I've always thought he meant Dianne, as she was murdered in "SKELETON CREW" that's when you found out they were seeing each other. -- The HarmyBoard Portal

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Date Posted: 17:04:44 07/24/08 Thu
Author: Michelle UK
Subject: I've always thought he meant Dianne, as she was murdered in "SKELETON CREW" that's when you found out they were seeing each other.
In reply to: doc 's message, "Who was Harm talking about?" on 10:53:34 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> Actually, they weren't seeing each other. Harm said in "Skeleton Crew" that he & Diane were just friend. He said they always played by the rules, and they were going to get together that weekend to decide about pursuing something more. Obviously, the "something more" never happened. It wasn't until later seasons that Harm spoke of a deep caring & ultimately loving Diane. It was as if her loss, made him believe there was something more. (inside) -- doc, 18:13:41 07/24/08 Thu

In other words, he seemed to "build" their relationship up in his mind post her loss. It was almost as if the fact that they could never "be," made him believe that they "were." If that makes sense???????

It's kind of like with his father. Harm built his father up in his mind to be this nearly perfect man. I'm not saying that Harm, Sr. wasn't a good man, but he wasn't perfect...he was human! Harm never seemed to see the "human" side of his father until after the Jenny Lake episode, and subsequent to that the introduction of Sergei. I think it was the introduction of the concept of a "human & fallible" man that allowed Harm to finally move on. He wasn't always trying to live up to the image that he had of his dad. He was free to finally be himself, and in my opinion, he was a better man than his dad. Again, I'm not saying that Harm, Sr. wasn't a good man, but that he was "a man."

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[> [> [> I agree doc, but I will take it a step further and say that Harm Sr. wasn't a good man. Good men don't cheat. That's pretty basic. Especially right after they talk about their wife and child to the woman they're about to cheat with. It's not like he wasn't thinking or that Trish was far from his mind. He just got it on with Jenny Lake because he felt like it. What an ass! -- Theresa, 19:57:35 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> Excuse me--just have to get my two cents' in (inside) -- highplainswoman, 21:36:08 07/24/08 Thu

Good men are human--and war, especially conflicts like Vietnam, and now, Iraq and Afghanistan, will make good human beings act in ways they wouldn't consider under different circumstances!!

When people make "judgmental-type" of statements without having "walked the walk" (in this case, in all likihood, not having served in any capacity in the military in any circumstance), in my mind, they display a remarkable ignorance in understanding both human behavior AND the nature of war--not to mention rather shallow thinking!!

In this case, I'm not sure about Jenny Lake and how to make that particular judgment call; however, Harm Sr., in living with Sergei's mother, was grasping at whatever happiness/hope--or even will to live after being a POW for those many years. As was stated in "Legacy" (and I don't remember which part), Harm Sr. had very little hope and/or chance of ever getting back home to Trish in the United States--stuck in Siberia!!--in the middle of the old Soviet Union, without citizenship papers or proof of identity. And being an American, especially during that time period of the cold war, the odds of him getting home were slim to none!! The Soviets would have made darn sure of that!! So--was Harm Sr. "wrong" or "evil" or "bad" for seeking what little comfort he could get in the remaining years of his life???

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[> [> [> [> [> Did I say anything about Sergei's mom? No, I didn't. I get that one. What I don't get is a man telling someone about his wife and child and then sleeping with another woman in the space of a day. And if decent people can't make "judgement" calls on what's right and wrong, then I guess none of us could ever really make promises or vow to do the right thing by our spouses, because unless we've stood in the shoes of a cheater we can't say that it's wrong to be one. Well you know what, that's just crap. -- Theresa, 22:25:31 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Some of us aren't totally convinced that Harm Sr had sex with Jenny Lake. They could have talked all night, because he was still worried that if he left her alone, she might make another attempt to kill herself. --

nancyeddy, 22:33:33 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree. I could make an argument either way. I personally am glad they left it ambiguous, so we could believe what we want. -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 22:37:00 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Okay, I'll ammend my statement to say "supposing that Harm Sr. had sex with Jenny Lake..." Though his kissing her doesn't really make him that great either. -- Theresa, 22:38:09 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I really gave this some thought(geez, I need to get a life) Let think in practicalities. Where would they have.....done the deed? Whatever anyone thinks of Harm Sr. infedelities, etc. He appeared to be a compassionate person who had just pulled a young woman away from suicide. I cant see him doing a long slow...s###w against the wall(er bulkhead) There was just nowhere for them to be together like that. Holding her, kissing her would be something he could break away from if anyone approached, I dont see how he could have really done anything more involved than that. -- mkim So thats my story and I'm sticking to it., 23:26:37 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> I am so against cheating, that it is one of my absolutes, or near enough. Can you hear a "however"? Yes...there is a however (inside.) -- Cece, 21:34:44 07/24/08 Thu

Good men and women are not defined by perfection. They are defined by how much they try to live their lives being honest, trustworthy, kind, generous, helpful, brave, loving, caring, understanding, and avoiding deliberately hurting others. They are defined in they way they treat others, particularly those who are the most vulnerable.

Good men and women make mistakes, and have regrets. They own their wrongdoings, and try to make ammends.

Good men and women don't make a habit of doing wrong deeds. Those deeds are the exception, not the rule.

I am an atheist but I will point to Christ's teachings. First, he was tempted and had to fight temptation. Second, he told the people who wanted to stone the prostitute, "Let ye who have not sinned, cast the first stone."

Harm Senior first set out to comfort Jenny Lake. In that moment of fear and lonliness, they turned to each other. Did they have sex? We don't know. We know they kissed. Perhaps Harm Sr. lived his life in regret, or perhaps he knew he would go no further. We don't know.

As for fathering a child with another woman, I hated that story at first. But HarmyBoard Ann, gave a very understanding and convincing argument about the conditions of the gulags during the cold war. We don't know what Harm Sr's state of mind or body was. All we know is that he suffered and could not have been happy never to be able to return home.

Perhaps he realised that Trish and Harm would have new lives. Either way, he could not have done anything about it as there was no way of getting out of that terrifying life.

Was Harm Sr. a good man? There is nothing else, other than a kiss at a weak moment, and his turning for comfort to another woman, when he was weak and close to death, to suggest that he did not live a good life. He did not make a habit of kissing other women, and he would have most likely stayed with Trish for a lifetime had he had the opportunity.

I hope that I am never in a position where I am a political prisoner-- tortured, denied any human rights, kept away from those I love, and worked to death. I hope my goodness and humanity will never be tested in that way. I am not certain that I'd pass the stoning test.

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[> [> [> [> Well stated, Cece. -- Lee, 22:06:08 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> Again, I'm saying nothing about Sergei or his mother, that's a different situation than finding "comfort" in the arms of another woman. It's wrong, it's a bad thing to do, and it's not something that I forgive. Do I have to? No, I don't. I can't look at any cheater and say that they are a good person. Do I think he should be stoned in the town square? No. I'm not casting stones, and I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm saying he made choices on purpose that don't make him a good person. And isn't it judge not lest you be judged? Fine judge me, I've never cheated. -- Theresa - Assuming Harm Sr. slept with Jenny Lake., 22:34:50 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> Okay, I'm confused...in my post, I stated that Harm, Sr. was a "good man," just not a "perfect man." None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes & have faults. My point was that Harm, in his mind, elevated his father to the point of "near perfection." It was when Harm was faced with his father "humanity" that Harm was finally able to let go & live his own life, on his own term. I still contend, in "my" eyes anyway, that Harm was a better person than his father. Harm's ability to constantly put other's needs above his own proved that, at least to me. -- doc, 21:58:22 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> My post was supposed to be under Cece's, not sure how that happened. By the way, I'm also not saying that Harm loved his father less, just maybe idolized him a bit less...perfection is a high bar to pursue. -- doc, 22:03:50 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> I agree with you doc. I was answering Theresa's assertion that Harm Sr. was "not a good man." I truly believe that Harm saw his father as more human. We dehumanize people when we make them into saints or monsters. I believe that Harm saw in his father, the idealisation of a child, as most of us do. As Harm didn't grow up with his father, only the ideal, that perception was shattered by Jenny and by the existence of Sergei. I think that Harm came to understand his father in adult terms, which allowed him to finally let go of the ideal. -- Cece, 22:20:57 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> I agree, Cece. Harm is not a perfect man himself, and I think discovering his father's mistakes helped him relate to the man in a way he never had before. -- lska, 22:50:45 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> I'll agree with you there doc, Harm was a better man than his father. -- Theresa, 22:37:03 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> Theresa, you are an adorable friend. But we often disagree. I think that is because you still have the light and optimism of youth and I am old, sere, and wise....LOL. -- Patronising, and a tad drunk, Cece, 22:49:53 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> It's the Irish in us. We have to clash. It comes with the blood. We also often agree. It makes things interesting. Oh and you're adorable too, and sweet and cuddly just like my Irish mom. Though I agree with you MUCH more often than I agree with my mom. -- Theresa - Patronizing right back, but not drunk., 22:52:56 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Also, (and here I admit to being naive,) I honestly never thought he and Jenny had sex. The logistics made it darn near impossible. -- Cece, 22:54:16 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's because your Mom loves Taylor Hicks!!! An unforgivable sin...lol. -- Cece, 22:56:31 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Should have read this post first, Cece. Great minds think alike. -- mkim, 23:39:36 07/24/08 Thu

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[> [> [> [> As I said above, I'm not sure if Harm Sr and Jenny Lake actually "did the deed" or not. But, even if they did, I'm with doc. One single act of indiscretion, even one as repulsive as adultery, should not be used to define a person. There are many "good" people who have terrible things in their past. No one is good all the time. Inside -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 23:00:41 07/24/08 Thu

I have a male family member who cheated on his wife. She was pregnant with their second child when it happened. His father talked some sense into him, he realized he was ruining his life, repented, begged her forgiveness, and they have been happily married ever since. (Their children are now 42 and 38). He was a good man before this happened, and he is a good man now. He did something despicable, which he deeply regrets and has to live with for the rest of his life, but I wouldn't call him anything less than a good, decent man. I hate what he did, but I love and respect him for making things right.

This family member didn't have a pattern of cheating, and neither did Harm Sr, so I wouldn't say they are not good men. As far as we know, whatever happened with Jenny Lake was an isolated incident. I'm not even going to put Sergei's mother in the same category. I read a fanfic where Harm Sr's torturers showed him the newspaper clipping of Trish and Frank's wedding. If he had been made aware of that, I would certainly understand his behavior after that. Years had gone by, Trish had apparently "gotten over" him, he probably assumed Harm Jr had gotten over him as well, he had no hope of getting home, he probably felt that returning home would only open old wounds unnecessarily, and with all the physical injuries, he probably felt that his days on earth were numbered anyway. Good for him that he found a little bit of happiness in what was probably a miserable state of being.

I know this was more about Jenny than Sergei's mother, but I wanted to post my thoughts on both since they were both brought up.

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