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Date Posted: 15:30:45 03/31/07 Sat
Author: Gibson
Subject: I don't know - I didn't like Annabeth very much last night. (inside)
In reply to: highplainswoman 's message, "Latest episode--for discussion's sake (inside)" on 06:37:45 03/31/07 Sat

I felt she was way too judgemental when she wasn't even directly involved in the situation. Yes, I know that the death of her husband is affecting her ability to see the 'shades of grey', and I know that the victim was way too close to it to be thinking clearly, but the whole episode depressed me. Yes those men did the unthinkable and deserved to be punished, but let's look at the big picture here and what they achieved in the end. In the end, a man who was sincerely trying to turn his life around and make ammends, was sent to prison, a purely evil, uncaring man who was the main perp of the crime got to walk scott-free, two children lost their father and will forever grow up with the shame that their father is a convict - not to mention the wife who now has to raise her children alone for the next 4 years (and there is a very real possibility that their marriage/family won't survive the incarceration), all for what? Did the victim feel any better at the end of the trial? I can't see how she would - all she had was the original apology from the remorseful man (which she would have still had, had it not all gone to trial), instead of thinking she had been the victim of a sort of 'date rape', she found out that she had actually been raped TWICE by two different men in a PLANNED crime, AND she found out that her husband lied to her and now she doesn't feel she can trust him. I dunno - it certainly doesn't sound like the whole thing was worth it to me - just to have one man's crime admitted in open court. I can understand her pain, but she and Annabeth both presented as being purely vindictive just for vindication's sake - I found it hard to have very much sympathy for them. If I had been Jimmy I would have snapped at her in the same way - I think she got way too emotionally involved and it cost them the case.
Also, what kind of a message were they sending to alcoholics trying to go through the 12-step program? They ended up sending the message that it's better to keep your mouth shut than go through a process that could very well turn your life around. That's of course just my take on it though!

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Replies:

[> [> You made some really good points! I think the ep did a good job of showing how one single terrible act has the potential to ruin way more lives than just the two people involved. Look at how wide this thing spread and how many people were affected. The whole thing was really sad. Not to mention sickening that the chief jerko got off scott-free. Makes me wonder how many other women he did that to that don't know. I think they should show a follow up ep where they finally convict the sorry man! -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 16:12:07 03/31/07 Sat [1]


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[> [> I agree about Annabeth, Gibson. I felt the same about her. I thought they went to trial with too little evidence and too much hope. The result was disasterous. I thought the last statement about "he's so bad he'll slip up again and then we'll get him for sure" was little comfort. -- SeaBeth, 16:13:27 03/31/07 Sat [1]


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[> [> [> I thought the 'dog with fleas' analogy in the beginning, was pretty accurate. -- mkim, 17:08:30 03/31/07 Sat [1]


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[> [> [> Also Conlon's witty comment to AB about "save that comment for your retirement speech" (excuse my paraphrase) was a putdown in a subtle way, so they didn't take all the conflict out. -- Jaggiegold, 19:48:09 03/31/07 Sat [1]


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[> [> I guess I'm one of those who have a hard time with the shades of gray. Inside.... -- sj, 21:45:23 03/31/07 Sat [1]

I agree that it was a no win situation for almost everyone. The exception being the rapist that got off without any punishment.

I think both the men should be in jail. I’m glad the one rapist has some compassion and is able to feel remorse for his actions, but the fact that he went on to have a wife and children and regretted raping that woman in no way means he shouldn't have to pay for a vicious horrible crime. I can't imagine thinking otherwise.

I feel sorry for the wife and kids, but his wife should be glad she found out her husband was a sexual offender. Obviously she didn't have the whole truth about him.

As far as the show goes, I think they look for ways of making the endings less than plain and simple, where most crime shows tend to tie things up.

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[> [> [> I didnt mean to imply that I thought either of them should get away, without significant jail time, I just think it was interesting that they were giving us examples of two types of criminals, some that might be rehabilitated(imagine that?) and those who probably never will, hence AB's comment, 'we'll get him eventually'. I do believe that some people who do horrible things have terrible remorse. Look at that pathetic guy who killed his 'teacher' wifes 18 yr old student lover. This guy has to go to jail, but his remorse breaks my heart, it was heart wrenching to watch. -- mkim, 22:23:32 03/31/07 Sat [1]


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[> [> [> [> I wasn't posting to anyone in particular mkim, just sharing my pov lol. Actually, the more I think about all the particulars of the ep the more disturbing it gets. -- sj, 00:44:10 04/01/07 Sun [1]


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[> [> [> [> [> But, more importantly, at least we got some Jimmy time!!! -- sj...who almost forgot her priorities lol., 00:47:38 04/01/07 Sun [1]


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Thats the truth, I was all set to deal with Jimmy Lite until the last 3 episodes. (I think theyre gonna be GOOD and Jimmy heavy)and we really did get to see more of him, but as you said, the episode was so thought provoking and disturbing at times that I was actually distracted(for a couple of seconds) I was just clarifying sj, I ramble on here so much, I wasnt sure I hadn t given the wrong impression. -- mkim, 12:31:53 04/01/07 Sun [1]


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[> [> followup on previous comments (inside) -- highplainswoman, 05:32:42 04/01/07 Sun [1]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, all. I feel slightly vindicated for the opening comments. I'm not sure I was all that clear on the point I was trying to make.

It all comes down to a matter to choice--and character, too, I might add. All of this happened years ago when all the actors in this scenario (and I'm talking about the characters, not the actual actors) were young and apt to make some foolish choices and dumb mistakes. (Haven't we all been "guilty" of that when we were younger???)

I honestly felt that the guy who ended up going to prison had some real "character" which displayed itself when he wrote the letter that started the whole ball rolling. He, at least, was willing to look at the demons in his own character and admit, so far as he was able to at the time, he was wrong. (And how often do we like to admit we were wrong about something, anyway??? I'm reminded of what Christ said at one time--forget the Scriptural reference--"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.")

Most recovering alocholics in AA are very sensitive souls--their emotional "nerve endings" are raw and "inflamed" (to borrow a medical analogy) and they end up "self-medicating" with alcohol to stop the resulting pain. Of course, that's no real solution--and recovering alcoholics in AA know that. Their real characters have been lost in the defensive walls they put up to hide their pain and it takes real courage, determination, and a large degree of self-discipline to "walk the walk", as the expression goes.

Personally, I don't consider the guy who went to prison as a "sexual offender" even though he "raped" one time!! On the other hand, the second rapist was a real creep with no real character and, from what we saw, no "redeeming social value".

The writers of the episode, in making Annabeth and the victim so judgmental were just reflecting a prevailing attitude in society. With that kind of "attitude" lurking out there, it's a wonder prisoners who have served their time can make a go of it once they reenter society at all!! And on the subject of "sexual offenders": when an 18-year old male has sex with a 17-year old female and it was concensual, technically, it's called "statutory rape". Does that make the 18-year old male a "rapist"? And, if convicted of such, does that make him a "sexual offender"? Personally, I don't think so. I would call that situation a case of raging hormones, actually--on both parties' part. Yet, it's more likely, given today's judgmental attitude, the male is the one who's going to go through life labeled "sexual offender" because of one event. Is that fair??

Enough.

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[> [> [> I really have enjoyed this discussion and your post but I have to respectfully disagree with your last paragraph....but also have some other comments about 'real' rehabilitation. Inside: -- mkim, 13:10:18 04/01/07 Sun [1]


First, I do hear what youre saying about 'consentual sex' but lets be real here. I have two sons and and when we did discuss this terribly uncomfortable subject when they were in their middle to late teens, the bottom line was this.

The law is the law, you dont get to adjust it to what's happening in your life now, you cannot be physically involved with a girl under 18 and not be a hell of alot of trouble, period.

I know, 18 year old, 20 year old young men make mistakes, but the onus is on them, and their parents to get it through to them that this kind of mistake could ruin THEM.

The attitudes about sex may be much more open where young people are concerned, it seems that I keep reading about kids beginning at a younger and younger age, BUT the laws have not changed and if a young man puts himself in that postition, he cant blame anyone but himself for the trouble he gets himself in.

A rapist is only one step above a pedophile in this society and that is a stigma that stays with a person for life. AND thats been true in this society for a long time, if a young man has any education at all, he has to have heard and understood what statutory rape is, and the consequences, so hey, it may not be exactly the same, but again, the law is the law and until it is changed, abide by it or ruin your life.

Mr. O Neil, in the story, has not only ruined his life, with one night of careless drunken cruelty, he cost his future wife and children an altered existence, for a lifetime.

Did anyone he respected, tell this kid when he was growing up how wrong that was? Did anyone make sure he heard them? I'm not putting it all on parents, but I think you have to go back and find out where this 'alcholic' came from.

NOW about rehabilitation. The point of our justice system is punishment, but it to a lesser degree is about rehabilitation(or it should be)The first step to rehab is to realize you did something wrong, to understand the gravity of your actions. O'Neil got it, while I agreed with AB that no matter how long ago this happened, it was agaisnt the law then too, with the rape drug that O'Neil was well aware was used...O' Neils remorse was very affecting for me. I believed him.

What I wonder is, how many people who are convicted are sorry for what they did? Are they sorry they got caught, or sorry for the act that put them there?

Wouldnt it be great if prison, for anyone who had the possiblity of coming out, was truly about rehabilitation?

The sad thing is the guy who got off scott free, is the guy who still doesnt get that he did anyting wrong, the way he looked at AB after he was aquitted was disgusting and a bit frightening. We'll see though, we may see this creep again.

Excellent post hpw, and everyone who is participating.

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[> [> [> [> Obviously the first man is to be given more credit than the one that got off for his attempt to make amends...but this wasn't just a young man making a dumb mistake-inside -- manette, 13:18:38 04/01/07 Sun [1]

Yes, he was really drunk, but he took her to his room. It was just the two of them. No one was egging him on. He took off her clothes and while she was yelling no, yelling for him to stop he raped her...and then he was not so drunk that he didn't think--oh yeah, I'm supposed to get up now and let my buddy in so he can rape her, too. That's not just a young man getting carried away and going too far and then feeling bad about it the next day. He got the deal his lawyer originally wanted for him and just because it sucks that the other man got off doesn't lessen his part in what happened.

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[> [> [> [> [> I totally agree, my discussion about young men making mistakes was more in answer to HPW's comments in her last paragraph. As I said, I dont think this guy felt bad enough the next day...if he had he would have 'Made Amends' a long time before he did. My point was, a young man is reponsible and will pay for what he doesn, whether he's young, drunk, sober or giving in to peer pressure. My Mom used to say, 'Right is right, and it doesnt 'wrong' anybody.' and 'You caint do wrong and get by' -- mkim, 14:26:56 04/01/07 Sun [1]


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[> [> [> Actually HPW, I have to disagree with you about your comments on statutory rape. Inside… -- doc, 16:28:19 04/01/07 Sun [1]

I live with this issue on a regular basis, or rather I deal with the consequences of statutory rape on a daily basis. Statutory rape is RARELY ever prosecuted when the sex occurs between consenting individuals. I might also add that the issue is rarely even raised when the male is 18 & the female 17. The issue most often comes up when Daddy is 20, 22, 24, etc, & Mommy is 14 or 15. I’m sorry but it is absolutely wrong when an ADULT male becomes involved with a young teenage girl. A young girl is simply not prepared to make difficult decisions in this regards & is easily manipulated…hence my involvement in taking care of the sick baby. Daddy can’t be bothered to think about birth control & teenager Mommy does know enough to ask or seek precautions.

Even taking all that into account, I personally have never seen a statutory rape case pursued, unless the sex was nonconsensual or the girl was very young, 12 maybe 13. In most case, the “relationship” is given a pass unless the parents of the girl choose to take issue.

As for the case shown on CTH…Rape is Rape. Just like murder is murder. At least, there may be extenuating circumstances in a murder (i.e. protecting yourself or another individual, who is too weak to protect themselves). As far as I’m concerned, there are NO extenuating circumstances for rape. NO MEANS NO! I can’t think of any circumstance where raping another individual can be dismissed, condoned or argued to be appropriate. Feeling sorry doesn’t undo the crime…doesn’t give a girl/woman back her ‘sense of control,’ self-esteem or virginity. Just like feeling sorry for a murder doesn’t give the victim back their life. Maybe the victim, in this case (the CTH case), was finally able to regain some sense of self-control by standing up for herself…by seeking justice. Maybe the fact, that someone FINALLY listened to her & believed her, will in itself help her start to heal.

This case was based on a real life event. In the real case, the victim repeated went to the university administration & asked for help, for an investigation into the allegations, & for some sort of retribution from the perpetrator. The administration didn’t listen and didn’t take action, except to bring both students before a peer review board. It’s no wonder, years later when the victim had real proof in the form of a letter, that she chose to pursue the case in criminal court. It was her first real chance to regain some self-control & bring her attacker to justice. Being able to regain self-control & self-esteem is part of the healing process for any victim. And until that happens (whenever, however), the victim can never really begin to move on.

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[> [> [> Its interesting to see everyones POV. Highplainswoman, I have to disagree with your opinion that the man who raped "once" isn't a sexual offender. If commiting a rape and then allowing the next guy outside the door to also rape the victim isn't a sexual offence then maybe you should explain what is? I'm certainly confused. Rape is offensive and its sexual. That man with all the character has both points of the term covered. -- sj...with my black and white glasses firmly in place., 22:26:31 04/01/07 Sun [1]


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