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Date Posted: Wednesday, October 15, 05:33:46pm
Author: Peacock
Subject: Re: we supply the world
In reply to: figgyprez 's message, "we supply the world" on Wednesday, October 15, 04:28:42pm

You can lament Owes as that was Dunne being too stubborn. The apologists might tell you differently, but the kid was treated more harshly than deserved. McRae didn't cut it in class and was immature. Will be interesting to see how he makes it at Albany.

I know Spann was at a d2 school as well as Martin. Spann was another kid who left because of the differential treatments from Dunne. For those who object, try Sowell. Not sure on Brock or Gore. Like it or not, Dunne sorely missed both Owes and Spann.

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[> [> Re: we supply the world -- Gray Poll, Wednesday, October 15, 06:32:04pm [1]

Brock and Gore also went D2 as I recall....they're destinations are somewhere (way) below in the list.

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[> [> [> Re: we supply the world -- figgyprez, Thursday, October 16, 01:53:33pm [1]

My post was really more of an FYI, but the fact that 4 of the bodies JD was faced with when he entered couldn't find a spot to land in D 1 is instructive of how much building he faced. Lord knows there's lots of place to land in D 1 and these kids couldn't find one for whatever reason. And as I recall Owes wouldn't have been at SPC if Shane Nichols did not decide to transfer. These transfer destinations really should be another reminder of the patience that still needs to be exercised.

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[> [> [> [> Facts don't always reveal the the truth -- Peacock, Thursday, October 16, 02:17:10pm [1]

Spann and Martin were D1 players. In Spann's case he just wanted to stay in the area and basically Martin did the same. The fact that they went D2 does not validate your premise. You don't even know if they tired across the country. Brock and Gore were not D1 players, and if you want to follow up on Dunne's recruiting, we have had the apologists claim that we have problems getting D1 players because we are SPC.

While we wait and hope for a more promising season than the bulk of the universe projects for us, you have to remember the history to measure any future performance and I reject you premise that he had a lot of rebuilding to do. He just mishandled what he had and I for one hope he learns from the past.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Facts don't always reveal the the truth -- figgyprez, Thursday, October 16, 07:39:07pm [1]

I can't say that I know any of these players personally, as you must, based on your post, but last time I checked one could stay in D1 without leaving NJ or NYC area and still be in a lower D1 program. I liked Spann and Martin, but clearly no one else in local D1 thought enough of them to make room in their programs. Your war on the current staff may be clouding your vision. But I think we can simply agree to disagree on both what the present staff needed to do and the ability of what they hed coming in.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Funny your use of the word clouding -- Peacock, Thursday, October 16, 10:28:13pm [1]

when you admit you know nothing you have no knowledge of the players in question. Your clear vison leqaves much to be desired. As I said before your arguments have as much logic as those who believe Obama is a terrorist.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Where's your correctness? -- Sludge, Thursday, October 16, 10:39:42pm [1]

Not all Muslims are terrorists :-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Where's your correctness? -- figgyprez, Friday, October 17, 10:08:29am [1]

Try reading next time. I said I don't know these guys personally. You must, since you know the inner workings of their family decision making. I certainly saw their games and I can start to name the D1 places that could have made room for them locally if it would have been worth the program's time and resources., But since you seem to fashion yourself the grand master of all D1 knowledge I hope you know these programs. Fact (oops those little things you don't like) is we started 2 of these guys pretty regularly and no D1 program even the low majors in the metro area felt they could contribute enough to make room for them. End of case

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I did read -- Peacock, Friday, October 17, 02:07:42pm [1]

And I see you take off into a comment about my views which you have no clue about. Rather than be the puppet supporter or non-patriot the blind partisans would have you choose, I object to your use of the word clouded, and feel your use of an unsubstantiated comment "no D1 program even the low majors in the metro area felt they could contribute enough to make room for them. " has little merit and is nothing more than an attempt to make you feel smart. Since you have no idea if any were even contacted or what the situation was I concede to your divine knowledge of the reality here. I always feel people who have and admit zero knowledge on a situation are the core of the problems that faced SPC athletics in the past as they make their decisions and comments in a vacuum, which seems to characterize the sum total your position.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I did read -- figgyprez, Friday, October 17, 03:57:03pm [1]

You are what your record says you are. D2 is D2. While these facts might not fit your "correct" view of the world, they are the reality nonetheless. Get over your anger issues. What happens on a basketball court among adolescents neither elevates nor reduces your worth or any one's as a human being.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I did read -- loyal, Friday, October 17, 04:30:15pm [1]

Dunne's long term success or failure will be determined by what he does with the "groceries he bought" these past two years.
Let's wish Spann, Martin, Owes and Brock all the best and leave it at that.
Any practice reports would be appreciated.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Loyal -- oldtimer#1, Saturday, October 18, 12:06:30pm [1]

Loyal, some preliminary observations (only my own), hope it helps.

1) Schumate - wirey strong and looks closer to 6'7". Excellent fighter inside and has nose for ball. Has little outside shot and as with freshman will probably be a role player. Potential but needs to develop.

2) Hill - interesting player. Runs the floor amazingly well for a big man. Also handles the ball very well. Other positives is that he does have some inside moves and often dunks on put backs. A worker and hustler. Negatives are that he doesn't know positioning as well as Schumate and does not have much of an offensive game at this point. My guess is that he will get decent playing time in that he has significant upside.

4) Reid - another work in progress. Exceptionally physical and can do a lot of things well but at this point not great. Can handle, pass, shoot, defend and rebound. Just needs playing time.

5) Hall - another well built player. Haven't seen much of him. Pass first, shoot when open type who can be a steady player and helpful. Does a lot of little things well.

6) Bacon - better than ever. Looks dominating at times but that is against fellow teammates. Wonderful inside moves, put backs, dunks and shot rejections. Not much away from the basket. Can't do it all by himself but with help will eventually be an All-MAAC player.

7) Jenkins - just as good as ever

8) Leon - perhaps the best shooter and driver on the team. In pick-up games teammates regard him and Jenkins as the go to guys. Will probably play point which will test his decision making ability.

9) Lampley- actually looks much better and is more under control. Realizes that he will not be the man and is adjusting to the fact that he will be a spectacular player in spurts. Still needs to finish those drives but is shooting better.

10) Gooding - Assuming the role of co-leader. Does a lot of things that go unnotced but still can't shoot the ball. Will be big help on what I suspect will be more of a running and trapping team.

11) Costner - nice kid, solid but plays a quiet game. Will not hurt you but questionable how much he can help.

12) Traore - has gotten even stronger (remember he missed a lot of pre-season last year). Don't expect much but he is working exceptionally hard and may suprise all in that he is not terrible. How much he plays will depend on the developmernt of Hill and Schumate.

13) Others - Mumford can shoot the ball and can be used in spot situations. The other guys appear adaquate but bench players. Conley cannot practice but it's a shame he's not eligible this year. His presence would have been big.

Much to early to guess about starting lineups but I think it will be Leon, Jenkins and Gooding along with Bacon up front. It will be interesting to see who gets that #4 spot.My guess is that it will be rotational until someone emerges. It's very early to be definitive so evaluate my evaluations as you will. The fact that most of these guys have been playing togather for over a year should help.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Loyal -- loyal, Saturday, October 18, 04:53:04pm [1]

Nelson (PG we nabbed out from under Felician)....unintentionally omitted or (gulp!) classifed as a bench player?

Was hoping against hope he could relieve Leon...or at least eat some minutes without us having NO ballhandlers on the floor.

Seeing the projected starting five gives me pause...but I am hoping!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Loyal -- oldtimer#1, Saturday, October 18, 06:50:02pm [1]

Loyal, think you have the names confused. The freshman point guard is Brandon Hall. From what little I've seen he has a D1 body and attitude. Also has some size. Pretty good player who should get a decent amout of floor time. However, I think we'll run much more than last year since Sowell is gone. All are big men (if you can call them that) run the floor exceptionally well. Also think you'll see Leon and Lampley eventually on the floor together depending on matchups. We will be fast but can we get the rebound to start the break?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Hall -- loyal, Monday, October 20, 09:06:21am [1]


I get Hall confused with Nelson, the PG from Union County that Niagara recruited and signed last year.

Memory is the second thing to go. :>)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Loyal -- figgyprez, Tuesday, October 21, 12:36:24pm [1]

I was hoping for a bit more positive reports on Hill and Reid, but you're right in that it is early. Also I think we need to be a trapping/ running team. In the halfcourt we may not yet be strong enough to sustain down low and on offense players like Leon, Gooding Bacon and Lampley are probably better suited to going up and down. We probably need to make opponents uncomfortable with the pace of the game. Some nights you get killed, but we are not yet good enough to play it totally straight up, I don't think. I guess we'll see.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Loyal -- oldtimer#1, Tuesday, October 21, 10:01:33pm [1]

Good analysis. Everyone seems to run the floor well and from what little I've seen that is exactly what JD is working on. Even after made baskets we are trying to push the ball upcourt.

Don't know how Hill and Reid will perform until we see them against opponents. Reid is somewhat impressive and could definitely be a sleeper. Hall is also solid but will find it difficult initially to break into the lineup. Hill is the big question mark. Interesting to see if and how he develops. Hate to sound like a broken record but Conley (who cannot practice now) is definitely the real deal.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I did read -- Peacock, Friday, October 17, 06:23:44pm [1]

I only get angry at stupidty and you obviously embrace it. I have to assume your comment "You are what your record says you are." implies that Dunne is a poor coach.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I did read -- figgyprez, Saturday, October 18, 10:55:42am [1]

Loyal is reasonable in his view. But Peacock- you clearly thought that Dunne should be let go right after he was introduced. More sensible posters, like loyal recognize that at some point poor record=poor staff. But sensible posters also understand the size of the project undertaken and that program building rarely follows a straight line. We do agree that at some point the coaching staff will need to be judged based on performance. It seems that you needed some immediate gratification and refuse to recognize what the new staff faced. I am more in line with loyal that we now are entering the appropriate time for a judgment phase. Even if it doesn't work out I can't get angry or assault someone based on what teens running around in shorts do. As someone who actually played intercollegiate sports at SPC I always remember its still is just kids playing a game.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> When you make a statement like that -- Peacock, Tuesday, October 21, 02:37:33pm [1]

You show that you have zero knowledge on virtually any thing you print. Even my most vitrolic (Guess who) commentor would not make the statement." But Peacock- you clearly thought that Dunne should be let go right after he was introduced."

Now we all know the subject of this thread is the idioic opinion from people who post without a semblance of logic, background or intelligence, and not the kids who are playing. As my vitriolic commentator knows, I believe this is a great group of kids, something he is not exactly in tune with.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the mention -- Sludge, Tuesday, October 21, 04:06:48pm [1]

You never cease to disappoint with your personal invectives. I believe figgyprez is fast learning, one can not debate and accomplish anything in a discourse with you when only armed with the facts.

Perhaps we can learn more from your "behind the shower curtain reporting" (read: your retreat to an intimate, end all account of what occurred behind the scenes for which we are not privy).

Maybe, like your senior Senator, you can convince some that you were in front of the TV when FDR's gave his talk to the nation back in '29.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Talk about misdirection -- Peacock, Friday, October 24, 01:32:23pm [1]

Shows how well you come to the defense of statements that violate every piece of logic known to man. As you resort to your pseudo intellectualism and pass comments on issues you clearly have decided you can't conclude anything, you show the face of someone who fears commenting on issues by claiming facts when they suit you but reject them when they don't. One thing one can pin on you, is the ability to never have an opinion unless it involves voicing one on anotherís.

As far as inside, ask your non-commenting buddy who if I am not mistaken is the ultimate insider and feeds you daily with the inside info which as I recall you vehomently deny. Funny how you pretend but expose yourself more and more.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: When you make a statement like that -- figgyprez, Tuesday, October 21, 04:10:52pm [1]

Another ad hominem diatribe which proves and accomplishes zero. You're boring me now.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And you accomplished what? -- Peacock, Friday, October 24, 01:35:57pm [1]

Only to show that you are a boring person with little to zero about what you post.

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[> [> Re: we supply the world -- Sludge, Thursday, October 16, 10:34:23pm [1]

Find amusement in that one can now criticize JD for his stubborness when at the time being supportive of the Administration for not giving further indulgence to a kid who clearly dismissed all attempts at mediation. The last, an early summer meeting was scheduled for which Owes never appeared.

Figgyprez does ask a good question; wonder why all these undeveloped talents have not had interest/success elsewhere? Maybe they just need more time since the coaching will undoubtedly be improved.

Can't let all these examples get in the way of the truth.

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[> [> [> Re: we supply the world -- oldtimer#1, Friday, October 17, 06:32:59am [1]

On target. Owes more than shot himself in the foot. His problems had less to do with the staff and more to do with himself.Coaches do not just non-renew athletic scholarships. Non-renewal of athletic scholarships needs to be documented and for cause, not just a coaches whim. Following that, there is an administrative procedure which is outside the control of the athletic department. And for those who think they are smart enough to argue that coaches have their ways of circumventing this, not true.The truth is that most players create their own problems and a lot of it is not necessarily team related. Some examples would be overcutting classes and study hall violations. SPC has specific rules regarding these and unfortunately some athletes think that they are above following the rules.

With regard to the others no one knows what went on although some like to think that they do. At the time, what little knowledge we had suggested that several players were out of control and that there was a culture of lack of discipline. Almost every poster, at the time, lauded JD and staff for handling the situation. Whatever criticism is leveled at our staff for current performance should have nothing to do with the past. When this argument first came up some suggested that the test would be how many left this year. Only Hogga left and the reasons were quite clear. Players today usually transfer because they perceive it to be in their own best interest i.e. more playing time elsewhere, relationship with teammates or their happiness or unhappiness with the school. Too many of us rely on rumors which somehow become facts and then we are off to the races with our uninformed analysis and conclusions.

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[> [> [> [> Re: we supply the world -- Peacock, Friday, October 17, 02:37:17pm [1]

The Owes affair was not quite as straight forward as you state, but he was not part of the issue in question.

One of the biggest problems was the interactions of Sowell and Spann. They were very similar to why we lost Abdul Fox to Rhode Island. To dispute that would be spin. Very little was done to control that and was the main reason Spann ASKED to leave as he was not dismissed. Martin left because he also did not like they preferential approach that was shown as he was Spann's best friend. You do state reasons that can be accurate but fail to also acknowledge that institution control can also play a part.

Now where they wound up is not actually germane to the question, but only would we have been better had we had these players. If Dunne is as good as you believe, the answer would be yes. Now I have stated before that I am hoping that experience has taught where his weaknesses lie and he corrects them as I also believe he has the talent. But to paint his first two years as nothing more than poor talent is a little too partisan for me.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: we supply the world -- oldtimer#1, Friday, October 17, 09:57:27pm [1]

Peacock, not enough time to get into a back and forth especially over something which should be a dead issue.My comments were basically about Owes and not Spann or Martin. However, I do find some of your past quotes on Spann interesting:

April 6th 2007, Peacock " He (Spann) asked for and received his release. I don't think they wanted him to go. Must have a soft ego and feels put upon by all the accolides of the recruits...from others he liked Dunne...it had to be a number of factors and some may well have been the competition and some of his personal problems. "

Seems like you weren't blaming Dunne then but are now. The only possible explanation that can be offered is that JD didn't do enough to keep him. To that I posit, why would any coach keep an unhappy camper. Whether Spann was better or worse than the Leon\Lampley combination, to me, is a non-issue. The issue is whether the kid really wanted to play here.

Finally, I love your last quote " In cases like this you never know the real story, even from the horses mouth..." Wasn't that my point also?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: we supply the world -- Peacock, Tuesday, October 21, 02:35:56pm [1]

The problem is that you fail to even consider the issue of the coach here. Now you say a lot but ignored the Sowell Spann interaction. You were aware of it were you not. Most comes out after the fact. I don't even care who is to blame but you do have the habit of not being balanced in your views and comments. Is the issue of possible preferential treatment not an issue. For the stern disciplinarian one wonders why nothing was done about a punch in the jaw during a controlled session. The real problem is the attempt to make the job that Dunne encounter like climbing Mt Everest. And we are not talking about getting to the top but to just Camp 1.

So you constantly fail to grasp my issue which is nothing more than false representation ( facing a tremendous rebuilding job) of what has transpired and stop trying make excuses for some of the bad things that have happened. If Dunne has not learned from his past mistakes, the present team is doomed. And chief among that is your actual belief that Leon was and is the best Point Guard. He is strictly a 2 with poor instincts for the Point. As you are well aware I like the players here and have not varied from that position and want to see Dunne mature as a coach in a economically challenged school.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Only one mention worth point out -- Sludge, Tuesday, October 21, 04:16:50pm [1]

Your reference to Leon only reinforces how poor an observer you are.

Or maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are extremely high on Hall.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And you base your observations on what -- Peacock, Friday, October 24, 01:20:18pm [1]

The rather poor performace of last year.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: we supply the world -- oldtimer#1, Tuesday, October 21, 09:13:02pm [1]

No sense responding , the above posts speak for themselves.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> What else would expect from a -- Peacock, Friday, October 24, 01:24:00pm [1]

biased and partisan poster. One can count on one finger the times you have cited issues that merit comment. An when you do post you will distort and misrepresent everything to make whoever you are disagreeing with look wrong.

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[> [> [> I love distortion -- Peacock, Friday, October 17, 02:26:01pm [1]

You seem to forget that he was told in no way he would be allowed to play basketball. The kid was no angel and lied about missing some classes, but the issue you cite revolves more around his scholarship which he wound up recieving for the first semester, missed meeting or not. Dunne told him that in no way was he going to part of the team and the meetings you cite were for the scholarship money which he got despite your comments that implied that it was about being on the team. The issue was more decided when Leckie passed along his feelings about Owes to Dunne which were more founded on other issues than the ones that sparked the affair.

As far as other teams outside, you actually think everyone has this open door policy and readily will take in players leaving one of the most abysmal teams in the ar4ea. Like it or not, Dunne also contributed to poor evaluation of any of the players with what all have acknowledged was a poor display of any execution.

Rather than play the sideline needler, why don't you take an opinion on the merits of Spann and Martin. No one disputes Owes capability, but I would like to hear how you feel about their level versus the already criticized talent you have taken on. I know you have a hard time making an informed opinion, but rather than kissing Figgyprez butt, why not give that intellectual approach to the players in question when you chose to take others to task.

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