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• BTW, this conversation stemmed from getting them to read 'The Eight'. Most of them hated it, said it was too heavy, too many ideas, too dense, too everything. I told them I'm not picking books anymore, because they all hated 'Game of Kings' only one or two liked 'The Stolen Child' and only one person liked 'The Eight'. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 08:50:21 02/24/09 Tue
• Sounds like you have a tough crowd! An interesting story helps if the writing is mediocre. I found the book about Shurik and the seige of Leningrad to be so-so as far as the writing was concerned but I was interested in the subject matter, so that kept me reading. Some books are plainly a waste of time to read! I love to read beautiful prose. I read it in my head and savour the words and the elaborate pictures that are drawn. Your writing is beautiful, Cindy. I love the flow of the words and the lyrical feel to it. It's very special, and I find there are very few authors who have the skill to do this. So to answer your question, sometimes I can overlook poorer quality writing, but a well written piece is greatly preferred and appreciated. (NT) -- Denise, 10:06:16 02/24/09 Tue
  • Aw, thank you Denise. I really do take time (as you all well know) with my work, and think about how I'm saying things. I want to also, occasionally, give people sentences they can linger over- because that's something I love in books myself. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:52:17 02/24/09 Tue
    • It is sooo very worth it to take that time. Words are to be savoured, not just a functional form of communication. (NT) -- Denise, 16:46:14 02/24/09 Tue
• I am not sure how to answer this, as I wouldn't consider myself an expert. I haven't read much of the great works of the past, so I only have my own indulgences to gage from. I imagine that there could be a lot of reasons why people aren't as concerned about great writing - they are looking for an escape and as long as the story unfolds nicely or has a good bit of suspense, they get past any negatives on the writing because it gives them what they want/need. I think that people don't want to have to work for the story - they just want to be a passive participant in the exchange with the author (as they do with TV). It sounds like your in a group of people who aren't completely interested in reading for the details, but for how the overall story goes. I imagine its similar to this>> -- Lil, 11:42:02 02/24/09 Tue
  • It doesn't need to be a classic, or even a heavy read- for instance I think the Harry Potter books were very well written- though I suppose they are well on their way to becoming children's classics. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 11:55:00 02/24/09 Tue
  • Lil, that funny. I new YA author (Barrie Summy) says her parents made her read a 'meat and potatoes" book for every "desert" book. She grew up wanting to write "desert" books. I don't mind those- they just leave no impression on me. (NT) -- susiej, 12:25:38 02/24/09 Tue
• Hmmm, for me the term "good writing" is difficult to describe, and almost a loaded term. (went WAY too long, come inside if you like ) >>>>>> -- PeggyB, 12:01:02 02/24/09 Tue
  • Sometimes the way I judge is whether it's something I would read again, to simply enjoy the prose and the story itself over. I thought the first 'Twilight' book was well done, wasn't nuts about the second>>> -- celtgirl, 12:11:01 02/24/09 Tue
    • Meant to add that I certainly think children's books are included- some are extremely well done. I still read the 'Emily' books by L.M. Montgomery, because even as an adult they are satisfying. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:15:16 02/24/09 Tue
    • I don't think anyone here would take offense, Cindy, sorry if I implied that. I just think it is an interesting question, what is the definition of "good writing?" Is it as they say of p*rnogrphy...you know it when you see it? *g* >>>>>>>>>> -- PeggyB, 12:23:35 02/24/09 Tue
      • I've never managed to get Pat past the mid-point of 'Queen's Play' despite much bribing and cajoling on my part...so good luck with that!>>>> -- celtgirl (), 12:25:00 02/24/09 Tue
        • I've never heard a male opinion on LC, so I thought it would be interesting. Also, the reaction to LC might be somewhat revealing of what a person's character.....I was very surprised to learn that Morgan hates Dougal .... I still find that very interesting and occasionally ponder what that says about Morgan. *g* (NT) -- PeggyB, 12:30:26 02/24/09 Tue
          • I'm not sure a man can understand Dougal's um, finer qualities. :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:36:04 02/24/09 Tue
            • LOL!!! To be honest, I wonder if it's "jealousy" because he knows how I feel about Dougal. (NT) -- PeggyB, 13:20:45 02/24/09 Tue
        • I understand what you mean about how one can take the rejection of a much loved book personally. When I read a book and become totally engaged, it's as if a part of me is given to that book. When it is rejected by a friend I feel totally put out myself. I know it's silly, but I become defensive and a bit offended. I try not to show it, it really is silly, but I can't help feeling that way. (NT) -- Denise, 16:27:12 02/24/09 Tue
        • My reaction to reading your post was that retreat is sometimes the better part of valor. You might try suggesting a Stephanie Plumb book, as it sounds like it's more their speed! (NT) -- FranS, 18:15:16 02/24/09 Tue
• I also have to begin with a Hmmm. I suppose one's idea of "good writing" is subjective. But for my own experience I cannot get swept away no matter how good the story if the writing is what I consider "bad." The test for me (and very few modern authors have passed this with a 100) is whether I ever begin to skim. If you want my breakdown >>>> -- susiej, 12:23:23 02/24/09 Tue
  • I have to confess, that I have on occasion "skimmed" in DD's books. When she puts in foreign phrases that I can't possibly translate, and some of the political stuff I occasionally get bogged in. But I've come to trust her, she always makes sure the reader "gets" the important stuff. I recently described reading DD as like doing yoga, you can get the basics, or, for those who are capable, she puts much more in there. And, like yoga, you may not be able to get to those deeper levels until you have lots of practice under your belt! (NT) -- PeggyB, 12:28:08 02/24/09 Tue
    • Well, I think as many of you know, I had to try 'Game of Kings' a few times before my inner ear adjusted. I just knew I had to not worry about all the phrases and poetry the first time round, or I'd get bogged down. I get a little more understanding with each read. Also though I find I have to 'cleanse my palate' after a DD read, with something much simpler. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:30:03 02/24/09 Tue
      • I think I'd be surprised, and very intimidated, to meet someone who "got" LC on the first reading! GofK would definitely be on my list of things to have on a desert island. (NT) -- PeggyB, 14:04:15 02/24/09 Tue
        • Speaking of desert islands - someone posted this site a long time ago and I printed it off. I refers to which book you re-read most often, influenced you, is a favourite as well as the book you would take to a desert island. It's bang-on in my opinion!>>>>>> -- Denise, 16:43:48 02/24/09 Tue
          • Thanks for this link ! I printed it off to give to a friend who teases me about my obcession with everything Scottish. (NT) -- FranS, 18:28:22 02/24/09 Tue
          • "this scumbag of a protagonist" bwahahaha!!!!! This is terrific, Denise. One of the hardest questions I have to answer is when someone, seeing me with a volume the LC, asks me "What's that book about?" I'm curious how the rest of you answer that question? (NT) -- PeggyB, 19:36:34 02/24/09 Tue
      • I had to skim through the political stuff and foreign phrases in my first read of LC or I became distracted and lost the continuity of the story. I love character-driven books, so the other stuff is window dressing, interesting and all, but not always essential to my enjoyment of a book. (NT) -- Denise, 16:33:10 02/24/09 Tue
• To be honest, this type of reaction is one of the reasons I'm very reluctant to recommend books to anybody -- I really don't want to hear what I love dissed, so I know where you're coming from on that one. Like most who've posted, I think what constitutes good writing really varies; it doesn't have to be a complex, intricate style like DD's or a sparse one like Ian Rankin's, it should fit the story and the author's comfort level. Personally, I love prose with a lyrical twist and authors who paint a picture that hits all the senses without being overblown (DG does a beautiful job of this in Outlander in particular). -- Carla, 16:11:32 02/24/09 Tue
  • What gets me in book club is there's only a few of us who are willing to pick books, but it's the other women who tear all the choices apart. So I think we need to put them on the spot and say 'you pick something.' (NT) -- celtgirl (), 16:23:02 02/24/09 Tue
    • You bet - turn about is fair play. It's their turn now. (NT) -- E, 17:07:29 02/24/09 Tue
    • People like that drive me nuts -- more than willing to crap all over what everybody else picks/how they're doing something etc., but never willing to step up themselves. At the beginning of the "season" we ask all the women in our book club to submit two or three books with a brief synopsis (usually the cover copy) then we all vote for our top six, the six books with the most votes are the ones we read. That way everybody has a hand in the choices. And really, even if they don't like a book be grown up about it and don't just rip it apart. (NT) -- Carla, 18:50:59 02/24/09 Tue
• Skillful writing absolutely counts for me and without it, I may not last long enough to get interested in the story. It's jarring to me to be reading along and come upon a silly metaphor or repetitious language. I want to be immersed and transported into that world and don't like being kicked out of it. >>>>>>>>> -- FranS, 19:02:41 02/24/09 Tue
• Nothing new to state here really. Books are a very personal thing I guess. Some books are worth discussing and some are not, but how do you choose? You just have to jump in and give a book a try to know whether it's worthwhile or not. Beautiful language is a joy for me to read. I love poetry, so give me all the allusions and allegories you got! Complex plots are fun for me to decode and dissect. Character-driven stories are fascinating if the characters matter to me. Plot-driven stories can be great if the plot is actually going somewhere rather than wandering in circles. But if what I'm reading is poorly written with lots of repetition and rookie sentence structure, or worse, if it's didactic and preachy, I will put it down in favor of something with real meat. I don't have enough time to waste wading through pulp, with which the bookstores tend to overflow these days. (NT) -- E, 20:02:24 02/24/09 Tue
• My quick and dirty answer is that story and character matters most of all. If a story is great and has a character people care about, I believe you can get by with unfortunately average writing skills and still be widely read. A good story, well told is the ultimate reading experience. That does leave a lot of wiggle room for opinion and conjecture, I realize. >>>>> -- Lynne, 05:37:44 02/25/09 Wed
• As much as it saddens me to say it, I fear the woman in your book club may be speaking for society as a whole. But, how did we get to this point? How is it that 'mediocre' or 'servicable' writing has become acceptable? Our language is shrinking, letter writing has been replaced by text messaging, and instant gratification outweighs patience. We do ourselves a disservice by accepting it, and quite frankly, I cannot. If a story is to be told, it needs to be told well. Writing is an art form that requires skill and practice. And time. And though plotting and character development are important elements, they must be built on the foundation of solid writing. (NT) -- Sallie, 07:39:26 02/25/09 Wed
  • I totally agree, Sallie. Especially on the time part. I think what we're seeing on the market place now is many writers' first attempts at writing a book, and it really shows. There is no apprenticeship in writing other than actually working away at your craft, honing, refining and trying to keep on stretching yourself. Many writers are too impatient to do this though, and really don't so much want to write as to 'be published' thinking this validates them more than anything else. (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:28:11 02/25/09 Wed
  • Sallie, I sat at a writers conf. and heard a panel of agent/editors talking about how they pick books and claiming that they can't help it if there has to be a big hook in the first paragraph- that pub. houses have had cameras set up in bookstores and seen buyers pick up a book read a moment and decide whether to put it down or buy it. That's what they claim is the selling point!!! How stupid is that? But its what they claim is driving what gets an agent. People have to be turned on, grossed out or somehow intrigued in the first few sentences- there's no time to develop anything. Or so the claim. Hence the popularity of zippy prologus. Although one editor called prologues "lazy writing." The really crazy thing was she is one of Stephanie Myers editors and all her books begin that way! (NT) -- susiej, 13:03:27 02/25/09 Wed
    • Ok- yea, that was a rant. Thanks, I feel better now. (NT) -- susiej, 13:05:11 02/25/09 Wed
      • I found writer's conferences often left me confused and depressed, Susie, without much idea of whether I'd learned anything other than I was about as likely to succeed in this game as a snowball in a pot of boiling oil. Long ago, when I still had an agent, she told me (about EU) 'I fear this book is too smart for the industry, which may really work against us...' (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:18:13 02/25/09 Wed
        • I think you've hit on the crux of the concern. There always have been, and always will be, writing at all different levels; the concern is how to keep publishers willing to publish the high quality works, when they are, understandably driven by the bottom line. I've been thinking about this and trying to find a way to say it without risking offending someone, but I don't know if that's possible, so I'll say what I think, and hope everyone understands I in no way intend to offend anyone personally, it is just an observation, ok? Come inside >>>>>>>> -- PeggyB, 14:24:45 02/25/09 Wed
          • The book club I belong to>>>> -- celtgirl, 14:44:31 02/25/09 Wed
            • Now that is a sad statement, there at the end of your post. I've been to photography workshops, too, and the presenters are all over the place. Almost none of them are helpful. (NT) -- E, 15:32:58 02/25/09 Wed
          • I do agree with what you say and it's seems that this "sound-bite" mentality of a vast amount of the population is really starting to hit the book world. It is a shame when talented authors with great books are being passed over for some trendy book. It makes me wonder what “classics” today will be remembered…if at all. (NT) -- Lynne, 15:41:35 02/25/09 Wed
            • P.S. Celtgirl, I wanted to add that I think it's great that you write what's in your heart. It takes tons of silent dedication to do that! Please come inside >>>>> -- Lynne, 15:57:16 02/25/09 Wed
              • Lynne>>> -- celtgirl, 18:44:59 02/25/09 Wed
                • I also believe it is not productive writing for the fads…like you say, by the time the book gets written the trend is most probably past. I’ve heard agents say the same thing at conferences. Inside>>>>> -- Lynne, 04:32:13 02/26/09 Thu
          • Our couples bookclub, Book & Cook, meets every other month at each others homes during an evening and includes dinner, based on the book with contributions from each couple. We already knew each other from a small women's club I'm in so we knew we were compatible. Most all of us are readers and one of my friends thought it would be fun to get together, visit, and talk about the books. It's very informal and anyone can suggest a book at the end of a meeting and we discuss it and decide what to read for next time and where we'll meet. The DH has actually read a couple of the books lately! We started it about 5 years ago or so. (NT) -- FranS, 20:49:06 02/25/09 Wed
  • Somehow I'm reminded of a line from The Big Chill, when Michael (the guy who worked for People magazine) said that most people don't want to read an article that takes longer than the average crap. That was from over 20 years ago, when print was still all there was. I heartily believe in books that speak to our better selves, where both our hearts and minds are actively involved in the reading. Schools no longer emphasize good handwriting (with technology booming, it is often regarded as a dying art form akin to using a quill), and I also believe there is not enough emphasis on quality writing. Lately I've read ads and mailers that have spelling or syntax errors. I expect better than that from a high schooler! (NT) -- E, 15:27:11 02/25/09 Wed
    • I am noticing that all over, Elaine- on billboards, in flyers, even in the newspaper for heaven's sake. (NT) -- celtgirl, 15:32:45 02/25/09 Wed
• I posted a Lymond question on the Chessboard. (NT) -- Peggy, 14:05:44 02/25/09 Wed

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• I think a few of us were biting our tongues at that post about Ludo and Joleta, Peggy! (NT) -- E, 07:40:14 02/22/09 Sun
• Congrats on finishing! You had great insight into that Ludo thing. I never saw it coming! Those last couple of chapters were amazing weren't they?! Checkmate is also amazing. I hope you get to it soon. (NT) -- Lil, 09:52:18 02/22/09 Sun
  • Truly, I was just having fun letting my imagination go wild! Too bad Gabriel didn't get kicked in the nuts by a donkey, though *snerk* (NT) -- PeggyB, 13:02:49 02/22/09 Sun
• Yeah, so glad you finally got some 'me' time to finish!! You'll love Checkmate! (NT) -- Denise, 10:43:59 02/22/09 Sun
  • I'm torn what to read next, I put Cape Random on hold at the library, but it's not in yet. If I start Checkmate, I'll have to set it aside for Cape Random, ugh, hate doing that. After seeing the preview for Angels & Demons at the movies today, maybe I'll just reread it for now, decisions decisions (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:49:13 02/22/09 Sun
• A question about the boys >>>>>>> -- PeggyB, 16:39:37 02/22/09 Sun
  • I felt Lymond considered Kuzum more capable of overcoming his early upbringing, especially since Philippa came into the picture while he was still very young. The other boy, probably Lymond's child, knew little other than abuse and was too damaged to be 'normal'. I think the heritage he spoke of was the early upbringing, not the parentage, but maybe I'm wrong. (NT) -- Denise, 17:13:58 02/22/09 Sun
  • I tend to agree with Denise's assessment of why Lymond chose as he did but then seeing the text you mentioned does make me think that Lymond thinks so poorly of himself and his tendencies that a child of his (and perhaps Oonagh too because she was also prone to being unhappy) was a child doomed to a life of sadness. No matter which he chose, Lymond knew he was off to Russia with Guzel- I think it was planned ahead of time-the payment of himself to get the others free. So I think he let Philippa continue with her delusion that Kuzum was Lymond's. (NT) -- susiej (), 11:02:20 02/23/09 Mon
  • Peggy, there is a poignant scene in PinF where Dunnett allows the reader inside Lymond's mind. Referring to his son, we read, 'This child; this unknown son of his blood, was worth one life: his own. From its unmindful genesis, its heritage from birth had been suffering; and evil not to be tolerated: an evil outweighed only by the greater evil of Gabriel's survival.' (Vintage, pg. 232, italics mine) So, I do not think he is referring to his own questionable birth when speaking of heritage, but rather the suffering the child endured. >>>>> -- Sallie, 14:53:59 02/23/09 Mon
    • This was always my thinking too, Sallie. He felt that Kuzum had a better chance at a happy, normal life, whereas Khaireddin was so damaged already. (NT) -- celtgirl, 14:56:11 02/23/09 Mon
      • Fully agree but would add >>> -- E, 15:50:29 02/23/09 Mon
        • Also, DD always said that if one truly wanted to know who Lymond's son is>>> -- celtgirl, 15:54:24 02/23/09 Mon
          • I definitely paid much more attention to those details on my 2nd reading of PiF. (NT) -- E, 16:34:15 02/23/09 Mon
        • Elaine, I agree that Lymond >>>> -- Sallie, 18:17:36 02/23/09 Mon
          • It could never have been easy for him. >>> -- E, 07:03:56 02/24/09 Tue
            • oh, Elaine- a child who suffered solely because of the one man loved him- so poignantly put! Ah, this is why I did not like PinF- just too, too sad. And not just Kharredin, but all the other nameless children in those child brothels and "nightengale cages"- ugh. (NT) -- susiej, 09:46:27 02/24/09 Tue
      • I understand this, but otoh, I find it so hard to accept that a child can be so damaged at such a young age as to be considered unrecoverable. I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing he could have saved both boys. (NT) -- PeggyB, 21:21:54 02/23/09 Mon
    • very nice Sallie- thanks! I am so looking forward to my reread!! I gotta buy those books. (NT) -- susiej, 14:56:38 02/23/09 Mon
    • Checkmate spoiler inside >>> -- Sallie, 14:59:50 02/23/09 Mon
    • Thinking of this still makes my heart ache and my stomach clench. I cannot imagine making such a choice. No wonder Lymond has so many demons tormenting his soul. (NT) -- Carla, 15:14:16 02/23/09 Mon
      • Ever read 'Sophie's Choice'. I didn't know what Sophie's Choice was at first and read it a few months after Larkin was born and I was in the throes of PPD- yeesh, what a horrible mess I was. (NT) -- celtgirl, 15:17:12 02/23/09 Mon
        • I can well imagine, you poor thing! That's still one of my favorite books of all time. (NT) -- E, 15:36:16 02/23/09 Mon
          • It led me to read, 'Darkness Visible' after I'd been diagnosed with PPD, that book was like a slender thread for me during that time. (NT) -- celtgirl, 15:40:46 02/23/09 Mon
        • Never read it, but saw the movie. (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:22:27 02/23/09 Mon
          • It was sure a good movie, but I'd still recommend the book. The prose is quite beautiful at times. (NT) -- E, 16:35:46 02/23/09 Mon
      • He had a whole lot on his emotional plate before Philippa made it her mission to pursue the details of his birth. She unwittingly heaped more burning coals upon his head. (NT) -- E, 15:35:24 02/23/09 Mon
    • Thanks, Sallie. I guess there's more than one way to consider the word "heritage." (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:25:14 02/23/09 Mon

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• Reference by Danny to “Chrysostom” – inside for information regarding this>>> -- Lil, 19:37:40 02/19/09 Thu
• Information about Edward Courtenay inside>>> -- Lil, 19:38:48 02/19/09 Thu
• Nalana, thanks for a great week and for organizing this whole read too. :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 20:10:02 02/19/09 Thu
• Thanks for all your hard work, Nalana, and all the others who provided chapter summaries. I thought this chapter provided a great insight into how Lymond was regarded by his men and Phillipa; although they revere him (in many ways), they all seem to have come together and decided to save him from himself. Knowing him, they have to have known he would not take kindly to their interference and yet despite how cold and nasty he can be, they decided to go ahead. I also found the last line interesting, as I thought we found out earlier on that Guzel had taken up with Vishnevetskey. (NT) -- Carla, 20:16:01 02/19/09 Thu
  • I think Guzel aligned herself with Vishnevetskey to remain in a powerful position. But I think both she and the Tsar were hoping for his return. Neither wanted him to go, each for their own reasons. (NT) -- Lil, 10:26:25 02/20/09 Fri
• This was such a powerful ending to the book. It broke my heart when Lymond smiled and waved in Philippa's direction. Thank you for letting me lurk on this excellent discussion. All the chapter summaries were superb, and Nalana, you did a great job organizing it. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:53:28 02/20/09 Fri
  • Oh, I cried when he waved to her. It was like his last chance to show her some affection and appreciation for what she helped him to do. I can see the image in my head of him hanging off that rope ladder with his hand in the air, smiling. (NT) -- Lil, 10:23:38 02/20/09 Fri
    • I think too, he believes he's saying goodbye to the one woman he'll ever love. There's so much in this one small gesture. (NT) -- celtgirl, 10:33:29 02/20/09 Fri
      • Oh yes, it's just heartbreaking, even now without having re-read the book. (NT) -- Elaine, 12:32:12 02/20/09 Fri
• What was the purpose of sending Lymond the shrouded, embalmed corpse of Graham Reid Mallet? Did I miss something? (NT) -- Lynne, 07:52:49 02/20/09 Fri
  • Lymond's gold is hidden inside the body of Gabriel, I believe. Not sure exactly why Guzel chose the body as a packing crate- I know it's referred to why Guzel did this- something about his lesson being done- I can't find the page right now though. (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:06:25 02/20/09 Fri
    • I think this might be the line you are looking for, Cindy. >>>> -- Sallie, 08:15:49 02/20/09 Fri
      • I am not sure I've ever understood why Guzel chose to do this- thoughts anyone? (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:28:18 02/20/09 Fri
        • My thoughts >>>> -- Sallie, 08:49:26 02/20/09 Fri
          • She wasn't terribly likable, was she? :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:58:57 02/20/09 Fri
          • I think that would be the understatement of the century :) But then, to rule in a place like Russia one had to be beyond likable and able to bear any assault, whether physical or emotional. I think Guzel also knew that it was to her advantage to have Lymond seal himself off from all emotion and attachment to the past, only then would he be totally hers. (NT) -- Carla, 13:48:19 02/20/09 Fri
          • Whew! Talk about tough love....:) (NT) -- Lynne, 17:52:43 02/20/09 Fri
    • Recycling? :-) (NT) -- FranS, 12:37:55 02/21/09 Sat
• Great job Nalana!! And thanks for organizing the discussion, though I didn't participate much with comments, I did follow along. These discussions do wonders in helping me understand some things :-) (NT) -- Marilyn, 09:01:28 02/20/09 Fri
  • Thanks everyone for the nice words. I really enjoy organizing things. I probably should be a party planner! :-) But I couldn't pull it off without all of you volunteering your time to help. After doing this week's summaries, I realize how much work it is to summarize DD, so thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedules to help. (NT) -- Lil, 13:50:27 02/20/09 Fri
• OT, our PAO sends out news clips each day, usually prefaced with interesting facts of the date. Today's involved 15th Century Scotland, inside >>>>>>> -- PeggyB, 09:22:38 02/20/09 Fri
  • What's a PAO? (NT) -- Denise, 15:40:29 02/20/09 Fri
    • Public Affairs Office (or Officer) (NT) -- Lil, 15:43:32 02/20/09 Fri
      • Gold star for Nalana. Here's a bonus blurb from yesterday about a South American volcano that caused famine in Russia in early 17th century >>>>>>>>> -- PeggyB, 16:14:56 02/20/09 Fri
• Something I found interesting - Lymond asked that Gabriel be buried in the earth and most definitely not at sea. Why? Is it because Lymond is a child of the sea and Gabriel's body would 'pollute' his sacred place, or was this in deference to something to do with Gabriel that Lymond knew? (NT) -- Denise, 10:11:04 02/20/09 Fri
  • I think you're right Denise. Both Oonagh and Kharredin were symbolized by the sea, so I think he doesn't want the man who ruined them to be near them in Lymond's mind, If this is a test dredging up Lymond's memories he can at least keep this rotted corpse from touching them. I wonder about that imager too- the corpse with the gold. Was Guzel trying to tell Lymond that inside what he believed what his own rotted corpse, she found great worth? (NT) -- susiej, 11:39:30 02/21/09 Sat
    • Ooh, that's an interesting thought there, susiej. I also wondered if it was Guzel's rather bizarre way of reminding Lymond that his reward came as a result of his greatest challenge (Gabriel) and greatest sacrifice (Khairredin). Not sure if that makes any sense. (NT) -- Elaine, 12:07:46 02/21/09 Sat
      • it does make sense, but as one of her crueler moves reminding him yet again that he lives and has riches while his son does not- that to get free he had to kill Gabriel and Kharredin. Ofcourse, Lymond chose his son, in effect killed himself. But he couldnt have lived with himself if he'd killed Phillipa's Kuzum. (NT) -- susiej, 18:32:08 02/22/09 Sun
• Something I should know - was Ludo's child Joleta's first pregnancy? And the second pregnancy was the child of her brother? (NT) -- Denise, 10:12:56 02/20/09 Fri
  • I think Ludo believed the child killed in Turkey was his own child. I don't think Lymond or Guzel believed it, but that's what Ludo thought. I remember there being a reference to a "first pregnancy" in the previous book, but couldn't tell you what it implied. Maybe a tarnishing of Joleta's seemingly pure soul? (NT) -- Lil, 10:21:40 02/20/09 Fri
    • Yes, I think Ludo thought the boy Lymond chose to die was his (Ludo) and Joleta's child. That's one of the reasons he betrayed Lymond. (NT) -- susiej, 11:41:09 02/21/09 Sat
      • Poor Ludo, hired and tried to kill Lymond, then joined the choir and gave his life for him. My first love was from Yugoslavia and was named Ludovic. He went by Lou. (NT) -- FranS, 12:43:26 02/21/09 Sat
      • There's got to be a significant difference in age between a potential child of her first pregnancy and Khariedden (sp?), hey- at least 9 months, though I don't remember exactly what it is. Even the two blonde-haired boys are not the same age, are they? Yet there is always so much confusion! I suppose poor nutrition and other factors would have affected the growth rate of children, more so than today but there is still so much mistaken identity. (NT) -- Denise, 20:29:12 02/21/09 Sat
• This book is so fraught with tension, danger, and angst that it's difficult to read. Seems like we go from physical danger in the first half with sea voyages and wrecks, a mad ruler, an unknown assassin, the cold, wild sled rides to emotionally devastating confrontations and revelations on all sides. The pearl among all this distress was the Anvil Moment. In this last chapter, P asks about his headaches and he says he had had a blow to the head. Of course, he had several, but the one that rendered him unconscious for a time was from Richard and I think that was the source of the severe ones that leave him temporarily blind. (NT) -- FranS, 12:55:58 02/21/09 Sat
  • That's what I think, too. Other than his bouts with opium addiction, he never had debilitating headaches and temporary blindness before that. (NT) -- E, 15:15:40 02/21/09 Sat
  • I think Lymond's headaches stem not so much from a physical source as an emotional one. Anytime he has to suppress emotion (leading up to and after Sevigny in 'Checkmate') he goes through these bouts. Not saying Richard's blow helped, just that with Lymond, if he can't unleash his emotions-because they are so strong and go so deep- they back up and take on a physical form.>>> -- celtgirl, 16:23:02 02/21/09 Sat
    • What an awful experience, Cindy, cruel and inhumane really. Repression is an incredible stress on the mind and body. >>> -- E, 08:14:38 02/22/09 Sun
      • These headaches sound horrible! I'm so sorry that both of you have suffered such pain, but the good news is that you've both been spared for quite some time. (NT) -- Denise, 10:41:14 02/22/09 Sun
      • Ironically, to Cindy's experience, I started having migraines after my first child. I don't get them nearly as badly as some people, but the aura definitely impairs my vision (somewhat similar to the sensation after a flashbulb, but worse), and yes it takes me a day or so to recover, I call it a "migraine hangover". (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:33:14 02/22/09 Sun
        • Hormones? That's a common cause for women. I used to get awful headaches when I was younger but never thought they were bad enough to be migraines. Stupid on my part, I could've been given some help much earlier. I was in my 40's when I finally was so desperate that I called the dr. As I look back, I think that particular one might have been a cluster, too as it didn't last very long but was excruciating. The aura thing drives me nuts; I keep thinking my glasses are filmy then it hits me and I take my medication. My 'hangovers' are worse now than a few years ago. Chalk it up to aging. ;-) (NT) -- E, 06:02:31 02/23/09 Mon
          • Regarding Lymond's headaches (Checkmate spoiler inside) >>>> -- Sallie (), 07:01:14 02/23/09 Mon
            • Sallie>>> -- celtgirl, 07:43:33 02/23/09 Mon
              • Cindy >>> -- Sallie, 08:49:35 02/23/09 Mon
          • My first migraine experience was when I was shopping with my very young DS#1, as I went to write the check, I found I was having difficulty seeing (as I said, like having looked at a flashbulb). I wasn't sure what was happening at first, but didn't want to upset my child, so I pretended all was well and drove us home (boy was that a scary drive). After the aura faded, the pain started, and I put it all together. (NT) -- PeggyB, 13:40:49 02/23/09 Mon
            • That first migraine is truly frightening, because you simply can't fathom that much pain being contained in your skull. I used to get a cold nose and hands and then my peripheral vision would got black and fuzzy and I knew what was coming... (NT) -- celtgirl, 14:18:49 02/23/09 Mon
• Taken from the files section of the Marzipan list, "The Night Before Dunnett" >>>>>>>> -- FranS, 13:39:00 02/21/09 Sat
  • Very clever! (NT) -- E, 15:16:24 02/21/09 Sat

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• What beautiful animals! Can't imagine how horrible a ship ride would be for them. My little cat used to travel home with me for the holidays and she handled it OK- but always had this look on her face that said "nausea." And I finally have to ask a dumb question since i don't actually own the books- is Ludo the first name of D' Harcourt? (NT) -- susiej, 07:11:12 02/18/09 Wed
  • What you don't own the books!! Sacrilege! I bought all mine at used book stores, plus the Niccolo series. Yes, he's Ludovic d'Harcourt. (NT) -- Denise, 07:46:24 02/18/09 Wed
    • I was very fortunate to buy the complete set on ebay when we were first discussing GofK. And Denise has given me the Niccolo series, so I'm set! (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:09:30 02/18/09 Wed
    • I do plan to buy them. Have to smuggle them in. DH does huff a bit about all the books I bring home. Jack Whyte claims that his wife said, "You can bring home a mistress, but no more books!" (NT) -- susiej, 11:32:53 02/18/09 Wed
      • *seriously biting my tongue here* BEG (NT) -- PeggyB, 11:49:53 02/18/09 Wed
      • Totally understand, susiej. In my house it's books and fabric. Btw, hope you're feeling okay today. (NT) -- Elaine, 14:50:56 02/18/09 Wed
        • ((susie)) I had to look down to find what E was talking about. I hope you're not having too much pain...never had kidney stones, but had gallstones for about 10 years, so I can empathize to some degree. (NT) -- PeggyB, 15:19:30 02/18/09 Wed
          • I am MUCH better thankyou- I think I wasn't even aware of the stone until it was on its way out. And then I was just sort of in shock. Looking back, I realize the wierd pain I felt in my back wasn't middlesmurtz (or however you have that). I am dutifully guzzling water though. Seems stones are fairly common. I advise everyone to drink lots of water. (NT) -- susiej, 07:05:12 02/19/09 Thu
            • Glad you're better, BTW, that is NOT what we mean by Shamrocks & STONES!!!!!!!! (((susiej))) (NT) -- PeggyB, 19:30:34 02/19/09 Thu
• Can I jump back to chapter 3 for a moment (I'm currently on chapter 8....catching up). The description of Sybilla was heart rending for me. I don't know her age, but in this description, she sounds so aged and vulnerable....no wonder Lymond could not face her. He is the child of her heart, but it only seems that he brings her grief. So sad. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:40:38 02/18/09 Wed
  • They keep telling L he needs to see her while and can and act like she's dying. She's had white hair since the series began, I think, but I don't really know how old she is. Being a mother can be a painful thing and I feel for her too. (NT) -- FranS, 19:12:10 02/18/09 Wed

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• The political machinations of this group never fails to amaze me. I'd lose my mind living under such deceitful and stressful conditions. No career at court for me! I thought Lymond's frantic efforts to defeat his kidnappers very sad in a way; he is so desperate to return to Russia, to get away from the people and places which are making him feel again. (NT) -- Carla, 05:36:36 02/19/09 Thu
  • yes, isn't he blind during this. I'm sure there's some symoblism there. But besides that it was just heartwrenching. (NT) -- susiej, 07:07:44 02/19/09 Thu
    • Yes, I believe he is . (NT) -- Elaine, 08:53:11 02/19/09 Thu
  • That was a very upsetting scene - he was like a caged animal fighting for his life. He so desperately wants to leave, he doesn't seem to care who he hurts. It was really hard to read. (NT) -- Lil, 08:54:44 02/19/09 Thu
• COuld someone explaine the full conotation of Yunitsa? I have ideas but does someone Know? (NT) -- Annabel, 06:27:27 02/19/09 Thu
  • There was a brief discussion about it below under Chapter 11, Annabel. (NT) -- Elaine, 06:40:04 02/19/09 Thu
  • I remember reading somewhere that it was the equivalent of 'my darling, my love' kind of thing- I think it's so poignant in part because we've never heard Lymond use an endearment with anyone before, and so it's an indication of how in love he is, that he does this. (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:18:38 02/19/09 Thu
• I can't believe you're at the very end of RC. Even though I didn't really take part, it's been such fun to read your daily discussions. You're all amazingly insightful! (NT) -- Elaine, 06:40:58 02/19/09 Thu
  • I'm so happy you were able to join us when you did! It's not the same without you :) (NT) -- Denise, 09:49:57 02/19/09 Thu
    • Bless your heart. I'm sorry you're working so many long hours now, Denise. I hope this economy loosens up very soon, for everybody. (NT) -- Elaine, 12:36:47 02/19/09 Thu

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• I saw the posts below regarding Phillipa's hat (which sounded quite hilarious and irritating!) and found this picture that might be similar to what she was wearing>> -- Lil, 19:07:46 02/16/09 Mon
  • What's that in her right hand? It looks like a strangled monkey with a gold hat on it's head ! (ugly hat and doesn't go with her outfit.....) (NT) -- FranS, 23:03:33 02/16/09 Mon
    • It looks like a ferret. Yuck, either way. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 18:43:57 02/17/09 Tue
• I've just finished reading the chapter and I noticed a few things of interest. In the previous chapter it was clearly noted in the inn that Lymond clasped ringless hands, and now in this chapter he has a humungous bauble. Mistake, or did he bring it along and place it on his finger for effect in front of his friendly uncle? See, Elaine, I'm paying attention to his hands!! Also, when Lymond calls Philippa to the window to look at the two documents regarding his mother's infidelilty, does he do so because he's suffering from temporary blindness again? He seemed quite insistent that she join him which is not his usual solitary way. (NT) -- Denise, 19:40:41 02/16/09 Mon
  • I think he put the ring on to impress his uncle with the wealth (and therefore power & connections) he has. To ride about the countryside with such an expensive bauble on show would be an invitation to robbery. In respect to the window thing, I thought he just wanted to keep Phillipa close by so his yucky uncle would not have a chance to harm her in any way. (NT) -- Carla, 20:00:31 02/16/09 Mon
• One of the events I do not need to re-read to remember 'Yunitsa' :-) I remember googling this right away, I just knew he wasn't calling her a heifer *g* (NT) -- Marilyn, 19:46:16 02/16/09 Mon
  • I remember investigating this on my first reading of RC but am not sure if I remember this correctly now. It is a Russian word which literally does mean heifer I think, but in Russia it has deeper meaning as a genuine and sincere term of endearment. Something like beloved or darling or wtte. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:09:00 02/17/09 Tue
    • Haha! When I googled it, look what I came up with from our own archives. This gives more clarity to the definition. >>> -- Elaine, 07:17:26 02/17/09 Tue
      • that's very cool Elaine! And I agree. I love learning all this. (NT) -- susiej, 08:37:01 02/17/09 Tue
      • I've looked back on some posts I made on the chessboard, and it seems so long ago - was that really me? Time plays tricks on a person! (NT) -- Denise, 12:05:26 02/17/09 Tue
        • Denise, when I look back on my posts, I'm grateful that, in time, they scroll off the page. ;) (NT) -- Sallie, 13:30:49 02/17/09 Tue
          • Oh yeah, me, too! I couldn't believe that this one particular thing must still be somewhere in our archives that google picked it up. (NT) -- Elaine, 14:06:05 02/17/09 Tue
    • I think in the way Lymond is using it, it means 'my darling'. (NT) -- celtgirl, 07:21:44 02/17/09 Tue
    • From Elspeth Morrison's Dorothy Dunnett Companion Vol. II >>>> -- Sallie, 09:39:36 02/17/09 Tue
  • I remember reading that line and turning to Mike and saying, "Can you Google this word?" :-) I was all gushy when I found out the affectionate term. (NT) -- Lil, 15:45:42 02/17/09 Tue
• this is totally weird and off topic, but I just went to the doctor today and found out I have a kidney stone and I pop over here to see how the discussion is going and two of the top ads are for kidney stones- freaky! (NT) -- susiej, 17:49:01 02/17/09 Tue
  • Ouch! Take care. (((Susie))) (NT) -- Lil, 18:42:24 02/17/09 Tue
  • Those are so painful! Will you be getting it blasted? Very strange about those ads. Sorta like Big Brother (from 1984, not the tv show). (NT) -- Elaine, 19:44:10 02/17/09 Tue
  • (((Susie))) I hope you are able to get them blasted quickly. (NT) -- Carla, 20:24:16 02/17/09 Tue
  • Oh dear! I hope it passes/gets blasted soon! (NT) -- Denise, 20:56:59 02/17/09 Tue
  • Oh, ugh, Susie, are you in severe pain? I hope they deal with it right away. I just finished up a round of antibiotics for a kidney infection- I swear it felt like I had broken glass in my lower back before! (NT) -- celtgirl, 21:28:06 02/17/09 Tue
  • Susie, get better soon! (NT) -- FranS, 22:29:32 02/17/09 Tue
  • Hope this 'passes' or dissolves without too much pain Susie..ugh! (NT) -- Marilyn, 06:56:51 02/18/09 Wed
    • Yall are so sweet. Thanks! I'm really OK. I have had reocurring bladder infection and sort of thought that's what was going on. I'm feeling so much better today it could be I actually passed it yesterday. I have a scan tomorrow. (NT) -- susiej, 07:05:19 02/18/09 Wed
      • I'm a little late here, Susie, but I'm glad to hear you are feeling better today. (NT) -- Sallie, 07:58:01 02/18/09 Wed

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• The picture of Phillipa surrounded by suitors continues to remind me of poor Penelope fending off suitors while she awaits the return of Ulysseus. (please excuse spelling). I can't help but think that her status as a married woman has been refreshing for one so independant. She can banter away without any real consequences, without the chaperone an unmarried woman would require , she can't be forced by the court into a political marriage and in her case, she has no husband breathing down her neck. Though she might like that. And that brings up Lymond's 'silent retreat." Poor Lymond. Once again, the only thing he can think is to get himself away from those he loves. All the memories of his sister, the Stewart girl, Robin, the Scotts, Oonagh, Kharredin, even Dickon are clouding his sight and making him see himself as the mark of doom. (NT) -- susiej, 07:43:55 02/16/09 Mon
  • I always forget this factor when he's pushing people away. I always go to the "I'm not worthy, I'm filth, etc" mantra. I forget that he's also carrying the weight of all this loss. I am sure he's thinking at this moment (and many times before) that keeping Phillipa at arms length (or more) is best for her safety. And for Kate. Poor Lymond, is right. :-( (NT) -- Lil, 10:05:51 02/16/09 Mon
    • There is a third factor at play, and perhaps the most powerful. For the first time, Lymond truly loves in the deepest sense of the word. >>>>> -- Sallie (), 13:27:09 02/16/09 Mon
      • You will note too, that he holds his breath until she says 'Guzel' because he thinks for a mad minute that perhaps she knows it's she that he loves. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:37:56 02/16/09 Mon
        • That's right. (NT) -- Sallie, 13:42:54 02/16/09 Mon
• At this point, I think Philippa is considering the possibility of remaining Lymond's wife (wondering their age difference and if it is suitable), but I dont't think she realizes or allows her true depth of feelings. She thinks he is returning to Russia and the arms of Guzel, so it would be folly (impractical) to think she can remain married to him. What a situation in which to be living! (NT) -- Denise, 11:38:52 02/16/09 Mon
• This part of the book feels so 'warm' to me in comparison to the rest of it. Despite Lymond's troubles and worries, he's taking time to enjoy conversation, to banter with Philippa and engage in serious conversation with her too. He lets her see things, he never allows others to see- I can't imagine him allowing anyone else go to Gardington with him, can you? Also love the line, 'Trencher chippings, please, for the dutiful sow.' (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:57:55 02/16/09 Mon
  • yes, you're right but at the same time, he'd have to punch her (again) to make her stop. (NT) -- susiej, 13:06:40 02/16/09 Mon
  • I love that line, too, Cindy! :) So much happens on this ride to Gardington. We begin with Lymond and his defenses, move to honesty, and finally emotion. I am always moved when he suddenly stops and sees the toll their ride has had on Philippa. "'Oh, God!' Lymond said. It had such an unheard-of ring of feeling that she turned immediately, but he had swung himself abruptly from his horse..." So much love and pain are bound in that small phrase. (NT) -- Sallie, 13:41:48 02/16/09 Mon
  • I'm glad for the 'warmth'. Russia was physically and psychologically too cold for me! I love my Lymond witty, musical and laughing. A man in love is usually happier, unfortunately Francis is fighting this, feeling undeserving and poisonous to a young, and lovely Philippa but the glimpses of a 'human' Lymond are refreshing. (NT) -- Denise, 15:50:18 02/16/09 Mon

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• Sigh. I LOVE this chapter for so many reasons: the scene with Lymond laughing, relaxed and enjoying himself, finally a glimpse of who he could be if only he'd let himself. And then, of course, the anvil moment. How like DD to say it but not just come out and SAY it, which Lymond of course could not truly admit in actual words to himself at this point. (NT) -- Carla, 08:05:22 02/15/09 Sun
• My gawd, one has to be an incredibly patient reader with Dame Dunnett! Finally Francis recognizes in Philippa what we have seen for so long. I loved seeing Francis laugh and allow himself to be happy, and eventually love. At long last - (NT) -- Denise, 09:22:31 02/15/09 Sun
  • I think that's why the Romance Novel looking covers are so funny to us! Realizing he loves her certainly throws a wrench into his plans. Peggy, I read the blog that your example about posting pictures referenced, and in that discussion of RC, she talks some about the title. It helped clarify for me that Lymond himself is the castle, sealed up in his stony facade while his family, Queens, and the men of St. Mary's are ringed about him trying to get past those walls. Seeing him let them down and enjoy himself and interact with P with joy for a change is very refreshing. (NT) -- FranS, 10:01:26 02/15/09 Sun
    • Yeah, near the end of 5 long novels we are very subtly informed that the man has fallen in love. That would have happened in the first 100 pages, if not the first 10, in a romance novel. The covers are probably done like that since romance novels sell. Outlander was marketed as a romance novel due to the large number of romance novel buyers, not the content. (NT) -- Denise, 10:55:01 02/15/09 Sun
      • I was rooting for Fippy all the way (after they got married)! I hoped that Lymond would finally snap out of it and see what a good match she was for him. I knew in PIF she was a good match, but didn't know how things would go. Finally, he's come to his senses! (NT) -- Lil, 11:49:37 02/15/09 Sun
        • weel, he hasn't quite come to his senses yet. (NT) -- susiej, 12:52:06 02/15/09 Sun
          • Oops, sorry. You are correct. *g* (NT) -- Lil, 15:12:25 02/15/09 Sun
• Ack! I found a typo in the anvil quote. Here's the correct quote: “...his heart paused, and gave one single stroke, as if on an anvil.” (NT) -- Lil, 09:44:23 02/15/09 Sun
  • I think one of the things that makes this revelation so intense for the reader is that we're not expecting it at all. Not at this specific time anyway, since we are led to believe that he still thinks of her as a child and DD doesn't hint (that I saw) that this is imminent. And being such a "spare" writer, she doesn't dwell on it either. (NT) -- FranS, 11:34:52 02/15/09 Sun
    • Although spare, I appreciate that she gave us a bit of his shock after he's come to the realization. He's completely lost, raw and defenseless. The scene with him playing music in the middle of the night just added to it all. (NT) -- Lil, 11:52:38 02/15/09 Sun
      • This is the first time we see him make music with emotion involved since Khaireddin's death. (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:54:06 02/15/09 Sun
        • One slept through it, one ignored it, and one 'lay for a long time listening, his eyes wide in the dark to music which, without opium and without alcohol, Lymond had never allowed within his hearing before.' (NT) -- Sallie, 19:47:06 02/15/09 Sun
    • I think a big part of the reason it took Lymond so long to see Philippa as an adult is that she was the daughter of his good friend. Lymond so values his friendship with Kate and would do anything (as we've already seen) to protect her only child. And that includes keeping that child from himself since he views himself so badly. Oh, big, big sigh. I do love Lymond. And I think because it took so long to get him to this point and because we were fans of his back when Philippa most definitely was not, I feel he "belongs" to me in a ways that say, Jamie Fraser never did. He was always Claire's. Now, Jamie Kirkpatrick is still available to my knowledge *g*. (NT) -- susiej, 12:50:50 02/15/09 Sun
      • You'll be fighting a swarm of women for that Jamie, and I assure you, I don't always play fair! (NT) -- Denise, 14:15:27 02/15/09 Sun
      • I think he must be available, because he's playing the field enough in this WIP. :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 14:26:41 02/15/09 Sun
        • woo hoo- can't wait to read all about that! (NT) -- susiej, 07:30:58 02/16/09 Mon
• Actually, in the classical sense of the word 'romance' Dunnett's books are Romances- just not how we've come to understand the term's meaning. Classically it was a form of literature that dealt with chivalry, history and mythology- not at all how we view the term Romance today. (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:26:36 02/15/09 Sun
  • Yeah, romance seems to be about "member"-ship, sir-"loin" and manhood these days. Not that that's a bad thing! *snerk* (NT) -- Lil, 11:47:32 02/15/09 Sun
  • Yes, our perception of romance novels has changed. Blatant sexual activity is commonplace in romance novels now, certainly not the expectation of novels even a few decades ago, unless you're talking about porn. (NT) -- Denise, 14:25:19 02/15/09 Sun
• Two of my favorite (humorous) lines from the LC are found in this chapter. :) >>>> -- Sallie, 19:56:04 02/15/09 Sun
  • I love the 'will you kindly take a new sight for your cannon...' as well, so much lovely banter between these two- they are matched in a sense of play and wit. (NT) -- celtgirl, 20:13:57 02/15/09 Sun
  • Sallie, do you have these books memorized?? Either that, or you know them extremely well and can put a hand on any quote that comes to mind! You are amazing! I noticed you showed up to the discussion at your favourite section, the anvil moment. Psychic as well, I see. (NT) -- Denise, 20:17:14 02/15/09 Sun
    • Sallie knows these books like nobody else I know- she is always the person I refer to when someone asks me a question that I'm really uncertain of- she has a very good mind, rather like Philippa actually. :) (NT) -- celtgirl (), 20:49:50 02/15/09 Sun
      • My, what a compliment that is! Philippa is my all-time favourite female character and Sallie sees eye-to-eye with me regarding drool-worthy men. You embody perfection, dear Sallie! (NT) -- Denise, 09:23:58 02/16/09 Mon
        • Goodness, I don't even know how to respond to those compliments! Thanks Cindy and Denise. :) (NT) -- Sallie, 13:54:47 02/16/09 Mon
  • Speaking of that red sock hat, wasn't that a symbol worn by the rebels during the French Revolution? I don't know how that fits into this time period, but one of you ladies does I bet....... (NT) -- FranS, 20:26:17 02/15/09 Sun
    • That's an interesting question, Fran. They do make a point of it being Spanish, and if memory serves, I think 16C Spanish sailors wore similar hats. (NT) -- Sallie, 14:00:07 02/16/09 Mon

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• I'll hijack this post to remind everyone that we will be starting our Cape Random/Random Passage discussion in 2 weeks - on March 1st. Now's the time to get your book out and review it or start reading (I'm in this last department! *g*). It's only a three week discussion, so it will go by rather quickly. But from what I've heard about this book, its wonderful and will be worth it to discuss. (NT) -- Lil, 09:23:29 02/14/09 Sat
  • Do you need summarists for RP, Nalana? If you need another one for CM, I will offer (but am a little worried I will not do as fabulous a job as the rest of you did with RC. I really missed doing it.) (NT) -- Elaine, 10:01:59 02/14/09 Sat
    • I've got an email out to a couple of people who had showed an interest in summarizing. We should be okay, but if you can help out during CM that would be great. Its a lot of work (she says as she's scrambling to finish the last week of RC), but I really enjoyed re-reading along with the discussion. Sometimes I read the whole chapter, other times I just jumped in on an area I had questions about. This is the best way to discuss DD. So much can be missed! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 11:06:43 02/14/09 Sat
  • It's maybe not the best plan, but I'll be reading Random Passage a chapter a night without the benefit of a previous reading. I've done this before with several of our books. Sometimes this method provides a nice surprise, but one misses the knowledge from an earlier read. (NT) -- Denise, 10:38:35 02/14/09 Sat
  • I almost got this series on Netflix and now I am so glad I didn't. I will get a copy soon so that I can get back into the discussion mode. I haven't done one for quite a while so I am looking forward to this and *then* I will watch the mini-series. (NT) -- Rebeccab, 17:11:10 02/14/09 Sat
    • Didn't even know they made a mini-series out of it. (NT) -- Elaine, 17:53:19 02/14/09 Sat
      • I actually saw the miniseries one night whilst channel surfing and ended up getting the book as a result. (NT) -- celtgirl, 18:14:49 02/14/09 Sat
        • I saw the mini-series when it first came out, but that was some time ago so I expect to remember very little during this read. A forgetful brain helps to keep things fresh, I'll say that! (NT) -- Denise, 10:57:07 02/15/09 Sun
• Ugh, I finally finished the chapter of the shipwreck. The loss of Chancellor and his son was just awful. Diccon was a real person, so I read the Wiki entry on him. What a loss. I can't help but wonder why Christopher was so leery of Lymond, his reaction reminded me of the young-Philippa. Do we learn the reason later? Click Here for RICHARD CHANCELLOR on Wikipedia. (NT) -- PeggyB, 14:59:55 02/15/09 Sun