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Date Posted: 00:04:48 06/12/09 Fri
Author: jan
Subject: I pretty much agree, Cece. I've always felt that after Paraguay, after the unresponded-to messages, Mac felt that Harm was gone from her life, probably permanently. Lonely and despairing, she would never have been interested in Webb but for that and the horrific experience they had shared. In a way, she may have felt that he was all she deserved. I also think that she knew the relationship would never go anywhere and she would have broken it off long before she did, but for not wanting yet another failed relationship on her plate.
In reply to: TH 's message, "Some comments on today's airing of an episode that's usually in the top twenty, if not top ten" on 20:10:32 06/11/09 Thu


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[> [> I meant to say - long before his "death" that wasn't 'died and gone to...' -- jan, 00:06:59 06/12/09 Fri


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[> [> Mac was definitely working out her issues with Harm through her relationship with Webb. The line that stands out to me is at the end of TILAM, when she says to Webb, "If you push me away one more time when I say I need you," or something along those lines. That was all about her history with Harm. She needed someone to be there, and for reasons both his fault and hers, Harm just wasn't there at the time. He could do the hero thing to save her, but he couldn't be there for her as her man. For all of Webb's issues, he could. -- lska, 16:37:23 06/12/09 Fri

Going out on a limb... I don't think their connection was very deep, but I also don't think it was just desperation or loneliness. I think they began to see each other in a new light in Paraguay, before it all went south. The bed scenes Mac flashed back on were rather sweet, although hard to watch as a shipper.

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[> [> [> 1ska, I thought the sex scenes between Webb and Mac anything but "sweet." (Inside.) -- Cece, 18:43:57 06/12/09 Fri

Being a shipper, I obviously had a bias. However, I tried to look at the scenes from a distance, as if these were just characters I had no interest in. The first time we saw Mac with Webb in a sex scene, it was so needy and sickening. I hated that they put Mac in such a non-romantic, non-loving sex scene. It was reduced to semi-porn because it was clear they were using each other.

I actually found TILAM one of the most interesting, for various reasons. But the sex scene made me feel repulsed....that urgent desire to look away. I believe that was deliberate to show where Mac's head was at the time. Compare her lack of joy, with the incandescent happiness we could see on her face in the last scene of FWAFS, when she saw the love of her life waiting for her. The first scene was sleasy, the second, sublime.

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[> [> [> [> Webb certainly wasn't the love of her life, but then again, how many sex scenes did we see with Harm and women who weren't the love of his life? How many would you call sleazy? I'm not saying I thought she and Webb were in a healthy relationship, but even in unhealthy relationships, there's often a lot of caring. Mac/Webb wasn't built to last, and they were loaded down with issues, but I don't think they were simply using each other. -- lska, 19:50:36 06/12/09 Fri


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[> [> [> [> [> I can't recall seeing many Harm sex scenes except with women he loved: Annie and Jordan. I just never believed Mac loved Webb. But even that wouldn't have mattered. It was the context I found sleazy. Btw, I was a huge Mac fan, so don't look at this as Mac bashing. -- Cece, 20:25:55 06/12/09 Fri


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[> [> [> [> [> [> I don't think it's Mac bashing, just different POVs. Harm/Jordan in particular wasn't any deeper a relationship than Webb/Mac IMO, although it wasn't as screwed up. There were also a few sex scenes with Renee -- can't remember how many because it's been so long, lol. (I'm not saying that was sleazy, either, just that there was a fair amount of sex on this show that didn't happen between soulmates.) -- lska, 21:56:36 06/12/09 Fri


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh I know...though imo, there weren't enough sexy scenes. I guess you could say that Mac and Webb were dating, but the relationship was joyless and manipulative and made neither of them happy. They were chasms apart. Mac and Mic were engaged. Harm dated Jordan for about 6 months and really seemed to care for her. Jordan was in love with, but not sure of, Harm. Renee dated Harm for about 1 1/2 yrs, and Harm had loved Annie before she married his bf. They were real relationships. -- Cece, 22:37:23 06/12/09 Fri


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Did we actually ever see Harm in bed with a woman? I still shudder when I think about Webbs pasty chest with his one chest hair. LOL IMO that relationship was born out of a desperate need to connect with someone, anyone after a horrible event. There was nothing sweet or romantic about it. It was about two totally emotionally (at the time) disfunctional people who shared a tragic experience. I think that relationship was used to point out that Mac was suffering from something deep down and it was huge red flag tha she needed help. -- Trish...just my opinion of course., 22:47:37 06/12/09 Fri


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I don't think we ever saw Harm in bed with a woman. Annie was hinted at in Someone to Watch Over Annie and that was in really poor taste as her son was sleeping on the couch and Harm only had those louvers between there and the bedroom. Jordan was shown in a nightgown or robe a few times at Harm's place but never actually in bed with him. Renee and him were getting pretty hot and heavy on the couch when Harm got the call to go to Cuba in Florida Straits. Inside. -- Jeanaz8, 12:34:09 06/13/09 Sat

The only time Harm was in bed was when Mac came out of his shower in the towel and morphed into Renee who set on the side of the bed in Retreat, Hell. It was hinted at with Harm but never actually shown as it was with Mac and Webb. Mac was never even shown in bed with Bugme who she was engaged to.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> IA that Harm loved Annie. IMO he cared about Jordan and Renee, but didn't really love either. I have an especially hard time calling his relationship with Renee functional. He enjoyed her on some levels, but he'd backed into the relationship and got stuck. There were periods of time when I felt like he was using her. It seemed like both Harm's and Mac's relationships got ever more dysfunctional as the series went along. -- lska, 16:52:30 06/13/09 Sat

But just as Harm cared about Renee, I think Mac and Webb were caring for each other the only way they knew how at the time, given their other issues. It was a darker relationship because neither was in a healthy place. And I feel the need to point that Harm and Mac's relationship was also highly dysfunctional while this was going on, just minus the sex. Harm seemed more interested in nursing his wounded pride than really seeing what was wrong with friend, and Mac was barely holding anything together. She and Webb helped each other cope, as much as they could. And they were actually able to have a few relationship discussions, something it took Harm and Mac a lot longer to accomplish. I just have a hard time seeing that as sleazy.

JMO -- probably not going to get anyone to agree with me about this, LOL. :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm trying to find who called the Webb and Mac scenes sleazy. I'm not seeing it. Help me out here. LOL -- Trish...my eyeballs are failing me., 17:25:12 06/13/09 Sat


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Look again at Cece's first post in the thread. -- lska, 17:30:38 06/13/09 Sat


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> See my below post. I found it. Thanks though. -- Trish, 18:04:00 06/13/09 Sat


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Any time! -- lska, 14:13:25 06/14/09 Sun


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[> [> [> [> Never mind...found it. LOL -- Trish, 17:26:53 06/13/09 Sat


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