VoyForums: Shamrocks & Stones

[ VoyUser Login optional ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, [3], 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ]

Book Discussion Board

Welcome
to the Shamrocks & Stones Book Discussion Board.
We will have guided discussions of selected books.

Please post with respect.
Literary critique is acceptable; bashing of authors and board members is not

"Choose an author as you choose a friend."ааA. Helps 1813-1879

Lymond's Chess Board S&S Pub S&S Bairns Bookshelf Shamrocks & Stones Website

Crow Lake discussion starts
November 8th

Checkmate, Part V: Chapter 13 -- Sallie, 04:57:31 05/20/09 Wed [30]

The tree, dead dry for so long,
In one night will turn again to green.

Q1. They set off that evening to take Marthe Crawford to the home of her fathers, which she had never known. And behind them, in care of Flaw Valleys, left Philippa, and Sybilla and her younger son, who could not easily travel. Why did Sybilla stay behind?

Today had been his, and nothing could touch him.

Q2. She pressed the latch, and set the last door to lie open. СKhush geldi: welcome: thou art come happily,Т she said gently, and let him come, where he belonged, within her gouvernance. Any thoughts on this scene?

He slept half the night through after that, motionless in her arms in the kind of peace he had probably not known since childhood.

ТI have begun to eat,Т said Francis Crawford. СAnd I have begun to slake my thirst. But in you I have found a banquet under the heavens that will serve me for ever.Т

Q3. ТI am sky-clad like the Digambaras.Т Why does Lymond appear before his mother this way?

Q4. ТIf Francis had died yesterday instead of Marthe,Т said Sybilla suddenly to the girl, Сcould you have brought yourself one day to marry Kuzum?Т СYes,Т said Philippa. What are your thoughts on this exchange?

Q5. Compare/contrast: Adam witnessing Lymond and Philippa that night in the salon at Sevigny with Sybilla overhearing Lymond and Philippa in the music room at Flaw Valleys.

Q6. The final scene is steeped in symbology, from the room itself to LymondТs hands. Comment on the symbology you found.

'We have reached the open sea, with some charts; and the firmament.'

[Edit]

Replies:
Checkmate, Part V: Chapter 12 -- Sallie, 04:36:14 05/19/09 Tue [25]

The ancient work shall be finished.

Q1. Fire, and water. Where had she heard that before? And what remains of the prophecy?

Q2. What is the significance of PhilippaТs green cloak?

Q3. How did LymondТs apparent death Ц and life Ц allow Philippa to cross the final boundary?

Q4. Jerott and Kate turn away while Lymond and Philippa embrace. Why?

[Edit]

Replies:
Checkmate, Part V: Chapter 11 -- Sallie, 05:11:42 05/18/09 Mon [23]

The cock will see the eagle with a bad wing
Brought by the lion to extremity.

Q1. Why does Nostradamus refrain from reading the document Marthe holds?

Q2. ТWe all die,Т said Nostradamus. СThe man you love. The man who loves you. The man you married. But because of you there will be something, I promise you, by which men will know Francis Crawford has been.' Who is/are the men Nostradamus is referring to? What is meant by the last sentence?

Q3. 'There are handicaps more crippling than blindness. Even the part of me that did not come back from Dourlans would hardly have made you a whole manЕ' What does Lymond mean by this statement? What part of him did not come back?

Q4. Dunnett has allowed us inside LymondТs mind at what he believes to be the end of his life. He holds fast to two thoughts. A promise made, and Philippa. Lymond has broken vows in the past. Why does he insist on honoring this one to Sybilla?

Q5. He thought, in his self-deception, that Philippa would not mind, since he was so weary; and today his love, like hers, was of the mind only. Any thoughts/comments on this statement?

[Edit]

Replies:
Checkmate, Part V: Chapter 10 -- Sallie, 05:07:39 05/17/09 Sun [16]

The change will be very hard,
City and province shall gain by the change:
High heart, prudently placed, the unworthy expelled,
Sea, land, people will change their state.

IТve posted a few questions and quotes that I hope will spark discussion.

Q1. On AustinТs side there was worship. On PhilippaТs side, something one could only begin to guess at. (p. 538) What role does Austin serve in PhilippaТs life?

'As the pen needs the penknife, they are made for one another. And they know it.' (p. 540)

'My father doesnТt cry.'
'No,' said Adam. (p. 541)

Q2. Then Philippa said, СBecause the grounds for divorce were to be lack of consummation.Т Kate does not pursue it, but what might she be thinking?

Q3. Austin sends musicians to Flaw Valleys to serenade Philippa. Music is a fair and lovely gift of God, and deserves to be extolled as the mistress and governess of the feelings of the human heart. (p. 542) What role does music play in this scene?

Q4. Philippa and Sybilla are at odds concerning LymondТs life. One gives him license to end his life while the other forces him to live at all cost. The ending aside, who is right? 'I need not tell you. Unless matters change, you should not meet.' (p. 545) Why does Sybilla feel the need to say this?

Q5. After so many years, why does Lymond return the guerdon to Mary?

Q6. Lymond meets Catherine dТAlbon before departing for Scotland. Why does he feel compelled to refer to that fateful night?

Unless, in his heart of hearts he recognized as Lymond did that what lay around him were shut gates; and what lay before him was nothing. (p. 549)

[Edit]

Replies:
Summer Reading Discussion Schedule -- Lil, 20:15:45 05/16/09 Sat [4]

Hello all! Thanks to all who have contributed to the planning of our Summer Reading Discussions! I have pulled together a schedule for the summer that I hope will work for most.

It looks like we have enough interest in reading all three of the Brendan O'Carroll books and they will start off our summer reading. So pull out your calendars everyone!

The Mammy, The Chisellers, The Granny by Brendan O'Carroll

The Mammy: June 7 Ц 13
The Chisellers: June 14 Ц 20
The Granny: June 21 - 27

We are going to do a different format with these books. Since they are pretty short books, each day there will be a topic/question from the book posted. We will do this in lieu of chapter reviews, but will hopefully hit on all the wonderful parts of each book.

*Would love to have some volunteers to help out*

Waiting for Time by Bernice Morgan

July 5 Ц 11: Chap 1 Ц 6
July 12 - 18: Chap 7 Ц 12
July 19 Ц 25: Chap 13 Ц 17, Epilogue

Standard chapter reviews for this book. 6 chapters per week.

*Would love to have some volunteers to help out*

Crow Lake by Mary Lawson

Aug 2 Ц 8: Prologue Ц Chapter 6
Aug 9 Ц 15: Chap 7 Ц 12
Aug 16 Ц 22: Chapter 13 - 18
Aug 23 Ц 29: Chapter 19 - 24

Standard chapter reviews for this book. 6 Chapters per week.

*Would love to have some volunteers to help out*

If you are interested in volunteering for any of the dicussions, please send me an email at: n_lillie AT cox DOT net.

Look forward to hearing from you and to a great summer of fun reading!

[Edit]

Replies:
- I'm going to try and join in for 'The Mammy'. I have 'The Young Wan' as well, but not the other two. 'Angels' is starting to consume my life though, so I think I'll be writing more than reading this summer- but like I said will join in for 'The Mammy'. If you need me to help, Nalana, just assign me something. (NT) -- celtgirl, 20:47:27 05/16/09 Sat
- Hi, Nalana. Sign me up for any part of the Brendan O'Carroll read. I have all of the books, so it doesn't matter to me which book or which week. (NT) -- Carla, 10:22:54 05/17/09 Sun
- Count on me for whatever you need except during the week of 7/12. I have all these books ready and waiting. (NT) -- Elaine, who seems to be a spammer on this board, too, 11:14:03 05/17/09 Sun
Part 5, Chapter 9 -- Carolyn, 07:17:47 05/16/09 Sat [3]

Chapter 9

Lymond begins to recover. Sybilla visits him a reminds him of his oath. From her, Lymond learns he is a lot like his father and Sybilla loved him. Lymond confesses he did not wish to live but that he will honor his oath and return to Scotland.

Lymond tells his men that he will find out who caused the УsicknessФ at Dieppe and return to Scotland. His former St. MaryТs men all agree to come with him, including Jerott who intends to leave Marthe. The others will go ahead of Lymond with the Commisioners. Lymond intends to leave with Richard.

Marthe is the last to visit Lymond. She is aware Jerott is leaving her. Marthe says they are all part of a УpatternФ. Lymond reminds her Уyou are not entrusted with it.Ф They discuss the night of the УfireФ and Lymond reluctantly admits he was speaking to the D de D. and that she called him back. УI am condemned to spend the rest of my life under her patronageФ. Before she takes her leave Lymond asks if they will meet again. Marthe is uncertain and then says to him УLord, is there nothing in the cup for me? While you were drinking, I was singing to youФ. In reply, Lymond shakes his head. Marthe leaves for Blois with Nostradamus.

Danny intends to stay behind to follow Marthe to Blois.

It is now September. Charles V of Spain dies, the Scottish Commisioners leave from Dieppe. Two days later, Lymond and Richard go to see the King at Amiens. Lymond informs the King that he wants to leave France and live privately on his estate in Scotland . The King is not impressed but allows him to keep his Order of St. Michael. Lymond is dismissed but is given a letter by the comte de la Rochefoucauld which he is to read privately.

The Cardinal of Lorraine stops Lymond and Richard as they are leaving. He accuses Lymond of having impersonated Уa prince of the churchФ and trying to develop a Calvinist following in France. He knows Richard was present at one of the Protestant processions. They must leave France and never return or else face the most severe of consequences.

Lymond reads the letter from Willie Grey warning him to behave or risk being indicted for heresy. The next day the brothers set out for Paris. Lymond is weak but suffers no Уnerve-stormsФ. The Chapter ends with the Cardinal sending a letter to the Countess of Lennox.

[Edit]

Replies:
- (p. 527 Vintage) "....his mother [Sybilla] was taken on board with the help of Archie Abernethy, who in his time had served all the Crawfords." How old is Archie? What does DD mean by all the Crawfords? Would he have known Gavin and Francis Sr.????? Does Archie know the truth about Sybilla's children? (NT) -- PeggyB, 15:12:19 05/16/09 Sat
  - I have often wondered about Archie's age. Haven't the slightest idea how to answer your question because I've had the same one. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 20:17:27 05/16/09 Sat
Hi all. My summary will be late today...or tommorow. Busy, busy,busy. Bye for now, -- Carolyn, 05:37:34 05/15/09 Fri [13]
[Edit]

Replies:
- No problem. I've hardly been able to do more than lurk.And I thank all of you for the great posts you've done. (NT) -- susiej, 06:08:10 05/15/09 Fri
- I'm heading off today for a few days in BC, will be back Sunday or Monday and really don't want to miss anything! Guess I'll catch up whenever I'm back in front of a computer! (NT) -- Denise, 09:50:28 05/15/09 Fri
- Nalana When will we be starting "The Mammy"? I'll need to place a hold at the library and want to plan the timing.. (NT) -- Denise, 09:53:05 05/15/09 Fri
  - Denise, I am working on the schedule right now. I'll have the tentative schedule posted tomorrow. *g* (NT) -- Lil, 18:46:31 05/15/09 Fri
    - Question for you, Denise...do you happen to have a copy of Crow Lake handy? If so could you post or email me the chapter breakdown. I have it on hold at the library...not sure how long it will take to get it. Could use the breakdown for the schedule. Thanks! (NT) -- Lil, 19:59:31 05/15/09 Fri
      - If Denise doesn't have it handy, my copy just arrived today. Lemme know. (NT) -- Elaine, 21:31:14 05/15/09 Fri
- Goodness, no worries at all. I'm only able to read posts these days, and loving everyone's comments. (NT) -- Elaine, 11:58:08 05/15/09 Fri
- Posted a question below (last summary) if anyone has a minute to read it. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 18:52:42 05/15/09 Fri
- Hijacking for a question regarding this summer's discussion. >>> -- Lil, 20:32:04 05/15/09 Fri
  - Fine with me. (NT) -- Elaine, 21:30:17 05/15/09 Fri
  - Seems ok to me. (NT) -- Tracy, 13:51:28 05/16/09 Sat
  - The series sounds great. (NT) -- Noelle, 15:37:15 05/16/09 Sat
Part5, Chapter 8 ..... A long Summary..... -- Carolyn, 05:07:43 05/14/09 Thu [27]
While travelling to England, Philippa is Уseized by a terrorФ and goes to Adam. He lights all the candles in his cabin but is unable to comfort her. Suddenly she yells УOh, put out the candles...They are burning meФ and begins sobbing.

A mortal sickness is discovered on one of the Scottish bound ships. Richard and James Stewart suspect poisoning and acknowledge that LymondТs warning was probably correct.

Richard and Sybilla learn that Lymond is dying in Amiens. They arrive one week after his accident and learn he is blind and has not regained consciousness. Jerott admits that Уhe didnТt mean to come back, and I brought himФ.

Sybilla et al. keep a vigil at LymondТs bedside for ten days during which he does not improve. Sybilla Уcame here not for comfort, but to do penance, for she knew the sin she was paying for: she had watched his love die: she had been constrained in her fear, to turn his own knife against him at Dieppe and thus simply add burden which, in the end, had grown too great to carry.Ф ??? (insights please)

Enter Marthe, hostile and vicious, as usual. She finally meets Richard whom she treats with disdain. УA man to whom the law had given all that she might have been born to, as much as the half-brother who had taken Guzel from herФ.
Marthe thinks they should send for Philippa as the blindness was absent when she and Lymond were together at Sevigny (and is hence curable). But Philippa is too far away.

Marthe asks Sybilla, as LymondТs mother, to save him. УI think you know you can waken him, but are afraid to attempt it. Am I right?Ф Sybilla admits she likely can reach him but it may kill him and that he must be awake. She tells Marthe УYou came to me, as soon as you heard about Francis. I told you once, I think, that you would need meФ.

Lymond is almost beyond them in Уthe house of opiumФ haunted by his dead. They light candles all around him, burn mandragora (a hallucinogen), and light the bed on fire. Present are Archie, Sybilla, Richard, Marthe, Jerott, and Уfamiliar servantФ (?????)

Sybilla begins the process of brining Lymond back. She speaks to him with uncharacteristc harshness and disdain, even striking him to hold his focus. She forces him to realize that others need him and that he must honor his promise to her. She tells him he must live, turn his back on France and return to Scotland. He says УOn my honour, I promise itФ

The chapter ends with Marthe saying she, who fears and respects no one, could not have done what Sybilla did. Jerott replies that it was a miracle and, УIt should never have been performedФ.

[Edit]

Replies:
Part 5, Chapter 7 -- Carolyn, 05:02:58 05/13/09 Wed [19]

Archie goes to Amiens to deliver PhilippaТs letter to Lymond. He finds Lymond blind in his tent. Archies has to tell Lymond that Philippa has left for England.
Archie has arranged for Adam to join up with Philippa and Austin to see her home.

Once alone with his sight restored, Lymond reads the letter. Philippa expresses her love and wish for LymondТs peace. УOne of them had to make the sacrifice. One of them had to suffer the guilt.....Philippa had restored to him the free will he had lost that evening in ParisФ.

The English blockade of France ends and the Scottish Commisioners are able to return home. Sybilla receives a note from Philippa, УIt is over. The blame belongs to me, not to FrancisФ.

LymondТs health continues to decline. Lancelot Plummer returns from Russia and brings tidings of GuzelТs death. The news brings on a severe СattackТ after which Lymond tells Archie he can not go on like this. Archie offers him opium but Jerott barges in and begs him not to take it. As an alternative, Lymond proposes an СexpeditionТ into the enemy camp, one which he clearly does not plan to return from.

Lymond and his St. MaryТs men devise a plan to destroy the bridges over the river Authie there by cutting the Spanish off from supplies. They enter the Mill camp dressed as Spaniards and convince the command that they are under French attack. During the ensuing panic, they cut loose the floating Mills and start them down river toward the bridges.

Lymond is alone on the first mill. His job is to set it on fire and jump to safety at the last minute. Blindness overcomes him but he manages to light the fuse to the gun powder and find the door. He jumps to the river but is injured by the exploding mill. "He was already sinking when the second mill struck him" Cringe!!

Some interesting quotes to ponder:

"There he blundered purposefully about...until he found the open space of the door. For a moment he stood there, and as once Philippa had done, forbade his mind to fly to its homing."

"Then it seemed an impatient voice said 'Come!' So he dropped from the mill, and the cold swirling flow of the Authie received him."

[Edit]

Replies:
- Re: your first quote - is 'its homing' referring to his death? I had assumed that he intended to die in this scheme, but he pushes free from the mill and attempts to save himself, trying to cheat death, a path that Philippa had forbidden him to take. (NT) -- Denise, 07:53:15 05/13/09 Wed
  - No, the homing of his mind is Philippa's mind. That's why he closes his mind to her, so she doesn't know what he is about to do. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 07:57:50 05/13/09 Wed
  - Denise, 'homing' means sending his thoughts to Philippa's mind. He avoids doing this just as she avoided sending her thoughts to him when he fought at Calais. Catherine was free to knock on that door: to send to him her thoughts and her love, to be with him through his time of danger. (V, pg. 198) (NT) -- Sallie, 07:59:34 05/13/09 Wed
    - Ah, of course, makes sense now. Thanks ladies! (NT) -- Denise, 09:36:36 05/13/09 Wed
- This scene brings to mind a familiar quote. O mill, what hast thou ground? (NT) -- Sallie, 08:01:10 05/13/09 Wed
- I think this is when I started getting concerned about the ending of the book, and started feeling twinges of anger at DD. Having spent a lot of time in and around water in my life, I could only imagine what it would be like to be blind and disoriented in a flowing river with debris and fire all around. This scene just hit me in the gut. (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:17:16 05/13/09 Wed
- I'm glad Jerrot interrupted Lymond taking the Opium. I just donТt' want Lymond to give up.....I know he is suffering and I donТt want that eitherЕ.there is just no good options at this point. (NT) -- Lynne, 09:05:41 05/13/09 Wed
- I can still see that scene on the river playing out in my head. I was for sure things were going to go really bad. I too am thankful Jerott didn't let Lymond take the opium, but I wish there was something that could ease his pain at this point. He's so lost and miserable. Its just sad. (NT) -- Lil, 09:54:52 05/13/09 Wed
- So who is the impatient voice saying 'Come!' before he jumps? (NT) -- Carolyn, 10:03:44 05/13/09 Wed
  - I think its the Dame de Doubtance, still moving the pieces on the board. (NT) -- Sallie, 10:07:35 05/13/09 Wed
    - I think it's someone other than the DdeD, I think it's the man that is her master. (NT) -- celtgirl, 10:09:34 05/13/09 Wed
      - So, is this person calling Lymond to his death? Is that part of 'the plan'? I thought as a man of destiny, they would be trying to save him?? (NT) -- Carolyn, 10:24:07 05/13/09 Wed
        
        No, I think they are saying 'come' to jump out of the mill before it explodes- the jump essentially saves his life- because Jerott saves him, which is likely just another move on the chessboard- Jerott would have been always intended to save Lymond. As a knight this is Jerott's role on the board, to save even when saving is not wanted. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 10:25:28 05/13/09 Wed
        
        I would add to this, that Jerott saved him physically but only Lymond can save himself psychically- so to speak. With Sybilla as the goad, holding him to his promise. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 10:34:49 05/13/09 Wed
        Ooh I like that! Jerott ...like the knight on the chessboard.... (NT) -- Lynne, 10:45:03 05/13/09 Wed
        Yes, that makes sense. He would definitely have died if he didn't jump. Just slap me cg, I'm kinda slow at times :) (NT) -- Carolyn, 10:49:47 05/13/09 Wed
        
        Do you know how many times I've had to slap myself with these books? On my second read-through of Niccolo I felt like an idiot, I couldn't believe the things I'd missed on the first read. That's what I love about Dunnett's work though, there's always more gold to be mined, whichever read you're on. (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:26:25 05/13/09 Wed
- I think Phillipa needed to go home at this point, not necessarily with Austin, but she needed to be with her mother so she could heal. Kate is the ultimate in sensible and if anybody could help Phillipa deal with and get past what happened with Bailey, it's her. (NT) -- Carla, 18:06:33 05/13/09 Wed
Part 5, Chapter 6 -- Carolyn, 04:58:34 05/12/09 Tue [43]

Lymond and his men are marching from Pierrepont to Amiens under harsh circumstances with few provisions. Lymond has to deal out justice to some unruly soldiers. Alec finds Lymond resting against a tree and conveys his concern that Lymond is stressed and exhausted. He suggests ways to relieve tension to which Lymond replies, УIf Jerott puts a girl in my tent I shall kill herФ.

Lymond has received two more letters from Philippa. She has reopened his network of informants from across Europe and is sending him information along with an account of her feelings. УThere is nothing of me that does not belong to you...More than your love I want peace for you: so better your need of me died than that it should become unendurable.....God grant quiet rest. PhilippaФ.

Reference is made to a linking of their minds across the distance, an open channel.

Lymond writes a brief note to Richard before the march continues.

Outside a small village, one of LymondТs men is hit with a crossbolt. A group of enemy soldiers is discovered in the village. LymondТs men overcome them easily and proceed to celebrate. Rather than join in, Lymond rides recklessly away with a worried Jerott in pursuit. Lymond is thrown from his horse and although he breaks no bones, Jerott finds him doubled over shuddering uncontrollably. Jerott holds him through the worst of the attack and learns that it was brought on by torment over Philippa. Lymond confesses that it is an incomplete marriage. He canТt go on with it any longer.

Arriving at Amiens, Lymond is all business. Jerott delivers the note to Richard warning he and the other Scottish commissioners that their knowledge of the УsecretФ dowry papers is known to the Cardinal. Richard dismisses the warning and slanders Lymond. Jerott leaves angry and pours his heart out to Marthe.

Marthe goes straight to Philippa at Sevigny and accuses her of trying to kill Lymond. She informs Philippa that the headaches are back and that many now know of her encounter with Leonard Bailey.

УWhat did you think you were achieving when you marched into that house like Joan of Arc going to the faggots?Ф

УA raped woman should go on her knees if her husband will accept herФ

УThere is no schoolgirl since the spheres were created who has made such a drama out of losing her chastity. You claim to love him. After all he has done for you, can you not grit your teeth and take himФ

Marthe is such a sweetheart, non?

Philippa tells Marthe that she a Lymond are half siblings. She accuses Marthe of trying to be the D de DТs messenger by forcing the union between she and Lymond.
We learn that Marthe perhaps wants Lymond for herself. ``when Sybilla`s son came, he was not for her grand-daughter``....``No`` Marthe said. ``It was you he was to marry``. When Philippa asks why Marthe is tied to them, Marthe responds ``so that there will be someone here when you have gone``. WTF

The chapter ends with Philippa deciding to leave for England with Austin. Boo Hiss!

[Edit]

Replies:
Part 5, Chapter 5 I'm trying the picture again -- Carolyn, 04:20:36 05/11/09 Mon [23]

The French army suffers great losses at Gravelines. Lymond, now a Marshal of France, meets up with the army now at Reims. He is embraced by the King.

Lymond is reunited with Jerott, Adam, Alec G, Danny and Hoddim. They are curious as to why he accepted the MarshalТs brevet. Lymond is evasive. Jerott asks after Philippa and why the divorce did not take place. Lymond answers, УIf you will tell me , Jerott, why you received Marthe back, I shall tell you why I failed to have my marriage dissolved.Ф Adam warns them not to interfere.

Lymond and Philippa exchange letters. Lymond ends his with УI am thou thy selfe, FrancisФ. PhilippaТs letter finishes with УThe place of my thoughts you may know by now. For yours, the door of this kingdom is open by day and by night if you will lend them to meФ (??)

John Elder visits Richard, then Austin on his way back to England. Elder tells Austin that Philippa is pregnant and that she had removed all her money from her bankers prior to leaving Paris. Elder has deduced what happened to Philippa at the Hotel des Spheres and tells Austin all the sordid details. He tells Austin that Lymond is a bastard and that Bailey was trying to find proof of this for Countess Lennox.

Half crazed, Austin goes to Sybilla with his theory. He thinks Lymond has killed Madame Roset to cover up his bastardy. He believes the marriage can be annulled as Lymond is not who he says he is. He begs Sybilla to give him some proof but she wonТt help him.

Driven by John Elder, Austin visits Marthe. She offers no help and believes Lymond innocent of Madame RosetТs murder. She and Austin both wonder why Leonard Bailey would want her dead.

[Edit]

Replies:

Cindy Brandner's Website

аааааDorothy Dunnett Website

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 2.94, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums^(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2008 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.