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Date Posted: Saturday, February 02, 11:02:20am
Author: loyal
Subject: Consensus

With the season winding down, it appears we "experts" have finally arrived at a consensus.

We need a "1", "3" and "5" next season....Sowell graduates, Gooding and Leon are, CONCLUSIVELY, not the answer as starters at the "3" and "1".

I would like to see Lampley force fed at the point and Costner force fed at the "3" for the balance of the season. If one of them shows some promise, Dunne will know where to focus his efforts with our last two scholarships. (I know this sounds like some jerk**f planning strategy on his laptop while in his PJ's, but I am desperate). :>(

Interesting comment by Rob Kennedy last night. Said Lampley had the relative quickness to take it all the way to the hole in HS, but this year gets his shot altered by quicker, bigger players. Said when DL learns to stop and take a short (5 ft) jumper off the dribble, his game will improve dramatically. I sure hope we throw DL into the deep water at the point, giving him 28 minutes a game, soon. If DL continues to play "like Bellinger", we'll know a point guard recruit is an absolute must this spring. What to do at the point represents a huge decision for Dunne. If JD is married to Leon over the next season and a third, I am afraid we'll have a new coach in the Fall of 2009.

Very disappointing. We'll have to remember Todd's effort against Rutgers this season and Raul's all around game vs. Manhattan in the MAAC semis, wish them well and hope against hope Dunne can find us a point guard, small forward and center for next season.

As one of my homeys mentioned below....that is a tall order and I am digging in for the long haul. :>(

I love SPC basketball and I sure wish we would get better.

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Replies:

[> Lampley Comment -- Peacock, Saturday, February 02, 03:14:46pm [1]

I think Lampley takes more abuse than justified. Yes he has his style but think about the scheme that he is in. It is now become apparent that even gurus, such as Sludge, acknowledge that no one seems to know their role. Lampley is no different, although his will to create far surpasses the others. Is it quite possible that he is just trying to do something that somehow does not come from the bench. Some may call it selfish, but one might also consider it trying to spark some lost fire in the squad. As much as most take issue with him, there is no player that escapes criticism. The team flow is horrible and obviously not because of Lampley. The fact that he tries to overcome that flow may well be the reason he takes this abuse.

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[> [> Do not reach too far -- Sludge, Saturday, February 02, 04:19:38pm [1]

Admittedly I have been down on Lampley, more for attitude.
However, minimizing his shortcomings by saying he has "the will to create", or is athletic, is simply a defensive overreach on your part. Darrell can not shoot, is not a D-1 scorer, and is consistently our of position on defense. Not knowing his role does not overshadow these obvious flaws.

Like most fans, we have overhyped the recruits. However, more substantive and to the point; what we lack most are basketball minds, both on and off the court.

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[> [> [> But therein lies the solution -- Peacock, Saturday, February 02, 04:30:06pm [1]

I'll let you search your own post for the answer while other keep worring about what players we are going after. You did accuse me of being premature back after the Fairfeld game, but I am sensing agreement creeping in.

By the way, I didn't minimize his shortcomings, but do feel in this mass of issues he became too easy a target. While defending individual issues, no one took the time to look at the total picture. It is only now that people are coming to grips with it, although not all considering the discussion on needs. Not one even ventures a comment on what is obvious in your last sentance.

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[> [> [> [> Re: But therein lies the solution -- Sludge, Saturday, February 02, 04:39:50pm [1]

With six freshmen, most expected to play prominant roles, you allow some slack. Lack of development 2/3rds into season is my rub. We likely are recruiting within our means and needs, question becomes who is on hand once they arrive.

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[> [> [> [> [> I think you missed a point -- Peacock, Saturday, February 02, 09:27:03pm [1]

As freshman, expectation is lessen and development sought. Thus I question your feelings about Lampley, unless your attitude comment comes from some who actually knows. So wins and losses are not that important. The flaws you cited basketball wise are typical of a freshman who is not a stud.

Your comment about both on and off the court leads to the following.

However, what we are seeing is also lack of anything from the staff in their development. If you believe otherwise, other than the trite good man or good practices, what have you seen that gives you hope that he can have a tremendous turnaround next season. One has to expect that in his second year, some decent aspects of running a team would show. I don't see, so I ask for your insight.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> How far do you wish me to bow? -- Sludge, Saturday, February 02, 09:57:05pm [1]

I've used the same measure and can ask similar questions. The answers are not so easy or perhaps not so pleasant.

Lampley seems to have become a separate issue for some. My views here are based on observation, nothing more. Some are less talented but will become bigger contributors.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually the funniest part of the player evaluations -- Peacock, Saturday, February 02, 10:06:49pm [1]

involve Costner and Gooding. Anyone familiar with Costner knows he has a shot and some range and is in no way in Goodings shot class. I am not saying one is better than the other, but reading the comments on the shot ability makes their analysis suspect.

I think the the "not so pleasant" applies.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually the funniest part of the player evaluations -- oldtimer#1, Saturday, February 02, 11:11:49pm [1]

Costner is shooting .273 overall, 1-9 from the three. Gooding is shooting .417 overall, 0-8 from the three. Whose analysis "is suspect"???

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Its called history -- Peacock, Sunday, February 03, 10:09:27am [1]

Gooding never had a shot in high school, while Costner was known for his outside shot. And we are talking about range as I do like Gooding. In his limited time playing now, one has to give Cotner some leeway for nervousness as he has only recently got any mreal minutes, but Gooding has had more than enough. As I have said before, most never take in the big picture and make decisons without substance. Considering the bad performance of all involved you still have some that you think have a shot, but become selective on individuals.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Its called history -- oldtimer#1, Sunday, February 03, 11:04:47am [1]

What history? One poster over a year ago posted on this board that Costner could hit the three. That is the only history I know about. As peter's fan stated neither has a decent or reliable outside shot but things could change. Additionally, while Gooding is weak from the three his pullup 12 footer is not the worst I've ever seen. A below average shooter but not horrible. Began the Iona game with just such a made shot. Can't shoot 40% and be that bad!







Watch both warmup. The jump shot is the obvious Achilles heal of both players. Hope they work to improve. Nothing is written in stone. Regarding the overall picture I agree. Gooding might be an example of that. Looked like a comer off last years performance. Put points on the board against any team he played. Others like Costner and I agree he has potential However, he is more of a #4, a put back type of player who needs that growth spurt. Gooding played more #3 last year but this year circumstances have relegated him to the #4 where he is much less effective. As you stated early on, the kid is a warrior. Also heard that he has a great work ethic. Hope he turns it around or Dunne finds ways to better utilize what he offers. My prejudice, I like the kid.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Its called history -- oldtimer#1, Sunday, February 03, 11:41:11am [1]

Just checked out Gooding's stats from last year. Averaged over 10 pts per game on .433 shooting, second best percentage on the team! IMO underlines two points:


#1) Smart player ( see his high school coaches comments on a nationally ranked Christ the King ) who realizes his limitations. That's a great shooting percentage for one not in possession of a great shot.



#2) As you point out weak long range but can hit the short jumper off his drive to the basket.




Agree that he looks lost and out of cinque this year but he has proven that he is quite capable at this level. Much better off at the #3 where he doesn't have the baseline to limit his moves or taller opponents that he needs to compete against. At #3 he is quick enough to beat opponents off the dribble, hit the short jumper and/or jump over his defensive player.




Realize that I like the kid so the evaluation has some subjectivity but as opposed to our newbies Akeem has proven both in high school and last year that he can play at this level.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Forget stats -- Peacock, Sunday, February 03, 03:14:31pm [1]

They are completely different types of players or did you miss that. Costner is not a slasher or a one and one player. He also has range and played the high post in HS. Gooding is the slasher and needs to create to score. The only comparison is that they are both aggressive under the baskets with Costner needing more setups to be offensively effective. Gooding on the other hand benefits from others having decent offensive skills which takes attention away from him when driving. Comparing the two is meaningless, but if you care to keep on that trend so be it. The type of offense that is structured dictates who gets the call, but I have yet to see anyone recognize the type of offense used or any that would benefit either kid. If you notice I don't take a shot at either player here just the inane attempt to classify them as similar players.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Forget stats -- oldtimer#1, Monday, February 04, 07:50:17am [1]

Wrong! When you try to analyze players look at their entire game! Both 6'5" long arms, great leapers, quick, active, with long wirery bodies. It's for that exact reason Dunne interchanges them at the point position when he goes to the 1-3-1 zone. Both also been used to stay back and help break the press. On offense, both have a quick first step and drive to the basket. Both are excellent rebounders and can be put back players. Both can run the floor and both are below average shooters. Sound similar to me!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: How far do you wish me to bow? -- Sludge, Saturday, February 02, 10:13:06pm [1]

Costner has a chance. Showing a growing confidence, not afraid to mix it up, and looked decent defensively. Not brother Brandon, but has the frame to fill out some.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I felt that from the beginning -- Peacock, Saturday, February 02, 10:15:38pm [1]

The scary part is that he wouldn't see much time if both Hogga and Bacon were not hurt.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Now, Now. You might be overreaching and trying to take advantage ;-) -- Sludge, Saturday, February 02, 10:45:50pm [1]


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> There are some who know how I felt about Costner -- Peacock, Sunday, February 03, 10:10:55am [1]

Not a stud but a player who has a lot to offer and not the also ran most seem to think.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No, you miss my meaning -- Sludge, Sunday, February 03, 11:15:46am [1]

For crediting selectively his development to injuries to Hogga, Bacon.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Who said it was development -- Peacock, Sunday, February 03, 03:05:45pm [1]

I guess you did, but I attribute his lack of opportunity to more a lack of recognition.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> A question for you -- Sludge, Sunday, February 03, 04:07:15pm [1]

Are you ever able to show balance; or do you interpret that as being indecisive, lacking conviction?

You would enjoy more credibility if you would first try to develop the argument rather than the agenda.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Are you not the master of the shifiting premise -- Peacock, Sunday, February 03, 05:30:35pm [1]

You never stay on target always shifting away. Don't take the the offensive just because you are offensive. I have been much more consistent than your positions which hide more than stand up.

We know you thought Costner was clueless as you psted same. Now your only position is that he developed, as that fits your need. Wh else would you ask the question you did.

By the way it looks like we finally won one.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Didn't mean to touch your delicate sensibilities -- Sludge, Sunday, February 03, 11:28:34pm [1]

But I have to agree. Your do remain remarkably consistent in your ability to assign responsibility for all negatives to one individual or body. In the case of Costner, rather than perhaps give even token credit to a staff member for some minor development, you simply attribute it to the circumstance caused by injuries to Hogga and Bacon.

You also attempt to misrepresent my remarks earlier on Jordan. I said at the start of the year that he had shown little development in the early practices. Recently, based on some limited play, I remarked that I had begun to see more agressiveness and confidence in his play. For this you immediately charge, in your customary sanctified tone, that I have changed my position to fit a need.

Yes, we finally have a win. Maybe we can go back a couple of years and attribute it to Leckie being on the sidelines :-)

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[> [> [> Re: Do not reach too far -- oldtimer#1, Saturday, February 02, 06:23:57pm [1]

Sludge, while agreeing with your analysis, let me give Lampley somewhat of a backhanded compliment. Originally, Darrell was often out of control. Taking 10-16 shots per game most of them ill advised and at the worst times.




As you say, Darrell is not a shooter. Amazing how we ( myself included ) are willing to point out that Akeem Gooding has little or no shot yet he shoots over 40% from the field while Darrell shoots closer to 30%. Did anybody say shot selection? If jajk is reading this I'm not trying to take a swipe at Darrell but if we are going to be realistic about the deficiencies of our other players let's be honest about everyone.



However, the ability to shoot is not the prime prequisite of a point guard. TO DARRELL"S CREDIT, he has cut down the number of shots taken per game. He appears to be trying. I respect that. Yet, the open question for those who want Darrell to play point is can he create for anyone other than himself? So far this season, for all his creativity, Darrell has a relatively insigificant amount of assists. In other words while Darrell has the ability to create does he have the mindset to create for others? That is the major question in my mind. Ability yes, results so far no. Several games ago I supported the idea of giving Darrell a full opportunity at point. I still do.



We now have 3/4 of a season completed. The stats are at least interesting. As of the Iona game: Leon 63 assists, 67 turnovers and 23 steals. Lampley 38 assists, 48 turnovers and 15 steals. Darrell , of course, has played less minutes slightly less minutes per game ( 27/23 ) and has missed two games. A Leon supporter would say, atleast he tries to create for others hence proportionally more assists than Darrell also resulting in more turnovers. Also for one who has been chastized for his defense why more steals than Darrell ? A Lampley supporter would contend that Darrell hasn't had a full chance. In that I concur.




The story of this season is not Leon vs Lampley. It is a sidebar As has been posted over a month ago there is plently of blame to go around, players and staff. However, as peter's fan pointed out below, an offense begins with your point guard. It will be interesting to see what develops with the players we have or who we attemt to recruit.

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[> Re: Consensus -- Fraedo, Saturday, February 02, 05:51:11pm [1]

Laury, Goodwin, and Grace.

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[> [> We only have two to give unless -- Peacock, Saturday, February 02, 09:51:45pm [1]

we have a second purge.

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