - end of Ch. 40, beginning of Ch. 41. Jaak de Fleury and his wife, Esota and their son (?), Alan de St. Pol (uncle to Simon Kilmirren, who died from a faulty cannon - the one that took a spill in Bruges) and maybe Felix's death also? Nicholas is responsible for the ruination of Thibault de Fleury and also Jordan de Riberac fleeing his homeland. Am I getting warm, Elaine??? (NT) -- Denise, 18:05:53 09/17/11 Sat
          • Hot as blazes! To be honest, this was a trick question because I've only been able to come up with 4 victims since I first read the series. Am guessing Nicholas feels responsible for Felix's death. Maybe when Cindy has a chance, she'll weigh in. Technically, it would seem that Nicholas ruined the lives of 2. (NT) -- Elaine, 21:05:32 09/17/11 Sat
• I will also admit to being brain dead and unable to list the 5 victims at the moment. Sometimes I think there is a fate worse than death, and Nicholas seems to deliver that more often -- the financial ruin he has wrecked on those who sought to harm him in one way or another, for instance. I do think Nicholas has remarkable control and restraint, to not smash Doria in the face, here, though. I can only imagine the mess Julius would have created if he had been there. (NT) -- Carla, 18:00:45 09/17/11 Sat
  • Julius - keep your eyes on Julius. (NT) -- Elaine, 21:06:40 09/17/11 Sat
• OT - I'm heading out camping for a little over a week, so I'll be absent again from the discussion. At least I should have time to read so I won't fall behind! (NT) -- Denise, 09:19:16 09/18/11 Sun
  • Where are you headed, Denise? Hope you have good fishing. (NT) -- Elaine, 11:14:54 09/18/11 Sun
    • We debated about heading north to some of our favourite fishing holes, but they're not looking too good right now - too much algal growth over the summer. I think our revised plans are to head to northern Idaho for biking and perhaps NW to wine country in south-central BC. At least the weather looks nice, unlike the coast where rain is forecast most days. I took my mom to the airport this morning, she's on an Alaskan cruise leaving from Vancouver. Forecast looks very wet! Oh well, she's with her senior's club members so they'll have fun anyway. (NT) -- Denise, 12:46:39 09/18/11 Sun

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• I kind of think that in a way she's right, he wants to still believe in Simon somehow, but I don't think he's anywhere near naive enough to think that family means him no harm, not at this point. (NT) -- cg, 19:12:55 09/14/11 Wed
• 2. Marian's paleness could be a combination of many things -- stress over Catherine, running the business without Nicholas there and worrying over what may be happening with him; of course there are also the possibilities of illness and pregnancy (I'm not sure on that last one, though, as Nicholas may have been gone too long at this point for her not to be obviously pregnant). (NT) -- Carla, 06:10:13 09/15/11 Thu
• Q1) this struck me as strange, as she seems to not see his growth. But part of what she says is also true. Simon seems to be a weakness for Nicholas. There may be a perception issue for her since she has known him for so long and loved him in different ways. Q2) I think Catherine is just another stress loaded on all she's already dealing with. Carla covers the list pretty well, although I hadn't thought of illness or pregnancy. Is she of an age to still get pregnant (I get lost on people's ages)? (NT) -- Lil, 14:40:53 09/15/11 Thu
  • I think she's about 40 or 41 at this point. (NT) -- Elaine, 16:03:14 09/15/11 Thu
    • Thanks! I always think Nicholas is older than he is, so wasn't sure if I was doing the same with her. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 19:56:22 09/15/11 Thu

Last edited by author: Mon September 12, 2011 17:55:49   Edited 2 times.
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• Am I the only one who didn't go to TIFF? ;-) (NT) -- Elaine, 13:58:23 09/12/11 Mon
• Q1. I think people (not just Nicholas and Julius) often take on guilt for things which are completely out of their control. There is no possible way they could have known about Catherine and Doria -- they, along with her mother -- believed she was safely tucked away elsewhere. Doria was very clever in hiding Catherine until it was too late, aided by a young girl who felt she was getting "revenge" on those who'd, in her view, done something terrible to her in the past. (NT) -- Carla, 05:48:38 09/13/11 Tue
• Q2. IMHO, the voice of a parent who loves and accepts him coupled with the voice of self-love. Nicholas may think highly of himself in certain respects, but in others I don't think he likes himself very much and I think all of his actions are a quest for acknowledgment (in some form or another) from his father and grandfather. (NT) -- Carla, 05:50:25 09/13/11 Tue
• Q1) I think that they both feel a sense of obligation toward Marian that bleeds over to Catherine. But I am so impressed at how Nicholas deals with things overall. Breaking into the ship was a bit much, but definitely in character, but the fact that he let her stay and didn't drag her off like Julius would have was great. She'll be more open to action later if it comes to that. (NT) -- Lil, 06:22:50 09/13/11 Tue
• Q2) This is a great question, Elaine. I would imagine, as Carla said, it's some sort of parental figure, possibly the father he's needed but never had or the mother he lost. There is a reason he rebels and keeps secrets from his own men, and I'm guessing partly its a natural desire to protect himself because he is missing that basic love, unconditional, that he should have had. (NT) -- Lil, 06:31:00 09/13/11 Tue
• Oh yay, you guys are still around! Hope you've been having a wonderful time. (NT) -- Elaine, 13:55:28 09/13/11 Tue
  • Hi Elaine! I've been in Ontario, but not at TIFF. We attended a wedding on the long weekend in the Detroit area, and have since been visiting with family and friends. I'm almost caught up with my re-read - somewhere in Chapter 14 I think, then I'll be able to join the discussions again. (NT) -- Denise, 08:44:47 09/14/11 Wed

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• Q1. Well, he plans to discard her after she has served his purposes, so he isn't training a wife for a long future. She is really just a plaything that serves as a useful carrot/pawn. Q2. Yes, I think she had a bit of a crush on Nicholas and was appalled that he married her mother- all the girls had a bit of a crush on Nicholas. Q3. I think so that we understand how she got pulled into this- it's clear that in her thinking she is still very much a little girl. She not terribly sympathetic, but we see where it's easy for Doria to have led her down the garden path. Q4. Nicholas has had a tough upbringing, he's been left to his own devices for a long time, I imagine the fact that he's a genius came as a bit of a shock to him as well, so we see him working that out. The average lifespan was short-ish then, so they couldn't have the protracted adolescence we get to enjoy now. I always figure he's a genius, and the rules don't apply to genius in the way they do for the rest of mankind. (NT) -- celtgirl, 19:33:34 09/07/11 Wed
  • Great insight on #4! (NT) -- Lil, 08:26:01 09/09/11 Fri
• Q1) Cindy always seems to say it best. I agree - he has no future plans with Catherine so her willfulness is not now and never will be his problem. He simply regards her as collateral damage. (Q2) Oh yes, I think both daughters had at least a passing fancy in Nicholas. You can see where Catherine were be horrified at the thought of a dyer's apprentice becoming her step-father. That must feel like a slap in her face. (Q4) Again, Cindy has said it so well. N grew up the hard way. That tends to age a person pretty fast. Besides possessing a wonderful brain, he has the benefit of street smarts, and clearly he is brilliant at figuring out other people and their motives. (NT) -- Elaine, 10:44:08 09/08/11 Thu
• Love that picture, Carla, wow. Definitely a place I'd love to visit. (NT) -- Elaine, 10:45:23 09/08/11 Thu
• 2) I think Nicholas was the "hot pool boy" of the Charetty business. The girls had crushes, but they knew they'd go no wear. Seeing their mother marry him, must have been a shock. Especially for Catherine who seems very much interested in the status and monetary gifts that Doria can provide her. (NT) -- Lil, 08:23:57 09/09/11 Fri

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• Q1. I think that's a good assessment of what Tobie is doing, though sometimes I think he just likes to see how Nicholas' thinking process works. Q2. I think Tobie has a grudging respect and fondness for Nicholas. He understands him better than most, and then sometimes not at all. Q3. Loppe always knows before anyone else does. There is a very close bond there that the other characters don't see just yet. I think he confided in Tobie because he trusts him, and often uses Tobie as a sounding board, as he is making decisions. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:13:42 09/07/11 Wed
• Q4. I think Gregorio feels partly responsible, like he ought to have known something was not right. I think Gregorio has a feeling this marriage is not a good one. Q5. Julius is the most outraged because he knows Catherine, and has since she was a baby. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:15:21 09/07/11 Wed
• Q2 & Q3) I have really struggled to get a grasp as to just how Tobie feels about Nicholas. I've concluded that Tobie wants to despise Nicholas but simply cannot do it. There is something about Nicholas that appeals to Tobie, but there are also plenty of things about N that upset Tobie. Loppe and Tobie are the two people Nicholas trusts most at this time. Probably Loppe more than Tobie in fact. As Cindy said, there is a bond between N and Loppe that is probably only felt but not fully understood yet. (NT) -- Elaine, 10:36:39 09/08/11 Thu

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• Q1. By taking the knife with Doria's name on it Nicholas is making a clear statement that he will return that knife to Doria, and it's not likely to be in a pleasant manner. Q2. They are playing a game of testosterone here, at least that's my take, and there's no way a man is going to allow another man to pay for his weapon. They are making their territorial lines clear. (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:35:41 09/06/11 Tue
• Q3. I think Doria suspected there might be an armed troop on the ship, the fire served to flush out whatever secrets his competition was harbouring. Q4. He wanted to delay them, and the fire also provided cover for his ship to slip away unnoticed. Q5. He's worried that they won't be able to get the ship seaworthy quick enough for Nicholas, and perhaps he realizes this game is far more serious than it appeared at first. (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:14:16 09/06/11 Tue

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• test message (NT) -- PeggyB, 06:32:28 09/05/11 Mon
• test (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:28:09 09/05/11 Mon
• Anyone having difficulty posting on this page? E notified me of a problem and I was able to duplicate it. (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:36:03 09/05/11 Mon
• Testing, testing... (NT) -- Elaine, 08:04:07 09/05/11 Mon
• 1) Nicholas is incredibly shrewd. He doesn't correct things because he has learned to rely on misinformation and misunderstanding to serve his purposes at a later date (although misunderstandings have certainly gotten him into some difficult situations). He probably would have been an outstanding card player. (NT) -- PeggyB (), 08:09:37 09/05/11 Mon
  • Apparently, Voy doesn't like the word p-o-k-e-r. Mystery solved? (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:13:19 09/05/11 Mon
    • Thanks so much, Peggy. Sorry to have bothered you with this on a holiday! (NT) -- Elaine, 08:37:26 09/05/11 Mon
      • Not a problem, I 'm just glad to have figured it out. (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:41:12 09/05/11 Mon
• 1) Nicholas is incredibly shrewd. He doesn't correct things because he has learned to rely on misinformation and misunderstanding to serve his purposes at a later date (although misunderstandings have certainly gotten him into some difficult situations). He probably would have been an outstanding card player! (2) As long as Doria spoils her, Caterina will remain loyal to him. When I first read this book, I got the feeling their relationship was sort of like a perverse big brother/little sister thing, but it's simply bribery to keep her from running to Nicholas for rescue. (NT) -- PeggyB posting for Elaine, 08:14:25 09/05/11 Mon
• 1) I agree with Elaine about #1. I think Nicholas lets people come to their own conclusions without his help hoping they'll move left while he moves right, so to speak. 2) Doria is one good bad guy. He's playing on Caterina's hurt feelings over Nicholas and her mother's marriage and he's good at it. He knows keeping her sweet on him keeps an advantage over Nicholas and his men, who also feel a loyalty to Marian and to Caterina's protection. She's a willing hostage in their game, even though she doesn't know it. (NT) -- Lil, 08:34:51 09/05/11 Mon