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Date Posted: Wednesday, March 05, 02:09:16pm
Author: loyal
Subject: Re: Brandon Hall
In reply to: Peacock 's message, "Re: Brandon Hall" on Wednesday, March 05, 01:57:49pm

If true, then the verdict is in. Arranging for Leon, Lampley and Mumphord to come in last year obviously did not yield the desired result, nor is it likely to in the future, in Dunne's eyes. Who needs four 5'10" guards on their roster?
If we are indeed recruiting another 5'10' guard, it speaks volumes....especially when our roster screams for front line players to help Bacon.
Interesting....thanks for the article.

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Replies:

[> [> [> Size does matter, but so does talent -- Sludge, Wednesday, March 05, 03:00:36pm [1]

By the way, what are your thoughts on the 5'10" Jenkins.

A welcome back from us pedestrians.


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[> [> [> [> Talent is much more important than size -- Peacock, Wednesday, March 05, 03:47:12pm [1]

You can have a very good PG at 5'9" or 5'10" ala Walker and Frensley. If you have a big PG with minimal talent you don't come close. Hope that clears my point and all this garbage about the trap overlooks the fact that many small PGs do not have a problem with it.

Other than Jenkins is a starter on a national rated team, I know little else about him. On that alone I would prefer him to Hall and screw the size. In fact I don't shortchange Mumford as it has become obvious to me that the staff did not evaluate their PGs well and even had and extra personal year to evaluate one of them. Mumford could turn out to be more than adequate but everyone seems to write him off. Anyone checking his value during his HS Philly days would find out that he was the only PG that we actually recruited, having played that position throughout the year and was the prime target to stop by the opposition. Makes you wonder about the evaluations.

If you want real problems, Conley did a disappearing act in his playoff finals. They definitely need front court help and giving one to another PG, which I donít object too, leaves us with only one to give. Very dicey for another year and can understand why some partisans argue for an extension. Now as you are aware, there is a possibility of a defection or two. Considering the absolute manner of Dunne and the leakage from within, one appears very possible with the other the matter of conjecture due to circumstances.


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Talent is much more important than size -- loyal, Wednesday, March 05, 04:07:37pm [1]

If what you are inferring about defections is true, and Dunne is indeed going to recruit another guard....let's just say I would have preferred the jaw breaking had transpired in the opposite direction.

:-(


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[> [> [> [> [> No need for us to get into the talent vs. size debate -- Sludge, Wednesday, March 05, 04:39:38pm [1]

Suffice to say, we have a better chance to find someone with a little size rather than talent.

I know little about Jenkins other than most observers rated him no better than two star. He comes from a winning program but then, so do perhaps 2/3rds of our current squad. Don't even look at Hall as D-I material. I will be extremely surprised if Mumford can impact any. Still scratching my head as to why the staff offered.

Neither Shumate nor Conley, I believe, is ready for prime time. Of the two, I expect Conley to provide a bit more relative to our needs. We will be severely lacking up front next year. You are correct in that we will have three and likely four to give next year. This does not come from inside. Recruitment is not going well in terms of filling obvious front court needs. Maybe we catch the genie with one of the three/four. Still don't know why Gaston has disappeared; maybe grades.

Only bright side, maybe this will help bring expectations back to more realistic levels for next year, no matter how difficult for some to accept.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No need for us to get into the talent vs. size debate -- loyal, Wednesday, March 05, 05:35:51pm [1]

I doubt Dunne desires to highlight "getting alum expectations closer to reality" on his resume.

Can we all agree to aim a little f*****g higher, for Pete's sake????


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[> [> [> [> [> [> I think the comment I will make will shed some light on the state of our present staff/program -- Peacock, Wednesday, March 05, 05:52:05pm [1]

Bring back the glory days of Rodger Blind. His only fault was his inability to control his players and totally lost them in his last year. Had they not had the very visible rebellion he would have been there his last contract year.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Expecting more than 5 or 6 wins is very realistic -- Peacock, Wednesday, March 05, 06:17:02pm [1]

I think you need to explain why such abysmal performances are the norm. Poor seasons are usually measured in the 10 to 12 wins. Too many partisans defending what they see for reaqsons other than objectivity. Nothing you can say can justify the performances we have gotten.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You need to recognize the difference between commentary and fact -- Sludge, Wednesday, March 05, 06:30:27pm [1]

All that has been stated is an objective view on what has occurred.

I believe you have already provided difinitive commentary and explanation on the causes................an incompetent A D and the coaches he hires.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Expecting more than 5 or 6 wins is very realistic -- SPC Alum, Wednesday, March 05, 07:39:46pm [1]

Peacock you are so dead on. I agree with you that there are too many wingnuts here making excuses. There were no major injuries or any other issue other than the guys were just not that good and the did not get any better. Even I predicted double the wins from last year with Orta and Sowell as senior leaders. Bt it looked like to me that he gave a lot more of the reigns to his recruiting freshmen and it split the team in two. Now if they double their wind from this year (12) all the apologists will ak for another 3 year extension. Nick D and Peacock speak from the heart and with honesty. Others have rose colored glasses. Its okay to dream bu let's be realistic here. The proof is in the pudding.Don't put so much blame on Dollar Bill. He did what he felt he had to do. It turned out to be a mistake but it is SPC and you get what you pay for. "Mediocrity" at best!!!


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Can't agree on Dollar Bill -- Peacock, Wednesday, March 05, 11:26:16pm [1]

One EXCUSE the apologists make is the short recruiting time Dunne had on his hiring. Well Dollar Bill when told by Leckie he was retiring, asked him to reconsider and take another month. So because Dollar Bill wanted to have little to do in his originally proposed last year created the void that people credit as the reason Dunne could not recruit. Dollar Bill has a hard time deserving the phrase Mediority failing in most attempts to reach that level.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Can't agree on Dollar Bill -- SPC Alum, Wednesday, March 05, 11:47:21pm [1]

Okay you got me there but when is a long enough time to recruit your type of players? There is no school spirit no commitment to winning and yet we want more of the same. I propose that we clean house just as Nick D suggested one time earlier.This program needs an injection of new and inteligent people. A five year plan! Baseball is now passing basketball. When was the last time that happened? The AD will be the biggest hire in the history of SPC athletics. It will determine whether we stay @ Div I or drop to a lower lervel or drop sports altogether. I have seen the league getting weaker and weaker. The cdommisioner should help out in some way or another. He is to blame for the fallout in teh MAAC. I just dont see us getting to the MAAC chaqmpionship again for a long time. Losig these seniors will be hard to replace and unless the other teams continue to drop we will be in the PIG every March!!!


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Point of information -- Cindy Crawford, Thursday, March 06, 06:40:34am [1]

Sagarin has league ranked #17-pretty much middle of the pack,and improved over the last two seasons.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No need for us to get into the talent vs. size debate -- jajk, Wednesday, March 05, 08:59:41pm [1]

Being an optimist, still think it will be more than six wins this year. I also enjoyed this season despite the disappointing number of wins. I think we saw some good bb at times,definitely some signs of good things for the future. But I still think that better game planning and coaching should have resulted in at least ten wins at this point. I will never understand the starting line-up that was largely stuck with this year no matter what was happening. But this staff must be credited with the class that was brought in and I still believe is a very good one given the circumstances it was achieved in. They also must be credited with improvement that we have seen in some players despite not being in the w-l record. Akeem has still only played one and one-half year of Div one bb , and I am for one really positive about his reduction in TOs and better shooting form in the second half of the season. It was gratifying that the coaching staff started to allow,if not encourage Bacon to be more active going to the basket in the last few games. Some of the disappointment in the number of Ws was due to Hogga going down and to Raul being impacted by wearing the mask ( though it is hopeful in terms of the next game or four or five that his comfort on the court and in shooting form looked much better in the Siena game). Even some progress in Traore's play.

I also think that this stuff about the size of our pg is almost silly whether talking offense or defense. Of course the bigger the better given the same talent. But at the MAAC level ,a 5'10' or 5'8" point should be no problem if he is reasonably talented and a coaching staff has some clue about maximizing his strengths and minimizing his wesknesses. No matter how much I love Wesley Jenkins play ( and I would not trade him for any other player in the MAAC )it was at the two spot that other guards beat us at times. But Jenkins is getting better and better at that end -he held first team Hasbrouck well in check vs. the first game- and is potentially a very good defensive guard. It will help his defense once that in addition to all the effort he has to put forth on offense he does not have to help rescue our point in getting the ball past half-court.


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Talent is much more important than size -- oldtimer#1, Wednesday, March 05, 06:52:14pm [1]

Of course, talent is more important than size but if we are going to debate this let's not setup false premises. Of course, as Peacock states, IF you have a very good point guard at 5'10" or 5'11" inches that should suffice. However, size with talent is something that was conveniently not mentioned. Thus, a false choice situation i.e. talented smaller point guards vs lesser talented but taller point guards. Hope we are looking for talent with size and given what we have should be in no rush to do so.


Also the diatribe about smaller guards vs the trap completely misses a much more important problem with size -DEFENSE. Can't tell you how many times our opposition tried to post up Lampley or Leon this year or shot with ease over them. True we have smaller guards in the MAAC Conference but look at some of the OCC guards we were confronted with this year! Bottom line, if we are going to go for another smaller guard he'd better be awfully damm good.



Size does matter that's why the higher level conferences rarely recruit smaller guards. As usual,however, it's really a question of whose out there and available.



Unless it is a potential starter then I'd take a pass. Don't forget that a new point guard also needs to go through a major learning process. That's why it is often said that point guard is the most difficult position to recruit.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> With all due respect -- Peacock, Wednesday, March 05, 11:40:55pm [1]

the only SPC coach who has had a problem recruiting a Point Guard of even decent quality has been the present coach. There are more point guards out there that can do the job, and it is pure BS that the PG is the hardest to recruit. Seems you just don't pay attention to the level we play at, where guards are the most dominent and that is because there are more available guards, PG and SG than front court at all levels. Aside from the three BE teams our OOC was not high level and I doubt your implicatiuon that their guards were giants would hold up upon inspection. Try watching most of the other lower level conferances and you will see plenty of very good guards of all sizes.

And you seem to forget that most of the best SPC guards of the past had the same deficiency of being shot over due to size and it didn't give us the issues we have had this season. If our guards have this serious deficiency as you state than take to task the staff that recruited them for this position.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect -- oldtimer#1, Thursday, March 06, 09:02:58am [1]

Your analysis again seems to overlook the simple point that size with talent at point guard is preferable to lack of size. And yes, our smaller guards did have their problems this year as many who observed posted.




Just to set the record straight, the most serious deficiency of our guards (Leon/Lampley) this year was not their size but that they could not adequately play the point guard position. So I would not object to a smaller (5'10'' or so) point guard if he was outstanding but a taller one with equal talent is always desirable.





Of course, let's go blame the staff again as they obviously had pick of the litter last year, and according to some self appointed experts have no idea what they are doing. But while we are at it let's go back and read some of the glowing comments those same experts made regarding that recruiting class. Hindsight seems to be always 20/20. Recruiting by any coaching staff is never perfect but I find it hard to point fingers at last years crop. If only Jenkins and Bacon pan out, it was a successful class.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect -- NickD, Thursday, March 06, 04:52:29pm [1]

Too many mistakes in recruiting will eventually cost the coach his job..The posters have no choice but to hope the players pan out. But whether the players succeed or not cost us nothing. The coach needs to be right we do not and we are not part of the solution or the failure..The fact mant posters were wrong in there expectations has nothing to do with what transpires on the court. The coach is the only one responsible for the results not the fans.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect -- oldtimer#1, Thursday, March 06, 06:05:54pm [1]

Are we now saying that last years recruiting class was not successful? How stupid. I hope Dunne and the staff can build on it and fill some obvious holes. I'm also realistic enough to acknowledge that SPC rarely has the pick of the litter. If Dunne could only sign any player he wanted then we would all be happy. Try checking the Iona , Manhattan and Cansius Boards and you will find the same criticisms and WORSE than posted above. Even the so called "great" recruiter, Barry R, from Pittsburg, now at Manhattan is being blasted for his recent recruits. We recruited a first team All- MAAC Rookie and a player who most acknowledge will make an impact (Bacon), along with some decent role players who have the ability to contribute. I'd say a pretty good start.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect -- Cindy Crawford, Friday, March 07, 07:51:36am [1]

You're correct on this one oldtimer. What makes anyone believe that Dunne did not land the best players available.Most WERE more than satisfied with this recruiting class.
When was the last time SPC landed as many all-staters?
Although some may find an urban campus in proximity to NYC to their liking,it's difficult to compete with more beautiful suburban campuses,and their modern facilities.
Add the lack of fan support as opposed to the "only game in town" support of Siena or Marist ,and the job is understandably difficult.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect -- oldtimer#1, Friday, March 07, 10:19:50am [1]

Absolutely, Cindy. When Dunne was hired he was quoted that he would not be outworked. From reports from other posters who have seen him at high school games, camps and summer leagues that appears to be more than true.


Now while hard work doesn't always correlate with results I would have to think that this staff has a better chance than most to recruit players. Thus, I'm of the opinion that Dunne knows what holes he has to fill (look at the positions he's obviously targeting), I just hope he lands players who can make an impact at those positions.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect -- loyal, Friday, March 07, 03:53:47pm [1]

Agree....but......the hole Sowell will leave related to rebounding/inside defense has been apparent since the day Dunne got the job.
I trust you would agree one benchmark of his ability as a recruiter would be the ability to fill that hole in 2+ recruiting seasons?
So far, we have Conley only. Not nearly enough.
Absense of rebounding help will cripple next season before it starts.
I sure hope all that hard work starts to yield SOME results on the hardwood next season....and that won't happen without a top notch rebounder.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: With all due respect -- oldtimer#1, Friday, March 07, 06:23:31pm [1]

Loyal, Ryan Bacon, Conley, Shumate and to a lesser extent Costner (yes Costner is an inside player) and Hogga. That's what HARD work has brought in the last two years. Now others can bad mouth that all they want but as Cindy states they may have been the best available. Let me also add that IMO the Staff knows talent. Dunne and Morton have been in this game a long time. Let others disagree but that's my strong opinion. And they didn't get that way from reading newspapers or surfing websites but rather spend a lot of time watching players. Now if that doesn't please the naysayers, nothing will.


Loyal, I agree that we need a mobile (as opposed to Sowell) big man at the center position but I don't know who is available or, if available, can be recruited to SPC. To my mind Dunne has taken a good first step in Conley, if he works out. Although a power forward it does seem to ALREADY give us a decent inside presence when combined with Bacon. Plus you have your backups in Traore and Gooding/Costner/Hogga(?). Getting Conley is a good first step.


Now if we get that quality big man I would consider it a big bonus. If not, consider the role a stronger 6'8" Bacon could play. This guy has to be on the court somewhere! Perhaps we already have that quality big man and don't know it! Ryan definitely plays better with his back to the basket. His best position is underneath with his putbacks, dunks and shot blocking ability. He is really more of a center than forward. His downside, of course, is that he might be injury prone and needs to fill out (read, weight program). IMO Bacon will start at center unless we get that wonderful player. A lot,of course, depends on Conley and whether he can contribute immediately.


Bottom line is that I give the staff a lot of credit for going after and recruiting two power forwards this class. The job is not complete but we have taken some very good first steps in getting some additional rebounding power. One more will definitely help but I'm not going to judge Dunne by his success or failure to land that big one! Beat Manhattan!


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