VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 123456789[10] ]


[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 05/ 6/15 11:23:26am Wed
Author: John F. Kerry (Seared, seared in my memory)
Subject: Re: Marv Hubbard
In reply to: Frank Zappa 's message, "Re: Marv Hubbard" on 05/ 6/15 8:47:53am Wed

Hubbard and van Eeghen might have been in the same backfield for a couple of games, but they weren't both 100 rushers at the time. van Eeghen didn't achieve a 100 yd performance until 1976, after Hubbard's Raiders career was over. Furthermore, Hubbard never played on an Oakland Super Bowl team. Oakland was in the SB in 1968 (Hubbard arrived for 1969 season) and in 1977,81,84,2003 (after Hubbard's tenure at Oakland). Nevertheless, both backs are still in the top 5 all-time rushers in Oakland history.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]


Replies:

[> [> Re: Marv Hubbard -- 'gate80, 05/ 6/15 1:26:33pm Wed

Hubbard's career 4.82 yards/carry is only topped by a handful of NFL RBs. He is always on lists of top-5 RBs in Oakland Raider history (not just statistically), along of course with Mark vanEeghen, who I've seen as high as #2.

Howard Cosell would always mention Colgate when he was doing a game in which Hubbard or vanEeghen played, so Frank Zappa's memory is not too far off. In 1977 Hubbard, vanEeghen, and Mark Murphy were all playing in the NFL, and the Red Raiders also did pretty well that year. The amount of publicity Colgate got from their football team and NFL players would not be believed by those too young to have witnessed it. It drove the faculty nuts, and, well, we all know the rest of the story...


[ Edit | View ]



[> [> [> With all due respect...... -- Raider Archivist, 05/ 7/15 8:38:31pm Thu

Hubbard's era was within the all-male Colgate of yore.
I attended Gate then and started on the freshman football team.
So, For the youngsters among us, it's important to point out that Marv was sort of a "fish out of water" at Gate. I believe he was a KDR and had to spend an academic year in the midst of his regular matriculation at the community college where Gate jocks and others went to regain academic standing and return to Gate. He was otherwise, probably a solid citizen. This is not to imply that jocks of the time academically deviated from their classmates ( compared to pre and post Gate PL standards ). But there were clearly "outliers" and it was just accepted as such. In fairness, there were "outliers" on the other end of the Acadia graph at the same time.
Tom Wilson, who has a Leadership award named after him was a great DB on those same teams. Tom was a terrific student and went on to get his MBA at Wharton.

I don't know if the academic outliers like Marv are as visible today under the PL rules. But the academic admissions rules/exceptions were much less "codified" then, than they are now.
My curiosity in this is whether jocks or subcultures of teams are more integrated into the general student body today than they were back in Marv's day ?






ubbard's career 4.82 yards/carry is only topped by a
>handful of NFL RBs. He is always on lists of top-5 RBs
>in Oakland Raider history (not just statistically),
>along of course with Mark vanEeghen, who I've seen as
>high as #2.
>
>Howard Cosell would always mention Colgate when he was
>doing a game in which Hubbard or vanEeghen played, so
>Frank Zappa's memory is not too far off. In 1977
>Hubbard, vanEeghen, and Mark Murphy were all playing
>in the NFL, and the Red Raiders also did pretty well
>that year. The amount of publicity Colgate got from
>their football team and NFL players would not be
>believed by those too young to have witnessed it. It
>drove the faculty nuts, and, well, we all know the
>rest of the story...


[ Edit | View ]


[> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect...... -- pigskin, 05/ 8/15 10:10:26am Fri

>Hubbard's era was within the all-male Colgate of yore.
>I attended Gate then and started on the freshman
>football team.
>So, For the youngsters among us, it's important to
>point out that Marv was sort of a "fish out of water"
>at Gate. I believe he was a KDR and had to spend an
>academic year in the midst of his regular
>matriculation at the community college where Gate
>jocks and others went to regain academic standing and
>return to Gate. He was otherwise, probably a solid
>citizen. This is not to imply that jocks of the time
>academically deviated from their classmates ( compared
>to pre and post Gate PL standards ). But there were
>clearly "outliers" and it was just accepted as such.
>In fairness, there were "outliers" on the other end of
>the Acadia graph at the same time.
>Tom Wilson, who has a Leadership award named after him
>was a great DB on those same teams. Tom was a terrific
>student and went on to get his MBA at Wharton.
>
>I don't know if the academic outliers like Marv are as
>visible today under the PL rules. But the academic
>admissions rules/exceptions were much less "codified"
>then, than they are now.
>My curiosity in this is whether jocks or subcultures
>of teams are more integrated into the general student
>body today than they were back in Marv's day ?

Dan Keating and Lee Woltman were of my era and I'm sure they were not outliers or "fish out of water." They went on to lead successful lives and made contributions to the world at large. I think there's a misconception that "back in the day" FB players were just animals brought in to play the game and were somehow outside the system academically. I saw no evidence of this. They were integrated into the college socially and academically and took their responsibilities in both spheres very seriously. I'm sure this was true of player on the 1932 team as well.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect...... -- jb74, 05/ 8/15 10:50:46am Fri

>>Hubbard's era was within the all-male Colgate of yore.
>>I attended Gate then and started on the freshman
>>football team.
>>So, For the youngsters among us, it's important to
>>point out that Marv was sort of a "fish out of water"
>>at Gate. I believe he was a KDR and had to spend an
>>academic year in the midst of his regular
>>matriculation at the community college where Gate
>>jocks and others went to regain academic standing and
>>return to Gate. He was otherwise, probably a solid
>>citizen. This is not to imply that jocks of the time
>>academically deviated from their classmates ( compared
>>to pre and post Gate PL standards ). But there were
>>clearly "outliers" and it was just accepted as such.
>>In fairness, there were "outliers" on the other end of
>>the Acadia graph at the same time.
>>Tom Wilson, who has a Leadership award named after him
>>was a great DB on those same teams. Tom was a terrific
>>student and went on to get his MBA at Wharton.
>>
>>I don't know if the academic outliers like Marv are as
>>visible today under the PL rules. But the academic
>>admissions rules/exceptions were much less "codified"
>>then, than they are now.
>>My curiosity in this is whether jocks or subcultures
>>of teams are more integrated into the general student
>>body today than they were back in Marv's day ?
>
>Dan Keating and Lee Woltman were of my era and I'm
>sure they were not outliers or "fish out of water."
>They went on to lead successful lives and made
>contributions to the world at large. I think there's a
>misconception that "back in the day" FB players were
>just animals brought in to play the game and were
>somehow outside the system academically. I saw no
>evidence of this. They were integrated into the
>college socially and academically and took their
>responsibilities in both spheres very seriously. I'm
>sure this was true of player on the 1932 team as well.
My class (1974) was the first incoming coed class. Campus population was about 2,400 men and 100 women. We came to have something of a perspective on both eras. Our class had some decent athletes (Tom Parr, Mark vanEegan. Mike Milbury), all of whom carried on in distinguished careers after their playing days. I think each of them would have held their own in any Colgate setting. before or since 1970-74. I was a KDR, and I believe Marv Hubbard was a Lambda Chi.( The Lambchops, ironically, inhabited what is now the Bunche Peace House). Legend has it that Marv, to stay in shape and vent, used to go "one on one" with the basement wall, and usually won. Further football lore from those days regarded membership in the vaunted "dot Club" ( a GPA of point something) and annual Spring matriculation to Mitchell Junior College in New London, CT ( aka "Colgate by the sea") to enable fall eligibility. Marv was a remarkable player and by all accounts was a rare friend to many and a great family man. A very large loss.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect...... -- 'gate80, 05/ 8/15 4:47:05pm Fri

It seems odd to speak of Hubbard's academic deficiencies within days of his death. But since the topic has been broached, I did have an acquaintance from Jamestown who saw Hubbard play in high school, and said Marv was a great player and not so great scholar. Though you would think the ability to play in 3 Pro Bowls and have one of the highest yards per carry average in NFL history would count for something in the admissions department. It certainly would at Stanford.

It was asked if there were outliers like Marv in the PL era. Similar things were said about our Payton award winners (though I don't know if that's valid). I do know I'm glad they went to Colgate. As to whether athletes are more integrated into the general student body today than in Hubbard's day, the opinion usually expressed on this board is that they are not, and that in fact the opposite is true.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect...... -- Gate Raider, 05/ 8/15 7:09:36pm Fri

I believe athletes are now more integrated into the student body than in the past. There are athletes in singing groups, drama groups, volunteer organizations, political groups, fund raising etc. Keep in mind that participating in a sport at today's Colgate does not leave a lot of time for much else than study. There are athletes that also have GPA's that are way up there. Current softball player has a 3.7 in molecular bio., a few years ago a hockey player was accepted to Harvard medical school.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect...... -- Gate63, 05/ 8/15 7:14:54pm Fri

>I believe athletes are now more integrated into the
>student body than in the past. There are athletes in
>singing groups, drama groups, volunteer organizations,
>political groups, fund raising etc. Keep in mind that
>participating in a sport at today's Colgate does not
>leave a lot of time for much else than study. There
>are athletes that also have GPA's that are way up
>there. Current softball player has a 3.7 in molecular
>bio., a few years ago a hockey player was accepted to
>Harvard medical school.

Don't forget Ty Edmond who has a 4.0 in neuroscience.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect...... -- jb74, 05/ 9/15 12:32:19am Sat

>>I believe athletes are now more integrated into the
>>student body than in the past. There are athletes in
>>singing groups, drama groups, volunteer organizations,
>>political groups, fund raising etc. Keep in mind that
>>participating in a sport at today's Colgate does not
>>leave a lot of time for much else than study. There
>>are athletes that also have GPA's that are way up
>>there. Current softball player has a 3.7 in molecular
>>bio., a few years ago a hockey player was accepted to
>>Harvard medical school.
>
>Don't forget Ty Edmond who has a 4.0 in neuroscience.
I applaud every academic accomplishment by every current or recent team member in any sport. I would like to think that Admissions, despite the hamstringing pressures of the US News + World Report's error-prone data crunches and any other mysterious directives from on high, still has the ability to move beyond statistical boxes to enrich the Colgate community with the enrollment of gifted athletes whose academic and real world potential may not have peaked at age 17. ( I would love to see an in-depth analysis of what percentage of the Colgate endowment and Annual Fund was created by the efforts of Alums with respect to their Class Academic Rankings. I suspect that we have been blessed
by a stellar group of real-world achievers). We are a tiny community in a remote location. Diversity means everything to the Colgate experience, and athletic achievements should play into that construct. Our history confirms the disproportionate level of esteem and honor that Colgate's sports, coaches and athletes have provided to the University's reputation and renown, and that base resource merits our ongoing respect and assistance.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect...... -- Steve, 05/ 9/15 12:46:36am Sat

Of course today's Colgate student-athletes are more integrated into campus life than they may have been years ago. The school and its offerings are far more diverse, richer in opportunities for extracurricular engagement and far better for it. It's been a very long time since the 60s, 70s and 80s and the world has changed... I wonder if those who may think otherwise even know and have interacted with a set of these student-athletes personally. I do and have and it's been an absolute pleasure.

And the level of professionalism is much higher too. And everyone on campus gets the message. Did you see the highlight video on last weeks athletic department awards? Maybe attended a DU scholarship awards dinner?

The standards of delivery and expectations are personified in staff such as Vicky Chun and Ann-Marie Guglieri as well as of their articulate, fair and demanding coaches. I once overheard a Navy coach state that Colgate is "the class in the Patriot League". I will take that.

Go 'gate!


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Tell the faculty -- 'gate80, 05/ 9/15 7:23:02am Sat

>Of course today's Colgate student-athletes are more
>integrated into campus life than they may have been
>years ago.

"We believe that we have created two cultures on our campus. One in four men and women on our campus is a varsity athlete. Because of the immense demands on them, athletes are often isolated. They are cut off from mainstream campus culture and academic life"
- Open letter on Athletics at Colgate, signed by a quarter of the faculty 18 months ago


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tell the faculty -- Steve, 05/ 9/15 9:28:33am Sat

That may well be their perspective- and it might as well be understood in terms of certain objectives they were promoting in this letter- but it's not mine.

Why? Of course athletes with 20 hours of NCAA permitted training and competition are not "mainstream". So what? Neither are the musicians, lab devoted students or those with part time jobs etc demanding a lot of their time.

What all these students have in common is that they have far better support and facilities than in previous decades and are thereby able to make more effective and efficient use of their discretionary time. And what do they do with it? They are extremely disciplined and dedicated and participate in mainstream activities that complement their interests, as they see fit.

Colgate is the richer for it and that's partly why it is now so very highly regarded ranked. I have always maintained that the athletic profile of Colgate sets it apart from the elite D III schools and it's a tribute to these student-athletes that we can now compete for and secure the best applicants nationally and internationally. And that includes the large(r) prestige schools and Ivies. And our student athletes are representative of the entire student body- as individuals and by any measure, as their GPAs, awards, graduation rates and post grad outcomes show.

Go 'gate!


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tell the faculty -- Cr, 05/ 9/15 9:33:16am Sat

>>Of course today's Colgate student-athletes are more
>>integrated into campus life than they may have been
>>years ago.
>
>"We believe that we have created two cultures on our
>campus. One in four men and women on our campus is a
>varsity athlete. Because of the immense demands on
>them, athletes are often isolated. They are cut off
>from mainstream campus culture and academic life"
>- Open letter on Athletics at Colgate, signed by a
>quarter of the faculty 18 months ago

Tell the faculty to butt out. Freedom of choice for lifestyle of their choosing! Freeze tuition and salaries for a couple of years after tuition increases double the inflation rate for 15 years is enough!


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tell the faculty -- William James, 05/ 9/15 10:43:27am Sat

>Tell the faculty to butt out. Freedom of choice for
>lifestyle of their choosing! Freeze tuition and
>salaries for a couple of years after tuition increases
>double the inflation rate for 15 years is enough!

While I appreciate that not everyone will have the same thoughts these issues, I certainly do hope faculty do not stop caring about Colgate's students. Communication and joint understanding of Colgate's overall mission and the role of athletics in a highly selective liberal arts college should drive us finding common ground, not commands to "butt out" of caring about Colgate and its students.

And, while we are on the topic, who said tuition increases are going to faculty?

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septemberoctober_2011/features/administrators_ate_my_tuition031641.php?page=all

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html?_r=0


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tell the faculty -- maven, 05/ 9/15 11:41:08am Sat

>>Tell the faculty to butt out. Freedom of choice for
>>lifestyle of their choosing! Freeze tuition and
>>salaries for a couple of years after tuition increases
>>double the inflation rate for 15 years is enough!
>
>While I appreciate that not everyone will have the
>same thoughts these issues, I certainly do hope
>faculty do not stop caring about Colgate's students.
>Communication and joint understanding of Colgate's
>overall mission and the role of athletics in a highly
>selective liberal arts college should drive us finding
>common ground, not commands to "butt out" of caring
>about Colgate and its students.
>
>And, while we are on the topic, who said tuition
>increases are going to faculty?
>
> >href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septemb
>eroctober_2011/features/administrators_ate_my_tuition03
>1641.php?page=all">http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/mag
>azine/septemberoctober_2011/features/administrators_ate
>_my_tuition031641.php?page=all

>
> >href="http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/
>the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html?_r=0
>">http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-

>real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html?_r=0



Increased tuition goes to faculty(Tony Aveni $247,000 pa), more admin people and buildings. Students don't need to be told what to do and how to think. The amount of work demanded of them "teaches" them how to work hard. Faculty are not parents...just teach faculty don't push your agendas.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tell the faculty -- Steve, 05/10/15 12:42:43am Sun

What's all this? There is less than half of any story or narrative in the last few posts.

1- Colgate is a university staffed by professionals who have earned their degrees, their positions and their contracted salaries. They are paid according to market rates as negotiated within a competitive market. And while they don't tell you how to do your jobs they do have an obligation to try and influence change as they see fit. So what's wrong with a (minority) segment of faculty voicing their opinions about anything- and that includes the sports programs- as per this letter?

2- Dave Roach was a terrible people manager from the start, in my opinion. Maybe he was a good henchman but it was a shame that such a personality developed over time when a part time consultant of quality could have recommended whatever good changes be put across. So if that's what it took to end the paid (remember his "sabbatical"? I would love to read his research paper and its (ahem) worthwhile findings), well, that's the price you pay for such a mistake.

3- So what that there are some full pay foreign students? If it were not for the excellent results of the 2012-ending capital campaign and the ongoing appeal of Colgate to full pays, we would not have offered 68 more funded admission slots this year alone to worthy domestic applicants. Got it? There is a financial dynamic in play / this is no zero sum game. Now if someone wants to endow scholarships favor the midwestern small town applicants, you are free to do so.

Just a thought... How about getting back to some productive discussion as to how to support the Department of Athletics and/or your own favorite program(s). I am keen on learning how Starr will be repurposed and what funds are needed to achieve it. So when I see Vicky at Reunion I will ask the question.

By the way, the webcam was installed to survey the NAF site but right now it shows what looks like a close up of a gravel patch. Maybe in the next few days it will be improve with needed additional bandwith. The link is at gocolgateraiders.com, New Athletic Facility- See Progress.

Go 'gate!


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tell the faculty -- The Lone Haranguer, 05/ 9/15 1:44:38pm Sat

According to the Form 990, in 2013 out of the top-12 highly compensated employees at Colgate, 10 were admin and 2 were listed as "professor." The most highly compensated? (put down any drinks and sharp instruments) - David Roach! What pushed him to the top of the list at $669k was his $425k severance package. Money well spent, but sheesh!


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tell the faculty -- Maven, 05/ 9/15 2:55:04pm Sat

>According to the Form 990, in 2013 out of the top-12
>highly compensated employees at Colgate, 10 were admin
>and 2 were listed as "professor." The most highly
>compensated? (put down any drinks and sharp
>instruments) - David Roach! What pushed him to the top
>of the list at $669k was his $425k severance package.
>Money well spent, but sheesh!


Do you know why we have so many foreign students? Because most are Full Pay! Meanwhile Midwestern small town folks are next to impossible to find at Gate.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Tell the faculty -- Steve, 05/10/15 1:20:22am Sun

What's going on here? How about some substantive and constructive dialogue?

1- Colgate staff are professionals, they have earned their degrees, their positions and negotiated their compensation. And as such have an obligation to promote change as they see fit. And while they don't tell you how to do your jobs, they get on with theirs. So what's so wrong with some faculty, a minority at that, endorsing a letter proposing changes in athletics?

2- Dave Roach was a terrible AD in my view, given his overall performance and the terms of his departure. Maybe he was good as a short term henchman, if one were needed, but then a short term consultant could have done a better job with less lasting downside. So if that's the cost of ridding us of him, well, that's a shame. (Too bad though that I did not get a chance to read his sabbatical thesis and recommendations before he left town...)

3- What's wrong with foreign full pay students? If it were not for full pays on top of our most successful 2012-ending capital campaign we would not have been able to offer 68 more aided admission slots this year alone to domestic students. Now if you want to endow a scholarship(s) for midwestern small town students you should get on it!

How about some supportive discussion for improving the quality and depth of athletics? I am interested in particular in donating towards the repurposing of Starr and will ask Vicky Chun about it at Reunion. And about momentum, I see that the webcam on the NAF is live on gocolgateraiders.com although it seems to show a patch of gravel so far. It also needs more bandwith but I expect this rectified soon.

Go 'gate!


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Article on Marv -- The Future, 05/11/15 12:16:56pm Mon

He certainly sounding like the type of guy you want to have on your team.

http://buckyandsully.buffalonews.com/2015/05/07/marv-hubbard-recalled-as-epitome-of-toughness/


[ Edit | View ]





[ Contact Forum Admin ]


Forum timezone: GMT-5
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.