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Date Posted: 11:20:55 08/07/12 Tue
Author: Araninda
Subject: Measure of Men

Real life threw me a curve last week, so I've been off the Board. But I'm back and the last two Harmy Award presentations, plus a wrapup, will be posted soon. So say tuned. And thanks for your patience.

In the meantime, I am posting a video clip from Season 7's "Measure of Men". This is one of the most confounding scenes, in my opinion, in the entire series. Mac is on temporary assignment at sea after the end of her engagement to Brumby and after standing in the rain seeing Harm and Rene embrace. Harm comes to the ship to defend a client but also to try to talk with Mac. But in this scene, they don't quite connect.

Click here to play clip in your media player

Click here to download clip in zip format

Take a few minutes to watch this clip and post your thoughts about this scene. Our interest in the Board, sadly, is dwindling so let's get some discussion going. If you can't download either format, it's the "Measure of Men" scene on your DVD where Harm comes to Mac's cabin to talk.

1) Who was right and who was wrong in this scene?
2) Did Mac have a need for someone to give up something for her? Harm asks in response if Mac is testing him. Was she? And why did Harm have to think about whether or not he would give up Renee?
3) Harm asks Mac "what if I did" (give up Rene). But Mac doesn't directly reply to that, saying that she was sick of this dance (many shippers were too at that point!). Was she as confused about her feelings as Harm?
4) What should have happened in this scene?

Notice in this scene Harm's deer in the headlights and his obvious discomfort about talking about their relationship. Also, look close, CW makes an appearance!

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[> Am I the only one who saw the gorilla standing in the middle of the room? LOL I guess I'm with Mac on this one. As long as Harm and Renee are still together, Mac and Harm can't discuss 'us'. Ironically, Renee has already dumped Harm and has hooked up with Cyrus as Harm finds out later. This whole arc was designed just to rip out our shipper hearts. -- Lee, 12:13:48 08/07/12 Tue


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[> Hope all is well with you and yours, Araninda! I think because it's summer -- people are away or busy with kids home -- but board interest is still here!!! Let me start trying to answer 1. I thought Harm was not so much 'wrong', but 'wimpy'! inside -- mj, 12:18:20 08/07/12 Tue

After what happened when Mac came to his place and Renee was there -- that was a bit 'excuseable' although I thought Harm still should've let Mac in that night and, at least, given her a great big hug and told her how much he loved her and wanted to work things out -- but just not yet as Renee's Dad had just passed away. At least, Mac would've felt 'wanted' and the physical contact would have gone a long way. She was cold here, yes, but imo, in 'protective' mode. Harm should've come in, looked her smolderingly in the eyes, and said he loved her -- period!
2. Mac probably DID feel like Harm always and only wanted her when, on his time and terms, so, yeah -- she wanted to hear him say or get the feeling that he understood that a relationship went two ways and involved two peoples' giving up things for each other. Again, Harm gives a doofus response! 3. By the time Harm very curtly says 'what if I did' Mac had tuned him out. He was vague and wishy-washy and mac was sick of it -- I certainly was!
4. Harm should have been direct, loving, and made mac understand CLEARLY that he wanted them to get together. I know he couldn't take her in his arms, as they were in uniform and on the carrier, but he should have stated that that's what he wanted to do -- hug her and BE THERE for her and ONLY her! He should have said that as soon as she finishes her tour of duty, he would be there, waiting with open arms and heart to love her like she deserved!

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[> Yes there is still interest--see inside for my analyis and comments... -- Shazam, 01:13:18 08/08/12 Wed

1) Both could have handled this better. Yes Mac ran,but IMO in this scene Harm was the one who "wimped out". He took the initiative to start the conversation he should have had guts to say what we all know he came to say.
2) Mac answers this in the final episode when she says, "Well they wanted me and they let me know it." Mac was unsure of herself in relationships she needed something from him to prove that he was willing to commit--have some skin in the game so to speak. I'm sure from his perspective it did feel like she was testing him and he felt like that was unfair after all they had been through together. I think Harm's hesitation wasn't so much giving up Renee as much as it was being scared of what saying "yes" meant.
3) Harm answer of "what if I did" was a vague yes, and her response of "answer the question" was an indirect way of saying "man up and give me a straight answer for once!" Mac wasn't confused she was frustrated with Harm and with the constant interruptions that kept intervening.
4) What should have happened in this scene? When Mac asks "Would you give up your girlfriend?" Harm should have replied emphatically and without hesitation, "Yes!" while looking Mac in the eyes. She would have been stunned into silence not expecting that answer. Harm would then said,"Look Mac I don't love Renee and we both know it, but I am not going to break up with her over the phone from halfway across the world. I want to give us a shot, but we have case to finish and we can't do this here. But when we get off this boat you and I are going to talk, no phone calls, no interruptions, and no running!" Then Harm leans over kisses Mac on the cheek and starts backing out of her room. As he ducks out he raises an eyebrow and a points a finger at her and says, "No backing out on me Marine." Then the rest of season 7 is them having that talk and starting a relationship. Season 8 finishes with them getting married and the series ends on a high note sparing all of us the agony of seasons 9 and 10.

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[> [> i am in love with your analysis here, Shazam. Right on the money. -- Dee, 06:54:49 08/08/12 Wed


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[> [> Great analysis, Shazam. If only it had happened this way... -- Lee, 12:31:11 08/08/12 Wed


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[> Sorry for all the typos and grammer mistakes in my post., it is late here and I clearly need to go to bed! -- Shazam, 01:16:14 08/08/12 Wed


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[> Agree with the other comments but would just add that I think Mac was in self-preservation mode here. (more inside) -- Dee, 07:25:45 08/08/12 Wed

She could have been a little more patient and encouraging, but she was hurting, she felt alone, and as mj said, what she really needed a CLEAR message (for once) from Harm about how he really felt about her. She needed him to speak up. If she had gotten that clarity from him, she would have opened up as well. Harm wimped out - as Shazam said, he knew what he was there to say and he just couldn't come out with it. Poor guy - you could see it was tearing him apart as well but he just couldn't overcome his fears and grab the bull by the horns. I so agree with Lee - the point of this whole arc was to frustrate shippers! I am watching Season 7 of the show (for the first time) right now (although I have a loose idea of the joys (!) and horrors that the later seasons have in store for me), and I just keep thinking how lovely it would have been if Harm and Mac could have started slowly working on the relationship they both wanted at this point in the show's life. They were both hurt, recovering, healing in many different ways and they needed each other but just couldn't make it happen.

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[> I hope all is well with you Araninda. The boards were always slower in the summer, even in JAG's heyday, but there still seems to be a lot of interest in the community. (Inside.) -- Cece, 19:39:02 08/08/12 Wed

I'm sorry I haven't been around. My summer has been unbelievably hectic, and then I had to go to Ontario to see a very much beloved relative who was ill, and I was there when he died and at his funeral.

I will try to get to the board more often. Hopefully, my other problems will lighten up a bit. (I know my HB friends are wonderful, but please let this post be about the JAG questions and discussion. I'll write about the personal events at the Lifestyles board a little later.)

Take care Araninda, and don't lose heart. You are still much appreciated.

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[> Just a drive-by thought.... -- The Chief, 09:57:23 08/09/12 Thu

"Self-preservation mode" for sure, Dee.

But I also think that Mac was still trying to figure out who she was. For so long her life had been defined by the fact that she was a recovering alcoholic and a Marine. Outside of that, she wasn't really well-acquainted with the woman under those labels. "A great career, a good man and comfortable shoes" is easy to say, but it took a lot of personal heartache (breaking up with Mic, her endo/fertility issues, etc.) to force her to look at what she REALLY wanted and who she REALLY was.

Deep down, she always wanted to be a wife and mother - and have it so much better than her parents did - but her alcoholism and career didn't mesh with that. And her experiences with her parents was like Bud with his - fear of becoming just like them.

So I think, if she had been paying attention to her deepest heart's desires, she should have told Harm, "look, I can't really talk about this now or I'll never be able to do my job effectively. Catch me in a few months."

Then again, she didn't know Renee was history, so she probably thought Harm was being a bit of a cad, too, to be approaching her about "us" while he was still (to her knowledge) already part of an "us" with another woman.

Yeah, it's a pretty confusing time for both of them, crossed signals, incomplete information, fear and hesitancy. They were such a MESS then! But still lovable!

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[> Wow, this is the first JAG scene I've looked at for 5 yrs. I'd forgotten just how sexy this couple could have been. This is simply the most nonsensicle scenario in a non-relationship that we were asked to swallow. Come on! (Inside) -- Cece, 20:58:47 08/09/12 Thu

How can we even discuss it sensibly. Who would deliberately get posted to carrier, just to talk to a potential girlfriend about the non-us, and then ask questions like a 10 yr old. "You first....no, you first" sort of thing.

And what woman with a grain of self-respect would ask a man if he was willing to give up his present girlfriend to have her? How can the answer be "No...I'm not willing to give her up." And how come there is even a conversation when Harm hasn't yet broken up with Rene? Was he using Rene as a fall back plan? His answer was contingent on Mac's response, and that is just not classy or mature. Of course she walked out. He had to think about it?

As far as I can see, Harm made a career out of giving vague, obscure, responses. In fact, we could have a whole post on things he said that we couldn't figure out. (Actually, that would be a fun exercise.) No wonder Mac was sick of the dance. In fact, if this relationship were a dance, it wouldn't be a passo doble, a samba, or a walse. It would be an irritating jig, or maybe, a danse macabre!

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[> [> I laughed out loud at this answer! ITA -- haha! Is it any wonder why HAE was sick of Harm, too! -- mj, 03:57:01 08/10/12 Fri


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[> [> [> I agree w/you Cece. -- Laurence, 04:47:01 08/10/12 Fri


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[> [> For Cece and those not very familiar w/french language : in french exists the notion of masculine/feminine. ' Ren ' stands for men & ' Rene ' stands for women.It always ' weird ' for me to read ' Ren ' instead of ' Rene '. Sorry.I'll come back later to participate . -- Laurence, I hope it's ok to post this ( ' Laurent ' is the masculine version of my given name), 04:55:29 08/10/12 Fri


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[> [> [> Of course it's okay to post this Laurence. Actually, I've no idea why I suddenly misspelt Renee's name. I do have enough of an idea of French to know the difference, and I've typed Renee a zillion times on the HB. Thanks for the correction, Laurence. -- Cece, 10:54:36 08/10/12 Fri


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[> [> LOL an irritating jig or danse macabre for sure. I had the most hilarious mental picture of Mac and Harm dancing a silly jig in uniform when I read that still chuckling. And I like the idea of post on things Harm said that we couldn't figure out (inside). -- Dee, 09:20:52 08/10/12 Fri

I totally agree with you that Harm was very childish here after all the trouble hed gone through to get to Mac. The emotional immaturity and crippling fear he displayed was extreme. The audience is generally willing to suspend a certain amount of disbelief, but TPTB went way too far here.

Im not 100% sure I agree about Macs question displaying a total lack of self-respect (although God knows she had lots of issues in that area) I think the question was sarcastic, not sincere and/or hopeful. She flung it at him in a way that suggested to me that she already knew what his answer would be more hesitation, more hemming and hawing. Maybe thats why she walked away so quickly when she got just that. She could tell he still wasnt ready to talk about his feelings and where he saw their relationship going, and I think at this point shed convinced herself that he was probably never going to be, and she felt like she really didnt have the time just then to listen to him waffle some more. Maybe she could have given him more of a chance, but then again I get why she didnt as I mentioned before, self-preservation.

You may be right about Harm keeping Renee as back-up, but I think it was unconsciously done, because at this point, he probably wasnt thinking about Renee at all which is just as bad, really. If he stopped to think about her at all, it was probably just well, Ill deal with that when she comes back from her hometown or I cant end it right now, shes grieving. If hed gotten the green light he wanted from Mac though, I think he would finally have ended things with Renee. Lord knows why he was still waiting for more signals from Mac anyway, instead of just, finally, biting the bullet, telling her how he felt, and seeing how things went from there.

As things went, since he didnt get those positive signals from Mac, he just left things hanging with Renee, figuring, perhaps, that theyd just fizzle out on their own. Which in itself is kinda crappy, because knowing (especially after the Admirals porch and his accident) that he didnt love Renee, and that their relationship was on the fast track to nowhere, he should have broken things off with her anyway (without waiting to see where things went with Mac) it wasnt cool to just maintain the status quo when he knew his heart wasnt it there was that one-on-one game with Sturgis (a couple of episodes after this one I think) where Sturgis asks if Harms got a woman (or something) and Harm responds, shes got me. I know it was meant to be jokey or whatever, but really, Harm? Its almost as though he thought it was somehow ungentlemanly to break things off with a woman throughout the show, he was always the dumped, not the dumper, right? Definitely backfired in Renees case.

Yeah having typed all that out, I realise that trying to figure the whole thing out is unsatisfying, because as you said, it just strained credibility too much. This whole arc was frustrating, twisty and vague, no thanks to TPTB its a testimony to the actors skill and the characters that were already developed and established much better in the earlier seasons that, as The Chief said, Harm and Mac still manage to remain loveable at this point of their danse macabre LOL.

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[> [> Your response, like the others, was way more thought through than mine, Dee, and I agree that Mac did have self respect. I mispoke there out of frustration. When I was watching JAG every week, I went along with the suspension of disbelief, a) because I was a die-hard shipper, b) because I kept thinking it would all make sense eventually, and c) because I had no choice. I loved Harm and Mac, period. But now looking back, I want to yell at TPTB, check out Castle et al, and grow up. It's okay for two wonderful, not to mention HOT, characters, to have a relationship, and to speak directly, at least once every 10 yrs. (inside). -- Cece, 11:15:58 08/10/12 Fri

These characters were vague and ambiguous up to and inclucing the last 7.5 minutes.( Please a coin flip??) IMO, there was no excuse for that kind of prolonged, sloppy writing, particularly as the writers were capable of good writing in other areas of the show.

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[> [> [> You're so right... the writers could've done so much better and they ended up doing a disservice to great characters and a sizeable chunk of the show's fans. (inside) -- Dee, 13:15:31 08/10/12 Fri

Because I didn't watch JAG when it was on, it's so fascinating to me to read about how fans (especially shippers) dealt with all the curve balls and long drawn-out teases they got... it must have been quite the wringer!

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[> [> [> [> Oh I hope that my ranting doesn't ruin it for you. I should be grateful that TPTB gave us so much to discuss (and very often, fight about.) All in all, it was great fun, and now I find it interesting to hear how new viewers are seeing it. -- Cece...still loved JAG., 16:52:17 08/10/12 Fri


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[> [> [> [> [> Oh no, not at all! I find it all really interesting - I'm loving it. -- Dee, 17:31:37 08/10/12 Fri


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[> All I have to say about this scene is that Harm has the habit of going into a situation without a plan. And this shows here too. The giving up comment was very basic, "would you give up your girlfriend?" That's natural in that situation. How could she trust what he would say if there was still a relationship with Renee' in the way? -- Theresa, 21:52:58 08/13/12 Mon


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[> Well, I'm really late, but here are a few quick thoughts. I think when Mac asked Harm if he was willing to give up his girlfriend, she wasn't necessarily looking for an answer. It was really more of a statement reminding him that he still had a girlfriend and it wasn't her. That's why she walked away so quickly. Inside -- JJ Ronda, 22:26:54 08/15/12 Wed

I think Harm didn't answer right away because he was trying to come up with a nice way of saying "Of course I would or what would be the point of me coming out here and having this conversation?". Too bad that's not what he actually said, because his hesitation had the opposite effect.

The gorilla was obviously in the room. Too bad he wasn't blocking the doorway!

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