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Subject: Status issue


Author:
Cyril
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Date Posted: 17:52:17 12/09/20 Wed

I read here about many saying how embarrassed or ashamed they were to be seen naked by the opposite gender.
For my part the problem came more from the mere fact that I was made to "go without a swimtrunk" at the beach while girls in my family would still keep their swimsuit.
I wouldn't say that I cared so much even about my parts being seen or not, as it seems that others around didn't even care about seeing my nudity.
I simply felt resentful to be treated more carelessly (more childishly maybe too) than family girls my age, though with time I tended to accept that state of undress in comparison with girls as I was not the only boy in that situation.
Does anyone understand what I mean with this and/or experienced it himself/herself?

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Status issue


Author:
spelvin
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Date Posted: 04:54:20 12/10/20 Thu

I think I understand.
What you needed was more naked adolescent and adult male swimmers on the beach.
Boys/girls tend to want to dress modestly/immodestly when they see men/women dressing modestly/immodestly.
Let me give you some examples:

////immodesty in boys////

A younger boy could be impressed when seeing an older male nude or seminude.
On another forum, two contributors remember seeing secondary school boys running cross-country shirtless and thought that the boys looked tough and masculine.
They both looked forward to running cross-country shirtless.
http://www.historyworld.co.uk/photo.php?offset=500&sort=0&l1=Childhood&l2=&id=1602
January 18, 2015
January 21, 2015

James grew up in Great Britain in the 80’s, and happened to notice immodestly dressed adult males.
He saw shirtless men washing cars, mowing lawns, painting houses, and playing football. He specifically remembers a shirtless passenger on a 15-mile railroad trip.
Consequently, he enjoyed riding his bike in warm weather, wearing only a swim suit.
http://www.historyworld.co.uk/photo.php?id=1607&offset=0&sort=0&l1=Childhood&l2=
(March 18. 2014)

////modesty in boys////

On the other hand, a boy made to swim naked in the presence of a younger girl relative, who is not naked, could feel childish.
https://www.voy.com/223876/1846.html
https://www.voy.com/223876/1982.html
https://www.voy.com/223876/2518.html
https://www.voy.com/223876/2294.html
https://www.voy.com/223876/1862.html
https://www.voy.com/223876/1864.html
https://www.voy.com/223876/1866.html

When a boy is old enough to dress, undress, and bathe without his mother’s assistance, he could regard it as an affront to his masculinity to be nude under the supervision of a woman a generation older than himself.
For this reason, Lyons believes that “nudity in front of a female swim instructor could have hurt a boy’s pride in his emergent manhood.”
http://www.frank-answers.com/frank-answers-about-swimming-naked-commentary/

////immodesty in girls////

Immodesty could also be a mark of maturity for girls.
When the Olympics were held in London one year, a group of school girls were impressed by the sight of women athletes wearing halter tops and shorts.
They campaigned unsuccessfully for permission for similar freedom in phys ed class.

http://www.historyworld.co.uk/photo.php?offset=150&sort=0&l1=Childhood&l2=&id=1602
(May 12, 2018)

In the days in which videocassettes were the rage, Karen checked out what she thought was a Care Bears video.
When her 4-year-old daughter Sally saw the video, Karen realized that it was a mislabeled Playboy striptease video.
That made Sally want to dance like the women in the video.
Because of the “emotional distress” which resulted, Karen sued Blockbuster Video.
She considered the defendant responsible for “medical and/or counseling expenses.”
The judge, however, did not agree.
Lindsell-Roberts, S.; Hobbie, K. R.; LeVallient, L.; & Theroux, M. 2004. Wacky laws, weird decisions & strange statutes. New York: Sterling: 85-86

Alexis, who used to work in the fashion industry, speaks about immodesty in fashion design for little girls.
According to Alexis, 9-year-old girls look up to 13-year-old girls, and the industry began to notice this in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s.
The trend in dance wear subsequently spread.
Alexis comments, “if mothers didn’t allow this crap, it wouldn’t translate to kids’ clothes!”
http://binkiesandbriefcases.com/dessing-our-daughters/

////modesty in boys////

At first, pro basketball players wore minimal shorts.
During the Seventies and Eighties, boys also wore minimal shorts.
But then Michael Jordan requested longer shorts, and by 1990, most of the other pro basketball players followed suit.
At the same time, boys also started wearing longer shorts.
A mere coincidence? I think not!
https://www.dish.com/dig/sports/the-evolution-of-baggy-basketball-shorts/
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-women%E2%80%99s-shorts-shorter-than-mens-shorts
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/07/short-shorts-weird-masculinity-good
[> [> Subject: Re: Status issue


Author:
Cyril
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Date Posted: 15:43:48 12/11/20 Fri

Thank you for this "multi-angle" analysis, spelvin.
Are you suggesting that my frustration about being naked was due to the fact that I "compared" myself with older boys or men? I'm not sure it was exactly the case as I believe that seeing at least adolescent boys naked just like I was would not have stopped me from comparing with girls, particularly if they were the same age as me.
On the other hand wouldn't the perception of girls (relatives or not) be modified about us boys who were "still" naked compared to those who were wearing a proper swim trunk?
Also, I wanted to know your opinion about another aspect of this situation that I experienced.
I could perfectly understand how girls in my family obviously prefered to keep their swimsuit as we were in a public environment since they saw that it was not the norm for other girls (same age or even younger) to stay naked at the beach... but do you understand or see it logical that they remained extremely modest when we would be in our family circle too? I mean that even though they had seen me naked numerous times naked at beaches, they never happened to be fully undressed in front of me in other "private circumstances" at home or in our family pool.
[> [> [> Subject: A matter of Fashion


Author:
Observer
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Date Posted: 22:35:50 12/11/20 Fri

One must take this whole issue from the prevailing fashion of each time.
Up to maybe the 50s it was fashionable for boys to swim naked, while the girls wore modest one piece swimsuits.

During the 60s boys started wearing brief speedo type swimsuits while girls and women started wearing bikinis or two piece swimsuits.

In the 70s and 80s it was fashionable for boys to wear those short shorts as normal daily wear in Summer, as Spelvin mentioned, although swimwear remained relatively the same as the 60s.
Many sports, both make and female, was also played in those short shorts at this time.

The 90s probably started to change everything, with boys and men wearing longer shorts both for swimming and for sports, with girls and women's fashion varying from revealing almost everything to very modest clothing again.

So one must take everything in context of the time.
Boys were used to swimming naked prior to the 60s while modesty was always expected of girls.
I don't think there was any question of 'why' at the time, it was just accepted by everyone as the norm, including by most of the boys who swam naked.
This can be seen from old photos of the time which all show boys happily swimming naked in public places and did not even mind being photographed doing so.
The idea of forced nudity for swimming was not always the case, it was probably accepted as normal by most boys at least prior to the 50s or 60s.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Status issue


Author:
spelvin (Cyril)
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Date Posted: 01:40:08 12/12/20 Sat