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Welcome to the Shamrocks & Stones Book Discussion Board. We will have guided discussions of selected books. Please post with respect. Literary critique is acceptable; bashing of authors and board members is not "Choose an author as you choose a friend."  A. Helps 1813-1879

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• Part 5 Chapter 4 -- Carolyn, 17:53:05 05/09/09 Sat [23]
  
  Lymond and Philippa are at Sevigny but strain is starting to show in their relationship.
  
  Philippa tells Lymond she is not pregnant with Bailey’s child.
  
  They still will not touch one another....”For in one night she had learned the nature of man’s love for woman, and all poetry and all music had been wrenched from her”.
  
  Philippa realizes that she has bound Lymond to her and he will never leave. Their marriage has become a source of misery. Lymond has to be ever vigilant not to show her “the cost of his abstinence”.
  
  He begins leaving her for longer and longer periods to exercise, hunt, and ride. He sleeps very little.
  
  Seeing him asleep and shocked at his exhaustion, Philippa touches his hand.....“she had broken the unwritten law: it must not be uttered”. He recoils from her and flees from the room. Returning later he says, “next time, you will remember”.
  
  Later, Philippa sees Lymond swimming in the river. The vision of his naked body brings back all her memories of Bailey and she becomes violently ill. When they next speak, Lymond tells her he must leave reminding her, “It might have happened in my arms, Philippa”. He tells her he has failed her and finally he breaks down. Philippa can not comfort him and runs from the room as a fierce storm rages outside.
  
  Lymond leaves Sevigny before dawn the next morning. Back in Paris, Isabelle Roset’s body is found outside the Hotel des Spheres.
  

  [Edit]
  
  Replies:

  • To all the mothers out there, Happy Mother's Day!!! (NT) -- Carolyn, 17:54:49 05/09/09 Sat
  • I forgot the art work so here is a favorite of mine. (NT) -- Carolyn, 07:48:39 05/10/09 Sun
    • This image of Lymond, actually comes a little close to the man I visualize as I read these books. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:33:00 05/10/09 Sun
      • Me too. Me likey a lot :) (NT) -- Carolyn, 14:21:20 05/10/09 Sun
        • I can't see this image, even when I cut and paste it into the navigation bar (have I used the correct terminology, Peggy?). What am I missing?? (NT) -- Denise, 15:37:12 05/10/09 Sun
          • I'm afraid I can't see it either. (NT) -- Sallie, 16:58:48 05/10/09 Sun
            • Linking to photos on any yahoo site doesn't usually work too well, probably a bandwidth thing. (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:50:08 05/11/09 Mon
    • Doesn't show for me with any of the usual tricks, either :( Do you have a direct link/addy, Carolyn? (NT) -- Carla, 18:17:18 05/10/09 Sun
      • Oh dear! If you go to Marzipan (yahoo group) it is filed under "files" and its called Lymond cover of queens play - or something like that. I can't get onto yahoo right now to get the exact name. (NT) -- Carolyn, 03:22:01 05/11/09 Mon
        • You have to scroll down a bit its called Queens_Play_FC_on_Ship.jpg (NT) -- Carolyn, 03:25:16 05/11/09 Mon
  • The chapters seem to be getting more heart-wrenching than the last. Lymond is not a beast, why does he think he will be uncontrollable near Philippa? Not a chance. He may want to kiss her, and maybe that would be more than she could handle, but he's not going to take her without consent. I don't understand why he has to use such amazing control! (NT) -- Denise, 10:04:33 05/10/09 Sun
    • I tend to agree. The first time I read this, I found it a bit hard to believe that he would not be able to control himself or that they could not somehow find a way to touch and comfort one another without harm. I've sort of accepted the story as it is but I would think, most couples would be able to find a common ground which could encompass tenderness and respect without pushing any boundaries. Lymond's reaction to P touching him only made her feel more guilty, more of a failure. (NT) -- Carolyn, 11:57:05 05/10/09 Sun
      • I think, at this point, though they both truly believe they will never be able to have a physical relationship with one another, and that makes it the extremely fraught situation that it is. Lymond is a man given to extremes, he's very highly tuned, and this woman is the grand passion of his life. I think it is true to the characters in that sense. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:40:01 05/10/09 Sun
        • Indeed, Lymond is high strung and goes to extremes. On top of that, Philippa has nothing to compare her situation to. She has had no other lovers and likely doesn't know that physical contact can be gentle and tender. To her it can only be horrific. It is what it is. I can accept it.. After all, we know that ..... -- Carolyn, 13:18:55 05/10/09 Sun
          • I think this is very true, this is Philippa's only experience of sex, and it's scarred her horribly. I think they are both afraid of any physical contact being too much for her. (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:34:16 05/10/09 Sun
            • I know he wouldn't hurt her, if only he believed that himself and they allowed themselves to try a gentle, even tentative, contact. To stay as is, is far too much a strain for both of them, that much is completely evident. (NT) -- Denise, 15:40:44 05/10/09 Sun
  • What did Philippa mean when she said "why will you not weep? Or am I not who I am?" Was this a reference to their complete understanding of one another and their mirroring of ideas and emotions to one another? Does she think that if she is reduced to tears that he must be also? (NT) -- Carolyn, 13:22:34 05/10/09 Sun
    • I think you answered your question, Carolyn, for which I thank you, because that line has always made me wonder a little and now it makes perfect sense. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 13:25:45 05/10/09 Sun
    • Yes, I think you've got it! Makes perfect sense as you have explained itr. (NT) -- Denise, 15:42:08 05/10/09 Sun
    • That's my understanding, Carolyn. And look at the result. It forestalled by very little the end of his self-command, and made her witness to something she could neither comfort nor ease, except by the act of releasing it.... After the first moments, he did not know she was there. (V, pg. 464) (NT) -- Sallie, 17:05:20 05/10/09 Sun
  • I didn't get a chance to comment below, but I shed a tear when the news of Piero Strozzi's death reached Lymond. (NT) -- Lynne, 04:58:51 05/11/09 Mon
    • Yep, the downside of having real historical figures, you can't change their fate. But this also allowed Francis to become a Marshall of France. (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:51:45 05/11/09 Mon

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• And the winner's are......(drum roll, please) -- Lil, 14:14:05 05/09/09 Sat [2]
  Our three books to discuss this summer are:
  
  The Mammy by Brendan O'Carroll with 22% of the votes.
  
  Crow Lake by Mary Lawson with 19% of the votes.
  
  Waiting for Time by Bernice Morgan with 19% of the vote. FYI: This is the sequel to Cape Random/Random Passage
  
  Once I get my hands on these books, I'll publish a discussion schedule and will start recruiting volunteers to help with questions/chapter reviews.
  
  Thanks to all who suggested books and to all who voted!
  

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  Replies:

  • Ordered Crow Lake, have the other two already. Sounds like a fun summer! Count on me for chapter summaries, Nalana. (NT) -- Elaine, 18:16:38 05/09/09 Sat

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• Checkmate, Part 5, ch. 3 -- FranS (), 20:51:08 05/07/09 Thu [14]
  Piero Strozzi "...and heard beside him another voice strongly accented in Italian and belonging to a dark and splendid nobleman in silver-engraved armour with bronze kid buttoned under it."
  The Tour aux Puces, Thionville, France
  "Do you see that tower over the river? The Tour aux Puces? That is where we are to fire to make our breach..."
  
  The French army gathers for an attack on Thionville, but are told to wait for the Duke de guise, thus losing all their advantages. The battle is won at a great cost in lives.
  
  A messenger from the King tells Lymond that the city has fallen to the Duke and the army will now march north through Luxembourg. He remonds Lymond of his duty and sends him the staff of a Marshal of France There are only four and this was Piero Strozzi's, who died during the battle.
  
  It has been two difficult months in Sevigny and Philippa is now able to converse more comfortably with others and have some outside interests and activities. Lymond is disturbed by the roal appointment, so she suggests a visit to Lord Grey in Onzain. They have a serious discussion about the nature of war, loyalty, and honor. Lord Grey advises Philippa to free Lymond "He belongs where he belongs and he will arrive there, no matter how deep you bury him." (meaning?)
  
  Lord Grey and Lymond agree that Austin should go home and that the army is not a good match for him. Lord Grey stuns Lymond with the news in a letter from Austin, that his two missing and captured men, Guthrie and Hoddim, are back with the rest of him men.
  
  It bothers Philippa that she us able to share any emotion with or give comfort to Lymond, but stifles it instead. She can only smile at him.
  

  Last edited by author: Thu May 07, 2009 20:54:07   Edited 1 time.
  [Edit]
  
  Replies:

  • T (NT) -- FranS, 20:55:18 05/07/09 Thu
  • Translations>>>>>> -- FranS, 21:09:19 05/07/09 Thu
  • To answer your question up there, I think that Lord Grey believes that Philippa is purposefully keeping Lymond from soldiering. He's saying no matter what you do to prevent it, he belongs in the world of battle and he'll find his way there. (NT) -- Lil, 08:29:45 05/08/09 Fri
  • At this point in the story it seems that Philippa is ready to be touched again, wants to touch Lymond, but holds back. Is she holding back because she thinks he thinks she's tainted and he doesn't want her anymore? Or is it that she feels he thinks himself guilty over the 'Bailey incident' and won't forgive himself? Or something else? I'm tempted to read through to the end of the book now for answers, if there are any, since I've only been reading a chapter a night to follow along with the discussion and my memory fails me for many details. Aargh! (NT) -- Denise, 09:15:17 05/08/09 Fri
    • I think she's still scared of her own reaction, what might happen if she reaches out for him. Poor child was so traumatized by her experience she doesn't know how to begin. But Lymond clearly sees she is not ready. He always sees the subtle evidence that others miss. (NT) -- Elaine, 09:37:55 05/08/09 Fri
      • You thnk she's afraid she might recoil at his touch, and is afraid of the damage that might do to their tenuous relationship? (NT) -- Denise, 09:46:47 05/08/09 Fri
        • Yes, definitely, if she touches him and he responds, if one thing were to lead to another, she can't handle anymore than tentative touching, and Lymond seems like he is exercising a control that is almost killing him, at this point. Philippa knows this, and knows that it's not fair to touch him unless she is far stronger than she is at present. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 10:05:03 05/08/09 Fri
          • That way, that sunlit, gentle path was set with mines, and had at the end of it a chasm she could not contemplate. So, she hid her impulse, and did not know, because he was better at concealment than she, that he had noticed it. (V, pg. 452) (NT) -- Sallie, 10:18:59 05/08/09 Fri
            • It's funny, I'm home from (paid) work today and trying to tackle a mountain of housework. I put on my headset and started up the CD player, forgetting where I had left off with DOA only to come to the scene where Bree confronts Jamie in the stable about how he has dealt with his own rape - does the anger, fear, uncertaintly about life ever go away. How timely to come across this considering what has occurred in recent chapters in Checkmate. (NT) -- Denise, 11:20:51 05/08/09 Fri
  • Thanks for a great week, Fran...the pictures you found were beautiful! (NT) -- Lil, 13:10:33 05/08/09 Fri
    • Yes, great week Fran! (NT) -- Denise, 14:11:19 05/08/09 Fri
      • Thanks for participating, everyone! It has been a busy week, but I was kind of disappointed tonight when I came in and realized I don't have to post. We went to see Star Trek and I really enjoyed it. Best sci fi movie I've seen in years. (NT) -- FranS, 20:46:49 05/08/09 Fri
        • I can hardly wait. Morgan and I are long time Trekkies!!!!! Great week, Fran. (NT) -- PeggyB, 23:23:38 05/08/09 Fri

  ---

• Checkmate, Part 5, ch. 2 -- FranS, 21:32:39 05/06/09 Wed [25]
  
  He (Adam) sent no warning before him but spent the night at Blois and set out with the sun at his back in the morning..."
  
  Marthe returns and Jerott accepts her back.
  
  Thousands of Protestants of all classes gather to celebrate their faith and some arrests were made. At least one arrest takes out another de Guise rival.
  
  John Elder figures out who's Calvinist among the Commissioners and obtains an introduction to Marthe, who is cool and noncommital to him.
  
  Bailey's belongings, including the chests of money, are taken charge of by "the agent, acting for his principal."
  
  Sybilla has had an inquiry from Kate about Philippa and Adam goes to Sevigny to check on her and Lymond.
  
  Some of the Scottish Commissioners including Richard, were at the Protestant demonstration, and if seen would be in danger.
  
  Archie is at Sevigny. To Adam, Lymond appears stripped down to his essence, with a smile in his clear eyes. They're not interested in worldly topics, were courteous to him, and communicate easily with each other, by words and looks, but there is no laughter, touching, or music. "In Sevigny, there was something so deep and so dangerous that it could barely be felt."
  
  Lymond wants Richard to take Sybilla home for his own safety.
  
  After retiring, Adam observes a tense and emotional encounter between Lymond and Philippa. (What do you think she asks him?)
  
  Upon returning to Paris, Adam tells them all, "For the love of God, leave them alone."
  

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  • Translations>>>>> -- FranS, 21:34:31 05/06/09 Wed
    • Dioscuri>>>>>>> -- FranS, 21:47:46 05/06/09 Wed
  • Regarding your question, I thought Philippa was reliving the awful evening with Bailey and she needed reassurances from Lymond. I can imagine she has had nightmares regarding the incident and seeks solace in his company. (NT) -- Denise, 21:58:06 05/06/09 Wed
  • The sadness in the last chapter was just the tip of the iceberg. This chapter simply hurts. A few weeks ago I had to read the ending of the book again to reassure myself of the outcome, having felt so much despair regarding these two people! (NT) -- Denise, 22:13:07 05/06/09 Wed
  • When Adam was watching that encounter...I think I held my breath while I read the whole thing. I wasn't sure what was happening but I thought Phillipa was trying to soothe Lymond and maybe coax him to rest (it was really late at night)...then...realizing she still couldn’t be with him… started to cry. The forgotten handkerchief was a poignant and so sad moment. How Lymond touched it but left it lay was so symbolic of what he was going through. Up until that moment I didn’t realize how MUCH he was hurting too. (NT) -- Lynne, 04:58:04 05/07/09 Thu
    • Breaks my heart, how they long for each other so deeply and yet must maintain distance like that. (NT) -- Elaine, 06:34:42 05/07/09 Thu
      • I haven't reread this chapter yet, but I recall being somewhat frustrated during the first read. The annulment is not possible, both pending marriages have been called off. He knows they both love each other, why is Lymond still holding back? I kept waiting for him to at least hold Philippa and comfort her, yet he maintains his distance. Is he still in the self-loathing phase? He has called Philippa "my wife" but he doesn't treat her as such. Is he just giving her the time and space to heal??? Somebody help me understand. (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:20:17 05/07/09 Thu
        • Yes, he's giving her space and time. She's not ready. He wants it to be perfect, and as usual seems to know what's best for Philippa, all the while keeping himself in check. I remember wanting him to hold her, also. One would think that if he could use restraint while bathing her, he could use restraint while comforting her as well. If sex is out of the picture for the time being, one might find other ways to demonstrate love and affection. Ah, well ... (NT) -- Elaine, 08:35:26 05/07/09 Thu
          • Often women who have been raped/abused have a very difficult time being touched by anybody -- male or female -- for a very long time after the trauma. That need to reestablish personal space and control over it can be very strong. Many studies have found even couples who have long-standing, strong relationships can take quite some time to get their physical relationship back on track after a sexual assault. The fact Philipa did what she did to save Lymond & his family must only compound the guilt for him, thus making him doubly cautious about invading her space. (NT) -- Carla, 10:12:47 05/07/09 Thu
        • I also think he is feeling the heavy guilt of what has happened, even if she did it by choice. Lymond would hold himself responsible for the situation and would be beating himself up for it. I think he's doing what Elaine said, and punishing himself also. (NT) -- Lil, 08:48:16 05/07/09 Thu
      • Don't have my book in front of me but...is this the Don't have my book in front of me but...is this the chapter where Phillipa seems him swimming? I think Lymond reacted to her 'reaction' thinking it was himself she got upset seeing...when it was the other hairy guy she really had the reaction to. I think Lymond is being extra-specially-careful with her. Their being together…but not touching is so emotional for me…a reader…I can’t imagine being there living it. There’s a tenseness throughout between the two that might snap at any moment from either one of them. (NT) -- Lynne, 09:11:46 05/07/09 Thu
        • The scene at the river comes in a later chapter. So distressing. But very clearly she can't fathom intimacy yet and Lymond's holding back is very smart at this point. Even Philippa does not want to be touched (it comes up in the next chapter...I'm doing summaries so its in my head right now). (NT) -- Carolyn, 11:55:24 05/07/09 Thu
  • Speaking about all the heartache in this chapter… anyone else’s heart snap when Jerrot sees Marthe and says something about an “open mind” and then Marthe says to Jerott..."And an open bed?'... And an open bottle?" He looks at her "with dignity but no guile" and then a bit later says about learning that promises too are pointless. (sniff) (NT) -- Lynne, 15:28:38 05/07/09 Thu
    • Now that you mention it. I liked Jerrot so much in DK, then he started the drinking and mooning over Marthe in PinF; when he shows up in CM the way he does, bitter, married to Marthe, seemingly given up on any of his ideals, only seems to be able to pull it together when Lymond is there to give him structure, I get very annoyed with him. Makes me believe the idea put forth in PinF that he is actually in love with Lymond and hooks up with Marthe as a poor imitation. OK got that off my chest, I feel better now. Oh, one more thing, the only thing that annoys me more is that Marthe married him. I mean, WHY? OK, I'm through now. (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:35:12 05/07/09 Thu
      • To me Jerrot is such a tragic figure. (But I'm very fond of him.) In DK he loses his religion (Hey...that's a song *g*.) And then he loses his illusions of love/wife. He's fiercely stubborn…but honest. A good soldier. He wants to do the right thing…but he makes mistakes on those he trusts and loves. Poor guy. (NT) -- Lynne, 18:18:12 05/07/09 Thu
      • Given how nasty Marthe is most of the time, I really do think Jerott married her because it allowed him to be closer to Lymond (not a sexual attraction to Lymond himself, but a need to be connected to him). Jerott is just a lost soul. At first, back in DK, he thought Lymond was the fool, but now who's the foolish one? (NT) -- Elaine, 18:22:35 05/07/09 Thu
        • I can't help thinking back to DK, when Lymond actually thought he could swim over to the other island at Malta and rescue Oonagh from the invasion. It is Jerrot who stops him. Physically stops him. You so rarely see any individual capable of stopping Lymond from doing something he's set his mind to, I was very impressed with Jerrot at the time, he had a strength of character back then, not just physical. Now he just seems like a shell of what he once was and could be. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:50:42 05/08/09 Fri
  • Even though I know Lymond is hurting...I have to admit to feeling a refreshing pang with all the imagery of … Lymond appearing stripped down to his essence, with a smile in his clear eyes…the clean chamois and lawn cloths (hubba-hub) replacing the velvet and rubies. Then I got to thinking about that aweful garish red velvet getup he wore during the wedding and I wondered…why? I realize he had to spiff it up for that event…but why did DD give me the impression that he over did it? What happened to his impeccable style? Was he trying to piss someone off? Flesh out the bad guys? What? (NT) -- Lynne, 15:38:10 05/07/09 Thu
    • Lymond has demonstrated a fondness for dressing up/disguises throughout the series. Perhaps he was simply acting the part while at court? (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:53:10 05/07/09 Thu
    • I thought it was a protest to the wedding itself and the secret documents that were given to him. He is a patriot at heart and the marriage would spell trouble for Scotland. (NT) -- Carolyn, 18:21:34 05/07/09 Thu
      • I like that theory. It makes sense that the whole affair might of left a bad taste to Lymond...and he literally dressed in flamboyant bad taste style. Cool! (NT) -- Lynne, 10:18:24 05/08/09 Fri
    • It was definitely symbolic. Red = harlot, someone who sells out. (NT) -- Elaine, 18:24:10 05/07/09 Thu
  • Thank Heavens for Adam and his humanity and commonsense. Only if left alone will they both be able to fully heal. (NT) -- Carla, 16:46:11 05/07/09 Thu
    • Yeah, too bad he didn't have the King's ear on that one. Sometimes I think DD had a strong sadistic streak! (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:51:22 05/07/09 Thu

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• Checkmate, Part 5, ch. 1 -- FranS, 22:24:23 05/05/09 Tue [21]
  
  A possibility for Sevigny. "Called Chateau de la Vicomte Vauperreux, this chateau is the only one I've found that is situated on bank of the Loire, between Blois and Chouzy, within easy strolling distance for Phillipa to reach the river!" (from www.dorothydunnett.co.uk.)
  
  Lymond and Philippa are found to have vanished on the appointed day of their annulment. The King complains, Richard searches, Sybilla lies, Catherine weeps, Archie disappears, and Austin is left in the dark. All that is learned is that Philippa had withdrawn and sent ahead all her wealth banked in Paris.
  
  Bailey is found dead in his bed of natural causes.
  
  The Countess of Lennox's secretary, Elder, tired of waiting for a message from an unknown address about a gentleman who had disappeared anyway (?) goes to see Austin Grey.
  
  Sybilla receives a message from Nicholas Applegarth at Sevigny informing her that Lymond and Philippa are there, safe but tired and urges that no visitors come. Included is a sealed message for the King, surrendering all Lymond's offices and holdings, except for Sevigny.
  
  Richard goes to inform Austin, but finds him angry after having been informed prematurly by Elder. An annulment is now impossible. Austin is free to leave, but wants to stay and make sure Philippa is happy.
  
  Elder wants to meet with Marthe.
  
  Piero Strozzi is riding to Sevigny, as the King wants Lymond present for the new campaign.
  
  Strozzi reports that Lymond is not returning, that he seems changed, that they are not talking to each other although always together, and that they are not living as man and wife.
  

  [Edit]
  
  Replies:

  • Thank you so much Lil for doing the posting for me while I was without internet access. Thanks also to the FF and I'm so sorry for the psychic pain I caused her by putting the / in the wrong place! Translations inside>>>>>>> -- FranS, 22:49:26 05/05/09 Tue
    • You are welcome, Fran. Glad to be of assistance! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 09:57:17 05/06/09 Wed
  • Hypothetical question for the group: Would Austin have taken Philippa as his wife if the annulment went forward and he knew about what transpired between Philippa and Bailey? (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:23:33 05/06/09 Wed
    • I personally don't think so. I think image is important to him, and hers would be more tarnished than he could handle. I'm not sure that he's in love with her, just loves the idea of being in love with her (and enjoys making a lot of noise about it too). (NT) -- Denise, 07:27:54 05/06/09 Wed
    • Jumping ahead a bit. In chapter 5 he does know about Bailey (or thinks he knows...John Elder tells Austin all the sordid details ...purely based on assumption) and he is determined to still try to get the marriage annuled on the grounds that Francis misrepresented himself to Philippa (is a Bastard, not who he says he is). He is adamant that he is going to stay in France until he is able to take Phillipa home with him. This makes me think he does want to still marry her. (NT) -- Carolyn, 08:23:10 05/06/09 Wed
      • I haven't read ahead, and it's been too long to remember the details, so maybe he would still marry her, but I still don't think it can be true love. The affections have not been reciprocated, only friendship returned on the part of Philippa. I still think he's about the show of being the big man, and saving Philippa from Lymond. I think the show of being honorable, as opposed to Lymond, is more important than the actual loving marriage part. (NT) -- Denise, 08:47:39 05/06/09 Wed
        • I think Austin really does love her- just because it's not reciprocated doesn't make it less valid- unrequited love is not uncommon. I think it's his tragedy, as Lymond would say, to be caught in the net of grand passion- only he has that love for Philippa and she has it for Lymond. I truly do feel for Austin, right up until the end when he tries to kill Lymond. (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:50:55 05/06/09 Wed
        • Yes, I think Austin would still have married Philippa. But I also believe that event would pose a threat down the line. Austin is already on an emotional descent. (Those of us who have finished the book know where this leads.) Even with Lymond out of the picture, and Philippa as his bride, I contend that Austin would continue his downward spiral and that the marriage would suffer because of Leonard Bailey. Perhaps not go so far as becoming tragic, but still with negative consequences somewhere down the road. Leonard Bailey and Lymond might merge into one very horrid persona that would haunt Austin and impact his view of his wife. (NT) -- Elaine, 09:05:49 05/06/09 Wed
        • I only knew this info because I'm doing my chapter summaries :) (NT) -- Carolyn, 13:45:26 05/06/09 Wed
      • Oops, I had forgotten that he found out. Sorry. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:11:51 05/06/09 Wed
      • What's up with this John Elder? Is he a spoiler for Margaret Lennox? (NT) -- FranS, 13:01:07 05/06/09 Wed
  • I so enjoyed Piero Strozzi's retelling of events about his trip to Sevigny. I wish I had my book in front of me to quote him. Even though the subject was serious… the way he would literally answer a question... provided me much needed amusement during a very tense couple of chapters. (NT) -- Lynne, 08:07:48 05/06/09 Wed
    • I remember being very relieved to hear Piero's report, although somewhat disappointed to learn that P & L weren't living "as man and wife" -- that made me sad at this point. (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:40:20 05/06/09 Wed
      • Yes, me too, very sad. (NT) -- Elaine, 12:43:25 05/06/09 Wed
    • Maybe this one, They talked, each of them to me, but almost never to one another. It is true, of course, when I am there, there is no need for others to coverse, but some of one's friends are not commonly backward." Or earlier, "I take God to record that if the little demoiselle did not look so appealingly, I would have pulled him from his bush of roses with my sword belt, I burn so with jealousy." (NT) -- FranS, 13:09:21 05/06/09 Wed
      • That first quote makes me laugh. I LOL'd rereading this the other night. He's quite a character that Strozzi. *g* (NT) -- Lil, 18:27:19 05/06/09 Wed
      • Fran...Yes!!! Those are some of the quotes. I love how he knows he talks too much. *g* When they questioned him....he was so forthcoming yet evasive at the same time. I thought someone was going to shake him in frustration. Really just great to read!!! (NT) -- Lynne, 04:29:18 05/07/09 Thu
  • As to the photo, sigh, I do love the Loire Valley. If I had to move to France, I think that is the area I would choose. I found a equestrian tour online once that visits the Loire chateaux on horseback....sounds wonderful to me. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:23:12 05/06/09 Wed
  • Is the person Elder has been waiting to hear from, Bailey? If so, then Margaret Lennox must be using him to harm Lymond. (NT) -- FranS, 13:28:54 05/06/09 Wed
    • The way I understand it, LB was hired by the Lennoxes to get documentation/proof of Sybilla's indiscretions and Lymond's bastardy. They wanted to use this information to ruin him and Sybilla too I guess. LB already had a reason to hate the Crawfords (albeit a twisted one) and knowledge of Sybilla's past (having lived at Midculter). I guess that would make him highly motivated (and the obvious choice) to obtain the proof needed. (NT) -- Carolyn, 13:52:33 05/06/09 Wed

  ---

• Pardon the interruption .............. -- PeggyB, 15:20:09 05/06/09 Wed [7]
  Two things....
  
  1. Lynne posted a question on Lymond's Chess Board last week about the Claes Yahoo Group. If anyone can help her out, please pop over to the Chess Board.
  
  2. I had an email from another newbie...YIPPEE!! Tracy is thrilled to have found us, but hasn't used a message board before. So please welcome her. She's just finished Ringed Castle.
  
  That's all for now!
  

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  • Welcome, Tracy- nothing to be nervous about, all of us were newbies to chat boards, once upon a time. My name is Cindy- board name celtgirl, and I first encountered the Lymond Chronicles back in 1994 and have loved them ever since. (NT) -- celtgirl, 16:40:00 05/06/09 Wed
  • Hiya, Tracy and welcome to this very congenial group! (NT) -- Elaine, 17:17:29 05/06/09 Wed
  • Hi Tracy! Welcome! We have another Tracy around here so maybe you can add a last name initial or something so we can keep track. We have a great group here and we hope you jump in on the discussion. (NT) -- Lil, 18:26:15 05/06/09 Wed
  • Welcome Tracy! This is a wonderful place to gather for Lymond talk. (NT) -- Lynne, 18:44:10 05/06/09 Wed
  • And thanks Peggy...I got some info I needed! This is such a helpful and friendly place. (NT) -- Lynne, 18:51:30 05/06/09 Wed
  • Welcome, Tracy, to our group of Dorothy Dunnett fans! (NT) -- Denise, 19:05:45 05/06/09 Wed

  ---

• Summer Reading Poll!! -- Lil, 18:09:39 05/02/09 Sat [12]
  Okay, so lets give this a try. Below is a poll for you to take to tell me what books you'd like to read this summer. Six titles were suggested and are listed below. Additionally, I have created subsequent posts to this one with summaries of each book. So go inside each post and then give your final votes. You should be able to vote on all three at once!
  
  Thanks everyone!
  
  
  

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  • 1)A Gathering Light/Jennifer Donnelly -- Lil, 18:11:32 05/02/09 Sat
  • 2)The Commitments/Roddy Doyle -- Lil, 18:13:02 05/02/09 Sat
  • 3) The Divine Ryans/Wayne Johnston -- Lil, 18:14:05 05/02/09 Sat
  • 4) Crow Lake/Mary Lawson -- Lil, 18:15:00 05/02/09 Sat
  • 5)Waiting for Time/Bernice Morgan -- Lil, 18:15:32 05/02/09 Sat
  • 6) The Mammy/Brendan O'Carroll -- Lil, 18:16:21 05/02/09 Sat
  • Nalana!! "Waiting for Time" and "The Divine Ryans" is not available on amazon nor available on Barnes and Noble. So it might be a difficult to get my hands on those. (NT) -- Noelle, 08:51:50 05/05/09 Tue
    • This was a concern I had about Waiting for Time when we were reading Random Passage. They are difficult to get here in the U.S. Elaine did find that it could be purchased on half.com. But there's only a few. I wasn't aware of the Divine Ryans being difficult to find. (I'll admit to doing quick scans on the amazon.com pages and not really "reading" the part about availability. My bad!). If anyone has any ideas on how to get either of these books please feel free to share. I am not sure if Divine Ryans will be picked, but so far Waiting for Time is in the lead. (NT) -- Lil, 09:09:36 05/05/09 Tue
  • Thanks Lil for doing this! I like how you can view results by province or state - interesting. (NT) -- Tracy, 11:43:14 05/05/09 Tue
    • You can?? Huh, I didn't see that but I hadn't had cawffee yet when I did the poll. And Thank You, Nalana, for organzing this. See your personality test was right, you are the organizer!! (NT) -- Noelle, 12:10:59 05/05/09 Tue
  • I own two of the books listed, and the others are available through my public library so I'm not concerned about our book choice, but I can understand the concern of others. Did you check amazon.ca? Sometimes it offers a different selection. (NT) -- Denise, 07:25:34 05/06/09 Wed

  ---

• Part 4, Chapter 9 -- Lil For Fran, 22:42:52 05/04/09 Mon [57]
  
  Janus sculpture in the Vatican Museum
  
  Lymond enters the Hotel des Spheres, finding it empty and dark. “The perfume was pleasing because it was familiar to him.” (Philippa?) “The other presences, in the silence, were older.” (Who?)
  
  He finds Leonard Bailey dead in a disordered bed, “deprived of life by nothing except its own violence.”
  
  He sees Philippa’s clothing and realizes that this was an appointment in payment for something else. “A tribute to Janus, God of Gates, to prevent that other, deferred payment to Charon.” (meaning ?)
  
  He finds Philippa, unconscious, facedown before the fire in the kitchen next to two scrolls of yellowed paper.
  
  Philippa awakens after Lymond has tenderly washed her and wrapped her in his clothing. They looked at each other without speaking. Then she sleeps again and Lymond tidies up the kitchen and goes upstairs to wash and redress Bailey, removing all traces of Philippa’s presence.
  
  He locks the heavy chests of money in the cellar.
  
  When Philippa awakens, he calls her “wife” and says they’re going to Sevigny.
  

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  • Here is some info I found on Janus...amazing detail related to the story (symbolically)>>> -- Lil, 22:46:30 05/04/09 Mon
    • I was also thinking about Janus as a symbol and in the I was also thinking about Janus as a symbol and in the Companion (which I don't have with me at the moment) where it said about the two faces of Janus one looking to the past and the other to the future. Then I thought about this is the building where Lymond was born (the past)...and also the place where his is in a way 're-born' in that, now he must take care of Phillipa (the future)…hence change is life course. Even though it is surely a trial by fire kind of way to go about it. Phoenix and the flame kind of thing. This illustrates how exacting DD is in every detail. . Then I thought about this is the building where Lymond was born...and also the place where his is in a way 're-born' in that, now he must take care of Phillipa…hence change is life course. Even though it is surely a trial by fire kind of way to go about it. Phoenix and the flame kind of thing. (NT) -- Lynne, 06:13:09 05/05/09 Tue
      • Sorry for the first muddled sentence. Gaff. (NT) -- Lynne, 06:19:19 05/05/09 Tue
      • While looking for something to post, I also read that Janus is related to keys...just like the keys to the Hotel. There are so many layers just to that one comment. (NT) -- Lil, 08:39:09 05/05/09 Tue
        • I just love how he has to literally return to the place of his birth...survive that horror…or what he found there...and then start anew. Such classic symbolism. (NT) -- Lynne, 09:35:54 05/05/09 Tue
  • And here's a bit on Charon from Wiki>>> -- Lil, 22:47:53 05/04/09 Mon
  • I wonder if Lymond finally accepts Philipa as his wife because she is no longer "pure" and therefore not too good for him to touch, or if because he realises all that she has sacrificed for him and understands that her love is real and beyond all measure? In the reference to the gods, I think it's a nod to the idea that with this inoformation, perhaps Lymond will no longer feel the need to kill himself, thereby deferring his payment to Charon. (NT) -- Carla, 05:44:59 05/05/09 Tue
    • I tend to think its the realization of her sacrifice and the depth of her love. I only say this because, although Philippa feels she has joined him in the gutter, Lymond still will not touch her at Sevigny. Not because he sees her as impure but because he is protecting her from his own impurity somehow. (NT) -- Carolyn, 06:13:12 05/05/09 Tue
      • As Elaine, pointed out below. I think Lymond doesn't touch her because he can't touch her without wanting her so passionately that she would be aware of it. He can't just hold and soothe her platonically; but it is Philippa not he that can't stand the thought of sex. (NT) -- susiej, 14:25:56 05/05/09 Tue
        • I'm in agreement. By his impurity I meant both his past actions and his desire for her. There is no doubt that he wants her. He knows it would go too far and Philippa is too damaged right now to even contemplate sex. (NT) -- Carolyn, 15:40:41 05/05/09 Tue
    • I can't imagine he would think her too impure for him, especially since this 'stain' is directly related to her love of him. (NT) -- Denise, 07:02:35 05/05/09 Tue
      • I don't think he would think her TOO impure for him, just that now she is no longer pure it would somehow not be as bad for her if he were to touch her (even if not in the immediate aftermath of her rape). (NT) -- Carla, 10:51:33 05/05/09 Tue
    • Philippa's purity isn't at issue here. As Carolyn said, Lymond now fully realizes the depth of her love for him and the level to which she'd fall for his sake. (Sadly, he also realizes that she will be regarded as damaged goods to other men, and therefore may not be able to marry. But this is not part of the reason why he takes his wife to Sevigny.) He is so attuned to her mental and emotional state at this point, that he does not allow himself to touch her at Sevigny knowing that he will not be able to stop himself, and that she is in too delicate a state as yet. I believe this tragic event has forced Lymond to suspend his self-loathing in order to focus on his beloved's needs, which fits in perfectly with Janus and Charon. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:44:41 05/05/09 Tue
      • The way Lymond has to withhold any form of touching just makes my heart shiver. There's something so tragic...yet...romantic...in knowing how strong his passion for Phillipa must be. Such a torrent of emotion. Mercy, this sure does pull on one's heartstrings! (NT) -- Lynne, 07:56:29 05/05/09 Tue
    • In addition to what has been said above, I felt that Lymond had tried to protect Philippa by staying away from her and annulling the marriage. But, like Christian and Oonagh before her, she is in danger through association with him. So he takes her under his complete protection. (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:12:06 05/05/09 Tue
      • Yes, and when he finds out that Philippa is not going to marry Austin that's one of times he 'colors from his neck up'. He was twarted in his plan to secure....to protech her... her future. All his ducks were not willing to line up in a row. (NT) -- Lynne, 09:39:23 05/05/09 Tue
  • ??Question??? As I read (and actually found some of the translations within) I started to notice a lot of references to 'trees'. Anyone else see this? Now I’m wondering about the hidden symbolism. If I had my book with me, I could give some examples. (NT) -- Lynne, 06:17:36 05/05/09 Tue
    • Thinking aloud...of course there is the underlying current of a "family tree" throughout the books too. (NT) -- Lynne, 06:29:30 05/05/09 Tue
      • So true. In both the LC and HoN. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:45:11 05/05/09 Tue
  • When I first read this chapter, I so much wanted to believe that Philippa had killed Bailey and that he hadn't succeeded in raping her. (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:13:23 05/05/09 Tue
    • On the topic of the rape, as much as we hate to see it happen, I also think it's that 'watershed' moment that had to happen, in order for them to eventually be together. Otherwise those annulment papers would have been signed the very next day, and Philippa and Lymond would have gone their separate ways. (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:18:15 05/05/09 Tue
      • I agree. Unlike in other books I've read, I felt that although hard to accept, the rape was necessary to keep the story moving. With Lymond it needed to be a position in which he must rescue her. He wasn't able to do that for Oonagh or Christian, but finally he can help Philippa. (NT) -- Lil, 08:43:40 05/05/09 Tue
      • When Archie urged Philippa to 'break him', referring to Lymond, I don't think she had a rape in mind, but that's exactly what it has done. It's laid him bare, and now the rebuilding of their lives can begin. (NT) -- Denise, 08:48:58 05/05/09 Tue
      • Absolutely, this event had to take place in order for them to have each other ... eventually. (NT) -- Elaine, 09:23:16 05/05/09 Tue
      • Not that it changes the outcome, but did any of you see the encounter between Philippa and LB as not rape but consentual? Not that Philippa wanted to have sex with the pig but that she was given an ultimatum and made the decision to allow this act to happen. For some reason, this is how I see it. Maybe thats just my brain's way of making this encounter a bit less horrific for Philippa. When Lymond enters the bedroom he sees her clothing laid aside and observes .."the signs, not of a molestation, but of a reckoning formally appointed and now paid to the limit". He gave her the chance to have the papers if she would go to bed with him. It was still an act of violence and repugnance, but perhaps not an attack. (NT) -- Carolyn, 09:33:49 05/05/09 Tue
        • See Elaine's comments below. (NT) -- Denise, 09:36:10 05/05/09 Tue
        • Yes, exactly how I see it. (NT) -- Elaine, 10:10:13 05/05/09 Tue
    • The first time I read Checkmate (in Feb) I was shocked about the rape..it caught me off guard...this time around...I saw the sexual allusions in Phillippa's first encounter with Bailey. So I'm wondering...(and sorry about all my recent questions) but...if she indeed "sacrificed" herself...knowing that he probably would take advantage of her when she went there....why didn't she arm herself? I also hoped she had done something to off Bailey. What exactly caused his death? Natural causes...but too bad Philippa didn't slip him a 'mickey' that couldn't be detected. There are herbs…. (NT) -- Lynne, 08:47:06 05/05/09 Tue
      • I think she smothered him. The pillow was well indented so that's my reasoning for thinking suffocation. (NT) -- Denise, 08:50:37 05/05/09 Tue
        • Oh yea, the indented pillow! You know, I was thinking that the pillow Lymond noted was a way for him to see that there had been two people in the bed. It never occurred to me that she might have suffocated Bailey with it . I'd like to think she did something. (NT) -- Lynne, 09:26:31 05/05/09 Tue
          • I think he died of natural causes..."...dead through no human agency, deprived of life by nothing except its own violence." (NT) -- Carolyn, 10:27:20 05/05/09 Tue
            • I thought that a natural death was what it looked like, but maybe there was some help along the way. I can't remember if anything else was revealed in later chapters regarding his death. The indented pillow stood out as a detail of some importance, so suffocation is where my mind took the supposed evidence. (NT) -- Denise, 11:22:41 05/05/09 Tue
              • I just cant see Philippa being able to over power a man that muscular and large. It would take a great deal of prolonged strength to smother someone. She is so much smaller and physically much weaker. (NT) -- Carolyn, 11:41:41 05/05/09 Tue
                • I think the indented pillow is evidence of her laying in that bed. (NT) -- Elaine, 11:56:55 05/05/09 Tue
      • Ladies, you will likely disagree with me, but I cannot use the word 'rape' to describe what happens in this chapter. Her clothes and shoes were neatly arranged. The author uses the word 'appointment' in her description. Philippa was not raped; it was consensual. She did indeed sacrifice herself, quid pro quo. When it's consensual, it can't be called rape. Bailey was likely brutish and horrid, but Philippa appears to have agreed to sex beforehand. (NT) -- Elaine, 09:20:27 05/05/09 Tue
        • Yes, on my second reading of this chapter has me thinking that she knew what was in store. (How could she not have been a nervous wreck! I would have.) But why not bring something to protect herself with? I guess if she didn't come willingly...Bailey would have nixed the whole gig. Kind of like Jamie and BJ. (Shudder at the thought!) Do you think Lymond knows that Philippa knew this would happen to her??? Or does he think she just got caught up in a bad situation? (NT) -- Lynne, 09:32:02 05/05/09 Tue
          • Yes, I think upon finding the bedroom scene as it was, and then finding Philippa clutching those papers, Lymond knew that his wife had made a deal with Bailey. And Bailey must have been so pleased with himself at first, and how smug, realizing that he would be the one to defile Lymond's beautiful wife. What a despicable human being. (NT) -- Elaine, 10:09:30 05/05/09 Tue
            • Oh it's so tragic! Yes..the papers and the clothes. Notice how Bailey’s were strewn around…he couldn’t probably believe his good luck. You explained it great....Bailey reveling in defiling Lymond's desirable and untouched wife! Ugh! How Lymond kept a cool head and did what he had to do. It's what we love about him...but at what cost? How tormenting for him. My heart just breaks!!! (NT) -- Lynne, 10:29:44 05/05/09 Tue
            • Yes, I always thought that another reason, Philippa made this bargain was to prove to Lymond that she wasn't too good for him, If he could sacrifice himself to the likes of that Agra Mora to save their skins, she could do this for him. But then, Philippa for all her strength didn't have the ability to disconnect as Lymond did- she's too warm, too uncalloused. And it was her suffering that eventually broke through Lymond's icy veneer and left him bare. So yes, sadly this had to happen. (NT) -- susiej (), 14:30:36 05/05/09 Tue
          • Oh Lynne, i hadn't noticed the Jamie and BJ connection- very interesting! I've seen other similarities but hadn't caught this one. (NT) -- susiej, 14:33:56 05/05/09 Tue
        • Goodness, but I have never thought of it this way, but I do see your point. I may have to look over the chapter again. (NT) -- Denise, 09:34:53 05/05/09 Tue
        • I don't disagree at all. See my comments above. I think she consented to this. (NT) -- Carolyn, 09:36:03 05/05/09 Tue
        • I don't disagree either, just that it was a rape of the spirit, because most certainly she did it to get those papers, but still it really horribly traumatized her in the end. (NT) -- celtgirl, 09:38:09 05/05/09 Tue
          • I certainly agree with you, Cindy, in terms of Philippa's emotional/spiritual rape. My post referred only to the legal definition, which shows the depth of Philippa's love. Here she was, unable to have the man she loved and was coincidentally married to, but was willing to soil herself with this despicable creature, Bailey, and perhaps never be marriageable. In terms of heroic deeds, Philippa matches her husband. (NT) -- Elaine, 10:16:14 05/05/09 Tue
        • Aha, that's what I get for posting without rereading first. I forgot about the neatly arranged clothing. Didn't think about suffocation, I assumed the old goat had a heart attack. (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:20:20 05/05/09 Tue
  • Just a note on the scent that Lymond smells...I think it might be something related to Sybilla. He seems to have scent related memories of his mother, so I guess that's who I thought of when I read that part. And observation about Lymond>>> -- Lil, 08:37:05 05/05/09 Tue
    • That is a huge asset for Mike to be able to 'compartmentalize', a sanity saver. Other professions that are stressful, ie. ER doctor, oncologist, police officer, have to do the same to be able to live a normal life in the emotional upheaval that can be their daily jobs. Lymond is a master at separating emotion from the job at hand. (NT) -- Denise, 08:46:33 05/05/09 Tue
    • Interesting about the scent relating to Sybilla. It was a home of hers...I originally assumed he smelled Philippa's scent. Either way....they are the two women that mean most to him. Speaking of cleaning up after heffer-Bailey...what about what must have gone throught Lymond's mind (and senses) as he cleaned up Philippa! He'd not touched her much before then. How heart wrending!!!! (NT) -- Lynne, 09:45:17 05/05/09 Tue
  • With all the horror of this chapter, I think it is hearing Lymond call Philippa "my wife" that is singularly indicative of the transformation he undergoes here. Gotta be one of my top favorite lines from this series: "Come, my wife .... We are going to Sevigny." (NT) -- PeggyB, 14:32:09 05/05/09 Tue
    • Oh yes, that one brief line says so much. (NT) -- Elaine, 14:58:34 05/05/09 Tue
    • Yes, that part warmed my heart. I think that's the first time he referred to her as his wife with conviction and love. (NT) -- Denise, 15:49:09 05/05/09 Tue
  • Question What does this line mean? "Let every godly man close the mouth of his stomach, lest he be disturbed". I would have posted earlier but I didn't have my book at work. (NT) -- Denise, 15:53:16 05/05/09 Tue
    • Haven't the slightest idea. But I've learned one thing really is true - absolutely everything can be found on the internet. Click. (NT) -- Elaine, 16:04:04 05/05/09 Tue
      • Okay, I gather now that it more or less means 'this is going to make you vomit.' (NT) -- Elaine, 16:06:32 05/05/09 Tue
        • Thanks, I hadn't thought to look THAT up on the 'net! (NT) -- Denise, 16:22:44 05/05/09 Tue
          • Crazy, isn't it? How did we live before the internet? (NT) -- Elaine, 18:18:43 05/05/09 Tue

  ---

• Checkmate, Part 4, chapter 7 -- FranS, 09:32:48 05/03/09 Sun [17]
  http://edsphotoblog.com/wp-content/photos/450px/0211_notre_dame.jpg>
  Cathedral of Nortre Dame
  
  Checkmate, Part 4, chapter 7
  
  Preparations continue for the wedding of the Dauphin of France and the young Queen of Scotland.
  
  Philippa chafes at the restrictions placed on her to keep her from Lymond.
  
  Philippa guesses that Sybilla is coming to realize the “full dimensions” of the relationship between herself and Lymond.
  
  No message has come from Leonard Bailey which has become the most important thing in Philippa’s life.
  
  The Scottish Commissioners decide not to act on the information Lymond has given them about Queen Mary’s secret treaties with the French, essentially giving them Scotland if she dies without heirs which is a good bet since the Dauphin is impotent, due to no concrete evidence that they are true and the earlier binding marriage contracts that now must be fulfilled.
  
  The wedding takes place amid much pomp and circumstance. As the wedding party progresses through Paris, a message from Bailey is pressed in Philippa’s hand.
  

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  • I'm out of town and if anyone can correct my picture html, I would appreciate it. It's supposed to be a picture of Notre Dame. Lil will post for me for Mon. and Tues. Translations and definitions inside>>>>>>>> -- FranS, 09:43:18 05/03/09 Sun
  • (NT) -- Denise, 11:03:10 05/03/09 Sun
  • Font Fairy (NT) -- FF, 11:06:17 05/03/09 Sun
    • (NT) -- FF again...., 11:07:19 05/03/09 Sun
      • geez, why won't it work?? (NT) -- Frustrated FF, 11:09:28 05/03/09 Sun
  • Cathedral of Notre Dame, above. What ran through my mind while reading this chapter was the poverty of the common man compared to royalty. This wedding was even low key in comparison to other recent French nuptials. While in Russia I saw the opulant palaces of the Hermitage and Catherine Palace and heard of the toils of the commoner and began to understand why there were so many assassinations of Tsars. It's difficult to see how they can flaunt wealth while so many others starve. (NT) -- Denise, 11:07:34 05/03/09 Sun
    • Hope this closes bold font. (NT) -- Denise, 11:08:54 05/03/09 Sun
      • thanks Denise! This FF was getting F-ing Frustrated! LOL! (NT) -- FF, 11:10:16 05/03/09 Sun
    • And that applies to other cultures as well. Take, for instance, Versailles. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:44:35 05/04/09 Mon
  • I just hate that Philippa is now at the whim of Bailey. He's such a creepy nasty man. Knowing what's coming, I really wish she could have found another way to help Lymond....her sacrifices are so immense for him and his family. (NT) -- Lil, 15:03:58 05/03/09 Sun
    • Why does DD make the women suffer so much in this series????? (NT) -- PeggyB, 19:06:04 05/03/09 Sun
      • The men suffer as well. Lymond and Jerrot (and even Richard) have their demons and strife. DD is an awesome author who knows how to up the tension and create conflict. Reading her books from a wannabe writer’s pov is quite humbling to say the least. I admire how she is not afraid to put her characters and us through the wringer. (NT) -- Lynne, 05:26:00 05/05/09 Tue
  • ???Question??? I realize Leonard Bailey is being paid to gather damaging info on Lymond...but does anyone have a clue why is so bent to ruin Lymond and Sibilla? What did they do to him? I'm just trying to figure out his deep motivation...other than greed....if there is one. (NT) -- Lynne, 05:30:48 05/05/09 Tue
    • I'm no expert but I'll take a stab at it. LB's sister, Honoria Bailey was the first wife of Francis Crawford I. They had Gavin together. LB lived in that home. Not sure what happened to Honoria but Francis I went on to >>>>>> -- Carolyn, 06:03:22 05/05/09 Tue
      • Thanks Carolyn!!! That really helps my understanding of Bailey...and it does make a sense of sorts…though he is still twisted. I totally missed that his sister was Francis Crawford I's first wife. So now I'm trying to remember how she (his sister) died? And it would make sense why Bailey had formed a grudge towards Sibilla...especially, if he noted that the Francis I favored Sibilla in ways he never did the sister. Gosh! Everything is so inter-related. (NT) -- Lynne, 07:52:13 05/05/09 Tue
        • Didn't Bailey say he was ill treated at Midculter and eventually kicked out? I can't recall by whom. (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:17:00 05/05/09 Tue

  ---

• Part 4, Chapter 8 -- Lil - for Fran, 19:09:42 05/03/09 Sun [10]
  Posting a little early - have a busy day on Monday
  
  
  The Palais de Justice
  
  A lavish banquet and entertainments follow the wedding ceremony. After the meal, Philippa disappears, along with a cloak. Lymond learns she had sent notice to release four heavy boxes to someone named Janus, who would call for them.
  
  Lymond finds that only his mother might know the address of where Philippa has gone. She gives it to him, telling him it’s where he was born, on the Street of the Cherries. Rushing to get there, he is delayed and hampered at every turn.
  
  Lymond finds and enters the house where he was born.
  

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  • Translations>>> -- Lil - For Fran, 19:10:59 05/03/09 Sun
  • Ugh, what a horrible chapter. Sob, sob. (NT) -- susiej, 12:05:26 05/04/09 Mon
  • I could crack Richard upside the head for the delay in Lymond's exit! MYOB Richard! (NT) -- Denise, 13:23:21 05/04/09 Mon
    • Wanna borrow my shillelagh? (btw, I really should pick one up while in Ireland *g*) (NT) -- PeggyB, 14:56:37 05/04/09 Mon
      • Try explaining THAT when you come back through U.S. Customs! I don't know how they treat Americans, but every U.S. Customs person I've dealt with has treated me as if I was some sort of drug-smuggling criminal, even when I was VERY pregnant and with a toddler in tow. (NT) -- Carla, 17:21:49 05/04/09 Mon
        • I have actually found the Canadian ones worse to deal with for some reason. In Vancouver I always feel like a criminal. I did get pulled out of line last time, because my stupid comb showed up looking like a lethal weapon. The man was holding up my bag and saying 'who does this belong to?' I was quaking inside but had to own up. Then he just said 'so, you're the troublemaker are you?" and then just chatted and laughed while he got me to open the bag. (NT) -- celtgirl, 17:29:08 05/04/09 Mon
          • I should have added that the Canadian ones are usually jerks, too. I think the power of it all goes to their heads. (NT) -- Carla, 19:05:13 05/04/09 Mon
  • This is definitely one of those tension-filled chapters, where you can feel the dread building- especially as we go from the glittery, overwhelming wedding celebrations to the utter and rather ominous quiet of the Hotel des Spheres. (NT) -- celtgirl, 15:53:07 05/04/09 Mon
  • I'm finally caught up...and I posted two quesitons for the chapters six and seven...if anyone cares to take a swing at them. (NT) -- Lynne, 05:35:01 05/05/09 Tue

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• Checkmate- Part IV- Chapter Six -- celtgirl (), 20:21:05 04/30/09 Thu [16]
  
  
  -Lymond is confronted by Richard, Austin, Adam and Jerott when he returns to the Hotel d'Hercule.
  
  -Lymond learns that Philippa has broken off any plans for a marriage to Austin. Upon hearing the news he colours from '...his throat to his hair.' (Have we ever seen the man colour up before?) Adam is the only one who seems to notice, however.
  
  -Lymond warns Austin not to betray too much of what Philippa confided to him.
  
  -Richard accuses Lymond of merely wanting Philippa.
  
  -Lymond proposes that he sign the annulment papers the day after the royal wedding and that Austin remove Philippa to England the following day.
  
  -Richard declares his intention to guard Lymond, even unto sleeping in his room with him. To which Lymond replies- 'That I baulk at. The rest you can have. One cock per pen is enough.'
  
  -Lymond tells Austin that- 'If...Philippa has lived her childish fantasies through me, she has a great deal that is more commendable to discover in you, and take pleasure in. I have a respect for her as great as yours, I should like you to believe.'
  
  -After Austin leaves the room Lymond shows the three remaining men some papers that have come into his possession.
  
  -The author of the papers is Queen Mary and in said papers she is handing Scotland over to France.
  
  -The papers state that should the young Queen die childless, the King of France, present or future, should have the rule of Scotland until such time as the Kingdom of Scotland makes a payment of one million pounds in gold.
  
  -A third paper states that any other dispositions the Queen may make in the future are to be considered as 'agreements to which she has been constrained entirely against her wish, will and intention.'
  
  -Lymond adds- 'It remains only to add that the Dauphin is impotent.'
  
  -Lymond points out that should the Earl of Arran get wind of this there is likely to be an open rebellion and if the Catholic forces were to win, the Earl of Lennox would be a strong contender for the throne.
  
  -Richard, however, is all for cancelling the wedding and having Mary returned to Scotland.
  
  -Lymond points out that this would cause not only a civil war but also a war with France.
  
  -Lymond finally convinces Richard that the knowledge of the papers must be kept secret amongst the Commissioners.
  
  -After Richard departs to meet with his fellow Commissioners, Lymond asks if anyone-Jerott- knows a strumpet, who doesn't have the pox and would stay in his room long enough to dissuade Richard from occupying it.
  
  -Adam sees that Lymond has another migraine.
  
  -the verse translation is worth reading, so I will tuck it inside the first reply.
  
  -The chapter ends with this exchange:
  
  'You never married, Adam?'
  He had been startled. 'No.'
  'Then don't,' Lymond had said, the words trailing through his muffling hands. 'It makes for very long nights.'
  
  So now Adam touched the comte de Sevigny's arm and said, 'Come. We shall see if Archie can make a short night of it for you.'
  
  Q. Why, do you think, is Lymond so certain the Dauphin is impotent?
  

  Last edited by author: Thu April 30, 2009 23:02:19   Edited 3 times.
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  • Verse translation (we only hear Lymond quote the first four lines, but I put the whole thing inside- because DD is always as much about what isn't said, as what is.) >>> -- celtgirl (), 20:27:23 04/30/09 Thu
    • Simply beautiful! Such a shame he won't allow himself to express this love to Philippa. (NT) -- Denise, 21:36:09 04/30/09 Thu
    • What a beautiful verse. It's hard to believe he feels unworthy of Philipa when he's capable of expressing (and meaning) such sentiments. (NT) -- Carla, 05:35:41 05/01/09 Fri
    • *sigh* (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:34:19 05/01/09 Fri
    • wow....beautiful (NT) -- Lil, 09:04:04 05/01/09 Fri
  • With Richard it's 'same old, same old' with his mistrust of Francis, and Adam and Jerott are his stalwart friends. Some things don't easily change! (NT) -- Denise, 21:43:52 04/30/09 Thu
  • The impotent Dauphin question. Francis (how ironic is it that the Dauphin shares our hero's name?) was a sickly child. In fact, he died only two years after this marriage. Inside for what is said on Wikipedia >>>>>>>>> -- PeggyB, 22:40:29 04/30/09 Thu
    • Oh, I'm sure Lymond would have someone inside who could tell him of the Dauphin's 'deformity'. Interesting. (NT) -- Denise, 07:33:13 05/01/09 Fri
    • It's not like the man's testicles were his "own" with all the people assisting with dressing him and bathing him, as I imagine there were with him as the heir. Someone had to know and disgression is not always there in the servants mind. (NT) -- Lil, 09:07:25 05/01/09 Fri
      • Exactly. Remember the high honor it was to attend the King's toilette (as we saw through DG). Certainly his son would be similarly attended. (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:20:02 05/01/09 Fri
  • That "one cock per pen" line cracked me up. It's really sad that Richard thinks that Lymond needs to be watched at all times like some sort of deviant. The man has intense control of himself at all times - Richard knows that because of all the interactions they have had in the past....or maybe he just thinks Lymonds some heartless fiend? It's sad to see Richard thinks so little of Lymond. (NT) -- Lil, 09:10:08 05/01/09 Fri
  • Sorry for the interruption....REMINDER: If you have summer reading titles you would like to recommend for this Board, they are due tomorrow! Please email your recommendations directly to>>> -- Lil, 11:12:50 05/01/09 Fri
  • Thanks for a great week, Cindy. Your summaries were perfect and the pictures just gorgeous. Makes me want to wander the streets of Paris "collecting" statues :) (NT) -- Carla, 08:54:44 05/03/09 Sun
    • Thanks, Carla- 'twas my pleasure. :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 11:13:26 05/03/09 Sun
  • ???Question:??? What exactly is Archie giving Lymond to help him sleep? Some kind of opiate (Laudanum)? Not Opium...surely...that would start his addiction all over...right? We are not told exactly are we? (NT) -- Lynne, 05:17:01 05/05/09 Tue

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• Checkmate- Part IV- Chapter Five -- celtgirl, 19:53:04 04/29/09 Wed [16]
  
  
  
  -As the chapter opens we find poor Philippa immersed, yet again, in endless wedding preparations.
  
  -The largest army ever raised in His Majesty's reign begins to gather and to eventually muster at Verdun.
  
  -Rumour has it that Catherine d'Albon is refusing to marry Lymond.
  
  -Philippa receives a letter from Sir Henry Sidney and enclosed is the paper Leonard Bailey had in a bank in England- this paper too is blank.
  
  -We find Philippa alone in her rooms '...bereft of judgement and confidence.' - when our plucky heroine is without those two qualities we know things are in a bad way, indeed. :)
  
  -She remembers the hour of holding Lymond in the extremity of his sickness and thinks that- 'Afterwards there was no harvest for the long aching nights: no recollection of the geometry of a lissom back, or of the firmness and warmth of filmed lawn under her steadying fingers. And Francis, she supposed, must be empty-handed as she was.'
  
  -The betrothal ceremony between the Queen and the Dauphin takes place.
  
  -We find out that Philippa has hired a thief to search the Hotel des Spheres and that he has had no success in finding any papers on the premises.
  
  -She does learn, however, that Madame Roset is no longer in residence at the Hotel des Spheres.
  
  -Philippa runs into the odious John Elder, the Lennox secretary, and has a rather unpleasant chat with him.
  
  -Adam confirms that Catherine has withdrawn from the marriage.
  
  -Philippa sends Bailey a message of 'open supplication' along with an emerald pendant.
  
  -Philippa goes to see Austin and to tell him she can never marry him.
  
  -Austin drags Philippa to Sybilla's room, where both Sybilla and Richard are present, and says- 'Your son is striving to make of this lady his whore. Do you approve, or are you prepared to try and prevent it?'
  

  [Edit]
  
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  • On the Austin front, I do understand this is the woman he loves and he's trying to fight for her, but I really do wish people would piss off and leave Francis alone occasionally instead of constantly ascribing the basest of motives to him. Technically, Philipa is his wife for heaven's sake, she's admitted she loves him, so give over. There's my little rant for the day. (NT) -- Carla, 05:42:09 04/30/09 Thu
    • Well said, Carla. (NT) -- Carolyn, 06:29:52 04/30/09 Thu
    • I was planning on saying the same thing, but you said it much better :). How is she a whore when she sleeps with her husband who she loves and is loved by? Austin is jealous and upset that he's lost the woman he wants and is making a stink to see if it will get him anywhere. (NT) -- Denise, 06:46:45 04/30/09 Thu
      • I thought that the whore from Austin comment comes from the appearance Lymond is set upon displaying to the masses…to Phillipa…meaning that he is seemingly not interested in Philippa as a wife…seems (to the general public, not those close to see his ‘real’ feelings) that he actively wants the divorce and is set upon Catherine…therefore (again to the casual observer) he may seem if he does show interest in Phillipa it would be of a carnal nature only, thus using Phillipa as such “whore” and not for other noble reasons. But again, all this to the casual general public…not to those of us who are reading these books. I think Austin spouts this viewpoint, for his own advantage and case for wanting Phillipa for himself. In the end he is still a pill. (NT) -- Lynne, 10:26:20 05/01/09 Fri
    • Austin hatred for Lymond is starting to overcome his senses. He is on a downhill road, and the momentum is only going to increase now. (NT) -- E, 07:13:20 04/30/09 Thu
      • Lymond does have a way of bringing out the passion in folks, eh? (NT) -- PeggyB, 07:45:16 04/30/09 Thu
    • It was very much a temper tantrum to me - lashing out because he's upset about losing Philippa. I can understand that completely, but the way he deals with it is just hurtful. Unrequited love can bring out the ugliness in a person. (NT) -- Lil, 08:46:15 04/30/09 Thu
  • Do we ever figure out why Catherine withdrew from the marriage? I can't remember? was it because of Philippa or something else? (maybe its in upcoming chapters) (NT) -- Lil, 09:17:40 04/30/09 Thu
    • I haven't reread this chapter yet, I had forgotten she withdrew this early, I was thinking it was after Lymond took P to Sevigny. I'm hoping it was because of the love between Philippa and Lymond, it's about time that one of the foursome got it right, eh? (NT) -- PeggyB, 09:37:13 04/30/09 Thu
  • I have a quick question about the previous chapter. When L says the P something to the effect of "....every woman after Eve except you" what does he mean? Clueless here. Help me out ladies. (NT) -- Carolyn, 10:13:42 04/30/09 Thu
    • Eve got Adam to do her bidding rather than what was "right" and, to use Lymond's wording "honorable." IMHO, he's saying every woman since would have her man put her wishes ahead of what is honorable....except for Philippa. Reading on it appears that she is trying to bring him to her through honor rather than for her own vanity. Anyone else wanna jump in here before I dig too deep of a hole??? (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:23:08 04/30/09 Thu
      • That was my take on it too. Of course, I think "honour" is greatly over-rated in many instances and what men feel/believe is honourable is not necessarily the same as what women feel/believe is honourable. (NT) -- Carla, 10:28:09 04/30/09 Thu
      • I think you're dead on, Peggy. That's how I've always understood this too- that he is saying all other women would put their wishes/needs etc before their lover's honour, but Philippa actually values his honour more than she does her own wants and needs. (NT) -- celtgirl, 10:28:22 04/30/09 Thu
        • He really does put Philippa on a pedestal, doesn't he? (NT) -- PeggyB, 11:00:06 04/30/09 Thu
          • In a way, I think she deserves it. For the most part she really has his best interests at heart since she realized who he was (versus her thoughts on him when she was younger). (NT) -- Lil, 16:12:11 04/30/09 Thu

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