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Date Posted:08:36:36 06/16/02 Sun Author: Jenna Author Host/IP: spider-wd054.proxy.aol.com / 205.188.193.174 Subject: Re: Cassandra Claire In reply to:
Rebecca
's message, "Re: Cassandra Claire" on 14:20:15 05/21/02 Tue
>>> It don't think their wild protests against
>>>fanfiction.net saying fan fiction is plagiarism
>caused
>>>them to be endeared to producers of Harry Potter.
>>>Here you have not only writers of homoerotic stories
>>>based on characters who are portrayed as young
>>>children in canon
>>
>>Here we go again...
>>
>>For the record, I discovered HP fandom well after this
>>whole mess. I've seen the allegations, and if they're
>>true, then I have another reason not to read CC's
>>stuff.
>
>*blinks*
>All right, shall post it here.
>Cassie quoted many things... Buffy, for example.. and
>she put that in the disclaimer. However, Xing or
>someone else found it amusing to kick Cassie off
>fanfiction.net. There's more to it, but I don't feel
>like wasting time/energy on you sad people. And
>anyway, a lot of fanfic authors in "our crowd" (i.e.
>AngieJ, AliciaSue, Heidi Tandy, Al, Lori, ect.) left
>FFN, and created a new fan fic archive. (Which was
>recently featured in the NYTimes, so don't dare feed
>me the "it's crap" line) And now, Cassie and the rest
>of the FA authors are happily archived on FA, and
>nothing else but their respective Yahoo! Groups.
>
>
>
>
>>However, I'm getting deeply tired of the "kiddy
>>porn" accusations. Yes, the characters *start out* as
>>children--but I haven't seen any slash featuring the
>>students set in the first or second years. The vast
>>majority of slash authors are blatant about "aging up"
>>the characters. Your argument that slash=child porn is
>>just as disingenous as the "fanfic is plagiarism"
>>argument.
>*agrees*
>It's old, people. And, honestly...have you noticed
>that they only say it's porn if it's a slash 'fic? I
>mean.. you can come across a 'fic with H/H, and no one
>flinched. But, when it's Harry/Draco, it's a
>different story entirely. I don't know if the whole
>lot of you are homophobes, or just plain stupid.
>Either way, it's old. And we have so much shit to
>back up that it's not porn. So... drop it. For your
>own sake.
Yes. Cassie is KNOWN for her stolen smart-ass quotes. It only shows her lack of originality.
>*blinks*
>All right, shall post it here.
>Cassie quoted many things...
Stolen. Quotes are acknowledged.
> Buffy, for example.. and
>she put that in the disclaimer.
Not good enough. Quotes are QUOTED that makes them quote. Saying inspired by insinutates orginality. She didn't say "Hi! I'm Cassandra Claire and check * to see where these quotes come from!" because to do so would really make her a theif and apparently so... well, not a thief but would make her uninspired lack of orginality more apparent.
> However, Xing or
>someone else found it amusing to kick Cassie off
>fanfiction.net.
Nope. Sorry to inform you, they didn't find it amusing and you're sadly in the dark there. Some one reported her to FanFiction.Net for severeal PASSAGES IN EXCESS OF TWO PAGES A PASSAGE that she stole. FanFiction.Net investigated and found the accusation credible. After long and detailed though, they black listed like they did other authors who had committed similar offenses.
> There's more to it, but I don't feel
>like wasting time/energy on you sad people.
No, seriously, tell me more as I'd be more than happy to know what Cassandra Claire's funny and amusing supporters have to say since I know a great deal more than you do. Enlighten me :o) I know FanFiction.Net's version, I know my own version (which includes having sent Cassandra a note before she was black listed making her aware of that accusation) and I saw Rhysenn's reaction, on list and off. I saw Cassandra Claire's action. I knew Pamela Dean's version darling. I'm clearly missing your own take on it. Enlighten me.
> And
>anyway, a lot of fanfic authors in "our crowd" (i.e.
>AngieJ, AliciaSue, Heidi Tandy, Al, Lori, ect.) left
>FFN, and created a new fan fic archive.
Because they feared black listing because they were guilty of similar offenses. They didn't leave out of altrusitc reasons but rather to cover their own plagiaristic asses... But hey, it's okay because Heidi's a lawyer and says plagiarism is okay... :-) (Oh wait, you know the full story. Inform me now.)
> (Which was
>recently featured in the NYTimes, so don't dare feed
>me the "it's crap" line)
Some of the most famous authors there are are no more than purveyors of kitsch. Fame doesn't mean it's good. Is Scooby Doo a good movie? It must be by your logic of press coverage since look how much coverage it got!
> And now, Cassie and the rest
>of the FA authors are happily archived on FA, and
>nothing else but their respective Yahoo! Groups.
Cult of personality... :) But that's okay... Better to keep the plagiarist in their own little corner of the universe... because their insidious influence might spread... :) (Chant the mantra! They are not powerful! they are not a clique! They don't black ball people! Toeing the party line is imperative! Chant the mantra!)
*grins and is amused*
As for the get over it thing, did you check the date of the post before you responded? It doesn't get much traffic and you replied to a post some 5 months old... So it seemed like the one who had problems getting over it with you. :o) I'm just replying because I remembered this bored existed and I needed a moment of amusement.
I've never taken part in any debates or arguments or taken side with anyone, I don't know Pamela Dean and I've never met any of CC's friends or enemies. I'm just a HP fan who was surfing one day and stumbled upon the Draco Trilogy. I read it. I enjoyed it. It got me through my exams.
Then I read it again, while I was reading Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
I probably would have caught on earlier if I had a television.
For the first time I scrolled ot the top of the page and found the pitiful disclaimers section, and I was shocked and furious. I'm certain this has all been said before, but as an English Major who spends two thirds of her life quoting and footnoting and crediting, I have to shake my head. It isn't hard or arduous to index your sources. It's a matter of course - you use material that isn't yours, you credit the original author. It's what both amatuers and professionals do, because it's the law and it follows basic human decency.
If you have the audacity to take credit and praise for ideas that aren't yours - and I was one of the ones who praised the Trilogy the loudest before I found it out - than you are a very lazy, greedy, thoughtless hack. I still think the story is great. Love the story. Still read it. And if I met any of the actual authors I'd shake their hand for a great ride. But if I met the person who stole it and slapped her name on it, I'd probably have to spit for the taste in my mouth. Kudos for peicing it together, because it's a very nearly seamless job. And congrats for seeing the quotes and the passages that would add to and craft an engaging story. That's talent - really, no sarcasm intended.
It's just too damn bad CC didn't have the decency to credit her sources. Too bad she was too lazy to write them all down. Too bad she was too greedy and kept the praise for herself. Too bad she chose to be a hack over an author. Because it's really the loss here, in my opinion, some one that could have been great and ended up resembling Wormtail more than Moony, Padfoot or Prongs.
>I've never taken part in any debates or arguments or
>taken side with anyone, I don't know Pamela Dean and
>I've never met any of CC's friends or enemies. I'm
>just a HP fan who was surfing one day and stumbled
>upon the Draco Trilogy. I read it. I enjoyed it. It
>got me through my exams.
I've met some of C's present friends offline, or "friends" as I call them now because online they laud and praise her stories whilist telling me in person that C's stories are shite. That's backstabbing for you. When I first read her stories, I thought they were very good until I asked someone to explain to me what was going on with her plagiarism and they brought out their Buffy script and showed me lines from one of the Draco stories and showed me a line that someone wrote in Buffy and I was insulted by the audacity that C used to write her stories. I just thought she wrote really, supremely fast (120 or so pages in a week for ONE chapter) while I could only hammer 20 or 30 pages a week for one chapter. I realised that I could write out a 100-page-plus chapter by copying out a book. I tested this theory by typing out one of the longer chapters in a Harry Potter book and it took me only a day or two to do it, so presumably C's method is having books by her side and continually typing out passages and changing some lines around in order to fit in the story she's "writing."
>Then I read it again, while I was reading Hitchhiker's
>Guide to the Galaxy.
>I probably would have caught on earlier if I had a
>television.
Have not read Douglas Adams nor have I watched Buffy (until someone told me to just to compare with her writings) until some people pointed out some lines from several books to compare to her writings. I was floored by the lack of originality she had, because I thought all along she was a clever writer. I had often thought that her job (an entertainment journalist) didn't really match her writing style and had a little suspicion that her writing wasn't hers. I had based it on the way she wrote in stories that I had worked with her on, it did not match the writing personality she had used in the draco series.
>For the first time I scrolled ot the top of the page
>and found the pitiful disclaimers section, and I was
>shocked and furious. I'm certain this has all been
>said before, but as an English Major who spends two
>thirds of her life quoting and footnoting and
>crediting, I have to shake my head. It isn't hard or
>arduous to index your sources. It's a matter of course
>- you use material that isn't yours, you credit the
>original author. It's what both amatuers and
>professionals do, because it's the law and it follows
>basic human decency.
One thing to say: Basically her disclaimers take up half of the page. 'Nuff said.
>If you have the audacity to take credit and praise for
>ideas that aren't yours - and I was one of the ones
>who praised the Trilogy the loudest before I found it
>out - than you are a very lazy, greedy, thoughtless
>hack. I still think the story is great. Love the
>story. Still read it. And if I met any of the actual
>authors I'd shake their hand for a great ride. But if
>I met the person who stole it and slapped her name on
>it, I'd probably have to spit for the taste in my
>mouth. Kudos for peicing it together, because it's a
>very nearly seamless job. And congrats for seeing the
>quotes and the passages that would add to and craft an
>engaging story. That's talent - really, no sarcasm
>intended.
People have tried to criticise her for doing the exact same thing on FictionAlley, and they were simply ignored or had people tell them not to criticise the work of a modern "artist". To put it this way, C doesn't like criticism or can't work well with criticism so she only "loves" the people who praise her. You could say her ego is getting a bit too big for her tiny head. One way C used her "fans" to her advantage was when I was kicked out from the club (I feel loads better now that I'm gone from there) for a hacking accusation based on an IM that was a product of one of their Administrators getting into my computer and taking my screenname and subsequently destroying my computer as a result (I lost it and I had to create a new screenname and buy a new computer as a result) and making up a conversation about hacking. C jumped on the accusation bandwagon and created Yahoo client conversations of me talking about the hacking, this time she didn't use any sources, just her original meanness.
>It's just too damn bad CC didn't have the decency to
>credit her sources. Too bad she was too lazy to write
>them all down. Too bad she was too greedy and kept the
>praise for herself. Too bad she chose to be a hack
>over an author. Because it's really the loss here, in
>my opinion, some one that could have been great and
>ended up resembling Wormtail more than Moony, Padfoot
>or Prongs.
Also it's too damn bad that she decided to do something highly illegal to me. She has that lawyer of hers so she should really know better. She used her fans to turn against me and basically I was shunned from the entire fandom and every now and then I would check out The Leaky Cauldron or harrypotterfans.net and find that one or more of her friends are working on those sites as well. So basically, I've lost all trust in internet friendships because of them. My advice in the world of HP fandom, don't ever join their clubs, it's like a cult. One wrong step and you're gone from there, even when you don't take that one step.
I think the younger people in the hp fandom are quite naive to the HP-for groan.. err.. grownups community and possibly idolise the elder people because they can meet up and chat "intelligently" * about HP. (* Continuous topics like Draco in leather pants, that just basically gets old)
Anyway, I'm finished with my rant for now. I hope this message gets spread to warn people of C and her "company". They're willing to bend the law (H.T. finds loopholes for them) to get people in deep trouble for something they didn't do. The only thing they didn't find loopholes for was harassing me with asinine letters and AIMs, fortunately I've saved those and used them as proof against their accusations plus a chatscript I had saved and witnesses in the chat as well. They're willing to push the legal boundaries even if you continually criticise them for their actions/writings (C's even called people at home to tell them to stop criticising, by using their IP address and finding what phone number they use). Basically, C is stalking people and her friends approve of her ways.
>Also it's too damn bad that she decided to do
>something highly illegal to me. She has that lawyer of
>hers so she should really know better. She used her
>fans to turn against me and basically I was shunned
>from the entire fandom and every now and then I would
>check out The Leaky Cauldron or harrypotterfans.net
>and find that one or more of her friends are working
>on those sites as well. So basically, I've lost all
>trust in internet friendships because of them. My
>advice in the world of HP fandom, don't ever join
>their clubs, it's like a cult. One wrong step and
>you're gone from there, even when you don't take that
>one step.
>
Shit... I was equally tossed out... but I caused trouble on the way out. I e-mailed the firm Heidi was at and ASKED if what she said was legally sound... (They remember that too. Shortly after it, Heidi moved to NY I think...)
Try http://www.fandomination.net/ No HP people there from that group and big thing against plagiarism.
>Shit... I was equally tossed out... but I caused
>trouble on the way out. I e-mailed the firm Heidi was
>at and ASKED if what she said was legally sound...
>(They remember that too. Shortly after it, Heidi
>moved to NY I think...)
Should have done that when I got the complaint against my University and asked them if this was actually legal (it wasn't) and did they know that she was giving free services to people like C. But I didn't want to get involved and I just wanted to get my finals over with. They filed the complaint precisely just to get me nervous (they knew this characteristic of mine and used it to their advantage).
>Try http://www.fandomination.net/ No HP people there
>from that group and big thing against plagiarism.
That's a good thing, and besides Fiction Alley is a bit too much for me (I haven't been there in ages but it's all artsy vartsy). I like simple pages and fandomination.net seems to be simplicity.
They've also gotten warnings from the people who did Lord of the Rings and Warner Brothers because on Fiction Alley they sold (with artwork of the HP characters) things with things familiar to both Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter areas.
I'm glad to finally find a website that agrees with me about HPFGU and the HP Fandom.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
New fan fiction archive, and misc. -- Laura, 04:14:11 09/10/02 Tue(dialup-67.28.36.243.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/67.28.36.243)
>>Shit... I was equally tossed out... but I caused
>>trouble on the way out. I e-mailed the firm Heidi was
>>at and ASKED if what she said was legally sound...
>>(They remember that too. Shortly after it, Heidi
>>moved to NY I think...)
>
>Should have done that when I got the complaint against
>my University and asked them if this was actually
>legal (it wasn't) and did they know that she was
>giving free services to people like C. But I didn't
>want to get involved and I just wanted to get my
>finals over with. They filed the complaint precisely
>just to get me nervous (they knew this characteristic
>of mine and used it to their advantage).
I've heard several stories and (had a lot of contact with them over an incident with a stalker... had ethical concerns over that. Yeah, stalking isn't ethical but it's also ethically questionable to post the messages in whole that the stalker wrote because that's to a certain degree asking to be stalked and a violation of copyright which was something I was never quite comfortable with having had to deal with that on my own. The whole situation made me nervous because as things on the Internet happen in fandom, my ethical and moral viewpoints begin to get more firmed up and solidified and that one left me very uncomfortable because hell, I had to take their word for it and their word on the situation was one that seemed to be not meshing with what was happening. If you don't want to be stalked, you don't broadcast stuff like that so publically and they were almost seeming to manfacature it and well yeah.)
>>Try http://www.fandomination.net/ No HP people there
>>from that group and big thing against plagiarism.
>
>That's a good thing, and besides Fiction Alley is a
>bit too much for me (I haven't been there in ages but
>it's all artsy vartsy). I like simple pages and
>fandomination.net seems to be simplicity.
That was created (took 6 months) mostly because I wanted something that matched my ethics and morals when it came to certain things that sites like FF.Net and FA.Org did NOT. I have problems with selling of merchandise that capitalizes on other people's copyrights and trademarks. (FD.Net has cafepress stuff just because we thought it's cool but it won't have any references to trademarked material.) I also had issues with FF.Net when it came to an inconsistent policy in regards to ActorFic and MSTs. They allow sooooo much Real Person Fic and so much ActorFic... It isn't even funny yet they blanket it. The other thing is that I have ethical issues with the tolerance of plagiarism which to me is just theft. It can't get any plainer or simpler. (Heck, their Terms of Service they ROBBED from FF.Net which I wrote. It says zero tolerance of plagiarism yet... well, bah. They don't own up to their hypocrisy. I try to own up to mine.)
In addition fd.net improves some of my nagging nigglign problems with quality and feedback that other sites don't really have. Some people don't like giving constructive crit publically. If they try to send privately on some sites, the authors tend to flame the author for not doing it publically or for sending constructive crit. Site mail is integrated so authors can send private mail. Each story has a threaded message board so that the author and reader can have a dialogue which makes conversation EASIER to have. It's really difficult and clunky to do that in a review format or on a forum like ikonboard which isn't threaded. IT also means you don't have to read everything and should make culpability easier for flamers as people can directly respond to them.
Another thing is we've builty in quality controls in an automated fashion so that things are a lot easier to like ensure a better product... better overall quality story. There is so much junk out there. We've also got built in constructive feedbacking system so when we say it isn't good enough the author knows why and has many chances to resubmit.
We're hoping the layout is easier. IT takes a few more clicks in order to get some stuff but hopefully you'll be better able to find what you want when you want it. It's laid out by ship or character for HP. FA.Org's humor, novels, whatever else made me confused when I was looking for stories. On top of that, they had no integration for searching between all those domains... I had a heck of a time finding my one fic.
>They've also gotten warnings from the people who did
>Lord of the Rings and Warner Brothers because on
>Fiction Alley they sold (with artwork of the HP
>characters) things with things familiar to both Lord
>of the Rings and Harry Potter areas.
Yeah. I heard from some of my friends that they were going to report them... Never saw any reaction from them publically about it so I just assumed they never did it... do you know any more about that?
>I'm glad to finally find a website that agrees with me
>about HPFGU and the HP Fandom.
:) This is just a message board really to discuss ethics and legalities of fandom... It just so happens that the CC issue has a lot of people with strong feelings either way and the ethical and legal implications of her actions are some what questionable when I look at them. I don't think they set an altogether good precedent for others to follow. *shrugs*
But hey, they did give me an idea and when we get FD.Net up and about, we'll start on an archive for g and pg rated fics only like FF.Net (IE, original fiction and stuff) targetted at kids 15 and uder with stories for kids 15 and under by kids 15 and under...)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: New fan fiction archive, and misc. -- K., 08:36:19 09/10/02 Tue(babc273-0801-dhcp62.bu.edu/168.122.206.62)
>I've heard several stories and (had a lot of contact
>with them over an incident with a stalker... had
>ethical concerns over that. Yeah, stalking isn't
>ethical but it's also ethically questionable to post
>the messages in whole that the stalker wrote because
>that's to a certain degree asking to be stalked and a
>violation of copyright which was something I was never
>quite comfortable with having had to deal with that on
>my own. The whole situation made me nervous because
>as things on the Internet happen in fandom, my ethical
>and moral viewpoints begin to get more firmed up and
>solidified and that one left me very uncomfortable
>because hell, I had to take their word for it and
>their word on the situation was one that seemed to be
>not meshing with what was happening. If you don't
>want to be stalked, you don't broadcast stuff like
>that so publically and they were almost seeming to
>manfacature it and well yeah.)
I was around the chat area when that happened, they talked about the stalker a whole lot and talked about what to do with him. The stalker was the husband of someone who ran one of the websites. This woman had met with CC and that is why the stalker knew so much about CC and what clothing she wore, blah blah. Anyway they got this person's ISP taken away and got the woman kicked out of her own website. It was not nice (or ethical) of the stalker but I just read one of your lj entries and you had linked to C's lj about another instance of stalking. I had gotten a post on my lj from this girl named Harriet P. (or movestarmal in that convo C put up) and she asked me to e-mail her because "I was her hero" and C responded to that post and told her to stop her ramblings, and Harriet P. said that she wanted to get my e-mail so she could send it out to everyone so I could get a bunch of hatemail. I heard from someone who is sort of between worlds (still reads from FA and chats in the room, but doesn't like them because of what happened to me) that C said that my lj was the wrong K and laughed. Seriously, it was not nice to have someone write in my OWN lj about sending me *hate mail*.
C constantly brags about being stalked. My fiancé and I were talking about the way she acts on boards and we both agreed that she tries to provoke "angry" people in order so she could have the pleasure of being the one to kick the person out. She once told someone to IM me and she said that she had my phone number and would tell my parents what a bad person I am. She usually does this to get people on her side (ie my OWN parents) and the University I'm at as well.
>That was created (took 6 months) mostly because I
>wanted something that matched my ethics and morals
>when it came to certain things that sites like FF.Net
>and FA.Org did NOT. I have problems with selling of
>merchandise that capitalizes on other people's
>copyrights and trademarks. (FD.Net has cafepress
>stuff just because we thought it's cool but it won't
>have any references to trademarked material.) I also
>had issues with FF.Net when it came to an inconsistent
>policy in regards to ActorFic and MSTs. They allow
>sooooo much Real Person Fic and so much ActorFic...
>It isn't even funny yet they blanket it. The other
>thing is that I have ethical issues with the tolerance
>of plagiarism which to me is just theft. It can't get
>any plainer or simpler. (Heck, their Terms of Service
>they ROBBED from FF.Net which I wrote. It says zero
>tolerance of plagiarism yet... well, bah. They don't
>own up to their hypocrisy. I try to own up to mine.)
I used to be on FF.net for a while, until CC was booted for plagiarism (which I didn't believe at the time until someone presented me with evidence that she did). Although I'm glad that I'm gone from FF.net because towards that time last year, they kept updating their site and it got a lot more confusing than when I first joined. I was actually thinking of just pulling my works off there and just finish it up for myself and see how it all works out. Even when FA was just formed, I didn't understand how the submission worked. I still don't, I have not seen a clear explanation on FA, but I haven't seen the website for a while as I'm trying to stay far, far away from them.
Constructive crit doesn't exist in C's world. Even if you criticise her gentily, like "You know there's a little thing lacking" her fans will descend upon you like boll weevils. The constructive crit is in the form of, "you know I don't like the way this character acted but otherwise your story is absolutely fantastic" so it's a vague form of crit but it's obviously praise. I like criticism, I think it really helps me write, I even ask my best friends and fiancé to honestly read my papers and stories and I've written the most incredible papers of my life this summer because my sibling is a wonderful critic of my writings and my teacher at Oxford gave me an A for my works. So that's one example on how crit can work, and since C doesn't take them well or doesn't listen to them, as a result, her work is skunky.
>Another thing is we've builty in quality controls in
>an automated fashion so that things are a lot easier
>to like ensure a better product... better overall
>quality story. There is so much junk out there.
>We've also got built in constructive feedbacking
>system so when we say it isn't good enough the author
>knows why and has many chances to resubmit.
That's a very good idea, and it can be read over by the author themselves and they can eventually see what is wrong with their writings. That's a very good system for fan fiction in a whole. What about reviews? If the author resumbits the work does s/he lose the reviews or do they stay put?
>We're hoping the layout is easier. IT takes a few
>more clicks in order to get some stuff but hopefully
>you'll be better able to find what you want when you
>want it. It's laid out by ship or character for HP.
>FA.Org's humor, novels, whatever else made me confused
>when I was looking for stories. On top of that, they
>had no integration for searching between all those
>domains... I had a heck of a time finding my one fic.
Exactly, when I first started to read A/S's fictions I thought they would be in Riddikulus because they're aimed towards a certain sort of humour but they were in the Schnoogle part and I had a hard time finding them. The author listing is also a bit confusing too. But then again I'm basing this on when I saw it in January so it may have changed since then. I'm trying to stay as far away as I can from them because they're dangerous and certainly hell bent on ruining lives.
>Yeah. I heard from some of my friends that they were
>going to report them... Never saw any reaction from
>them publically about it so I just assumed they never
>did it... do you know any more about that?
I do know about those, they really didn't say much but removed them and cursed them privately on the message boards (on yahoo groups) and on their ljs but not really too publicly. One of their artists, or she calls herself Starling, had her works removed from the elfwood gallery and she was removed as the artist for the front page of the FA site but she's still their friend so far. They try to get around things by using C's Secret Diaries (which reminds me of Bridget Jones's actually) and using lines like "Pervy Elf Fanciers" on their t-shirts, it may sound funny but she's been doing the secret diaries thing for so long it's gotten worn thin.
This is just a message board really to discuss
>ethics and legalities of fandom... It just so happens
>that the CC issue has a lot of people with strong
>feelings either way and the ethical and legal
>implications of her actions are some what questionable
>when I look at them. I don't think they set an
>altogether good precedent for others to follow.
>*shrugs*
Yep, CC's example, although *all* of her fans will disagree with me, isn't a very good one. But hey, she's really popular so her fans really don't care if she breaks a law, they think she's the coolest person on earth. Even her friends on their livejournals beam with pride that they actually *know* CC. It's a bit egostical for CC of course. There's actually a saying: "What's popular isn't good and what's not popular may as well be good" that could apply to the CC persona.
I have another point to say: the clubs I was in have kind of a Jekyll/Hyde personality. They may seem nice at first, super friendly and all. Later, like I said about the "wrong step," they become supremely nasty and almost petty. Have you experienced that?
>But hey, they did give me an idea and when we get
>FD.Net up and about, we'll start on an archive for g
>and pg rated fics only like FF.Net (IE, original
>fiction and stuff) targetted at kids 15 and uder with
>stories for kids 15 and under by kids 15 and under...)
I heard about those but they already had the NC-17 type fiction in their website and many parents of kids who liked to read their stories complained to the administrators that the website seemingly is aimed at kids (with the cartoons and what not) and yet they have slashy stories, stories with sexual overtones. I'm not against those types of stories but that's really the reason why they are thinking of/have already done that, forming a separate site for the naughty fics.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: New fan fiction archive, and misc. -- Laura, 09:35:07 09/10/02 Tue(NoHost/66.99.56.162)
>I was around the chat area when that happened, they
>talked about the stalker a whole lot and talked about
>what to do with him. The stalker was the husband of
>someone who ran one of the websites. This woman had
>met with CC and that is why the stalker knew so much
>about CC and what clothing she wore, blah blah. Anyway
>they got this person's ISP taken away and got the
>woman kicked out of her own website. It was not nice
>(or ethical) of the stalker but I just read one of
>your lj entries and you had linked to C's lj about
>another instance of stalking. I had gotten a post on
>my lj from this girl named Harriet P. (or movestarmal
>in that convo C put up) and she asked me to e-mail her
>because "I was her hero" and C responded to that post
>and told her to stop her ramblings, and Harriet P.
>said that she wanted to get my e-mail so she could
>send it out to everyone so I could get a bunch of
>hatemail. I heard from someone who is sort of between
>worlds (still reads from FA and chats in the room, but
>doesn't like them because of what happened to me) that
>C said that my lj was the wrong K and laughed.
>Seriously, it was not nice to have someone write in my
>OWN lj about sending me *hate mail*.
I was around their chat room long enough (about three Sundays) (chat room being HP4GU) to realize that hmmmm... I wasn't getting talked to, and that the remember contacting my law firm comment was just well... I helped you with your stalker which you're continuing to bait... You contacted me and your Private Investigator contacted me.... blah. I realized that the Snapish end of the fandom was for me and I rarely run across CC except on VeelaInc (which I rarely read.)
>C constantly brags about being stalked. My fiancé and
>I were talking about the way she acts on boards and we
>both agreed that she tries to provoke "angry" people
>in order so she could have the pleasure of being the
>one to kick the person out. She once told someone to
>IM me and she said that she had my phone number and
>would tell my parents what a bad person I am. She
>usually does this to get people on her side (ie my OWN
>parents) and the University I'm at as well.
It wouldn't surprise me. I don't know enough of the facts but it wouldn't surpise me based on what they've said in journals and when they contacted me about the stalker.
>>That was created (took 6 months) mostly because I
>>wanted something that matched my ethics and morals
>>when it came to certain things that sites like FF.Net
>>and FA.Org did NOT. I have problems with selling of
>>merchandise that capitalizes on other people's
>>copyrights and trademarks. (FD.Net has cafepress
>>stuff just because we thought it's cool but it won't
>>have any references to trademarked material.) I also
>>had issues with FF.Net when it came to an inconsistent
>>policy in regards to ActorFic and MSTs. They allow
>>sooooo much Real Person Fic and so much ActorFic...
>>It isn't even funny yet they blanket it. The other
>>thing is that I have ethical issues with the tolerance
>>of plagiarism which to me is just theft. It can't get
>>any plainer or simpler. (Heck, their Terms of Service
>>they ROBBED from FF.Net which I wrote. It says zero
>>tolerance of plagiarism yet... well, bah. They don't
>>own up to their hypocrisy. I try to own up to mine.)
>
>I used to be on FF.net for a while, until CC was
>booted for plagiarism (which I didn't believe at the
>time until someone presented me with evidence that she
>did).
I was floored too. I was on her list at the time that went down because well, I'm occasionaly a web site whore and I wanted to plug links as appropiate. Wow. I was surprised. I broke that news to them on list when they all were like OMG what happened to her fics?!? I got banned with out an explanation and basically got told ooops. Gee, all I did was report what FF.Net did.
Does she have disclaimers yet? I know she was (initially lying about her contacting Pamela Dean because I knew she hadn't early on) in contact about those disclaimers with PD's agent... but I never saw any change in disclaimer usage.
>Although I'm glad that I'm gone from FF.net
>because towards that time last year, they kept
>updating their site and it got a lot more confusing
>than when I first joined. I was actually thinking of
>just pulling my works off there and just finish it up
>for myself and see how it all works out. Even when FA
>was just formed, I didn't understand how the
>submission worked. I still don't, I have not seen a
>clear explanation on FA, but I haven't seen the
>website for a while as I'm trying to stay far, far
>away from them.
It's confusion is also why I stayy away. I don't have many fics (burned out of fandom at times... though I have a bunny involving Mulder ending up on Voyager... about three sentences written.) so it's never been an issue for me. The other thing is that so many of the fics there have characterizations I can't stand. CCs are just it's like is she even reading the books?
>Constructive crit doesn't exist in C's world. Even if
>you criticise her gentily, like "You know there's a
>little thing lacking" her fans will descend upon you
>like boll weevils.
But I thought I saw once where she asked Heidi to beta read for her?
Before the whole plagiarism think went down, I e-mailed her to TELL her that FF.Net had that accusation.
>The constructive crit is in the
>form of, "you know I don't like the way this character
>acted but otherwise your story is absolutely
>fantastic" so it's a vague form of crit but it's
>obviously praise. I like criticism, I think it really
>helps me write, I even ask my best friends and fiancé
>to honestly read my papers and stories and I've
>written the most incredible papers of my life this
>summer because my sibling is a wonderful critic of my
>writings and my teacher at Oxford gave me an A for my
>works. So that's one example on how crit can work, and
>since C doesn't take them well or doesn't listen to
>them, as a result, her work is skunky.
I like criticism at times... Some times, well most of the time, I prefer nothing (even praise.) and I have to prepare myself for it :) (Like today, some one said that my story on FD.Net was OOC and poorly written. That was in the subject line. Too tired and lazy to refute it and I'm still working on my writing and at this point, aside from those I trust, I don't care what they say though I've really benefitted from constructive feedback in the past.
>>Another thing is we've builty in quality controls
>in
>>an automated fashion so that things are a lot
>easier
>>to like ensure a better product... better overall
>>quality story. There is so much junk out there.
>>We've also got built in constructive feedbacking
>>system so when we say it isn't good enough the
>author
>>knows why and has many chances to resubmit.
>
>That's a very good idea, and it can be read over by
>the author themselves and they can eventually see what
>is wrong with their writings. That's a very good
>system for fan fiction in a whole. What about reviews?
>If the author resumbits the work does s/he lose the
>reviews or do they stay put?
If the story is removed, they might loose their message board comments. (I refuse to call them reviews. I HATE HATE that word.) I don't believe they will as those message boards are tied in to the story so if you delete the story, the comments are still there... It's just up to you to have that book marked.
If the stories need to be approved before they are posted, the point will be pretty moot.
>Exactly, when I first started to read A/S's fictions I
>thought they would be in Riddikulus because they're
>aimed towards a certain sort of humour but they were
>in the Schnoogle part and I had a hard time finding
>them. The author listing is also a bit confusing too.
>But then again I'm basing this on when I saw it in
>January so it may have changed since then. I'm trying
>to stay as far away as I can from them because they're
>dangerous and certainly hell bent on ruining lives.
I haven't been there in a long while and Flourish has seemingly to have stopped plugging it on all the mailing lists that I'm on. (Flourish last I recall didn't like me either because I told her that I got the feeling from FF.Net staff that they were not happy with her saying how WRONG FF.Net was in the whole CC dealypooh... This was back when she was on staff.)
The author thing, they said it was great but once again, it doesn't cross domains.
>>Yeah. I heard from some of my friends that they
>were
>>going to report them... Never saw any reaction
>from
>>them publically about it so I just assumed they
>never
>>did it... do you know any more about that?
>
>I do know about those, they really didn't say much but
>removed them and cursed them privately on the message
>boards (on yahoo groups) and on their ljs but not
>really too publicly. One of their artists, or she
>calls herself Starling, had her works removed from the
>elfwood gallery and she was removed as the artist for
>the front page of the FA site but she's still their
>friend so far. They try to get around things by using
>C's Secret Diaries (which reminds me of Bridget
>Jones's actually) and using lines like "Pervy Elf
>Fanciers" on their t-shirts, it may sound funny but
>she's been doing the secret diaries thing for so long
>it's gotten worn thin.
Lovely.
>Yep, CC's example, although *all* of her fans will
>disagree with me, isn't a very good one. But hey,
>she's really popular so her fans really don't care if
>she breaks a law, they think she's the coolest person
>on earth. Even her friends on their livejournals beam
>with pride that they actually *know* CC. It's a bit
>egostical for CC of course. There's actually a saying:
>"What's popular isn't good and what's not popular may
>as well be good" that could apply to the CC persona.
I'd like to meet her just so I can complete my mental image of her :) But that's not even on my list of things I'd like to do as I have bigger things I need to do.
>I have another point to say: the clubs I was in have
>kind of a Jekyll/Hyde personality. They may seem nice
>at first, super friendly and all. Later, like I said
>about the "wrong step," they become supremely nasty
>and almost petty. Have you experienced that?
Somewhat yes... Regarding at least Flourish and Heidi.
>I heard about those but they already had the NC-17
>type fiction in their website and many parents of kids
>who liked to read their stories complained to the
>administrators that the website seemingly is aimed at
>kids (with the cartoons and what not) and yet they
>have slashy stories, stories with sexual overtones.
>I'm not against those types of stories but that's
>really the reason why they are thinking of/have
>already done that, forming a separate site for the
>naughty fics.
I'm okay with most all types of fics so long as they are properly labeled. I got the idea for a g rated archive after I talked to a reporter and they had talked to CC and Heidi about how it's the parents responsibility to police stuff, not theirs. My view is that parents shouldn't have to do all the policing but rather fans should, in their own best interest, create g rated and pg rated archives to parents won't fear their kids being involved in fandom... but that whole project of mine is still in the works...
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Re: New fan fiction archive, and misc. -- Mentioned at the end of this note., 10:48:43 09/10/02 Tue(babc273-0801-dhcp62.bu.edu/168.122.206.62)
>I was around their chat room long enough (about three
>Sundays) (chat room being HP4GU) to realize that
>hmmmm... I wasn't getting talked to, and that the
>remember contacting my law firm comment was just
>well... I helped you with your stalker which you're
>continuing to bait... You contacted me and your
>Private Investigator contacted me.... blah. I
>realized that the Snapish end of the fandom was for meand I rarely run across CC except on VeelaInc (which I rarely read.)
I thought I had recognised you from somewhere, I used to be in that chat almost every Sunday starting from December 10, 2000 until January of 2002. They often don't explain things which they're secretive about, but I have met some of the admins, I'll only list their initials here, JW, Ca Cole, N. W., J. F., and others and they've told me what they have been talking about on their "private boards" and often told me what they got in emails regarding the club and other issues, including the CC issue and FA. Only one of the admins I met, JW, writes spin offs from CC's story and was the only one of the admins to openly praise her (he's quite pushy in person). The others I mentioned above had talked about how CC did indeed plagiarise and even talked about JW, and certaintly in not a kind way. It often baffles me why they're all still friends when they treat them like that behind their backs. But then I still don't understand them.
>It wouldn't surprise me. I don't know enough of the
>facts but it wouldn't surpise me based on what they've
>said in journals and when they contacted me about the
>stalker.
Of course, the actions they usually take doesn't surprise anyone who really have an idea about them. Their victims, like me, are usually surprised that they had taken action upon them (for something they didn't do). I've seen people leave and not come back precisely for that reason because they're irrational about things. For example, CC had called Ca Cole an anti-semite because she only brought up the formation of Israel as a controversial subject and CC ran to tell H. T. (who's Jewish) to get her against Ca Cole. The club has evolved from when I first joined to when I was initially kicked out. Even when someone innocently mentions my name (even if it's not related to me), like one time on the PoU list earlier this spring, the HPFGU admins threaten to kick them out. This has changed the attitude of a whole lot of people and they've also started leaving because of HPFGU's attitude towards me.
>I was floored too. I was on her list at the time that
>went down because well, I'm occasionaly a web site
>whore and I wanted to plug links as appropiate. Wow.
>I was surprised. I broke that news to them on list
>when they all were like OMG what happened to her
>fics?!? I got banned with out an explanation and
>basically got told ooops. Gee, all I did was report
>what FF.Net did.
Really? I don't remember that happening, but then I really only was in the HPFGU chat and only posted on the HPFGU-OTChatter list. I got a little sick of being on so many HPFGU related groups so I left a whole bunch of them and only stayed on the OT list until I was kicked out. I think they've really made too many lists and it actually confuses the new people (The OT list made a Movie list because the Movie List was too OT to be on the Main List but was also too OT for the OT list... get it? I don't get it)
>Does she have disclaimers yet? I know she was
>(initially lying about her contacting Pamela Dean
>because I knew she hadn't early on) in contact about
>those disclaimers with PD's agent... but I never saw
>any change in disclaimer usage.
When The H p f GU England meet got together last Summer, they discussed the disclaimer part. When CC first released that chapter, she never put a disclaimer about those two paragraphs in her disclaimer list. But AFTER she was kicked out of FF.net and then moved onto FA.org, she initially added the disclaimer later. She was yanked so fast from FF.net that not many people had read her story so she fudged what had initially happened by stating that she always disclaimed the part of her story that she was kicked out for.
>It's confusion is also why I stayy away. I don't have
>many fics (burned out of fandom at times... though I
>have a bunny involving Mulder ending up on Voyager...
>about three sentences written.) so it's never been an
>issue for me. The other thing is that so many of the
>fics there have characterizations I can't stand. CCs
>are just it's like is she even reading the books?
Many of the HPFGU (except with JW of course) meets consisted talking about exactly that and they concluded that she is just writing for the sake of getting written praises.
>But I thought I saw once where she asked Heidi to beta read for her?
H. T.'s her lawyer and a friend of hers, even when she beta reads them she keeps most of the material in which she considers funny like the Buffy lines everyone thinks are CC's. Usually beta readers are best for not being such a good friend that they don't see the fic as perfect and eventually catch these kind of things. CC precisely chooses her friends to beta read because they won't change very much.
>Before the whole plagiarism think went down, I
>e-mailed her to TELL her that FF.Net had that
>accusation.
What had happened then?
>I haven't been there in a long while and Flourish has
>seemingly to have stopped plugging it on all the
>mailing lists that I'm on. (Flourish last I recall
>didn't like me either because I told her that I got
>the feeling from FF.Net staff that they were not happy
>with her saying how WRONG FF.Net was in the whole CC dealypooh... This was back when she was on staff.)
Yes I remember Flourish (Maddy), she also has an exclusive club that only is limited a certain number of people so I really don't bother. I tried joining as a joke and not surprisingly they rejected me because there were too many people (15 people at the time) on the list. She often praised CC and CC considers her a friend but I've not heard much about the link of Flourish/CC. I think Flourish helped with FA too so I think that's why she's friends with the whole lot of them.
>Lovely.
Yep it's quite lovely isn't it. Although I was one of the people (BEFORE I was kicked out actually) that told them that I wasn't sure using even drawn images of Harry and co, or using LOTR references to get money was a good idea and they brushed it off. Later when they did get the warning they thought I had reported them and I got loads of cold shoulders from CC's front but still talked to the rest of the people before I was officially kicked out.
>I'd like to meet her just so I can complete my mental
>image of her :) But that's not even on my list of
>things I'd like to do as I have bigger things I need
>to do.
I've seen a picture of her, she looks sort of like Franka Potente actually but a bit chubbier and a bit scary. She does have red hair like people say. I'm not saying this to be an enemy of her but just a constructive crit here, she's not exactly the most good looking person in the world. It's like they say JW's one of the most handsome people in the HP fandom but really I've met him in person.... oh well, if you see a picture you can form an opinion of him. But don't judge by looks, I've met some of the cuter people and they're really nasty inside.
>Somewhat yes... Regarding at least Flourish and Heidi.
Heidi definitly has a mean streak regarding some issues. That's my comment on her.
>I'm okay with most all types of fics so long as they
>are properly labeled. I got the idea for a g rated
>archive after I talked to a reporter and they had
>talked to CC and Heidi about how it's the parents
>responsibility to police stuff, not theirs. My view
>is that parents shouldn't have to do all the policing
>but rather fans should, in their own best interest,
>create g rated and pg rated archives to parents won't
>fear their kids being involved in fandom... but that
>whole project of mine is still in the works...
I think for those kids, ie some of them are 14, if they feel that they're mature enough to handle those materials, go for it. it's like the sealing of Playboy because parents complained that their kids were climbing those magazine racks and reading pornographic material. I think there could be a NetNanny or something if parents don't feel that certain materials are right for the kids. But I feel, for reading, kids do have a right to see some sort of material, no matter how explicit the fan fiction is, because they'll encounter it in novels like Stephen King or other authors. I was 11 when I read Stephen King's Misery and from then on I knew there would be material like that and it's only a story, a creative innovation. Unlike CC, King doesn't plagiarise.
Gee, at this point it seems like we should start a club :) One about fannish ethics at any rate... I think this is one of the few boards out on the Net that says anything like that but well yeah.
>
>I thought I had recognised you from somewhere, I used
>to be in that chat almost every Sunday starting from
>December 10, 2000 until January of 2002.
Probably. I think I was either as Michela Ecks or Bouncing Purple Popple.
> They often
>don't explain things which they're secretive about,
>but I have met some of the admins, I'll only list
>their initials here, JW, Ca Cole, N. W., J. F., and
>others and they've told me what they have been talking
>about on their "private boards" and often told me what
>they got in emails regarding the club and other
>issues, including the CC issue and FA.
Ah... I used to hang around in a chat room where we said similar stuff. I was always surprised that the HP4GU room wasn't open 24 hours a day because I would have enjoyed that.
>Only one of the
>admins I met, JW, writes spin offs from CC's story and
>was the only one of the admins to openly praise her
>(he's quite pushy in person). The others I mentioned
>above had talked about how CC did indeed plagiarise
>and even talked about JW, and certaintly in not a kind
>way. It often baffles me why they're all still friends
>when they treat them like that behind their backs. But
>then I still don't understand them.
That's weird. Most of the people I hang out with on the Internet are people I can happily praise because they are genuinely NICE people. I have friends on-line who don't care about stuff I do and they are great relationships and among my most cherished because they have no aspect of use/use which seems to happen a lot on the Internet. I've made a few other friends through projects. If I couldn't stand a person, I don't think I could work with them for something in my free time. It would just suck all the fun out of fandom and make it work, not fun. (So far, my site is a lot of fun. I love it and I'm willing to spend two hours a day on it.)
>>It wouldn't surprise me. I don't know enough of the
>>facts but it wouldn't surpise me based on what they've
>>said in journals and when they contacted me about the
>>stalker.
>
>Of course, the actions they usually take doesn't
>surprise anyone who really have an idea about them.
>Their victims, like me, are usually surprised that
>they had taken action upon them (for something they
>didn't do).
I just get really confused because it seems hard to believe there could be people that nasty out there that often... What's the point? It's not ethical. It's not really moral. It doesn't seem like it would be all that fun. (Or, I'm reading this great book about how striving for money and fame doesn't equate with happiness. I'm confused because if they are doing that, it doesn't seem like it would make them happy unless they were getting some sort of maschochist pleasure out of it.)
> I've seen people leave and not come back
>precisely for that reason because they're irrational
>about things. For example, CC had called Ca Cole an
>anti-semite because she only brought up the formation
>of Israel as a controversial subject and CC ran to
>tell H. T. (who's Jewish) to get her against Ca Cole.
>The club has evolved from when I first joined to when
>I was initially kicked out.
I remember hearing some sort of rumor about that... and was disturbed. (H.T. being Jewish is interesting. Blah. I'm interested in Judaism because I really have enjoyed some of the stuff I've read by such religious scholars as Martin Buber... Great stuff. I'm digressing.) Just mentioning it doesn't make you anti-semetic.
>Even when someone
>innocently mentions my name (even if it's not related
>to me), like one time on the PoU list earlier this
>spring, the HPFGU admins threaten to kick them out.
>This has changed the attitude of a whole lot of people
>and they've also started leaving because of HPFGU's
>attitude towards me.
What did you do to them???
There was one after the whole incident went down who sent me a private e-mail saying not all the staff were supporters of CC and plaigarism.
>>I was floored too. I was on her list at the time that
>>went down because well, I'm occasionaly a web site
>>whore and I wanted to plug links as appropiate. Wow.
>>I was surprised. I broke that news to them on list
>>when they all were like OMG what happened to her
>>fics?!? I got banned with out an explanation and
>>basically got told ooops. Gee, all I did was report
>>what FF.Net did.
>
>Really? I don't remember that happening, but then I
>really only was in the HPFGU chat and only posted on
>the HPFGU-OTChatter list.
That was on PoU. I posted the extracts ON LIST. People still couldn't see it.
> I got a little sick of being
>on so many HPFGU related groups so I left a whole
>bunch of them and only stayed on the OT list until I
>was kicked out. I think they've really made too many
>lists and it actually confuses the new people (The OT
>list made a Movie list because the Movie List was too
>OT to be on the Main List but was also too OT for the
>OT list... get it? I don't get it)
I am on or was on the great lakes regional list. I never could make their meet up though I would have liked to just so I could meet people. I liked the OT list for adults but it was hard. Still on the main one just in case I need info about HP.
>>Does she have disclaimers yet? I know she was
>>(initially lying about her contacting Pamela Dean
>>because I knew she hadn't early on) in contact about
>>those disclaimers with PD's agent... but I never saw
>>any change in disclaimer usage.
>
>When The H p f GU England meet got together last
>Summer, they discussed the disclaimer part. When CC
>first released that chapter, she never put a
>disclaimer about those two paragraphs in her
>disclaimer list. But AFTER she was kicked out of
>FF.net and then moved onto FA.org, she initially added
>the disclaimer later. She was yanked so fast from
>FF.net that not many people had read her story so she
>fudged what had initially happened by stating that she
>always disclaimed the part of her story that she was
>kicked out for.
I knew she didn't have disclaimers as I was told of the situation as it was going down... I know in her many foreign versions of it, there are no disclaimers and on Ryhsenn's private tripod page, there are no disclaimers. (Really, some one should e-mail Pamela Dean again and ask about that. I'm guessing that Cassie lied about that or the author lacked follow up.)
>>It's confusion is also why I stayy away. I don't have
>>many fics (burned out of fandom at times... though I
>>have a bunny involving Mulder ending up on Voyager...
>>about three sentences written.) so it's never been an
>>issue for me. The other thing is that so many of the
>>fics there have characterizations I can't stand. CCs
>>are just it's like is she even reading the books?
>
>Many of the HPFGU (except with JW of course) meets
>consisted talking about exactly that and they
>concluded that she is just writing for the sake of
>getting written praises.
Ah... That's... sad... really sad. Even my incredibly large inflated ego isn't that large that I need to do that. (FD.Net isn't about ego but rather about need of that sort of archive, and meeting my own moral and ethical constraints.) (Side note, though praise would wait... no... Thanks is good.) (Praise could mean fan fiction like that Xing from FF.Net had involving poorly written authorfic where Xing had children.)
>>But I thought I saw once where she asked Heidi to
>beta read for her?
>
>H. T.'s her lawyer and a friend of hers, even when she
>beta reads them she keeps most of the material in
>which she considers funny like the Buffy lines
>everyone thinks are CC's. Usually beta readers are
>best for not being such a good friend that they don't
>see the fic as perfect and eventually catch these kind
>of things. CC precisely chooses her friends to beta
>read because they won't change very much.
Huh. My best friends beta for me because they can be the most brutely honest with me. I choose them for that reason. I don't like being lied to. Our friendships are better for that.
>>Before the whole plagiarism think went down, I
>>e-mailed her to TELL her that FF.Net had that
>>accusation.
>
>What had happened then?
She claimed to never have recieved it and people roasted me for not being more urgent in telling her.
>>I haven't been there in a long while and Flourish has
>>seemingly to have stopped plugging it on all the
>>mailing lists that I'm on. (Flourish last I recall
>>didn't like me either because I told her that I got
>>the feeling from FF.Net staff that they were not happy
>>with her saying how WRONG FF.Net was in the whole CC
>dealypooh... This was back when she was on staff.)
>
>Yes I remember Flourish (Maddy), she also has an
>exclusive club that only is limited a certain number
>of people so I really don't bother.
She wanted to be on staff at WU when it was on FF.Net BADLY REALLY BADLY. I never considered that a good idea as she set off warning bells and was really too young. She got on staff at FF.Net in charge of the Terms of Service. Like what the heck?
>I tried joining as
>a joke and not surprisingly they rejected me because
>there were too many people (15 people at the time) on
>the list. She often praised CC and CC considers her a
>friend but I've not heard much about the link of
>Flourish/CC.
I've heard bigger links between Flourish/Fiction Alley and Flourish/Heidi. She was the impetus for FA.Org.
> I think Flourish helped with FA too so I
>think that's why she's friends with the whole lot of
>them.
Yeah.
>>Lovely.
>
>Yep it's quite lovely isn't it. Although I was one of
>the people (BEFORE I was kicked out actually) that
>told them that I wasn't sure using even drawn images
>of Harry and co, or using LOTR references to get money
>was a good idea and they brushed it off. Later when
>they did get the warning they thought I had reported
>them and I got loads of cold shoulders from CC's front
>but still talked to the rest of the people before I
>was officially kicked out.
Massive suckage. I think their problem is that they have offended so many people that their actions are being so heavily scrutunized for stuff that people can report THEM for because I can think of TWO people, probably closer to three or four who I KNOW reported them.
>I've seen a picture of her, she looks sort of like
>Franka Potente actually but a bit chubbier and a bit
>scary. She does have red hair like people say. I'm
>not saying this to be an enemy of her but just a
>constructive crit here, she's not exactly the most
>good looking person in the world. It's like they say
>JW's one of the most handsome people in the HP fandom
>but really I've met him in person.... oh well, if you
>see a picture you can form an opinion of him. But
>don't judge by looks, I've met some of the cuter
>people and they're really nasty inside.
Oh... I pictured her as sort of tall and brunette and skinny and.. sort of like a Georgia from Ally McBeal type character...
>>Somewhat yes... Regarding at least Flourish and
>Heidi.
>
>Heidi definitly has a mean streak regarding some
>issues. That's my comment on her.
My dealings with her have been hypocritical? I get told two different things at different times and well, yeah. That's it. I don't know how to view as other than the worst type of hypocrit for not acknowledging her hypocrisy. Orginally she told me that fan fiction WAS legal and then she said after the CC plagiarism thing went down that it wasn't so what did plagiarism matter?
>I think for those kids, ie some of them are 14, if
>they feel that they're mature enough to handle those
>materials, go for it. it's like the sealing of Playboy
>because parents complained that their kids were
>climbing those magazine racks and reading pornographic
>material. I think there could be a NetNanny or
>something if parents don't feel that certain materials
>are right for the kids. But I feel, for reading, kids
>do have a right to see some sort of material, no
>matter how explicit the fan fiction is, because
>they'll encounter it in novels like Stephen King or
>other authors. I was 11 when I read Stephen King's
>Misery and from then on I knew there would be material
>like that and it's only a story, a creative
>innovation. Unlike CC, King doesn't plagiarise.
I agree. I just think that while we give them those options, we should have alternatives for the younger set of fen out their who aren't yet ready to be exposed to that... (If I was a parent, I wouldn't want my kid reading at FanFiction.Net with out sitting right there.) Creating an archive to supplement the fannish stuff out there with just g rated fic would do that. You wouldn't have to force them to go there. You would just know that if it was there, you'd only read fics that were pretty much nonoffensive. It would make fen look good because it says "We care." and say "We know about your concerns." All in all, very good publicity for fan fiction writers and make us appear less sex obsessed. Plus it would give writers that were younger a chance to perfect their craft and give more erm conservative or older writers a chance to post their g rated fic to an audience that would be extremely appreciative of that material.
>Gee, at this point it seems like we should start a
>club :) One about fannish ethics at any rate... I
>think this is one of the few boards out on the Net
>that says anything like that but well yeah.
ooh that's a good idea... because most of the clubs that I was looking for are either anti-Harry Potter ( I like HP so no go) or the rest but they have the people who believe I'm the evil Monster of HP Fandom. I may have to create a whole new identity though just to avoid "them".
>Probably. I think I was either as Michela Ecks or
>Bouncing Purple Popple.
Michela Ecks I recognise, I may have been distracted by my then boyfriend (now fiancé) whom I had just met in person last year before the Cassiegate happened.
>Ah... I used to hang around in a chat room where we
>said similar stuff. I was always surprised that the
>HP4GU room wasn't open 24 hours a day because I would
>have enjoyed that.
The reason why it was only on Sundays was because that's pretty much the only time everyone had a day off from. They moved the chatroom after I tried to find out why I was kicked out and refused to give any explanation other than "We don't give evidence to criminals".
>That's weird. Most of the people I hang out with on
>the Internet are people I can happily praise because
>they are genuinely NICE people. I have friends
>on-line who don't care about stuff I do and they are
>great relationships and among my most cherished
>because they have no aspect of use/use which seems to
>happen a lot on the Internet. I've made a few other
>friends through projects. If I couldn't stand a
>person, I don't think I could work with them for
>something in my free time. It would just suck all the
>fun out of fandom and make it work, not fun. (So far,
>my site is a lot of fun. I love it and I'm willing to
>spend two hours a day on it.)
The fun has already been sucked out of HPFGU since January of 2001 because more and more people were joining and they had a growing list of helpers and admins (30 or so I think) and the admins had differing views on several things. For example, when I was kicked out of HPFGU, I only got notices from two admins and they were directly through the chatroom. I got a notice from one admin I had considered levelheaded through an email after I was kicked out so 3 out of the 10 or so admins told me basically to *f- off*.
here's a tidbit from the chatscript I kept:
John Walton: Sinead, just fuck off. You're not welcome in our community any more.
Michelle A: We'd rather have you out of here, Sinead. Just go because you will never be wanted again.
Stacey : Sinead, I really hope you're sitting in front of your computer and crying your eyes out right now. Because you fucking deserve it.
Need I say more? That was the send off they gave me. And I then had no clue what they were kicking me out for until later in the chatroom. I lost 10 pounds because I was so upset afterwards and had to go to a counselor because I got so paranoid about them stalking me.
I had used the chatscript as evidence plus e-mails. IMs are questionable unless you press a notify button which I did for an IM they had sent as evidence and AOL had verified was falsified. They just don't listen, they refuse to budge from their view of me. I don't really care about them now, I'm moving on with my life and planning to get married to my fiancé (whom I met in the chatroom, we're considered the first love match of the HP fandom lol)
>I just get really confused because it seems hard to
>believe there could be people that nasty out there
>that often... What's the point? It's not ethical.
>It's not really moral. It doesn't seem like it would
>be all that fun. (Or, I'm reading this great book
>about how striving for money and fame doesn't equate
>with happiness. I'm confused because if they are
>doing that, it doesn't seem like it would make them
>happy unless they were getting some sort of
>maschochist pleasure out of it.)
Yep and see above for example of how nasty they can get.
>I remember hearing some sort of rumor about that...
>and was disturbed.
and I didn't understand why Ca Cole and CC were friends. Friendly maybe, but probably not enough to meet up.
>What did you do to them???
I had made a lot of friends on the list and they thought the way I was kicked out was cruel and unjust so they left. the friends of mine who were friends of CC backstabbed me and sided with HPFGU. As you can imagine, that made me upset.
>There was one after the whole incident went down who
>sent me a private e-mail saying not all the staff were
>supporters of CC and plaigarism.
Even Simon B. who CC really likes, doesn't like CC. But he has her fooled just because he's in a load of fics.
>That was on PoU. I posted the extracts ON LIST.
>People still couldn't see it.
I tried posting the chatscript on list on OT chatter but they threatened to shut down my yahoo account if I even tried to come back. They use IP addresses to overdrive really. If someone from my Uni, without the knowledge of me (it's a huge Uni) had joined the club and said a simple hello and they check the IP addy and find that it's from my Uni they'd promptly kick that person out, without a second thought.
>I am on or was on the great lakes regional list. I
>never could make their meet up though I would have
>liked to just so I could meet people. I liked the OT
>list for adults but it was hard. Still on the main
>one just in case I need info about HP.
You must know about Ebony then? She was in the chatroom the day I was kicked out and told the room I had confessed to her about hacking through IM and they believed her and told her to tell all and she called me a flat out liar and the IM transcript she claimed she had never materialised. I only talked to her twice on IM and it was never about the hacking, only about my relationship or her stories. She seemed to be one of the brighter people on the list (a teacher) and seemed to be the nicest and cheeriest people in the chatroom.
>I knew she didn't have disclaimers as I was told of
>the situation as it was going down... I know in her
>many foreign versions of it, there are no disclaimers
>and on Ryhsenn's private tripod page, there are no
>disclaimers. (Really, some one should e-mail Pamela
>Dean again and ask about that. I'm guessing that
>Cassie lied about that or the author lacked follow up.)
No disclaimers were added in the original releases of her stories on the various groups she was on. Only the Fiction Alley site.
>Ah... That's... sad... really sad. Even my
>incredibly large inflated ego isn't that large that I
>need to do that. (FD.Net isn't about ego but rather
>about need of that sort of archive, and meeting my own
>moral and ethical constraints.) (Side note, though
>praise would wait... no... Thanks is good.) (Praise
>could mean fan fiction like that Xing from FF.Net had
>involving poorly written authorfic where Xing had
>children.)
It's good to have a ego but C's ego is so big it doesn't even fit through the doorway. Some of the poorly written fics on FF.net recieved little or no responses on the message board.
>Huh. My best friends beta for me because they can be
>the most brutely honest with me. I choose them for
>that reason. I don't like being lied to. Our
>friendships are better for that.
*shrugs* to this point I don't understand why they are friends over at FA and HPFGU.
>She claimed to never have recieved it and people
>roasted me for not being more urgent in telling her.
To this one I say, Um... C should have learned her lesson but she's still continuing her practises over at FA. They needent have roasted you or kicked you out, it's just an unfounded accusation really, but then they like to make up things and won't budge on their opinions when it is obviously that they were WRONG. It's like I went to hs with this guy who thought he was right in thinking exercise was incredibly bad for you (he was the computer whiz and aced every test and was on honour roll) and I told him he was wrong and he automatically unfriended me. It's strange isn't it?
>She wanted to be on staff at WU when it was on FF.Net
>BADLY REALLY BADLY. I never considered that a good
>idea as she set off warning bells and was really too
>young. She got on staff at FF.Net in charge of the
>Terms of Service. Like what the heck?
I've always thought Flourish was too young for things but she's good at making herself look more mature online and rubbing the right way with people in order to get on staff or to work on things. It's the same with Rex, a spoiled brat I used to work with and he was 13 when he joined the staff of FA. Apparently John (21) and Rex like each other but one to his own and not my business.
>I've heard bigger links between Flourish/Fiction Alley
>and Flourish/Heidi. She was the impetus for FA.Org.
She knows how to do web design really well which is surprising for a girl of her age. She had a website called alohomora.com and it was really well designed. She brags about it most of the time and that's how she got to work with John (also does web design, like his livejournal) and others. But I think she's a bit too young to partake in web activity like FA.org. They need rational, and older, people to do those web things.
I may be wrong but I've heard that FA.org let stories in that really slammed on my individual self. Is this ethical or even legal?
>Massive suckage. I think their problem is that they
>have offended so many people that their actions are
>being so heavily scrutunized for stuff that people can
>report THEM for because I can think of TWO people,
>probably closer to three or four who I KNOW reported
>them.
I've also wondered about their sponsors, don't they have Warner sponsoring them now? I really didn't see anything but I remember looking on H.T.'s lj that Warner Bros let them advertise WB on FA.org. I might be wrong.
>Oh... I pictured her as sort of tall and brunette and
>skinny and.. sort of like a Georgia from Ally McBeal
>type character...
Yep, and they all picture John as the the muscly looking Hagrid when he's really an obese guy who clutches his chest when he walks one block in NYC. That's the consequences of not really having a life outside of HP besides school.
>My dealings with her have been hypocritical? I get
>told two different things at different times and well,
>yeah. That's it. I don't know how to view as other
>than the worst type of hypocrit for not acknowledging
>her hypocrisy. Orginally she told me that fan fiction
>WAS legal and then she said after the CC plagiarism
>thing went down that it wasn't so what did plagiarism
>matter?
That's Heidi, she's always defending CC but yet saying plagiarism is bad. She even told me I mispelled "gavel" and said I meant to "grovel to us". It's like she wanted me to beg and plead to come back in the club, but NO WAY!
>I agree. I just think that while we give them those
>options, we should have alternatives for the younger
>set of fen out their who aren't yet ready to be
>exposed to that... (If I was a parent, I wouldn't
>want my kid reading at FanFiction.Net with out sitting
>right there.) Creating an archive to supplement the
>fannish stuff out there with just g rated fic would do
>that. You wouldn't have to force them to go there.
>You would just know that if it was there, you'd only
>read fics that were pretty much nonoffensive. It
>would make fen look good because it says "We care."
>and say "We know about your concerns." All in all,
>very good publicity for fan fiction writers and make
>us appear less sex obsessed. Plus it would give
>writers that were younger a chance to perfect their
>craft and give more erm conservative or older writers
>a chance to post their g rated fic to an audience that
>would be extremely appreciative of that material.
Or like on FF.net they had that sign that would show up whenever it was a NC-17 fic, "Click OK if you're 18 and older"? But it really didn't deter under 18s from looking at them.
>Of course, the actions they usually take doesn't
>surprise anyone who really have an idea about them.
>Their victims, like me, are usually surprised that
>they had taken action upon them (for something they
>didn't do). I've seen people leave and not come back
>precisely for that reason because they're irrational
>about things. For example, CC had called Ca Cole an
>anti-semite because she only brought up the formation
>of Israel as a controversial subject and CC ran to
>tell H. T. (who's Jewish) to get her against Ca Cole.
>The club has evolved from when I first joined to when
>I was initially kicked out. Even when someone
>innocently mentions my name (even if it's not related
>to me), like one time on the PoU list earlier this
>spring, the HPFGU admins threaten to kick them out.
>This has changed the attitude of a whole lot of people
>and they've also started leaving because of HPFGU's
>attitude towards me.
I was bad. Some one was saying they were a lawyer and having a crappy day, I posted the following:
----- Original Message -----
From: heiditandy
To: veelainc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 6:43 PM
Subject: RE: [veelainc] Re: OT: Another Home for Stray Fanfic
|I am a copyright and trademark lawyer, so I know full well what can
|happen when people accuse authors of having read their work and
|incorporated it - and given the pushing fifty thousand HP fanfics out
|there, it's impossible to think that among them, there's inclusion of
|some things that will happen in Book 5, I think that's a pretty lame
|excuse.
Wow. Interesting... I heard that FictionAlley.Org got busted for trademark violations for their use of Harry Potter stuff on CafePress? And Lord of the Rings? I thought you knew about that as a trademark and copyright lawyer, enough not to do that... Are you sure you are because you know, if you really were that, you'd know that you were violating stuff... but if it was legal, then wouldn't that material have stayed up? You could have defended that for free and created nice fan precedent.
Not really so negative... a little... maybe... but you know... for a lawyer who specializes in that sort of thing...
To make a long story short, I'm apparently no longer a member of that list. Go figure.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: New fan fiction archive, and misc. -- Quoth the Raven, 09:35:08 12/28/02 Sat(NoHost/203.212.144.73)
>Even when FA
>was just formed, I didn't understand how the
>submission worked. I still don't, I have not seen a
>clear explanation on FA, but I haven't seen the
>website for a while as I'm trying to stay far, far
>away from them.
I'll admit that the FA submission process can be confusing for a newbie - or even someone who's done it before (trust me, I know) but it isn't so bad. I rather like FA - drop in there once a week. It's not perfect - no archive site is, especially one designed to hold all types of fic and ships - but it's good.
>Constructive crit doesn't exist in C's world. Even if
>you criticise her gentily, like "You know there's a
>little thing lacking" her fans will descend upon you
>like boll weevils.
**giggles** Is it impolite to say that I love that description? Because I do.
>I'm trying
>to stay as far away as I can from them because they're
>dangerous and certainly hell bent on ruining lives.
Nah, it's actually quite a nice place now. At least, that's my personal opinion. **shrugs**
>They try to get around things by using
>C's Secret Diaries (which reminds me of Bridget
>Jones's actually)
I thought that the Secret Diaries were supposed to be a spoof on Bridget Jones? ...don't tell me, let me guess. She didn't give credit, right? Probably assumed that everyone would be like me and automatically recognise the source material and see it as a homage. Or she hoped that those who did recognise it would give it the charitable interpretation that I gave it.
>and using lines like "Pervy Elf
>Fanciers" on their t-shirts, it may sound funny but
>she's been doing the secret diaries thing for so long
>it's gotten worn thin.
She's started a second lot now, I think, based on The Two Towers.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
FD.Net is new -- Laura, 20:08:02 09/10/02 Tue(dialup-63.208.71.14.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/63.208.71.14)
>I've never heard of fandomination.net before. I'll
>have to give it a look see. It'd be nice if it lives
>up to what you're saying about it.
It's new. It just went public about two weeks ago... I'm not that comfortable with ActorFic and RPF but so long as the people involved haven't said no, then we're hosting it and MSTs. Book based fan fiction only if the author has said Yes.
>I looked at it some more and just joined up. Do you
>know as of yet what authors have approved of fans
>writing stories based on their works?
All the ones listed are okay. If some one wants to add another book category (aside from this star wars issue involving books which we're currently staff wise debating since that is a different situation), they have to find out the author policy and tell me, forward an e-mail from the author, or ask me to contact the author. JK has said she's flattered by it and mentioned it several times in a positive light... so anyway, that's kosher. ( http://writersu.s5.com/law/policy.html is a list of all policies that I am aware of.)
>and what is ActorFic? RPF?
ActorFic and RPF (Real Person Fic) are stories based on real people... So if you write a story about say... *ew* ummm... Julia Roberts and Matt Damon having a relationship, that's ActorFic..... I find it really squicky and possibly offensive but a lot of actors know about it and DON'T care. If they don't care, well, I see no problems with the person doing it. It's more legal than "normal" fan fiction from what I've read as it is afforded more rights and more clearly so.
>It's new. It just went public about two weeks ago...
>I'm not that comfortable with ActorFic and RPF but so
>long as the people involved haven't said no, then
>we're hosting it and MSTs. Book based fan fiction
>only if the author has said Yes.
I like the fact that book based fan fiction will require author approval. But I have ethical problems with MST's and Real Person Fic.
Will the MST's require the permission of the original author? I'm not that fond of the concept behind MST's as there seems something inherently hateful about the line by line tearing apart of someone else's work. You want to be an editor, fine. But the editing process isn't meant to take place in a public venue. Being 'cute' about it doesn't help much. But if the original author says 'go ahead', then who am I to object.
My opinion of Real Person Fic still hasn't changed and can be found elsewhere on this forum.
>Will the MST's require the permission of the original
>author? I'm not that fond of the concept behind MST's
>as there seems something inherently hateful about the
>line by line tearing apart of someone else's work.
>You want to be an editor, fine. But the editing
>process isn't meant to take place in a public venue.
>Being 'cute' about it doesn't help much. But if the
>original author says 'go ahead', then who am I to
>object.
MSTs that are percieved as attacks on the author and total flames will not be tolerate because that isn't the point of MSTs. MSTs can only be of fan fiction and they need to link back to the story OR have author permission to MST the fic. (The link back is so the author can find it if they have a site like say freeservers which shows you where people come from or a tracker which acts similarly.)
>My opinion of Real Person Fic still hasn't changed and
>can be found elsewhere on this forum.
Yeah. I know. If the person says it's fine though (And I can think of several people who do) then I still can't see why it isn't a problem. If some one e-mails me and asks for something to be yanked, it will be.
>
>>Then I read it again, while I was reading Hitchhiker's
>>Guide to the Galaxy.
>>I probably would have caught on earlier if I had a
>>television.
>
Can anyone tell me which part of Hitchhiker's she was plagerising from? Also, I think it's sad that she felt she had to copy in order to have a good fanfic. I read the first in her series and didn't think it was very good writing. Some of her sentances didn't seem to flow as well as others. I know why know
