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Date Posted: Saturday, March 08, 10:39:29am
Author: Peacock
Subject: Response
In reply to: oldtimer#1 's message, "Wish List" on Friday, March 07, 11:51:09pm

First the guy who thought Leckie recruited has no clue.

Everybody likes to go after the players, but one thing this game brought out is the lack of any sophistication in the offense. Manhattan's coach gets quite a lot of abuse, but when one compares the plays he ran it was like a college program against a high school program. Our offensive plan is simple and readily addressed by the opposition. Its not the players lack of execution as they don't even attempt execution anything beyond simple, suggesting limited plays from the bench. Even Jenkins showed that with his two of his disastrous attempts at threes. No plays for them just take them, or on occasion a kick out. Just a basic simple offense. Many had commented on the lack of flow through the first 1/2 of the season and then with little changing stopped complaining. Comments are made about a play working per the BU game as if that justifies the whole game plan. Many comments have been made about teaching, but anyone watching this team will only see first grade teaching. Some might call the players dumb, but their resumes suggest something different.

Anyone who thinks a PG would have really helped this team would need to understand that he would only help if an offense had more structure than what we have seen exhibited. If you believe the logic we can only win if we snare a Big East Quality PG, shows a biased view. And that is a crock, not that it wouldnít' help. But that is an excuse to explain away poor structure in the offense. I am sure some will object but anyone who has watched this team has seen little to make them feel they can beat anyone of merit. Most of the five wins teams of last season have all outperformed us and this with a decent recruiting class.

So for my wish, I hope Dunne understands that he has weaknesses, and he does have them. He needs an assistant both with experience and smarts to help him structure the offense. Manhattan brings in an assistant that was a head coach in Ganulin, and then gets Leckie as a part timer as Director of Basketball Operations. Leckie turned into a reasonable bench coach but never attempted to recruit. Perfect job for him. He also needs to listen to the assistants. I have no idea what he does now, but the quotes from others about Morton suggest little inputting from him. Morton is too young to be that, but might have the making of decent assistant. I personally believe he recruits pretty well but also is stubborn and resists change. One might question his evaluation of the guards as he did recruit the three 5'10 guards and did not attempt to retain the six footer very adequate one we had. Without a doubt we will be projected for the basement next year and only total lack of reason would argue that the current plan is working and needs continuation. We don't know if Dunne has the total tools to be an average coach, and maybe he needs two more years to show he belongs. More than that is fiscally irresponsible.

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Replies:

[> [> Re: Response -- loyal, Saturday, March 08, 11:22:24am [1]

I second the motion. (no pun intended)

I could somewhat justify dismal early season efforts vs. very moderate competition (LIU, FDU, etc.) because many frosh were playing and needed time to learn the D1 game and each other.

Looking back, our three best efforts this season all occurred before January 1st....Rutgers, Providence and Wagner......only the Niagara away game represented a quality effort vs. a good opponent since then.

I admit to not knowing much about the technical aspects of coaching.....certainly the entire staff has forgotten more than I know. I do, however, feel qualified to say I did not see an improvement in ball movement, assist to turnover ratio, help defense, etc. as the season wore on.

If we accept that as accurate, then it's either the players were not good enough to execute adequate instruction, or quality instruction was not there. In either case, the current staff is responsible.

Coach Dunne seems like a stand up guy. He represents SPC well, from everything I have heard and read on this board. I am sure he would be the first to say this season was a big disappointment.

In the event the instruction was good, and the players have potential to get better, then the maturation between freshman and sophomore seasons, often cited as the period of greatest improvement, will result in a big improvement next season on the hardwood.

I echo the above sentiments by Peacock....given the cupboard was bare and resources are scant, Dunne arguably could receive a ONE year extension to show what he can do. I wouldn't grant it, but I can see the rationale for doing so. Anything beyond a one year extension at this point is both unnecessary, and most important.....has NOT BEEN EARNED.

I suspect even Coach Dunne would readily acknowledge that.

Let's wish Todd, Raul and Tim all the best and hope the staff hits a few grand slams on the recruiting trail. It sure would be nice for all of us to realistically look forward to rooting for a fun (winning) basketball club sometime soon.


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[> [> Re: Response -- oldtimer#1, Saturday, March 08, 12:34:57pm [1]

Loyal, I'd rather respond to your more reasoned and rational comments than the above poster who is just a basher with almost no basketball IQ.


#1) We all agree that the season has been more than disappointing and that excuses or not, the head coach bears the responsibility. I'm sure John Dunne, as the stand up guy that you point out,is well aware of the reality of the college basketball world.


#2) No doubt that we could have/should have won more games than we did this year but one also needs to look at the product we put on the floor. You had Jenkins and Sowell and once in awhile Leon and Gooding. Hogga was lost, Bacon missed more than a handful of games, and Orta???. If I told you that Raul would average less than six points per game for the second half of the season what would your expectations have been? Evaluate the Coach as you will but also be realistic about the product we had on the floor for the last half of the season. Not trying to make excuses for John but let's be a little bit balanced.



#3) I would also be careful in reading some ill informed comments such as Morton has little input and that we let Kevin Spann go. Wasn't it posted here last year by an ex-assistant or someone close to the Program that the Staff was hoping that Kevin would stay? Also who are those unnamed sources who made comments about Morton's input. Not true!


#4) As you stated elsewhere, all twenty of us who follow the Program want it to succeed in the worst way. I also want John Dunne and the Staff to succeed because I believe they have the knowledge and ability to be very successful. Now it's frustration and,from some, bashing time. But let's not go overboard just yet. If the record continues as is we will lose a potentially very fine coach and as you say a good representative for SPC.





#5) Regarding the charge that Dunne runs a "first grade offense", this comes from a poster who didn't know halfway through the year the difference between a trap and a man press. The team has multiple sets and plays. Anyone with any basketball knowledge can spot that. I watched the game at 1:00 AM and saw many of those sets attempted. How do you think Sowell is getting the ball much more than earlier in the season? And did you hear the announcer clearly state on one of Jenkins 3's that if you have patience and wait for the play to develop you get open looks. Did you also see Dunne clearly chastize Lampley during a time out for hoisting up an ill advised jumper before even attempting to run a play. We can debate all day long the reasons for this disappointing season and the staff clearly shares the ultimate responsibility but the answers are not as simple as some suggest.




P.S. Always interesting to get some perspective from outsiders. Read some comments on the Siena board regarding our game plan and play on 3/2. Some thought that we were well prepared and coached.


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[> [> [> Another response from the house organ -- Peacock, Saturday, March 08, 01:05:17pm [1]

You have neither basketball IQ or background. Surprised you didn't watch the game. You may have had the TV on but you obviously are blind. Ever see multiple screens and picks. Hell you hard pressed to see one on SPC. I didn't say they didnít' have an offense I just said it is a simple unsophisticated offense. Very few adjustments or reaction. Dumping into Sowell is your idea of sophistication.

As far as Spann goes, not one attempt was made to retain him, but did attempt with Brock. You are an apologist who walks the practice floor and feels compelled to defend two years of rather poor basketball.


Hell you were one of the posters who did mention the lack of offensive flow and now it is a refined offense. You have zero believability and even less intelligence. The fact that you have quoted Morton before shows that you are as stupid as you post as no responsible poster would ever report what a coach says.

Probably the dumbest thing you have done is quote a Siena board on our quality after they handed us the defeat. Even your buddy would never use a Siena source to sip[port his conclusion.

Two year and 11 wins, almost 50 losses and you are impressed and think it is only the players. By the way that incudes the last half of the season where you got impressed. Basketball IQ, you should buy one.


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[> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- loyal, Saturday, March 08, 01:12:37pm [1]

Easy, guys.

There are precious few SPC hoop fans around. Let's be kind to each other.

Believe me, I know we are all frustrated, given a last place forecast for next season appears both certain and justified.....2 years into the reign of a new coach.


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- IWasThere, Saturday, March 08, 05:20:08pm [1]

From someone who was there: Coach Dunne did NOT give up on the team.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- oldtimer#1, Saturday, March 08, 05:34:23pm [1]

To, I Was There



Thank you for confirming what I observed on TV. See my post below.


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- oldtimer#1 (FYI), Saturday, March 08, 05:26:41pm [1]

Peacock,


#1) Kevin Spann - Peacock 3/8/"08 "... didn't attempt to retain the six foot very adequate one we had" 3/7/'08 "As far as Spann goes, not one attempt was made to retain him.." Peacock 4/16/'07 "He (Spann) asked and received his release. I don't think they wanted him to go. From others, heard he liked Dunne but did have some other issues which I will not touch on."



#2) On the height vs talent debate of the last few days, Peacock said in his own inimitatable way: 3/17/'07. "You (other posters) fail to understand that having most of your high level players under 6 feet is not an operating position." So why knock those who prefer some height at point guard now?


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Keep practicing spin control -- Peacock, Sunday, March 09, 11:31:30am [1]

1) Yes Spann did ask. But Dunne made zero attempt to retain him. He gave him his release right away instead of holding back on the release with an attempt to convince him otherwise. This was contrasted with attempts to talk Brock into staying. Now you point to the issue, yet prior in a post you said that they wished he would stay. Do you have any consistency. Issue, the one with Sowell, which Dunne did little to resolve. Mandated showers could have worked. Much like Leckie not taking control of Watkins and the other forward dumping on Nichols causing him to leave. Coaches act in a very biased manner. Did you not ask why a flagrant physical jolt to Hogga's head did not merit any discipline on the perpetrator. Spin control says Hogga acknowledges he verbally instigated it, but yet to have an event where nothing is done to the perpetrator shows very biased actions. Wonder if he used a gun rather than his fist/elbow what action would have been taken. Now we have suggestions that Hogga might decide to leave. Wonder who is spreading those rumors.

2) A perfect example of your inability to both read or actually understand. I always prefer a royal flush to a straight, but since the discussion was about our present guards which you have railed continually on about size, I stayed within that vogue accusing you of just wishing we had Big East guards to make us better. If you didnít understand, my comment on the royal flush, I hope you do now as we all wih for Magc Johnson. What you fail to understand, the problem is with the players themselves and not their size. Both Leon and Lampley would have the same problems if they were 6'2". Leon is too slow and Lampley too self interested. Following your logic, the main issue was size. And you continuing to forget that Dunne recruited the three under 6 footers for his PG position. Why were you not bothering to tell him he didn't know what he was doing back then. Hell look at the two others that turned down offers. Accoui and Griffen, both under six feet. It would appear your idol of a coach has only targeted those under six feet for that position. I guess he didn't share your opinion back then.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Keep practicing spin control -- oldtimer#1, Sunday, March 09, 02:05:29pm [1]

And how would you know anything about any of the above? You post as if you were privy to all the those intimate conversations. We know you weren't since you're a persona non grata. Also, how would you or anyone for that matter know what transpired between Dunne and Spann? Do you also know any facts about the Hogga incident or just what you read on this Board. Your prior comments about Lampley being disciplined by Dunne also show your ignorance and guesswork as to the facts of the situation. You initially jumped on Dunne implying that he was using too much discipline, until it was pointed out that if indeed the original violation was that of multiple study halls then it was a athletic department mandated violation of which Dunne had little control. Stop spinning things as if you know what's going on. You are the one who has no clue.



Turning to your player assessments they are some of the worst that I have ever encountered. Perhaps that's because you do too much reading and surfing and too little observation. Initially last year you trumpeted Lampley as an outstanding shooter, in the class of Jenkins and Orta (do you want the date and quote?).But how many times did you see him play back then? Scorer yes, outstanding shooter no. There is a difference!


Next we had a debate about Costner's shooting ability. Based on one posters comment that he hit a three in a high school game you proclaimed that he was an outside shooter much better than Gooding. Not even in the same class were your words (again do you want the dates of those comments?) Well Gooding is shooting over .403 this year and while Costner is somewhere near .285. This is not to knock Costner who I understand is working hard on that aspect of his game. Good kid.



Now we have your pontifications on Leon. I have news for you, if Leon were 6'2" we'd have a really, really good player. Nick shoots it almost as well as Jenkins, has a quick release and by far is our best driver to the basket. Leon is not slow. Lampley is super quick but Leon has had no trouble running the floor and has indeed gotten a step on every guard who has defended against him making some of the best driving layups on the team this year. By far our best free throw shooter and knows how to get to the line. Has turnover problems (Lampley is worse here) and needs , like Jenkins, to improve defensively. At 6'2" Leon would be exactly the type of player we need. While this will never be, your observations are again ridiculous.



As far as recruiting goes no coach makes perfect decisions. As Cindy pointed out it's often the case of what is available. After watching Holland play one would wonder why we didn't get him. He is an outstanding player. The answer is simple, he choose to go somewhere else. Couldn't really blame his decision. To use one of your favorite line BE REALISTIC.



This is not to say that we should settle. While I never commented on the Lampley signing, except for what I see now, in no way would I have been against that signing. An All-State player with a reputation for being a scorer, would you not have offered him? I would have and while the jury is still out, it does not look like a wise choice. As for Mumford, don't you remember backing the strategy of signing him since there were doubts if Lampley would ever accept. As stated hindsight is 20/20 but you talk as if you know something about which you speak. Your track record isn't very good.



Don't mind differences of opinion but to get that condescending attitude from someone like you often merits a response. With your track record I wouldn't be criticizing Dunne or anyone else. By the way, since you have all the answers why not submit you application for AD? Should be interesting reading your resume.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Keep practicing spin control -- SPC Alum, Sunday, March 09, 07:21:58pm [1]

Oldtimer,
I happened to speak with Kevin Spann and here is what he told me. He told me that at the end of the year when they had their individual meetings with the head coach, he was told that they were bringing in a bunch of guards that were going to play right away. He also felt insulted that Dunne told him that he had too many other things going on in his life that was non-basketbal. He resented that assessment because he felt that he came to SPC not just for basketball but for his career after hoops. On top of that Dunne forced or got rid of at least one of his close frends on the team which really hurt him badly.When Kevin told him he wanted to transfer Dunne did little to convince him to stay and it became a battle of egos. But for the most part it was good riddance.Surprisingly they were more concerned about retaining Brock rather than Spann. If this is true then that is a shame the way it was handed. Should Kevin have stayed and met the challenge of the new recruits? Maybe, but it wasn't only that. It was IMO, how he was treated and the losing on top of that didn't help. He would call his family constantkly crying abut what was going on within the team, Something I won't repeat because if that is true then we have other serious issues within the program.Like I said this is coming secomnd hand but believe me it was told to me from his point of view.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Keep practicing spin control -- oldtimer#1, Sunday, March 09, 11:01:58pm [1]

SPC Alum, I'd much rather talk basketball than hearsay. Forgive me if I am skeptical of any information you post, given your last commentary,since refuted,that Dunne quit on his team at halftime. Just one question though, in your last two sentences you say that there is somehing you won't repeat but nevertheless still post the inuendo. Why not say nothing at all rather than throw more hearsay out there? Certainly raises my eyebrows concerning your intentions.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Keep practicing spin control -- petersfan, Sunday, March 09, 11:49:15pm [1]

SPC Alum - all this hearsy simply "stinks"!


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Keep practicing spin control -- Sludge, Monday, March 10, 12:23:57am [1]

I think I smell a puddy cat :-)


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[> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- SPC Alum, Saturday, March 08, 04:00:43pm [1]

I have to agree with Peacock> Oldtimer you are an insider who is biased and needes to step back and look at what is happening. I am not an insider but someone told me last night that the head coach "quit" on his team at halftime. And now that I watch the game again I see the players also giving up with the exception of Sowell ad maybe Bacon. Peacock, I agree with you the offense is stale. Not scoring 60 points with a shot clock tells it all. We all hurt when SPC loses but what hurts even more is the ignorance that goes on.
Look at how many games that were scored with 60 points or less. We need to have a plan. Now it looks like we are pushed back even further. The Ad must see results and progress. 11 wins in 2 years is unacceptable. What style of play do we have. What type of teamn do we have. What is the scholarship s available for the next 2-3 years. I think there will be some defections by choice and some by no choice. Bg sping and summer recruiting coming up. But guys lets be careful how we rate these kids. It's better to underestimate them and have them overachieve then to hype them up and become disappointed.


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- Andy Furman, Saturday, March 08, 04:23:01pm [1]

Fellas (and Ladies) --

I feel for ya -- really I do...as a kid growing up in Brooklyn I'd take the Hudson Tubes to the Armory and watch Elnardo Webster and coach Don Kennedy -- and later coach Bernie O..always thought St.Peter's College was big-time -- and still think it can be...why?

a. games must be moved to Armory (and sold out via corporate support).

b. This creates the big-time flavor for community as well as potential recruits
c. community, campus community/students faculty and Jersey City/Bayonne etc. must be involved..how?
d. various family nights, special ticket packages, promotions, bring back alums, etc...

In short a major sales job must be put in place. I love the challenge. I did it at Oral Roberts University -- I did it with Lou Rossini at St. Francis (NY)..given the opportunity I can do it at SPC.

If schools like Siena, Niagara, Duquesne, Xavier (Oh) and even Gonzaga can create a buzz, and be successful (make the NCAA tournament) there is no excuse for SPC.


Andy Furman
a SPC believer
(candidate for AD position)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- loyal, Saturday, March 08, 04:29:10pm [1]

Avoiding the question about t-shirt focused halftime ceremonies, I see.

Hmmmm.....


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- House Organ, Saturday, March 08, 04:36:06pm [1]

Not avoiding a thing -- cheap T-shirts at halftime might be your standards -- not mine.

No, I wouldn't even shuffle to halfcourt to make a fool of myself and embarass those hard-woroking kids.

Gifts -- what about personalized luggage -- I'd donate it myself.

Andy Furman


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- loyal, Saturday, March 08, 04:44:12pm [1]

Great answer.

You've got my support.

Now, if I were you, prior to your interview, I'd bring a couple of cases of Jolt to distribute to the "Committee".


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- Andy Furman, Saturday, March 08, 05:00:48pm [1]

House Organ:

You're assuming I'm even granted an interview. From the outside looking in I'd say they're satisfied stuck in the mud.

I'm radical -- I want change -- I want to win -- I want SPC back in the spotlight. If Wagner can do it, why can't SPC?

They beat Rutgers and lose to Manhattan -- what's up with that?

Andy Furman


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Another response from the house organ -- oldtimer#1, Saturday, March 08, 04:34:46pm [1]

SPC Alum, not suprised that you side with Peacock given your past posts. Don't object to your point of view but I do object to these "unnamed" sources. Reputations are important and if John Dunne is anything he's not a quitter. Everytime the camera showed the SPC bench Dunne was on his feet coaching hard. Did you watch? During the time outs in the second half and as the Peacocks mounted a minor comback the camera several times focused on the huddle and you could see an animated Dunne trying to motivate his players and team. Again your entitled to your opinion but throwing out that crap is uncalled for.


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