| Subject: Re: Before the 1066 and our Viking connection |
Author:
Grace S. Green
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Date Posted: Sun, Jul 15 2007, 13:24:00
>Hi, Jannock ---
>Thanks for a very interesting piece of information,
>and no, I had not heard nor read any of your
>information before. Albeit, I never thought that
>"Thor" was necessarily akin to the gods, but was
>perhaps somehow connected to something religious and
>most definitely to the Norse / Vikings. And now you
>tell me that "Thorkil" was not even a person, but a
>place --- WOW. That surely throws a kink into the
>process! And that Uctred was actually the one most
>directly connected to the 1066 thing...still another
>new wrinkle.
>
>You started by saying, "According to this passage" ---
>then you quote from something --- what is it you are
>quoting from?
>
>Are you an English Cleveland or an American Cleveland?
>
>I am anxious to read more about our Klievland ancestry
>in Norway --- that would add an even greater impact to
>1066.
>
>Thanks again for a great post!!
>
>Don
>
>>According to this passage:
>>"I read the conclusion about the Cleveland and
>>deCliveland name down through English history and
>>found it to not be totally correct. It is really such
>>a small thing, but let me explain what I mean. The
>>deCliveland and Thorkil are quite wrong. The Thor bit
>>does not come from the god Thor but from the Norse
>>word 'Thorp,' meaning farm or settlement--there are
>>many combinations of the 'Thorp' word in place names
>>over here from the days of the Norsemen and the
>>Scandinavian raids. They are numerous up along the
>>northeast, like 'Grimethorpe' in Yorkshire meaning
>>Grim's farm, 'Kettlethorpe' in Lincolnshire meaning
>>Kettel's settlement, etc. Cleveland probably means
>>Cleve's land, and 'Cleveland' used to be a district in
>>its own right before it was merged into the country of
>>Northumberland. The 'Thorkil' probably means something
>>like 'Kel's thorpe of or in Cliveland.' Your family
>>name could very likely be from even earlier than 1066
>>because the Viking raids were before and after the
>>Conquest. Andover, England, used to pay Danegeld
>>(Dane's gold) to a Viking king as 'protection money'
>>to save it from being overrun by the invaders."
>>
>>That said, there are folks in Norway named Kleivland
>>and also there seems to be a region, town, area or
>>locale etc. in Hordaland, Norway that is caries the
>>name Klieveland too. I feel, it is more than a
>>coincidence, but could be a path to earlier
>connections
>>
>>Kil’s or Kel’s farm of Kleivland. Thorkil de Cliveland
>>wasn’t a person, it was a place! Uctred could’ve been
>>the landholder of Kel’s farm in a later generation.
>>
>>The Viking’s were farmers as well as warriors and
>>tradesmen; many settled and stayed in North Umbria. It
>>seems highly plausible to me that our earliest
>>ancestors colonized a landing there, set up a farm and
>>food production, and became landholders, protectors,
>>or tribute takers in the area. Regional lords.
>>
>>I have only done a cursory search of Kleiveland, so
>>much more data/knowledge will be needed.
>>
>>Thought I would throw this out there, and see what
>>others think of it. Or is this old news?
Hello Don,
Here’s my two cents on Thorkil de Cleveland and his son Uctred. This theory came from the 1899 leveland/Cleaveland Genealogies compiled by the two Northern Cleveland cousins Edmond Janes Cleveland & Horace Gillette Cleveland. One of their sources was the Doomsday Book. It is in the Latin, and I will post a copy of the Cleveland info when I figure out how to edit what I have scanned. In the meantime here is a portion from the book I am writing about Jemima Cleveland. I have kept the spelling as it was written.
This story has it's beginnings over nine hundred years
ago, with a Saxon landowner, Thorkil de Clievlan and his son Ectred.
Thor was the ancient king or general of our Saxon ancestors while they lived in Sycthia or Tartary, and before they came into Germany, whom after death, they deified and worshipped so much that nearly forty towns in England bear his name as well as one day of our week, Thursday.
Thorkil and Ectred lived among the green cliffs near Whitby Abbey at Giseburne, which is now Guisborough, Cleveland, North Riding of Yorkshire, England.
The Battle of Hastings was fought October 14, 1066 and Harold II, the English king was killed. The battle ended the Saxon dynasty, and put William the Norman, who took the title of Conqueror, in possession of the throne of England.
After crowning himself king, William the Conqueror ordered all citizens to pay taxes. The landowner names along with the description of their property were recorded in what was known as the Doomsday Book.
Since families didn't have surnames in those days, they were either given a name or allowed to choose one that would identify them in the record books. Thorkil took his name from the beautiful countryside he loved so well, and became "de Clievelan", which means cliff dweller.
According to the Doomsday Book, "Uctred possessed three manors in Gisborough, Middleton and Hutton-Lowcross, to be taxed 25 carucates [carucate same as hide of land, measurement introduced by the Normans, 60 to 120 acres, 100 acres the average] and 14 ploughs. The whole, in King Edward the Confessor's time was valued at 40 sterling, but at the period of the survey (through the ravages of the Conqueror) the value is only 16 sterling. One manor consisted of 10 villanes [villani, or villeins, tenants of superior degree to servior serfs, and held some cottage and lands] with 4 ploughs. There is a priest and church there, and one mill of 4 shillings value. This manor was granted by William the Conqueror to Robert de Brus, Earl of Morton.
Uctred was the Saxon possessor of a manor in Tocketts, Ginsborough Parish to be taxed 2 carucates and I plough, one in Normanby, Ormesby Parish, also granted by the Conqueror, to the Earl of Morton, now in waste."
Many generations later in 1679 or earlier Roger Cleveland, whose early ancestor's bones had turned to dust in their tombs in Whilby Abbey, which was now it's self in ruins, and many others of his family whose blood soaked the fields of battle of his beloved homeland, decided to sail to the "New World", called America.
You can view some of the Doomsday Book at The Doomsday Book on Line, although this one doesn’t have our Clevelands, only the 200 or so persons that fought with the King. It does have a lot of info including the meaning of names and words in Roman, Celtic, Saxon and Viking.
Also there are two sites on Whitby Abby. It is supposedly being excavated, and they have discovered many graves. There are plans to do DNA testing.
whitby abbey
Whitby Abbey- A Virtual Tour
The Domesday Book Online - Bedfordshire A-H
Hope this helps.
Grace S. Green
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