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Date Posted: Wednesday, July 16, 10:28:39am
Author: The Captain
Subject: Re: Its Binghamton
In reply to: Peacock 's message, "Its Binghamton" on Wednesday, July 16, 12:05:31am



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[> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- loyal, Wednesday, July 16, 12:26:36pm [1]

I want to "keep the faith", but the preceding photo may not be far off in terms of accuracy.

Even in the best case, if Bacon is MUCH better (and he will have to be), we have no inside player to defend, rebound or score, a "3" that cannot handle or shoot a ten footer and a starting PG that was recruited over after his freshman season.

Very few frosh make a major impact, so Reid, Shumate, our new PG (we out maneuvered Felician!) etc. will almost certainly take time to develop.

Anyone still happy Stein granted the two year extension on his way out the door?

Losing Sutton was a huge setback; no other way to spin it. We will get killed on the glass this year, have no strong inside defender when our guards get beat off the dribble, and can forecast no source of scoring up, whatsoever, upfront.

I am afraid we are thisclose to labeling Dunne's tenure a big disappointment......success/failure at this level often hinges on one or two recruiting initiatives (see Kevin Bannon + Jason Williams).....bad luck, corrupt system....who knows? Bottom line results? Very, very poor so far.

What situation would you rather be in right now....the new AD placing a call to Bannon to guage his interest next season?....or....looking forward to three more years of what we've seen so far?

I know my answer.


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[> [> [> Not a fair comment -- Peacock, Wednesday, July 16, 12:56:28pm [1]

Seems you forgot about Hill also. I do believe, Dunne's record works against him in the recruiting circles, but that is still the past. One thing is accurate, what you see in players is what we will have basically for the next two seasons. He has the three years and we should give him the opportunity to see what he can do with it. Sutton was a need but was still a raw talent that did not necessarily translate into success. Had Conley qualified, Sutton would not even have been in the picture. Like it or not, most thought last years class was great. So, if it was, the ship picture is wrong.

The problem is people buying into the stereotype, which does appear to be your passion. If they are bad, lets wait until they demonstrate it. It foolish to act like the majority of MAAC posters who comment on things that they have little to no clue about.


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[> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- Sludge, Wednesday, July 16, 03:43:30pm [1]

Loyal - I know much comes from frustration but, if one wants to be critical of John, please apply to what he does on the court, not for standing tall through this sham of what some may naively view as an open and equitable recruitment process.

As is commonly the case, the kid is the one who eventually suffers here.


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[> [> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- loyal, Wednesday, July 16, 04:15:01pm [1]

Fair point. Let's see what happens on the court this season.

Please do consider this: "standing tall" through this messy process does not excuse nor offset JD having two years to line up ANY replacement for Sowell, then coming up with nada....effectively, in all likelihood, crippling this season's prospects, because we can't defend inside or rebound.

Now, as to what will happen on the court: I saw many games in person last season. Our point differential without Sowell on the floor was very, very unfavorable....and we gave up so many second chance points during those minutes.....a point made numerous times by Rob Kennedy on the MAAC network.


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[> [> [> [> [> I honestly doubt you have -- Peacock, Wednesday, July 16, 06:12:52pm [1]

any records of the point differential with or without Sowell. Just a very after the fact biased feeling. The only game I recall was a Rider game where we played better without him than with him. Sowell was a drag fro this team, and few like to acknowledge it. As far as Kennedy goes, did he ever comment on the lightening slow moves of Sowell that allowed everyone in the arena to focus on him. He was just touting a script. The bottom line was that the team was bad last year and Sowell was every part a contributor to the poor performance and I personally don't think his leaving hurts us anywhere near the level you seem to think.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I honestly doubt you have -- loyal, Wednesday, July 16, 06:43:48pm [1]

Look, we both want the Peacocks to succeed.

Let's agree to disagree about how important Todd's rebounding, inside presence and scoring was to the team.

Did he have some flaws? Of course. He was, however, our only inside rebounder or scorer of ANY significance.....and has not been replaced.

Hey, I hope your perspective is the correct one....but I just don't see it....instead, I see even MAAC teams playing volleyball underneath our defensive boards this year....when they don't drive the paint and score at will with their first shot.

Unless you see a candidate on the roster to fill that role?

Hint: Rhetorical question. :>)


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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- oldtimer#1, Wednesday, July 16, 06:52:52pm [1]

Loyal, you're a great SPC fan. But your criticism on recruiting is way off the mark.Way back you originally criticized JD for not targeting any big men to replace Sowell. Have you any idea how many big men have been on official visits over even the last six months?

Any college fan knows that the "big man" is the rarest commodity in college hoops. Even more of a rarity for for mid majors. Name me five outstanding big men in the MAAC Conference for the coming year. How about three? They don't grow on trees. Sure we can recruit a tall center, we've had plenty of them over the past several years but can they play?


Hill is 6'8". He was recruited from half way across the country. Conley is from Virginia. We are recruiting in places we never have before. Shumate and Hill may turn out to be stiffs but they are potentially better than we've recruited before. Conley, by reports, is a stud and wants to come here. And as Peacock pointed out what about Bacon? Another good get last year.


Sutton was no doubt a disappointment but
I don't want to recruit another stiff just to say that we have a big man. As has been posted Conley has the potential to be the real deal. Staff had done all they could. Identified a player who can have an impact, recruited that player and have the player sign a NLI. The rest is out of their hands. As Peacock implies these last one or two scholarships will be it for two years ( barring a defection - remember Hogga). I hope they offer wisely. We need twenty five minute a game recruits not bench warmers.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- loyal, Wednesday, July 16, 07:55:01pm [1]

I express significant disappointment with our recruiting for two obvious reasons:
First, three years into a new coach's tenure, our starting front line consists of Bacon, Gooding, and a lightly recruited freshman (pick Hill, Shumate or Reid). Not a shooter or inside scorer or inside defensive presence among the bunch.
No-brainer prediction: we are going to suck some major hind tit up front this year and our defensive boards will be put-back city. What happens when Bacon, if he improves dramatically, gets in foul trouble?
Second issue: we had to recruit a point guard over Leon, Lampley and Mumphord. If the Union County kid is needed, what does that say about the value of the three ships we used last year on guards under 5'9"...all scheduled to be on the roster for three more seasons??
Anderson's corrupt nature, Conley's grades, the wrong lunar cycle....who knows, but we are who we are, to quote a famous local coach. Results, not the number of visits, count.
I love watching the Peacocks play. Traveling to road games used to be fun. The past two seasons have been terrible and I defy anyone to reasonably suggest the next one is going to be any different.
If this gets any worse, I am going to have to start reading books to pass the time. :>)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- oldtimer#1, Wednesday, July 16, 09:31:35pm [1]

Sounds like every player of worth should just be dying to play at SPC and that JD and staff just can't sign all those five star players who are knocking down the athletic departments door. Come on Loyal, as a longtime fan you know better than that. As you say we all want the same thing but as Peacock stated he couldn't remember anyone unhappy with last years class at the time, youself included. Hindsight is always 20/20.


So I ask you who would you not have offered this year? Hall, Reid, Hill, Conley or several of those that you aren't even aware of? Don't you think JD knows what he needs? It's a very long way from targeting a player to signing that player as we just found out. Ask Barry R at Manhattan, the so-called recruiting genius from Pittsburg. One day a genius now an apparent flop... and he should have a much easier job at Manhattan than JD at SPC. Complain as you will about on court coaching performance but I'd rather have Dunne, Morton et al recruiting for me than almost any reasonble person you can name.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- loyal, Wednesday, July 16, 11:48:44pm [1]

Patsos, Willard, Michalic, McCaffery come immediately to mind re: who I would prefer recruiting for SPC. Look at Niagara's location and what Joe has been able to accomplish!
Anyway, this is all just frustration we all feel, to varying degrees.
In Dunne's first year, he had no chance, so that was a pass, I agree. Last year, we should have been somewhat better and won more games, IMO. However, let's give another pass as Orta and Bacon were banged up, Leon slugged Hogga, Lampley was a disappointment, etc....so I am OK with another pass. This year....Conley didn't qualify, Anderson is a crook, etc.....
Had a conversation with an ex-Syracuse assistant at the MAAC Tournament this past year. He told me a new coach with upside ALWAYS makes some strides by his third year.
I hope those strides are apparent with us this season, but I just don't see how that will be the case. Hope I'm wrong.
Until we set the bar higher, we'll wallow in mediocrity. Results, not excuses, or a good effort, or good practices, or dignity in the recruiting procdess, should be the benchmark. Period.
At what point do you suggest we hold this coach accountable? Next year? Year 4? Year 5?
We all want the same thing, but we do have different opinions on what the past 25 months portend for JD's success at SPC.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- oldtimer#1, Thursday, July 17, 01:14:02am [1]

Loyal, don't try to create a strawman to attack. Always posted that JD should and will be accountable for his record. Never issued one excuse for last year although you compiled a pretty good list for those so inclined above.


The issue was recruiting and you seem to think that recruiting here is a piece of cake. My only point was that this regime has done pretty well in that area. No coach hits a home run with every player he recruits. If you only counted Jenkins and Bacon, last year was a decent class. You refer to Lampley. You know that I wasn't a big fan from the first time saw him play. However, could you imagine the furor (yourself included) if he wanted to come and we didn't offer. BTW while I'm not a big fan I do think Darrell can contribute and will do so this year. Bacon was a good get and Jenkins was a home run. Where were your complaints back then?



This years class IMO is more of a question mark even if Conley is admitted as a nonqualifer. Finally, please don't take snide shots at practices, effort or dignity in the recruiting process. It's not worthy of many of your good posts. The poster who made that dignity comment was not attempting to make an excuse. You need to understand the difference between an attempt at an excuse and an explanation of events as they occurred.


As Peacock said the clock is ticking and without either/or Sutton or Conley the outlook does not look good. Since the APR issue won't be know for a while the only question remaining is Conley's admittance as a nonqualifer and if we have another ship to give this year or not.


For Peacock. I know you feel that there is only one ship but that assumes that what we know about Orta will result in the loss of one ship. Question is do we go with that assumption or do we assume that there are two available (one for Conley) and proceed accordingly.
I don't know the answer to that but it will be interesting to see how JD proceeds.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- Peacock, Thursday, July 17, 11:53:28am [1]

What will happens has not exactly been determined. At this point you only have probabilities and they don't look good. Loyal is just going off and taking shots at anything he came come up with. We have one to give for third year and with Traore leaving should have one next year. Not reasonable or ethical to project a defection. We are in a position to have a ship taken next year per current events. There may well be other opportunities, such as wavier or put off to Goodings which come up the following season. I even doubt the staff knows exactly what will happen, but you can bet they understand the probabilities. Their decisions will be made on these probabilities. Remember a ship is not lost until the NCAA says it is. Since Orta left to play Pro ball in Ponce, we might slide as one consideration being considered by the NCAA is the kids leaving to play pro ball and they canít just restrict it to the NBA

As you well know, I didn't have fond feelings for the performance of John and his staff the last two years. Even Loyal just can't remember that Dunne did not have the garbage people say his first year, but for whatever reason it stunk as much. The second year stunk even worse as the promise was there. The absolute inability to understand the concept ( their choices established this) of a point guard far outshawdows Loyal's comments on size. A stated reluctance to consider JCs as that is not a way to build a team. Now he has recently, but a little too late. That is now in the past and we have a three year span to deal with and I am willing to give it the chance.


John has been very relentless in recruiting and works three times as hard as the previous staff in this area. The issues here are not a subject of criticism. Even the results seem decent despite the current BS. So lets see what the play and execution will be this year. If we have another season of wondering where the offensive flow is then it becomes obvious. Defense was a problem, but not just down low, all over. Whether you agree or not, defense can be taught and in the end John will be judged more on handling of the team play, offense and defense, than on his recruiting.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Its Binghamton -- oldtimer#1, Thursday, July 17, 01:04:39pm [1]

Hit the nail on the head with your comment about probabilities. Without talking or considering defections the issue as to how many scholarships are available is one of probabilities. I agree with your assessment that while the Orta situation is potentially damaging one cannot assume that which we don't know is going to happen. Thus my best guess ( as yours ) is for the staff to ignore that situation unless and until it becomes a reality.Hence your comment on probabilities is on target. The real questions revolve around Conley's status and whether JD chooses or even finds another player this year.


Regarding Conley, as you know, the NCAA permits a college to admit a nonqualifer and even pay for tuition except that those funds cannot come from athletics. That why Sludge's heads up about Darius speaking with admissions is crucial. As you know SPC has recently upgraded it's admissions standards.Thus the real question becomes what was the purpose of the visit? Admission, financial or some combination thereof. It may distress some to know that Admissions is a seperate entity and not a pawn of athletics as may be the case in other institutions. Whether we like that or not that is reality at SPC. Again to some extent what will happen is out of JD's control. Hope we know Conley's status soon.



I agree with you that the issue is not identification of potential prospects and the recruitment thereof. Believe that JD, Morton and staff are excellent at that. Certainly, bad breaks and even regretfull decisions will happen but that is part of any Program. You may be surprised to hear that I also agree with your take on the issue of overall performance and evaluation of such. Certainly there can be excuses and/or reasonable explanations but the bottom line in anything is the record. Other factors will be considered when the contract expires and but the decision will ultimately be based on performance.


I also don't disagree with most of your take on last year. IMO there was offensive flow but not on a consistent basis. Similarly with defense. While it was probably some combination of rookie learning mistakes by frosh players and similar mistakes by staff, one can again not deny that the total package looked very poor in too many games. However, I like your conclusion to observe this years "flow", defense etc. rather than making over the top statements as some are prone to do. I support JD and staff and firmly believe that they are more than capable. They are doing many of the right things that few here know about such as intensive conditioning and strength training, extra shooting practices and drills etc. However the bottom line is all that well directed effort will be to no avail if performance doesn't follow.


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