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Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
kermit
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Date Posted: 18:00:01 01/21/07 Sun
In reply to: Mario 's message, "Green Peafowl Species" on 15:39:45 01/10/07 Wed

>Mario,
where do you live? Do you keep peafowl? Would you like to be involved in a Green Peafowl action plan?

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Replies:
[> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
kenboy
[Edit]

Date Posted: 18:15:56 01/21/07 Sun

I'm not Mario but I would.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
k
[Edit]

Date Posted: 21:30:05 01/24/07 Wed

Great!
[> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 01:47:37 01/24/07 Wed

Kermit, I cannot reveal much info about where I live. I don't own peafowl, but I definitely think that the Green peafowl needs to be saved.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
k
[Edit]

Date Posted: 14:03:01 01/24/07 Wed

.. I meant are you living in the USA?
Where did you learn about Green Peafowl?
What does your interest in them derive from?
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 20:55:37 01/26/07 Fri

I'm just a normal person, taking a trip to ------ (don't want to say) and I'm from ------. Once I saw a real Green Peafowl at a zoo I was wowed. I don't live in the USA.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Kermit
[Edit]

Date Posted: 10:04:25 01/27/07 Sat

Hollas. Quies.
Kenboy is in anyone else want to get involved in the green peafowl action plan?
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 02:55:01 02/01/07 Thu

If I were older I would want to get involved in the action plan but first, publish something about the seven species notion!
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 18:55:48 02/01/07 Thu

Why is there no mentioning of yunnanensis on kicking thorn and what happened to Pavo suparnaensi
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 21:58:56 02/04/07 Sun

What I really need are the full scientific names of each and every species and their subspecies,as well as their common names. I want to know what the Resplendent Kra (Lesser Pahang) 's latin name is (I think P. m. malacense or malacensi, as ThoroughResolve thought). Also, what is Baluran race javanensis's name?

I made this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Frankyboy5 (by me as Frankyboy5). However, I got lots of the taxonomy mixed up!

Some subspecies names are from Wolfgang Mennig's german PDF. He's a great guy, I guess, but he should be more aware about the notion of seven species. He already knows about annamensis, angkorensis (or angkorensi), laotius, vietnamensis yunnanensis, but still thinks they are conspecific! I have only done research on Green Peafowl taxonomy for a few months but am getting lots of info.

WPA UK is STUPID for "reintroducing" (more like introducing) Javans into Malay! What if......

They (isolated populations in wild) mix up and you will get hybrids!

WPA UK sucks! Then there is the guy who switched the DNA samples!

To WPA UK: Wrong species!!!!!! Pavo muticus is really a complex of several species!!!!!! Javan is NOT identical to Malay birds!!!!!!Stop reintroductions into Malaysia NOW!!!!!!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 07:02:17 02/06/07 Tue

Wolfgang Mennig think that the birds are still conspecific! That's stupid considering the genetic distance between species of Dragonbirds. Contact him about the superspecies complex notion!

Fortunately, he is aware of annamensis and yunnanensis and even says that annamensis has subspecies inside subspecies!

Being lazy I would name the Hainan species Pavo hainanensis Hainan Dragonbird!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 07:04:03 02/06/07 Tue

Who thought of the name Dragonbird? Why, I ask? Because there is no info on the net except for Wikipedia and its mirrors, Pavonine and Kicking Thorn that have things about the Green Peafowl being called the Dragonbird!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Kermit
[Edit]

Date Posted: 18:04:13 02/07/07 Wed

>Wolfgang Mennig think that the birds are still
>conspecific! That's stupid considering the genetic
>distance between species of Dragonbirds. Contact him
>about the superspecies complex notion!
>

Wolfgang is not a systematist. He is a very intellegent aviculturist and a conservative one at that. Wolfgang is comfortable reporting the facts that are well substantiated by science and scientists. While he is more than aware of some of the different morphotypes described on kickingthorn and pavonine and indeed helped me create these sites, he is not going to put his neck in a noose and report the sort of things I foolishly do.
>Fortunately, he is aware of annamensis and yunnanensis
>and even says that annamensis has subspecies inside
>subspecies!

ALot more work needs to be completed before the classification is completed on green peafowls.
In my personal opinion annamensis is not a subspecies of muticus but rather its own species. Annamensis has a number of geographic races that are more or less synonymous in range with members of the Black Silver pheasant tribe, e.g., lewisi, engelbachii, annamensis, beli-
another ecological species of green peafowl - Pavo imperator ( not Pavo muticus imperator) replaces annamensis in southern Laos and it shares its range with-berliozi a white silver pheasant genetically allied with other white silver pheasants and quite distinctive genetically and phenotypically from the black silver clade.


>
>Being lazy I would name the Hainan species Pavo
>hainanensis Hainan Dragonbird!

I'll let the Chinese vertebrate paleontologists name the species. It is an odd looking bird, with a wider longer bill than a typical peafowl -


as for the term Dragonbird, no one in Asia ever knew the latin term Pea(P as in Padre) Fowl. Asians knew the peafowl since the very beginning of their many respective histories as snake killer; snake dancer, dragon bird, serpent dancer and so on and so forth.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
k
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:06:43 02/08/07 Thu

This is how the Green Peafowl forms are described currently:

Pavo muticus (species)and then the second name in this instance, imperator (subspecies).

Now here is how the Silver Pheasant forms are described currently:

Lophura nycthemera (species) and then the second name, in this instance, annamensis (subspecies).

Anyone at all interested in systematics of any galliform bird really should investigate the Lophura pheasants.
Each major species clade is an ecological species. The same can be said for Pavo peafowls. That said, Green Peafowl are ~2 million years older than Lophura pheasants, and while each green peafowl is superficially similar especially in phenotypey, each geographic form represents another ancient branch in an even older tree rooted in the antiquity of the first Galliform birds. Lophura pheasants are derived of later and still very ancient branches but they are derived of extinct genera that evolved from one of the older branchings. Peafowl are a surviving tree of their own.

Getting back on task here, in my opinion and based on academic dedication to objective facts-the Annametic silver pheasant described above as Lophura nycthemera annamensis is actually its own species. It would be written up as Lophura annamensis. All other black silver pheasants of the Annametic Mountain range would thus be sister species of annamensis or subspecific races of the same species.
The Cambodian Black Silver or " Lewis's" for example, would be Lophura lewisi as it is an isolated form with no contact with any other White silver, Black Silver, Kalij or Fireback pheasant species. The Boloven or " Engelbach's " black silver would be a sister species of annamensis: Lophura annamensis engelbachii.

Getting back to peafowls- what Delacour described as Pavo muticus imperator is actually a bit more complex.

Those ecological species of green peafowl that inhabit broadleaf evergreen habitats ( a prehistoric forest type defined as refugia or relictual forest biomes) would be theoretically described as a single species: Pavo annamensis. The Elephant Mountain form might be its own species as it is isolated and unique in voice, behaviors and phenotype. Bokorensis would thus be listed as Pavo bokorensis a closely allied species of the Boloven Plateau form Pavo annamensis annamensis.


These different forms of green peafowl are not Delacour's imperator just as the Black silvers are not White Silvers.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 15:16:58 03/02/07 Fri

What happened to P. suparnaensi?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 05:47:55 02/10/07 Sat

>In my personal opinion annamensis is not a subspecies of muticus but rather its own species.

I agree!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Kermit
[Edit]

Date Posted: 06:25:29 03/03/07 Sat

>"Why is there no mentioning of yunnanensis on kicking
>thorn and what happened to Pavo suparnaensi"

I should have changed the information on Pavonine.
Pavo antiqus is suparnaensi. The yunnanensis mentioned is a subspecies of Pavo imperator. Yunnan is a huge country with many completely different ecosystems. It is also an ancient place with forests as old as any on Borneo or Java. There are at least four distinct genotypic forms of peafowl naturally occurring in Yunnan/Tibet. These are the Deqen, Pavo antiqus; the Kunming, Pavo imperator yunnanensis and its cousin the Laotion imperator. Meanwhile the Shan state spicifer is present in northern most Shan states in Myanmar and may cross into Yunnan.

The determination of colour as a way to dilineate these phenotypes is not entirely useful. Every green peafowl female and male will as the season progresses and the plumage becomes abraded with age and exposure to UV light will appear darker and duller than during the beginning of the period in time when the birds make their whereabouts known. We could distinguish this period as the calling period when both sexes utilize loud contact calls to stay in touch; announce territories and alarm. This is the period in time in which the birds make themselves visible and move across open spaces with all the boldness of a hummingbird or king cobra. The rest of the year the birds retire to the shadowy realms of the forests and take great effort to remain invisible at all costs. They will rise in flight silently and slip away on foot long before an intruder knws of their whereabouts. This is the period in which males have cast off their trains and the sexes are difficult to distinguish in the field. During this period of the year all green peafowl appear duller and darker than they might otherwise.
The differences that I have found compelling between the different geographic forms of green peafowl include the shape and length of the wings and retrices, the shape and length of the crest and the basic structure of the plumes that make up that crest. In some green peafowls, the base of the crest is obscured by dense filoplumes in the crown itself. If one is patient and examines carefully the crests of both sexes of a given form of green peafowl they will appreciate that some forms share with the Congo peafowl and Crested Argus the presence of Two distinct crests. Other forms a bit further up the evolutionary latter share with Pavo cristatus the hgihly refined crest - where each plume is bascially identical in size, length and structure.
Other differences between geographic forms will include the length and shape of the metatarsal spur or kicking thorn; the length, shape and colour of the bill, the colour of the irides, the length of the hind toe and most importantly the geographic range itself.

If you take the time and make a map using xerox copies of illustrated bird plates or photographs, find geographic ranges of the monophyletic peafowl family from Red Data Book . This will include the Crested Argus, Congo Peafowl, Pavo peafowls and the Great Argus. Now locate the geographic ranges of the Monophyletic Lophura pheasants. Because the Lophura are younger than the Peafowls you can include Crestless Firebacks, Bulwer's and Salvadoris though you may find it less complicated to leave them out for now. True members of the Lophura tribe are the Crested Firebacks, Siamese Crested Fireback, Black Silvers ( make certain you study the ranges of the southern black Silvers: annamensis; engelbachii, lewisi and beli), Eastern Kalij ( edward's and Swinhoe's), western Kalij ( typical kalij) and finally the northern white Silvers.

Colour code the ranges of each group and then do the same for the peafowl. I mean if you place the Lophura pheasant range maps down first and colour code them you will move faster than if you beginw ith peafowl as their ranges are only fragmentary at best at this point.
Please let me know what your findings are.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species hypothesis


Author:
Kermit
[Edit]

Date Posted: 06:31:36 03/03/07 Sat

Ill make a hypothetical statement that can be tested.

" Pavo spicifer shares its range with the lineated Kalij, whilst Pavo annamensis shares a common range with the Annamese silver. What ecological differences do the respective habitats/geographies exhibit?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 19:18:32 03/03/07 Sat

Pavonine is bad! Lots of the pictures don't even show up!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Kermit
[Edit]

Date Posted: 21:01:33 03/03/07 Sat

>"Pavonine is bad! Lots of the pictures don't even show
>up!
"
We realized it shortly after creating the site, hence the creation of Kickingthorn. NOT CERTAIN why the images dont appear. They are there but invisible. How is the map coming?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Green Peafowl Species


Author:
Mario
[Edit]

Date Posted: 21:22:11 03/04/07 Sun

>How
>is the map coming?
I don't have Xerox or anything like that, might have to ask for maps, betcha that certain Green Peafowl's ranges match closely with certain ranges of the Lophuras. Also, their habitats are the same for one species with another.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Looks like I better stick with plain ole india blues !


Author:
BrianTx
[Edit]

Date Posted: 20:57:41 03/05/07 Mon

these sound too exotic and too exspensive for pets !



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