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Part II, Chapter 4 -- Elaine, 06:23:00 04/09/09 Thu [11]

St. Clare, born Chlara Offreduccio

Nostradamus

~ Much of this chapter is told through Philippa, revealing her poignant and complex feelings for Lymond, and, ever the Somerville she was raised to be, her attempts to extinguish the flame in her heart. We also learn the true reason why she doggedly pursues Lymond's background.

~ Queen Mary of Scotland requests Philippa serve in her court.

~ We learn that Marthe's mother, Beatris, was the unmarried daughter of the Dame de Doubtance. Lymond speculates that Beatris was also his own mother.

~ One of the three people who signed Sybilla's statement about the births of Francis and Eloise, a Renee' Jourda, is still alive.

~ Lymond asks for Philippa's pledge that she will desist from seeking any further information about his parentage. Philippa refuses.

~ The chapter ends with Lymond planning a trip, and Archie expressing his frustration with his master, yet again.

Q1) Was there anything new revealed to you as you read Philippa's inner conversation in this chapter?

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Replies:
- My favorite line from this chapter: Though she combed the earth and searched through the smoke of the galaxies there was no being she wanted but this, who was not and should not be for Philippa Somerville. My heart aches for her. (NT) -- Elaine, 06:24:18 04/09/09 Thu
  - Yes, I really feel for Philippa. She finally knows for certain where her heart lies, and that pathway is closed to her. While reading this chapter I was doing the "what only" statements we do to make ourselves crazy. So much angst could have been avoided if they had only been honest with each other! (NT) -- Denise, 07:20:38 04/09/09 Thu
  - That's my favorite line as well, Elaine. What struck me in this chapter was Mary Fleming's observation. They disliked one another. It was painful to watch. (V, pg. 136) Lymond and Philippa's efforts to suppress and conceal their powerful feelings for each other gave the appearance (to a very astute woman, I might add) of disdain. (NT) -- Sallie (), 11:46:41 04/09/09 Thu
    - I think they were trying so hard to appear detached and having to hold themselves so tightly in check they must have given off a terrible aura of strain. (NT) -- Carla, 11:53:42 04/09/09 Thu
      - It's heartbreaking, isn't it? (NT) -- Sallie, 11:57:29 04/09/09 Thu
    - Yes, that line was really interesting. I always enjoy getting the view from someone else's perspective. (NT) -- Elaine, 12:06:38 04/09/09 Thu
- I wonder how many times Archie's wanted to just club Lymond upside the head? *g* I'm sorry I don't have much more to offer today. I am working through my discussion responsibilties for next week. :-) (NT) -- Lil, 17:59:16 04/09/09 Thu
Part II, Chapter 2 -- Elaine (), 14:19:09 04/06/09 Mon [29]

The Cardinal of Lorraine

~ The chapter opens at the Hotel Betourne, where a protestant service is taking place and in which Marguerite de St. Andre is in attendance.

~ Violence erupts in the streets as the congregants attempt to escape their Catholic pursuers.

~ The (apparent) Cardinal of Lorraine appeals to the raging crowd to calm their tempers and allow the souls of the heathen to be converted rather than condemned to death.

~ We learn about a few of the escapades that Lymond was involved in during his youth at the College of St. Barbe through his cohort, Moses.

~ Following a harrowing get-away and a frightening sojourn at the College of St. Barbe, the Marechale and her daughter are returned safely home.

Q1) Did Catherine's view of Lymond change after the rescue? Why/why not?

Q2) Did the Madama de Marechale's view of Lymond change after the rescue? Why/why not?

Q3) Did you fall even more in love with Lymond after the rescue? [A purely rhetorical question. ;-)]

Q4) Any thoughts about those horns of unicorns?

Last edited by author: Mon April 06, 2009 15:16:02 Edited 1 time.
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Replies:
- Q1. Catherine was abrupt and mildly hostile to Lymond prior to the rescue. She knew him only by reputation. During the rescue, L showed all his most dashing qualities; bravery, humor, musicality, ability to deceive and think up a great plan with only minutes to prepare. He was the dashing hero...how could she not start to fall for him...then there was his prayer which obviously melted catherine's heart. (NT) -- Carolyn, 14:55:28 04/06/09 Mon
- Q2. IMHO, the rescue did change Madame's view of L too. No longer a conquest. She is taking him seriously as a potential husband for Catherine. He was willing to sacrifice everything to save her and she perhaps now respects him as a man...not just another conquest. She really shows her age during the evening and perhaps begins to feel mildly embarassed for having bedded this young, athletic, charming man. She can not compete with Catherine so she might as well champion her daughter's marital cause. (NT) -- Carolyn, 15:02:35 04/06/09 Mon
  - I think you're spot on here, Carolyn. (NT) -- Carla, 15:46:16 04/06/09 Mon
- Oops, forgot the translations. >>> -- Elaine, 15:15:25 04/06/09 Mon
- Q1) Without doubt. She saw him as gallant, selfless, intelligent, charming, gracious, inventive and really, who would not be slightly enamored of a good-looking, charming man who saved your mother's life? (NT) -- Carla, 15:45:52 04/06/09 Mon
  - Yes, I think I'd throw myself at his feet!! Hey Carla, I got my hair cut.....I now have the Toronto bob too. (NT) -- Carolyn, 16:31:52 04/06/09 Mon
    - I need pictures! My new hairdresser -- the old one moved an hour north of the city -- said at least 50% of her female clients have some sort of bob. (NT) -- Carla, 17:12:14 04/06/09 Mon
      - I will endeavor to take some pics and send them to you. Its a big change for me! But I really like it. (NT) -- Carolyn, 17:50:57 04/06/09 Mon
        
        Hey Carolyn, I walked past a "Cowan" street yesterday. (NT) -- PeggyB (), 10:25:40 04/07/09 Tue
        
        There is a "Cowan Street" here too. Its not in Halifax but somewhere near New Glasgow. Not a very common last name. No one ever pronounces it correctly. Its Scottish just in case y'all were wondering. (NT) -- Carolyn, 12:14:39 04/07/09 Tue
        
        Now you've got me curious. I would pronounce it "cow-en"......and the real answer is????? (NT) -- PeggyB, 12:34:30 04/07/09 Tue
        
        You got it Peggy. Most poeple say it like cohen...but its just like the animal : cow....en. (NT) -- Carolyn, 04:55:11 04/08/09 Wed
- Q3) Yes ;) (NT) -- Carla, 15:46:49 04/06/09 Mon
- Q1 & Q2) I think both women felt very different about Lymond. Seeing a depth to him they hadn't to that point. He saved them from a scary situation, so he gets some hero points there. Q3) Of course! *g* Q4) I had to do some research on this one. I found out that there was a Geneva version of the Bible that came before KJV and was popular amongst the Protestants of this time. Apparently there has been some serious scholarly debate if the translation of the Hebrew word "re'em" to unicorn is correct. I won't even go there...it's too heated on either side from what I can see. The only thing that stands out is that this interaction between Lymond and Catherine shows his knowledge of her religous beliefs and her bible. (NT) -- Lil, 15:50:38 04/06/09 Mon
  - It occured to me while reading an earlier book in the series (QP perhaps?) that I wasn't really sure of Lymond's religious leanings--which I found significant given how important religious alliance was at the time. I don't even recall him praying. He certainly seems comfortable with Catholics, Protestants, Moslems, and even atheists. There is somewhere in CM that Lymond expresses what seems to be a very progressive opinion about letting people follow whatever belief they have (I can't recall the details right now, and don't have my book with me)....it really caught my attention (wish I'd made note of it). I recall thinking what a "modern" thought that was...and wondering if it was reflective of DD's thoughts and the time period in which she was writing (during and following the Civil Rights era)???? (NT) -- PeggyB, 10:24:46 04/07/09 Tue
    - Is this the line: I happen to agree with More, that no man shall be blamed for reasoning in the maintenance of his own religion." (Chapter 2) I found it interesting, too, that in an earlier chapter, when asking Jerott why he married Marthe, had defended her by saying that she didn't need the position Jerott offered, she already had her own. CM was written in 1975, which would be in the very heart of the women's liberation movement. (NT) -- Elaine, 11:26:35 04/07/09 Tue
      - Hmmmm, I think it was a different line, later in the book. But that's a good one too. When I get home, I'm going to start rereading this book, dangit! (NT) -- PeggyB, 11:41:14 04/07/09 Tue
- Q3 - (Yeah a question I can answer!) YES! YES! YES! (NT) -- Lynne (feeling like Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally), 13:25:19 04/07/09 Tue
  - LOL! I have always been touched by how gentlemanly Lymond treats all women he beds (barring Joleta)- but even Joleta he would have saved if he could. He risked life and limb to help Oonagh before he ever knew of any child. He treats the prostitutes with respect. And now the Marechal. And as for her and how she sees him- perhaps she wanted to prove she was still sexy particularly after all the rumors of her husband and Lymond- if one's husband prefered men, you might need to compete, so to speak. (NT) -- susiej (), 14:33:49 04/07/09 Tue
    - Well Said. You are right about L treating women with much respect...it makes me wonder (curious girl that I am) how he treated the men...he was with? (NT) -- Lynne, 14:15:21 04/08/09 Wed
- Note: Not sure if I'll post Chapter 3 late tonight or early tomorrow morning, but will do so as soon as I can. Suppertime now, and I'm teaching a little class tonight. Seems that every week before a holiday is just packed to the brim with too many activities. (NT) -- Elaine, 14:31:54 04/07/09 Tue
- Horns on Unicorns- well, doesn't the legend say unicorns can only abide virgins, they are supposed to be the symbol of purity and innocence despite that fierce and phallic looking horn. I should know this better since my church's emblem is a unicorn (Episcopalean). I think its suppose to represent Christ. (NT) -- susiej, 14:32:45 04/07/09 Tue
  - This morning I read that in Christianity held that the unicorn and a virginal maiden represented Mary and Christ. Other interpretations are a chaste life or a faithful marriage. (NT) -- celtgirl, 14:49:09 04/07/09 Tue
    - In medieval tapestry, the unicorn did indeed represent Christ. You are all probably familiar with that one very old tapestry that hangs in Stirling castle, with the penned unicorn. CLICK. The Unicorn Hunt, not to be confused with HoN, was about the search for the Christ. I think the Episcopalians/Anglicans adopted the Geneva bible translation early on, but didn't stick with it, iirc. (NT) -- Elaine (), 15:09:33 04/07/09 Tue
      - Thanks for spelling it correctly. I could tell mine looked off! (i'm the world's worst speller) (NT) -- susiej, 17:21:31 04/07/09 Tue
        
        I can't figure out which word you're talking about. (NT) -- Elaine, 20:50:51 04/07/09 Tue
        
        Episcopalian. :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 21:04:26 04/07/09 Tue
- Q3) In all honesty, the bar was already set awfully high - I'm sorely smitten with the man - that's all I can say! (NT) -- Denise, 16:48:14 04/07/09 Tue
-- Elaine (), 06:19:08 04/05/09 Sun [28]
Part II, Chapter 1

~ The chapter begins with the royals attending the Feast of Corpus Christi. This feast day celebrates the Real Presence of Christ in the host, or the belief in transubstantiation.

~ Marthe and Jerott arrive in Paris

~ Jerott and Lymond meet to discuss the waging of war with inadequate supplies and ordnance

~ Catherine d'Albon clearly despises Lymond, and by extension, the fallen Knight of the Order, Jerott.

~ We learn from Jerott himself why he married Marthe.

~ Archie arrives to tell Lymond of an uprising against the local Presbyterians who are meeting late at night for a service.

~ We learn from Catherine that her mother, the Madama of Marechale, is among the worshippers.

Q1) Why does Mary, Queen of Scotland, want Lymond and Philippa to remain married?

Q2) "Without her [Marthe] presence, Lymond was not prepared to accept her husband back as an officer." Why would Lymond require Marthe's consent?

Translations inside the first post below.

Last edited by author: Sun April 05, 2009 06:29:36 Edited 1 time.
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Replies:
Chapter 2 will be posted a little later today. So sorry for any inconvenience. Wild and crazy day here. -- Elaine, 06:30:57 04/06/09 Mon [3]
[Edit]

Replies:
- No worries. I am still catching up from yesterday. *g* (NT) -- Lil, 08:51:11 04/06/09 Mon
- No worries, Elaine. Gives me something to look forward to later in my day :) (NT) -- Carla, 09:23:18 04/06/09 Mon
Checkmate, Part 1, Chapter 6 -- Denise, 20:29:55 04/02/09 Thu [29]
River Saone in Lyon, France
A look at the River Saone at night

NOTE: Sorry this summary is particularly long. It was a long chapter and I didn’t want to miss anything!

After midnight, Lymond and Philippa leave Hotel Gaultier on foot, having sent the horses ahead as a decoy. Lymond tells Philippa not to speak as they walk (probably a tough feat for Philippa). The quiet walk allows Philippa time to think. Was it wise to leave the mysterious key with Marthe? Who are Lymond’s parents? How could Marthe think her relationship with Lymond is romantic? She plots to visit the convent where Marthe was raised, and knowing the date of her birth will help in her quest for answers.

Sensing danger, Lymond asks Philippa to stay put (of course, she doesn’t) while he nabs a muscular young boy, who he had just seen in Marthe’s kitchen. The boy is carrying a package with steel darts and a blowpipe. As a bribe, Lymond offers Philippa’s jeweled girdle to the boy for information about who wants him dead. He offers the names of three merchants, but Lymond wants proof before payment.

The boy’s reluctance to cross a bridge warns Lymond that there is more danger ahead. Lymond with his sword, and Philippa with the blow dart thwart the attackers. The two act as one unit, anticipating each other’s movements like a choreographed dance. Believing more trouble is on its way, they take cover in nearby residences and businesses. Philippa removes her slippers and finds more suitable footwear from a cobbler. Lymond rustles a horse and sends him loose with a spar attached to knock down the assailants.

Hiding under a jetty, Lymond and Philippa fool the pursuers into thinking they are in a boat floating down the river, and they follow. Finally there is silence and Lymond and Philippa feel safe. Laughing hysterically, Lymond admits to removing the bungs out of the boats used by their attackers. After calming himself, he comments on Philippa’s bedraggled, boyish appearance. She takes affront –she is NOT lustful, artless, addled or excitable. She is a sensible Somerville! Lymond seems to be suppressing his feelings thinking her disinterested in him, and admits he slept with the Madame la Marechale to keep her daughter at bay. He’s pledged, and not only to Russia. The poem he recites is about a choice in love that will never change (if only Philippa knew he meant her). Philippa offers friendship and is ready to shake hands on it when attackers approach again.

Philippa impresses Lymond with her knife-handling skills, learned in the seraglio, while Francis brutally takes care of the axe-wielding assassin. They are trapped! Disguising a corpse as Lymond fools only momentarily, so they hide in the custom-house. In all this madness, Philippa feels no fear. Francis touched her and finally accepted her as an adult, partner and friend.

Here, Lymond displays his strength, gaiety, and physical charm, and laughs, while waxing poetic holding Philippa’s hand. They continue evading the assassins by running along the rooftops, crossing over ladders, swinging between pillars, diverting fountains and throwing geranium pots, rolls of cloth, sacks of flour, buckets of slops and flaming brands from alcohol-soaked sconces. The alarm is finally raised and Philippa and Lymond cut off the escaping attackers by unleashing stacked barrels that send the pursuers sprawling into the soldiers. They throw gaming balls into the crowd, taking aim at their friends for fun. Philippa is exuberant and seizes Lymond’s hands saying, “This is what you should be!”

Silence follows this ‘uncomfortable remark’. Lymond removes his hands from Philippa’s grasp, smiles and releases her to Archie’s care. Philippa feels the fool; she asked for friendship but her actions implied wanting more.

Next morning Lymond is back to military business. The French army met a large defeat to the north, and many of the noble class are dead, Guthrie and Hoddim are missing and the Constable of France has been captured. Lymond prepares to head to Paris to stop the Spanish army. Upon seeing Blacklock, Lymond asks who brought him home. (What happened?) Archie and another secretly brought him home without anyone else’s notice. We learn from Archie that Lymond drank too much and had a bout of blindness. Archie has a tirade, saying to Francis, “Ye senseless bluidy tup-heidit madman” and still admits to being Philippa’s man, not Lymond’s. {So Archie is here for Philippa’s sake?}

We learn that last evening Archie found the death certificate of Francis Crawford crushed in Lymond’s hand. {Francis appears to be cool about the whole questionable parentage, but not so!}

[Edit]

Replies:
- Translations>>> -- Denise, 20:32:24 04/02/09 Thu
- Translation for "Tant que je vive...">>>> -- Denise, 20:34:56 04/02/09 Thu
  - This was the phrase, tant que je vive, that I had engraved in Larry's wedding ring when we chose new ones a couple of years ago on the Isle of Skye. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:36:40 04/03/09 Fri
  - Lymond's recitation of this poem broke my heart. If only he thought himself worthy of his love, how much pain could be averted. But then, the story would be much shorter and we the much poorer. (NT) -- Carla, 05:48:17 04/03/09 Fri
    - And how very like Lymond to understand that now that he's finally and truly fallen in love, that's it for him forever. (NT) -- celtgirl, 07:55:49 04/03/09 Fri
  - That is beautiful. (NT) -- Lil, 09:28:49 04/03/09 Fri
- This chapter reminded me of the rooftop chases in "Queen's Play", perhaps a little less dangerous than the evening escapades of Francis and Robin, but imagine doing this in a long dress and inadequate footwear! What a lighthearted moment while running for their lives! They are so equally matched in every way, but they must come to this realization at the same time! (NT) -- Denise, 20:49:13 04/02/09 Thu
  - That's exactly what this reminded me of, and to me this is Lymond at his best -- charming, humourous, quoting obscure poetry and showing his physical agility and ability to think on his feet (literally). The fact that Phillipa keeps up and matches him stride for stride, quote for quote and LOVES it, shows what a formidable couple they make. (NT) -- Carla, 05:50:37 04/03/09 Fri
    - And when she knifes the attacker...wow!! (NT) -- PeggyB, 08:32:30 04/03/09 Fri
  - I felt the same. It was fun to see them go (of course I had to re-read sections as the movements were so fast and I needed to understand just exactly where they were going in this adventure. *g*). I love Lymond like this - the free spirit, creative and physically in tune. He's his sexiest, for me, when he's in this mode. (NT) -- Lil, 09:34:30 04/03/09 Fri
- I just love Archie! What a devoted soul he is. Lymond is like a superhero but even superheroes need a little help once in awhile. (NT) -- Elaine, 07:20:11 04/03/09 Fri
  - I love that he allows Archie to lambast him when he deserves it too. Shows how much he cares about Archie very clearly. (NT) -- celtgirl, 07:57:36 04/03/09 Fri
    - Yes - very good point! (NT) -- Elaine, 12:04:03 04/03/09 Fri
- What did Phillipa mean "This is what you should be?" (NT) -- Jessica M., 11:53:20 04/03/09 Fri
  - Joyful, playful, poetic, athletic Lymond showing a love for life is what Philippa saw in him during the rooftop races and she thinks this is the way he should always be. He has so often presented the cold, authoritative man who would just as soon see himself dead as anything else. We've always known that Lymond has this charismatic side to him, and Philippa has seen glimmers of this Francis, but not the full-blown power of the man when he allows himself the freedom to 'be'. (NT) -- Denise, 12:46:46 04/03/09 Fri
    - I think our first true glimpse of Lymond like this (compared to the mania the last time he was in France) is when he's in the props warehouse with Phillipa, Ludo et al. Lord, it must be something to see that man in top form. (NT) -- Carla -- feeling a little weak in the knees at the thought, 14:29:57 04/03/09 Fri
  - Yes, and I posted this below but I'll put it here since it relates-in the quote Cindy found- Philippa (miss warmth and summer sunshine) sees Lymond as a place with bright sun. She doesn't see him as the icy person the others do. (NT) -- susiej, 15:29:19 04/03/09 Fri
    - From the time Philippa was on the ship with him, heading to find and care for his son, she has never been intimidated by him, accepted his 'warts' and found joy in his moments of wonderful abandon. Sybilla might be the only other one to see, accept and cherish all these sides of Francis. (NT) -- Denise, 16:12:49 04/03/09 Fri
      - Heck, she wasn't intimidated by him when she was a little girl of what, ten? and he questioned her in front of her parents. She's one tough little cookie. (NT) -- Elaine, 18:51:52 04/03/09 Fri
- I'm glad that this was my last chapter. At least this shows us a little light at the end of the long Lymond tunnel! (NT) -- Denise, 16:15:06 04/03/09 Fri
  - Great job Denise....you've set a high bar for the rest of us! (NT) -- PeggyB, 16:44:53 04/03/09 Fri
    - You sure have, Denise! I've only completed one chapter's highlights so far. Getting kinda nervous here! (NT) -- Elaine, 17:06:15 04/03/09 Fri
  - Wonderful job, Denise. Thanks for all your hard work this week. (NT) -- Carla, 07:15:07 04/04/09 Sat
  - Good job Denise....thanks for volunteering! (NT) -- Lil, 08:34:37 04/04/09 Sat
    - Thanks, everyone! I spent a lot of time on the summaries, re-reading sections to make sure I had the correct interpretation - sometimes, it wasn't easy for me to decipher her work! It certainly enhances one's understanding to take that time so it has its rewards. I look forward to everyone else's summaries or questions as we finish this fabulous series! (NT) -- Denise, 09:46:48 04/04/09 Sat
      - Thanks so much Denise, you did a great job- the summaries are alot of work, aren't they? (NT) -- celtgirl, 09:58:38 04/04/09 Sat
        
        I found these chapter summaries a lot more work than those for "The Ringed Castle". Not sure if it was because the story is more involved, or because the chapters were much longer. At least now I can sit back and relax and let the rest of you work *g*! (NT) -- Denise, 11:23:23 04/04/09 Sat
- I've been reading like a son of a gun trying to catch up with y'all! I was going to ask why he slept with la Marechale, but he answered that question in this chapter. He wants to escape the daughter. DD is certainly a master at this type of fast action chase. P really seemed to enjoy it, as did he. (NT) -- FranS, 18:02:23 04/03/09 Fri
Checkmate Part 1, Chapter 5 -- Denise, 20:30:23 04/01/09 Wed [40]

The Arabian gazelle hound, also known as a Saluki

Lymond, Philippa, Marthe and Jerott begin a hunt for the secret papers of the Dame de Doubtance, wandering throughout the house until Marthe leads them up the winding stairs to the Dame’s private chambers. Marthe stays behind since the Dame “did not tell her to come”. They almost expect to see a shriveled Dame in the chamber – no, she was properly buried, but they do find her beloved Arabian gazelle-hound dead near the doorway.

The three reminisce about the events that followed their last visit in the Dame’s study. Had she foreseen their future? People had thought her a witch, and didn’t even know her true name. Why did she leave her fortune to Lymond, a man she had only met twice? What is the relationship between Marthe and Francis? The answers must be in the house and Philippa is determined to find them, not for Lymond’s sake, but for the sake of his family in Scotland.

Lymond begins to sing a song about the embalming and burial of Camilla the Volscian (taken from a 12th century classical French epic which includes the death of a proto-Amazonian heroine). The oratory is more an apothecary filled with dried herbs, roots, beakers, funnels and such. They enter the bedchambers and the Dame’s own room where a wooden statue of Perun, a Slavic pre-Christian idol, stands guard.

A search begins for the Dame’s horoscopes. When they come to the final chamber, Lymond asks to enter alone. Jerott leaves the Dame’s quarters but Philippa remains in the anteroom as a safeguard, believing there is danger nearby.

The final chamber is filled with antiquities from every age and civilization. Prominent is the chair where years ago the Dame sat when taunting Lymond about all she could foresee, including the date of his death. A sudden breeze blows out the candles he holds. He relights the candles, then lights an oil lamp, and methodically begins to explore the room. Speaking from the chair is the Dame (a ghost or spirit?) who asks why he is not afraid. The spirit asks why he has wronged her, not followed her will. She asks him about love, does he not feel this? When Lymond asks for the spirit’s name she claims to be Camille the Volscian. She insists the marriage to Philippa must not be annulled. Philippa has quietly entered the room and asks why the marriage must remain –it is because the Dame promised Lymond’s grandfather.

Lymond defies the Dame and will have the annulment. The bronze door becomes unhinged and she screams, “In fire is your friend; in flood is you foe; in powder is you release. Remember me!” {This quote seems to have much significance} Then all hell breaks loose. Lymond lunges towards the chair, the oil lamp spills and starts a fire. After the fire is beaten out, Jerott approaches the broken chair and finds Marthe in disguise. She claims that the charade was part of the Dame’s wishes, though it was only supposed to be witnessed by Lymond.

Philippa finds evidence of the horoscopes and other papers. While Jerott and Lymond are out of the room, Philippa admits to Marthe that she has no romantic interest in Lymond, but is searching into his heritage because she knows he will not return to Scotland, where he belongs, while his birth is in doubt. Marthe still thinks they are a suitable match, but Philippa realizes that her feelings for Lymond are clouded by the bond her mother shares with him.

There isn’t much of significance in the papers except verification of the birthdates of Lymond and Marthe. She is two years older, and no surname is given for her. There is also a book about the Crawford family and Philippa tells of three witnesses in England who signed a document regarding Sybilla’s children. Richard is a legitimate son of Gavin, but Francis and Eloise are bastards.

Marthe has noticed a hinged compartment below the broken chair. When opened, they find a key and the death certificate of Francis Crawford.

[Edit]

Replies:
- Translations>>> -- Denise, 20:31:58 04/01/09 Wed
- 12th century epic, Le Roman d’Eneas as it relates to the burial of Camilla the Volscian>>>>> -- Denise, 20:35:00 04/01/09 Wed
- OK, so who thought that the spirit (ghost) WAS the Dame de Doubtance? I was ready to believe! Am I so gullible? We really haven't seen the supernatural in her writing that I can remember (except maybe the Dame herself), but I was willing to accept it. (NT) -- Denise, 20:43:53 04/01/09 Wed
  - I truly didn't know what to think, both the Dame and Marthe creep me out!! (NT) -- PeggyB, 22:39:25 04/01/09 Wed
    - I was also totally creeped out the first time I read this chapter. It only added to my confusion and dislike of Marthe. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:45:32 04/02/09 Thu
  - I was a little blown away. The Dame coming back to speak to Lymond. It just seemed all too strange. I was so angry that Marthe had done this to him (and Philippa). She's just mean. (NT) -- Lil, 09:04:44 04/02/09 Thu
    - I actually almost felt sorry for her. To, me she comes off seeming quite pathetic. If I were her I would be totally humiliated. To be caught dressed up as and impersonating some dead old crone makes her look foolish and mildly unbalanced. But, she seems to not care at all. She will do just about anything to ensure Lymond stays married to P. (NT) -- Carolyn, 12:16:51 04/02/09 Thu
      - I felt sorry for Marthe too. And I thought the Dame had somehow compelled Marthe to do it. I can't even imagine what it would have been like to have grown up in that creepy household with some woman who obsessed over your half brother (and left everything to him.) She is very bitter but I understand why. The dame was one part of this book I didn't really "get" or like. (NT) -- susiej, 12:23:51 04/02/09 Thu
      - I felt Marthe came off as pathetic throughout the whole book (see my earlier comment about her and Philippa trading "roles"). I can't, however bring myself to feel sorry for her. Yes, she suffered as a female bastard in a time where that albatross hung heavy on her neck, but I never, ever, cared for her. She never did a thing to redeem herself in my mind, that I can recall, until her last act in this book...and that was unintentional. (NT) -- PeggyB, 19:07:02 04/02/09 Thu
- All the in fire is your friend, flood is you foe, reminds me of the fortune teller in the last of the Bronze Horseman books. "Rust is not your friend." I don't know why but that cracked me up. Anybody else read that? (NT) -- susiej, 12:29:40 04/02/09 Thu
  - I don't remember that from "The Bronze Horseman". Someday, I'll have to do a re-read! That quote must mean something...just not sure what. We think of water as being a symbol of Lymond, a good thing I thought. I don't know, maybe this is just nonsense from Marthe! (NT) -- Denise, 12:46:46 04/02/09 Thu
    - It is through this line I think the Dame de Doubtance spoke through Marthe. This prophecy comes to fruition as the novel progresses. >>>> -- Sallie (), 13:04:12 04/02/09 Thu
      - Ah, thanks! I knew the first two but couldnt get the "powder." (NT) -- susiej, 15:55:21 04/02/09 Thu
        
        Ironically, I "got" the powder and missed the others! (NT) -- PeggyB, 19:08:29 04/02/09 Thu
      - Thanks, I had no idea how to relate that quote to events in the books. (NT) -- Denise, 16:23:38 04/02/09 Thu
      - I think that soliloquy also touches on things from Lymond's past as well. >>> -- Elaine, 17:01:53 04/02/09 Thu
        
        I thought the powder related to drugs as well, and his release was from the grip of opiates. (NT) -- Denise, 17:27:51 04/02/09 Thu
    - Denise, its in the 3rd book- Days in the Summer Garden. And its about Tania's brother. (NT) -- susiej, 15:56:08 04/02/09 Thu
      - I've read all three books, but then, my memory isn't that good, and I test my skills of concentration by reading more than one book at a time! Not always an efficient way to do things! (NT) -- Denise, 16:27:11 04/02/09 Thu
    - Lymond is ice- frozen (always descibed as glittering, cool, even brittle)- that's why he needs fire. And I didn't make that up myself, I read it on Marzipan. A fantastic post by a woman who pointe all the Lymond ice symbolism and the Philippa earth symbolism. (NT) -- susiej, 15:59:16 04/02/09 Thu
      - There is also imagery of cold and water associated with Lymond throughout the books, and Philippa's imagery is often associated with warmth and brightness. Even her last name, Somerville, suggests warmth! I'm trying to remember which Chinese Zodiac animal and element Lymond was. Wasn't he a monkey (for intelligence)? I can't recall if his element was fire or water. Does anyone recall his exact birthdate? (NT) -- Elaine, 18:07:12 04/02/09 Thu
        
        November 1st was it- 1526. (NT) -- celtgirl, 18:08:18 04/02/09 Thu
        
        That makes him a Scorpion, which fits perfectly with GoK. Maybe it was Year of the Dog. I thought it was Monkey but now I'm rethinking that. Cannot find a Chinese Zodiac chart that goes back to 1526! (NT) -- Elaine, 19:30:06 04/02/09 Thu
        
        I was born in a monkey year, and I think it goes in ordered cycles- so I might get my math whiz hubby to figure it out. (NT) -- celtgirl, 19:45:27 04/02/09 Thu
        
        1526 was a Dog Year, here's a chart I found that goes way back>>>> -- celtgirl, 19:48:59 04/02/09 Thu
        
        Maybe Pat could figure out which element Lymond is. The elements go in a 60-year cycle. It's got to be either fire or water. (NT) -- Elaine, 05:41:56 04/03/09 Fri
- This whole chapter felt very surreal in many ways. I was completely puzzled at first by the "voice" from the chair, DD hasn't included much in the way of the truly supernatural in the book and Lymond seemed so calm about the whole thing. While I don't like Marthe, I do feel bad for her -- she was raised in such a horrible, twisted manner, poisoned emotionally and mentally from the time she was a young child. On another point, does Phillipa realise she's in love with Lymond at this point, and all her denials are to save face (for both of them)? Or has she not truly realised the extent of her feelings at this time? (NT) -- Carla, 15:30:55 04/02/09 Thu
  - I don't think we ever get an 'anvil' moment with Philippa, do we? I think in all her Somerville practicality she steams full bore ahead and does what she feels she must in the name of friendship, etc. But for such an insightful girl/woman, she can be pretty blind to herself. I wonder if it's not that wild run through the streets that comes up soon in 'Checkmate' where she comes to a realization of her true feelings toward Lymond. (NT) -- celtgirl, 15:37:42 04/02/09 Thu
    - Looks like more simultaneous posting. :) (NT) -- Sallie, 15:42:06 04/02/09 Thu
  - Carla, I don't think she realizes she has feelings for Lymond at this point. In fact, I think the first hint comes in the following chapter as they race through the streets of Lyon. >>> -- Sallie, 15:38:28 04/02/09 Thu
    - Spot on as ever, Miss Sallie. :) (NT) -- celtgirl, 15:51:13 04/02/09 Thu
    - Yup, next chapter, though she immediately gets shot down and there go all the warm fuzzies! (NT) -- Denise, 16:20:19 04/02/09 Thu
    - Yes, this seems to be her moment of revelation, but I think she unconsciously longed for him on some level since the end of PiF. (NT) -- Elaine, 17:05:53 04/02/09 Thu
    - Perhaps she does have an anvil moment, I am only just catching up ladies, but having just read this paragraph I realized she does have her epiphany>>> -- celtgirl, 17:32:25 04/02/09 Thu
      - Ahh, excellent discovery, cg. (NT) -- Elaine, 18:07:51 04/02/09 Thu
      - Sehr gut, Cindy. (NT) -- Sallie, 18:55:10 04/02/09 Thu
      - That's why we pay you the big bucks, Cindy. Oh, wait, we don't pay you. Well, that's why we love you and your books -- you're smart :) (NT) -- Carla, 20:04:08 04/02/09 Thu
        
        LOL- ladies- turns out this 'smart' girl wasn't even in the right chapter. Yeesh. (NT) -- celtgirl, 07:50:53 04/03/09 Fri
      - oh, very good! and interesting that SHE can see him as a warm sun. (NT) -- susiej, 15:26:33 04/03/09 Fri
Checkmate, Part 1, Chapter 4 -- Denise, 21:00:40 03/31/09 Tue [27]
Views near Fourviere Hill

Fourviere Basilica

In the morning, there is much military business to attend to. Lymond is as sharp as ever, even after spending the late evening hours with the Madame la Marechale, a trait Blacklock appears to resent.

Archie Abernethy leaves the Hotel Schiatti where he is staying with Philippa and inconspicuously follows a monk of the Chapter of St. John as he wanders through the streets of Lyon to picturesque Fourviere Hill. A moment of distraction has Archie attacked by the monk, Lymond in disguise. Francis is surprised to see Archie and accuses him of attempting to prove he can’t take care of himself. {Does Lymond think that Philippa is concerned for him?} Archie has followed Francis on behalf of Philippa to ask if he would meet with her prior to their evening appointment, but Lymond dominates the conversation, asking about Midculter and Philippa’s motivations for being in Lyon.

Although Lymond thinks Strozzi’s plan to keep him in France came from Jerott, Archie assures him that Jerott wants him back in Russia. Francis is surprised that his mother has condoned Philippa’s interest in the Dame de Doubtance’s papers since they are likely to reveal his questionable family tree.

After working long hours on military business, Lymond meets Philippa at the appointed time, tired and irritable while Philippa is her vivacious self. Philippa tells Lymond that Madame la Marechale visited her that afternoon wanting confirmation that she had no passionate feelings for him. An explanation of complicated family alliances satisfied the Dame, but Lymond thinks Philippa’s disinterest in him doesn’t help his self-esteem to which she counters “your self-esteem has had a lifetime of steady attention”.

Lymond is in a bit of a pissy mood at first, but relaxes during their ride to Gauthier house. Lymond wants Philippa out of Lyon, for her own safety “among other reasons”. They speak of Austin Grey and Philippa thinks she “can do something with him”. Lymond promises not to harm Austin though he can’t guarantee that he won’t be nasty.

At Gauthier House, Philippa greets Jerott amiably (he hardly recognizes her), even Lymond is friendly, but the greeting between Lymond and Marthe is strained. Lymond agrees to Philippa reading the Dame’s papers, but Marthe insists that Lymond enter the chambers first since it was the terms of his inheritance. After entering the dusty chamber, he leaves Philppa to her exploration and joins Marthe and Jerott. They discuss the money the merchants will loan the King of France, but the conversation turns to Lymond’s marriage to Philippa. Marthe urges Lymond to maintain the marriage, while Jerott thinks Philippa too young and innocent for the likes of Lymond. Francis assures Jerott that he wants to return to Russia, without Philippa, but the King will not release him from his year long service.

Overhearing this discussion, Philippa wants to know his true reason for remaining in France and WHY he wants the divorce. Lymond says he wants to give Philippa her freedom but she doesn’t care about that right now. He’s frustrated, wondering why he was detained in France if she doesn’t want a divorce, but Philippa is concerned with his safety, not his bedding habits. {I love it when Philippa bests him with her “sheer, bloody, domineering interference” – as Lymond puts it}

Philippa is aware and unperturbed that Lymond has slept with Madame la Marechale, but Jerott is riled. Insisting that he wants to return to Russia, Lymond says he will create a position for himself if he must, and join Guzel or not. Philippa proceeds to order Lymond about, to search the house for the documents she seeks.

{ELAINE – I noticed that Philippa was watching Lymond’s hands! She also wanted to touch him with reassurance, but did not, knowing he didn’t like to be touched – interesting.

I also noticed the reference to Marthe’s bisexuality when Lymond says that she should marry Philippa, something Jerott failed to recognize. I missed that on the first reading.}

[Edit]

Replies:
- Translations>>> -- Denise, 21:02:19 03/31/09 Tue
- Question: There's an interchange between Marthe and Lymond I didn't understand (go figure!). Lymond asks Marthe why she wants him to stay in France. "You know that Prince Vishnevetsky has taken my place in Vorobiovo?" She counters, "And I have Jerott...How cheaply you rate me?" What does Marthe mean by this? (NT) -- Denise, 21:12:01 03/31/09 Tue
  - Hmm, good question. Vishnevetsky has taken Lymond's place officially as well as with Guzel....and this is what I think Marthe is referring to, V has Guzel and Marthe has Jerott. I'm not sure how the "how cheaply..." comment figures in, will be interesting to see what others have to say. (NT) -- PeggyB, 22:45:00 03/31/09 Tue
  - So, is she implying they have both gotten a raw deal? Lymond has lost Guzel and Marthe has nothing better than her drunken husband Jerott? Neither have what they really want? (NT) -- Carolyn, 05:18:40 04/01/09 Wed
    - This has me rather confused! Where's Sallie, Cindy or Elaine???? (NT) -- Denise, 11:26:41 04/01/09 Wed
      - I'm confused too. Is Marthe "cheaply rated" compared to Guzel? Lymond? Philippa?????? (NT) -- Peggy, 11:35:17 04/01/09 Wed
        
        What I have always taken this to mean is that Lymond is saying there was no reason to keep him from Russia, because Guzel had taken up with someone else, and Marthe replying to the barb is saying this is not why she's keeping him from Russia, that he shouldn't attribute such base motives to her. She's keeping him from Russia for the sake of fate. Also she's saying 'I have Jerott, I no longer need Guzel.' Which of course, is very barbed considering how she treats Jerott, as Lymond well knows. These two are extremely well matched sparring partners. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:04:01 04/01/09 Wed
        
        I like your idea about Marthe and Guzel. I guess I never caught that they were "involved". I just thought they were both associates of the Dame. (NT) -- Lil, 13:06:26 04/01/09 Wed
        
        Remember when Lymond says, "Strike you?" said Lymond, and laughed. "No, I am going to describe Guzel's naked body. And call upon you for corroboration." (pg. 240 Vintage edition). (NT) -- celtgirl, 13:23:45 04/01/09 Wed
        
        funny, i just re-read that quote after I posted above. :-) Its so interesting that Lymond and Marthe are somewhat interchangeable in the worlds of Jerott and Guzel. (NT) -- Lil, 13:37:35 04/01/09 Wed
        I think my mouth fell open when I first read that line. How did Lymond know about G & M? Did G tell him????? (NT) -- Peggy, 14:07:55 04/01/09 Wed
        
        I always thought he picked up on it in PinF, somewhere along the line. Lymond rarely misses anything, so it wouldn't surprise me if he merely sussed it out. (NT) -- celtgirl, 14:18:42 04/01/09 Wed
        
        That's my interpretation, too. I think by saying, 'And I have Jerott', Marthe is telling Lymond that both she and her former lover have filled their beds with second choices. To her, it's immaterial. 'How cheaply you rate me,' is saying that her motivation for keeping Lymond in France has nothing to do with spite, as she assumes he believes, but rather something much greater. (NT) -- Sallie (), 13:42:16 04/01/09 Wed
        
        Thanks, everyone! I wasn't expecting two rather unrelated comments in such close proximity. I think that muddled things more for me. (NT) -- Denise, 14:35:21 04/01/09 Wed
  - I went back and re-read this...let's see what I can contribute>>> -- Lil, 12:03:47 04/01/09 Wed
    - Oops, sorry Nalana, we must have been posting at almost the same time. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:06:09 04/01/09 Wed
      - no worries...I did the same to you! :-) (NT) -- Lil, 13:03:10 04/01/09 Wed
- Why was Lymond out and about roaming Lyon dressed as a monk? Was hr trying to meet up with someone or simply trying to get away and have some solitude? (NT) -- Carolyn, 05:16:34 04/01/09 Wed
  - I thought he was having some alone time, and needed subterfuge to pull it off. (NT) -- Denise, 11:16:21 04/01/09 Wed
  - I agree, Denise, I think he wanted some time alone to clear his head and just get away from everyone and the demands that always seem to cluster around him. Possibly seeing Philippa has thrown him and he needs time to centre himself again. (NT) -- celtgirl, 12:08:06 04/01/09 Wed
- Because it is Wednesday, and I've just read the scene that describes Jerott as he stands by the window, I have to say the man is definitely a quiveration for me. And I just melt every time I read that bit where Lymond hugs him. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 17:22:12 04/01/09 Wed
  - Tall, dark and handsome seems to suit you :) ( I seem to have a thing for blondes lately *g*) Don't you think he's due more happiness than he gets? My heart aches for him. (NT) -- Denise, 18:27:11 04/01/09 Wed
    - Yes, he just makes my heart ache too- I always think if the right woman was there for him, he'd be a wonderful man.... I think part of the reason I'm enamoured of him is that Lymond is so obviously fond of him. Jerott is a good part of the reason I don't like Marthe at all. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 18:30:04 04/01/09 Wed
      - And upon ruminating about him whilst soaking in the tub and sipping a Cosmo, I realized that even though we never see him horizontal in the books, unless Lymond has smacked him onto the ground, I do picture him that way a good deal. ;) (NT) -- celtgirl, 19:21:59 04/01/09 Wed
        
        You're a very naughty girl, Cindy! (NT) -- Denise, 20:08:42 04/01/09 Wed
        
        Thank heavens! Otherwise we'd be missing all those wonderful scenes in her own writing. (NT) -- Carla, 20:14:02 04/01/09 Wed
Checkmate Part 1, Chapter 3 -- Denise, 20:26:10 03/30/09 Mon [16]

16th century French fashion

Madame la Marechale, the Governor’s wife, seems to resent having Lymond as a houseguest. Danny expected some altercation to occur, looked forward to it {the mischievous b#gger that he is} when the two met, but nothing materialized. She was civil, dropping bits of gossip regarding Lymond’s illustrious past in France, but the talk dried up much to Danny’s disappointment. It seems that Lymond’s drunken behaviour back in his days with the French court, were not frowned upon at all; the reaction was quite the opposite with many of the French nobility.

Lymond plays the Madame with his exceedingly charming graces, to which Danny takes note. Boxes arrive from the bankers and Lymond asks that the dirty boy in the delivery group be allowed to speak to him personally. He tricks the child, and discovers that the boy is lying, not only about being a member of the bankers’ household, but he is really a she (attrape with two e’s!), and wonder of wonders, the ‘she’ is Philippa! {Did Lymond somehow know that this dirty boy on the street was really Philippa?}

Quite rightly, Lymond guesses that Philippa is in Lyon to see the papers left by the Dame de Doubtance. Philippa appears a bit nervous about Lymond’s reaction to her presence (and past activities that kept Lymond in France) but Danny assures her that he still lives after his own deception that kept Lymond from returning to Russia. Lymond agrees that she can view the papers if she so wishes but Philippa is not satisfied and counters with a stab about Guzel.

Since both Philippa and Lymond are both to meet at Marthe’s house tomorrow at 6pm, Marthe’s secret plan, Lymond suggests that they have a bit of fun and arrive together.

Philippa doesn’t seem to mind the fact that Guzel is Lymond’s mistress, but since Guzel won’t leave Russia, that means Lymond must go to her. She suggests to the Madame that her daughter Catherine could be a good match for Lymond, something the Governor has just written in a letter to his wife. Philippa’s hope is that Catherine might bind Lymond to France, believing she could nullify the draw of Guzel and Russia. Apparently, Philppa feels she has no sway in keeping Lymond in Western Europe, but maybe Catherine can do so. Her astute reasoning surprises and intrigues the Madame.

After an evening with Jerott, who became terribly drunk, Adam returns and speaks to Lymond who explains that Jerott’s excessive drinking is something he does when under stress, though thankfully his business has not suffered because of it. They discuss the house where Marthe and Jerott are now living, which was once inhabited by Gaultier and the Dame de Doubtance. The house and the Dame’s fortune were both left to Lymond by the Dame, though neither did he want. They speak of old times and Lymond admits that the tall stories Jerott tells of the journey to Stamboul are quite true; he has much to be accountable for concerning that time of his life.

Adam tells Lymond that Jerott doesn’t know about Philippa being in Lyon, but Lymond assumes correctly that Marthe does. Francis wonders why she wants him to encounter his estranged wife.

Lymond strong arms Blacklock out the door, slamming it in the process, which seems to be a cue to the Madame , who gives her face a fresh coat of ‘paint’ and awaits Lymond’s visit.

[Edit]

Replies:
Checkmate Part 1, Chapter 2 -- Denise, 20:48:24 03/29/09 Sun [27]

Old Town Lyon

Jerott Blyth comes back into the story – he’s been missed. We learn that Lymond has been in touch with Jerott during his sojourn in Russia. Jerott has been living in Lyon, France (“the crossroads of the world”) married to Marthe, a relation of Lymond who is the spitting image of him (but we do not know exactly how they are related). Lymond suggests that she be referred to as his step-sister since their resemblance will cause questions to arise.

Lymond has come to Lyon to address the burghers of the city, as an envoy of the King of France, to raise a loan to fight the Spanish invaders. Valuable information has been suppled to Lymond by Jerott, and Jerott wonders why he has retained ties with Francis, even helping to further his career. Why does he still feel a loyalty to him?
Lymond arrives with pomp and circumstance, and is quite (sarcastically) charming when he greets Jerott. Although Jerott feels ill at ease at first with Hislop, Adam Blacklock helps to break the ice.

It’s been three years since Marthe and Lymond have seen each other. Marthe thinks she is inconspicuous in the crowd, but Francis picks her out easily, acknowledging her presence.

Marthe leaves the crowd and meets Archie Abernethy {someone else I have sorely missed}. It seems Marthe has asked Philippa to visit and look over papers left by the Dame de Doubtance about Lymond’s family history. Philippa needs Lymond’s signature to see these papers, though she wants to get it secretly so Francis doesn’t know she is in Lyon.

Archie questions whether it is a coincidence that Philippa and Lymond are in Lyon at the same time (oh, sure!). Philippa is staying with Lymond’s bankers, the Schiatti brothers (who surprisingly both have eligible sons – another coincidence?). It has been years since Marthe has seen Philippa, and she doesn’t know that Philippa has blossomed into a beautiful young woman with many suitors vying for her hand once her marriage to Lymond is annulled.

Lymond’s marriage annulment and return to Russia are what Jerott would like to see, says Marthe, but Archie thinks Jerott is behind Strozzi’s proposition to have the annulment papers signed after a year in France. Marthe denies this, but says SHE will be responsible for him staying in France.

Lymond gives a speech to the burghers of Lyon, recounting that some merchants have betrayed France to the Spanish. Jerott has supplied important information to Lymond regarding the plot to admit Spanish troops at the next fair, dressed as traders. The burghers are informed by Lymond that steps have been taken to save Lyon, not to fear, Switzers (Swiss army) are coming to their aid (payment is an issue though) and they are not allowed to flee the city or send their goods to a safer location. They all must work together to keep King Philip of Spain and his army out of Lyon.

Lymond appears to be supporting this policy by leaving his own money in a Lyon bank.

While crossing a bridge a problem arises. Danny goes to deal with the issue and his horse begins to buck wildly. Lymond discovers it has been darted and then another dart hits the brooch in Lymond’s cap. Lymond thinks that a child in the crowd is responsible for firing the darts due to the angle of impact and asks the children to be gathered and removed from the area. He will not inform the King of this incident, it would shame Lyon, but Hislop suspects Lymond knows which child is responsible, though he’s not telling.

[Edit]

Replies:
- French translation: this one really is nonsensical. Sallie, maybe you've got a better translation? >>>>> -- Denise, 20:51:36 03/29/09 Sun
  - This is what I have, once again from Nancy Wright's Translation Guide. >>> -- Sallie, 21:04:14 03/29/09 Sun
    - So it's not whale, but breadth - how strange! Balaine is whale in modern times, but maybe something different, or a different interpretation in olden days. (NT) -- Denise, 15:47:42 03/30/09 Mon
- I found it very interesting watching the activities of Philippa and Marthe throughout this book. When we first met them, Marthe seemed to be the one who had it together and Philippa was essentially a child. In this book, Philippa has matured into a talented, fascinating woman while Marthe has become bitter and just so sad and pathetic (imho). I never understood why she agreed to marry Jerrott. Any thoughts? (NT) -- PeggyB, 22:48:44 03/29/09 Sun
  - Used to think the marriage was to legitimize her in her affairs so she didn't appear to be such an oddity when dealing with others. Then got to thinking >>> -- Elaine, 06:22:36 03/30/09 Mon
    - And the flip side is why did Jerot marry her? He knew what she was all about from their time in Turkey. Why did he do it? (NT) -- Carolyn, 07:06:30 03/30/09 Mon
      - I think Jerott married Marthe, because he loved her. Maybe (like many people before and after him) he thought she would change given love and security in her life. I also think, on a deeper level, it may have been a way of hanging onto Lymond, who had disappeared into Russia at that point. (NT) -- celtgirl, 07:38:10 03/30/09 Mon
        
        I do think Jerott loves her though, whatever that might mean for him, because if you look at the quotation at the end of the book, it does say>>> -- celtgirl, 08:01:09 03/30/09 Mon
        
        This was meant to be below what Elaine wrote, not here. Maybe I'll come back tomorrow and try again. :( (NT) -- celtgirl, 08:02:18 03/30/09 Mon
        Yes, that's right. Actually, my first line in the post started as 'because he loved her' and then I changed it. We're on the same page with this. (NT) -- Elaine, 08:07:09 03/30/09 Mon
        
        Oh yes, I do believe Jerott felt he could 'make' Marthe love him in return. He was naive. (NT) -- Elaine, 08:09:20 03/30/09 Mon
      - He was certainly attracted to her. In his mind, this may have equated to real love. Although >> -- Elaine, 07:40:46 03/30/09 Mon
        
        Makes sense to me :) (NT) -- Carolyn, 07:49:23 03/30/09 Mon
        It makes as much sense as anything dealing with the human heart and mind when Lymond is involved. I like the MLS (Magnetic Lymond Syndrome)! I think we can all be said to be suffering from/enjoying MLS at times. Of course, like any good magnet, Francis can set up a pretty strong field around himself to drive objects away, as well. (NT) -- Carla, 07:57:30 03/30/09 Mon
        I agree completely. Jerott is always miserable and being with Marthe just continues this "way" with him. (NT) -- Lil, 08:29:16 03/30/09 Mon
        I love the MLS idea! (Around here MLS stands for multiple listings services = real estate stuff) I agee that Marthe's likeness was the main attraction, her personality isn't exactly winning. He must have thought he loved Marthe to marry her, wanted to love her and somehow make her a nicer, better person, which isn't possible with Marthe. She is who she is, for better or worse, and a loving, stable person isn't it. (NT) -- Denise, 15:44:53 03/30/09 Mon
        
        That's it! I knew that MLS stood for something but couldn't remember just what. It's the same here as in your neck of the woods, real estate listings. I recall perusing the MLS book when we were looking for a home the last time. (NT) -- Elaine, 16:45:54 03/30/09 Mon
        I'm wondering why we assume that only nice people can be truly loved? We say Jerott 'thought' he loved Marthe- but didn't he actually love her? Just because we find her annoying or awful, doesn't mean he didn't love her- love is such a complex emotion, and never tidy. I'm sure we all know someone in our own lives that we can't imagine having to spend a day with, much less a lifetime, but someone usually does live with them, and often loves them. Also, I don't think it should be discounted just how truly enslaved a person can become to beauty in physical form, such as Marthe possesses. (NT) -- celtgirl (), 16:47:11 03/30/09 Mon
        
        You make a good point. Just shows that beauty (inside & out) is in the eye of the beholder. (NT) -- Lil, 18:23:23 03/30/09 Mon
        I certainly don't feel that way. >>> -- Elaine (), 18:46:55 03/30/09 Mon
        
        At the same time, he didn't really seem to 'fit' for lack of a better term, as a Knight of the Order either- I wonder if Jerott is one of those souls that simply doesn't have a niche, or can't find it. (NT) -- celtgirl, 18:56:43 03/30/09 Mon
        
        Yes, I think there's evidence that ever since the loss of his first love Jerott was an incomplete man. (NT) -- Elaine, 20:12:34 03/30/09 Mon
        
        I understand what you're saying. The funeral I attended today was for the mother of a friend who was unfriendly, domineering and not a lovable sort at all. But I wouldn't hazard a guess as to what her death meant to her husband. Was there sincere love in their marriage - I don't know. As far as Jerott is concerned, I think he hoped for more in his marriage, certainly some love, which would have required seeing something different in Marthe than she had previously shown. He deserved more. (NT) -- Denise, 19:22:18 03/30/09 Mon
        
        This is just my opinion, but I think there are as many types of love as there are various couples- how does a person define sincere unless you're inside the marriage? Yes, he deserved more, but like many people in marriages, did not get it. I don't argue that point, only that we can't assume that he only thought he loved her, rather than genuinely did love her- I believe he did, and the line at the next to last chapter in the book, points to that as well. (NT) -- celtgirl, 19:28:11 03/30/09 Mon
        
        'Sincere' may not have been the word I really meant to use. Something that came to light today was how young his mother was, and especially how young she was when she was pregnant with my friend's older sister. My mind couldn't help but think that maybe they HAD to get married. She was so stern and he's so sweet.... I know, I'm bad! (NT) -- Denise, 19:48:52 03/30/09 Mon
        I think that quote has resonance even beyond Marthe. (NT) -- Elaine, 20:19:47 03/30/09 Mon

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