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Date Posted: 03:54:05 12/05/08 Fri
Author: domi
Subject: Re: Privateers french private war
In reply to: Albert Parker 's message, "Re: Privateers" on 09:02:00 11/27/08 Thu

Hello

About De Lage (but there are other exemples)
the crew was paid by the crown on the "disarmement base"
and De Lage had to give the "sea bonus" to the crew
and had to indemnised the wounded and killed

De Lage had selected his own officers

the prizes had to be selled by the official services
and the bonus was divided between the crown and the privateer on contract bases

De Lage had a strong squadron with a 74 and a 50. So he could fight the escort
and free the way for his chasers, light frigates


there are other cases of private war vessels, armed by commercial groups "chambre de commerce" for escort duties or habor protection (small fishering, coastal trade ...)
No letter of marque was needed because it was only defensive purpose

>I think there is some confusion about terminology,
>possibly because of different practices in different
>countries. I believe that there was an body of
>international law, at least in the Atlantic, governing
>warfare at sea. There might have been formal treaties
>that remained in force during declared wars, and there
>certainly seems to have been a set of understandings
>among European governments. For example, it was
>understood that prisoners of war were not to be
>executed, were to be fed by and at the expense of the
>capturing state, etc.
>
>I think that it might help to think about a
>two-dimensional classification of armed ships at sea,
>asking two questions: Was the ship built at the
>expense of the government? and Were the officers and
>crew paid by the government?
>
>Built by government: YES
>Crew paid by government: YES
>These were the purpose built warships being used by
>the "navy," the government department organized to
>monopolize violence at sea.
>
>Built by government: YES
>Crew paid by government: NO
>I have only encountered this arrangement in France.
>From time to time, the French navy had more warships,
>designed as such and built at the expense of the
>government, than it had money to outfit and pay crews
>to man. In both the War of the Spanish Succession and
>the War of the Austrian Succession, private
>entrepreneurs were allowed to use these vessels, fit
>them out and pay crews at their own expense, and go to
>sea to prey on enemy (British, mostly, but including
>Dutch in the WSS) merchant shipping. I don't know
>what the terms were--whether the private individuals
>paid a fee or just shared their profits with the King.
> At least in the case of de Lage de Ceuilly's squadron
>in the Mediterranean in 1746, the naval conscription
>system (inscription maritime) seems to have
>been used to obtain sailors, as if the ships were
>still in navy service; but the costs were borne by de
>Lage, not by Louis XV. I'm not sure that there is an
>English term for vessels of this type. They had the
>motives of privateers but especially in the WSS they
>sometimes acted like navy battle squadrons, attacking
>the ships of the line escorting major convoys, as in
>the Batttle of the Lizard. An odd example of this
>type of arrangement was His Most Christian Majesty's
>Ship Elisabeth, a ship of the line of about 60
>guns that was fitted out by Jacobites at Nantes to
>escort Prince Charles Edward Stuart (the "Young
>Pretender" or "Bonnie Prince Charlie") to Scotland for
>the nationalistic Scottish revolt known as "The '45,"
>and to carry money and weapons for the rising. When
>Elisabeth and the smaller, faster, and more
>weatherly, but weakly armed, vessel in which Prince
>Charles was embarked, encountered HBMS Lion,
>58, Elisabeth and Lion fought a bloodly
>drawn battle that enabled the Prince to continue on to
>Scotland but required Elisabeth to return to
>France, denying the Prince most of his money and
>munitions.
>
>Built by government: NO
>Crew paid by government: YES
>This category includes various hired private vessels.
>The British navy used this type to obtain large
>numbers of smaller warshisp quicker than it could
>build them. In the 17th century, this category had
>included medium-sized ships. At that time, they might
>be hired with their merchant officers and crew, a body
>of government-paid soldiers or artillery experts and
>gentlemen officers being put on board to serve the
>guns, provide small-arms fire, and ensure that the
>civilians followed the orders of their admiral. By
>the 18th century, the British government usually just
>rented the hull, with no crew, and put on board
>officers and seamen just as if the vessel had been a
>purpose-built warship. An example from the War of
>American Independence was the Countess of
>Scarborough, consort of HBMS Serapis in
>escorting the inbound Baltic Convoy in 1779, and, like
>Serapis, captured by the squadron of John Paul
>Jones in the Battle of Flamborough Head.
>
>Built by government: NO
>Crew paid by government: NO
>These are what I have always understood were meant by
>the English word "privateer." Ken has described the
>requirements these vessels had to meet to avoid being
>classified (and their crews prosecuted) as "pirates."
>Note that to be a privateer, an armed vessel had to
>meet two basic requirements: (1) It could only attack
>vessels registered to or flying the flag of a
>government with which its own government was in a
>state of formal declared war, and (2) It had to
>have a license to do so issued by its own government.
>If either of these conditions was not true, the
>vessel and its crew were pirates.
>
>It's not at all clear to me whether the vessels
>described as Russian "privateers" in the Black Sea,
>17878-92, were really privately-built vessels with
>privately-padi officers and crew.

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