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Date Posted: 21:36:48 03/21/08 Fri
Author: Ann
Subject: Retrying post on Mac, Harm, and PTSD

A new study came out this week in the Journal of the American Medical Association about PTSD and the connection between having been abused as a child, having a certain gene, and getting PTSD as an adult. IF this is the case, then it explains why Mac got PTSD after Paraguay and Harm didn't.

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/mar2008/nimh-18.htm

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[> Very interesting study. I'll bet the JAG writers didn't know about the connection between abuse during childhood, certain genetic make-up and PTSD, but it seems that there is a connection. -- Lee, 21:56:27 03/21/08 Fri


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[> It can also be explained by the fact that she went through more than Harm did. Starvation, imprisonment, fear of torture, seeing people's head's blown off right in front of her etc. -- Theresa, 21:58:50 03/21/08 Fri


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[> Thanks, Ann. The argument of nature vs. nurture is more often presented in many diseases and conditions today than previously once methodogies to find, study, and test genes improved. For Mac, her 'resiliency' would also seem to be improved if she had a strong genetic component to her PTSD to bounce back from all of her traumas in life. The proverbial 'double-edge' sword! -- mj, 10:22:26 03/22/08 Sat


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[> Thanks for reposting, I wondered what you had learned. It definitely explains Mac's behavior and as Lee has pointed out, the writers couldn't have known this when developing the episode. Theresa makes a good point in her comments as well as to how much Mac had to endure in comparison to Harm. In one aspect it lends credence to why Harm wanted to table their "talk" when he did, but as we know, once again the "gorilla" got in the way. It also explains Harm's resiliency after the ramp strike and maybe even his imprisonment in China. Inside. -- Christa, 10:34:13 03/22/08 Sat

Those would all be other topics of conversation, but thanks for helping us with some additional insight into our beloved characters.

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[> [> Inside... -- Ann, 11:24:48 03/22/08 Sat

Christa, I'm glad you brought up those traumatic events in Harm's life. I don't want to get into a side-by-side comparison of traumatic events for Mac and Harm (that way lies a huge battle here, IMO), but there is no doubt in my mind that both Harm and Mac underwent enough traumatic events in their careers (at least that we saw on-screen) to trigger PTSD. And given both characters' tendancy to keep things to themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if both didn't have some issues with PTSD. Certainly, Mac reacted much more strongly to many events, including the psycho hunters in Full Engagement. This new study linking both childhood experience and genetics does make a lot of sense. Who knows - maybe the writers were psychic.

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[> [> [> Inside -- Christa, 11:32:37 03/22/08 Sat

I totally agree. Definitely not trying to start a huge war, just saw parallels between the two. I'd forgotten about the poachers and her response, guess I attributed it to the moment (having to kill the man and almost being raped and killed herself) definitely would fit the PTSD senario. Thanks!

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[> [> Don't forget that pilots undergo training to deal with capture and interrogation. We don't know if the CIA gave Mac that kind of training. Since it was Webb's operation, I doubt it. -- TH, 12:10:14 03/22/08 Sat


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[> Just a quick reply (and I didn't read the link), but I thought Mac's PTSD was a result of her being a prisoner, almost-tortured, etc, and not having as much "combat" experience as Harm. And possibly Harm had better coping mechanisms. -- The Chief (not trying to stir anything up, but I think these factors are valid in the discussion, as well), 11:50:04 03/22/08 Sat


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[> [> Does she have less combat experience than Harm? I thought it was the other way around as he was usually in a jet and then on a carrier while she was on the ground in the thick of things. During the wars she was involved in, the women were right there on the line with the men. Don't the Marine's train for combat more than the Navy trains their pilots? Just wondering. -- Theresa, 12:25:09 03/22/08 Sat


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[> [> [> Combat isn't just on the ground..... And from what we've discussed over and over around here, Mac spent much of her time in admin posistions before becoming a lawyer. TRAINING for combat isn't the same as being IN combat. And from just what we saw on 10 years of the show, Harm spent more time with a gun chasing and shoot at (and being shot at by) bad guys. (don't forget season 1) -- The Chief, 15:32:22 03/22/08 Sat


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[> [> [> [> That's true, Chief. But Mac had time in Bosnia - on the ground. I'm thinking any time in a war zone isn't the same as time stateside, even for an admin. And we also saw that Mac was a much better shot than Harm. But I doubt the writers had any knowledge of the link between the environment a person is raised in and PTSD. I think Mac got it because she was female, and they all considered women as less able than men. -- NanaSue, 16:21:23 03/22/08 Sat


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[> [> [> [> [> Webb got it, too, but TPTB never really considered him a man's man. I think the truth is that they wouldn't give their hero that kind of perceived weakness. Just like we joke about how they made Mac infertile to stave off the baby deal, but would never in a million years give Harm the same problem. -- lska, 19:26:16 03/22/08 Sat


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[> [> [> [> [> "Mac was a much better shot than Harm"??? I don't remember that. Was there a "shootout" in the handgun range in the basement of the Pentagon that I missed?? And Mac's "time on the gound in Bosnia" was never fully clarified as far as I can remember, either. According to her timeline, that has been researched and studied by her ardent fans, I don't remember her having more time in combat than Harm. -- The Chief - I still think her PTSD was a result of less adequate coping mechanisms, stemming from unresolved issues surrounding her alcoholism., 15:59:40 03/25/08 Tue


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[> [> I would agree that Harm has better coping mechanisms. He held on to some things from his childhood and young adulthood for a long time, but seemed to cope well with the things that happened during the series. I wonder about combat experience, though, because I would tend to think that more of it would make you *more* likely to get PTSD. If it was a deterrent, none of the soldiers returning from Iraq would have PTSD, and unfortunately we know that isn't the case. -- lska, 12:30:57 03/22/08 Sat


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[> I don't know about the comparisons of combat experience or training between Harm and Mac, but wasn't one of the points of the JAMA article re: ability to experience and/or rebound from PTSD dependent on whether there was a history of abuse during childhood which Mac had and Harm did not. Wasn't that one of the main reasons that Mac was more affected than Harm if we are making the assumptions posited in this article? -- mj, 14:06:35 03/22/08 Sat


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[> [> The reason Mac was more affected than Harm was because Mac went through hell down there in Paraguay. Harm didn't go through anything that would give him PTSD. I never even considered that Harm would have any issues with PTSD because of Paraguay because he didn't go through anything. He went there to help get Mac and Webb out and only through Gunny's help was he able to find them. Mac and Webb went through horrible things while captured. -- Amy, 21:13:27 03/22/08 Sat


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[> [> [> Well the plane crash sucked, but for Harm he'd been through worse. Other than that, he didn't have anything happen to him that would cause PTSD. Mac was put through the wringer. -- Theresa, 22:32:37 03/22/08 Sat


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[> [> [> [> Inside... -- Ann, 23:23:28 03/22/08 Sat

Actually, Harm went through lots of things that can cause ATSD and PTSD in Paraguay. Not as many as Mac, perhaps, but enough. He too watched Sadik kill the missionaries; he watched as Mac was led into the room to be tortured; he had to kill a man with his bare hands, and he had the plane crash. That said, people who get PTSD tend to get it after experiencing a traumatic event and not getting the right debriefing shortly thereafter. The other thing about PTSD is that it often follows not the first trauma, but the "straw that broke the camel's back" trauma. And Harm certainly experienced lots of things that can cause PTSD in people over the years. (his youthful trip to Vietnam, China, ramp strike, crash in Adrift, held hostage by Palmer in his apartment, etc.) Being a witness to traumatic events can cause it too.

The point of my post - and the JAMA article - is that some people are more likely to experience it than others, and Mac fits the profile of people more likely to experience it. We have no idea exactly what she experienced prior to going to JAG; presumably mostly admin jobs given that it was never brought up in the show as backstory other than a brief mention of being in Bosnia for a year. 3 of her years in the Marines were spent in law school, for instance.

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[> [> [> [> [> Harm didn't see the missionaries get killed his view was blocked, he only saw Mac standing there. Mac was led to a room, but Harm didn't know what was going to happen to her in there and he got there before anything happened. Harm killed a man, but he killed a few people over the years of Jag and it never afftected him. And he's had many many issues with plane problems and crashes and he always gets up dusts himself on and gets right back in the cockpit. Interesting info indeed, as it would pertain to Mac in Paraguay, but nothing to do with Harm in Paraguay. -- Amy, 00:38:37 03/23/08 Sun


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[> [> [> [> [> Yes, Ann, I agree with you and my point is that we DO KNOW that Mac experienced abuse during childhood and Harm DID NOT and that was brought out in the research presented in the JAMA article as being a pre-existing factor in determining whether PTSD occurs and the severity of the PTSD REGARDLESS of the severity or the extent of the stress-causing events experienced in adulthoood. That's all I was trying to say. -- mj, 10:14:37 03/23/08 Sun


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly, mj. -- Ann, 12:55:54 03/23/08 Sun


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[> [> [> [> Exactly Theresa. -- Amy, 00:40:34 03/23/08 Sun


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