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| Subject: Re: No Shame In This Game | |
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Author: Mike Norrod Author Host/IP: 67.177.152.140 |
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Date Posted: 11:06:02 02/26/06 Sun In reply to: FTJ 's message, "Re: No Shame In This Game" on 20:14:06 02/25/06 Sat >My point regarding the "extinction of OFRN" is based >on the printed information in Mullin's review. As far >as what came from Ireland in color or purpose is >another subject. John, sometimes I don't believe to are comprehending your reading correctly. Nowhere in Mullin's review does he state the strain of OFRN is extinct but he does with the "breed" from Ireland Old Family Reds. This is one thing I've tried time and time again to drive home with people. Old Family Reds from Ireland is NOT the same as the strain OFRN. One is a strain within a breed and the other is a breed of dog. >I do believe that many "fit" dogs >came from Newburyport, Ma through the hands of John >Colby,[many imports of many colors]. It has been stated many times publicly by Lou Colby that Colby dogs do not come Red Nose. John P. Colby help get the AST recognized by AKC and the first 9 dogs registered, if I am correct were from their stock from ADBA registration. One of the things AKC don't except is red or dudley nose dogs. Colby was not using UKC. Lou Colby's Dime wasn't "PR" bred. Most of the history of their dogs were of Great Britain dogs, not of Irish imports. >There also were >other men from different parts of the USA that had a >part in distributing and using dogs that came into >this country as well. But John Colby in my opinion >stands out among the rest during that particular era >and introduction of the pit bull in this country with >a specific purpose.William Lightner, Con Feeley,J.P. >Colby, D.A. McClintock, Dan McCoy, Harvey and Owens, >Ferguson, Ferrel, Conklin, Anderson, Bourgeois, >Plemmons, Dickerson, Hanson, Williams, Roberts, Cole, >Leo Kinard, Ed Crenshaw, Joe Beal.... WTF! John come on! John P. Colby didn't introduce the APBT to this country!! I was here 100 years before he owned his first dog! If you mean because he is considered the biggest peddler of ALL times of the breed, under those terms, that is correct. But he wasn't the largest or even close to the first to import the fighting dogs from Europe. "D.A. McClintock, Dan McCoy, Harvey and Owens, >Ferguson, Ferrel, Conklin, Anderson, Bourgeois, >Plemmons, Dickerson, Hanson, Williams, Roberts, Cole, >Leo Kinard, Ed Crenshaw, Joe Beal...." Where in the world did you come up with this list of names as importers? NONE of these people imported dogs from Europe! Many didn't even know each other because they were from different eras. >The story has it that Bob Hemphill decided to work >with Lightner blood, "high caliber".With the aid of >Dan McCoy it was understood that a Frenchmen who lived >in Louisiana had Lightner blood clean and good. "High >caliber". Extremely successful in "preserving" the red >nose blood [Lightner]. Well I'm sure you know how the >account continues. That is true but by the time Jake got them 40+ years later, many crosses were added to the bloodline which created Geronimo & Dixie. >Those dogs that Bob Hemphill got back in the 1920's, >were not ill tempered nor were they man biters? Is that a statement or a question? Gee since I wasn't around then nor did I personally ask Bob that question of those dogs nor have I read it about them back then, I couldn't say. All I can tell you is what I saw 40+ years later and YES they were! >If so >why would he refer to looking for Red Nose dogs as >being of "High caliber"? Why would he [Bob Hemphill] >except Red dogs from a person who had less to offer? >[Bourgeois] Bill Lightner was considered to be a >"great breeder", would he allow misfits to go out of >his yard? I don't think so. The genetic flaw of ill-temperedness is in all bloodlines. Now did Bob Hemphill have man bitters? YUP! Geronimo like to have killed Jake at one time. Mauled the hell out of the old man. Do you really think you are going to change things by trying to debate this? Are you really trying to dispute this well known fact that many people alive today knows this to be true about those dogs? John, this IS a fact you are going to have to except because it is a fact! Many of these dogs have attacked people and mauled them. I have gave you many names of people to speak to who also was around at that time. Get up off your ass and research the facts with the people who knew. Don't sit there and try to theorize some self gratification to explain this away or trying to debate an argument that this never happened!! >According to Mullin's account there were several good >Red Nose dogs that came "up front". Centipede and >Williams Red. Others were known for producing quality >dogs. There was a very brief period when Red Nose dogs >made an acceptable mark, then later dropped by most >fanciers for the bigger, better dogs. No that isn't what he said, Mullins said "Lightner" thought the Red Nose dogs were getting to big for his taste and "Lightner" went on and was successful with a strain of black nose dogs. >The "Old Family Red Nose" that are extinct today come >from the dogs, people and time era mentioned in >Mullin's account or review. No, he says the breed of Old Family Reds were extinct. >As a matter of fact he >never uses the term "Old Family" in that review when >referring to the Red Nose dogs that came down from >J.P. Colby, Lightner, Bourgeois, Hemphill, Harvey and >Owens,Ferguson and Wallace. That is because they weren't Old Family Reds from Ireland. They were APBT! >Dan McCoy begin the cliche >"Old Family Red Nose" simply for identification >purposes to distinguish, obviously one group of red >nose dogs, from perhaps another? No not from one red nose group of dogs from another group of red nose dogs because there was NO other red nose foundation breed of dog ever bred to create the American Pit Bull Terrier breed! The term was created to identify the strain of dogs with in the breed from other strains!! Are you comprehending any of this? I've explained this many many times before. >So Mike, in this sense no one has those type of RED >DOGS today. Not the breed of Old Family Reds imported from Ireland but many still have the strain of OFRN of the breed of APBT! >In past post I have said, "What we see >today is a version of what it use to be, but not the >real deal". You are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong as many other new comers have come around and tried to clarify the history of the creation of the breed or a strain. >Those Red Dogs of the distant past were >not loose cannons, nor were they bred for being just >"crazy game". Loose cannons? WTF were do you comprehend this stuff from? How are you able to conceive this from a statement? BTW the only reason they were bred was for the reasons I stated in the pass. If not they were useless for the purpose for sporting dogmen and they were the only ones who owned the breed back then. Not like the Pet Bull owners of today or wannabe breeders who plays spinmasters and try to fabricate some kind of history to justify their sales pitch. >In most cases they demonstrated the >entire pit bull and have been recognized by a very, >very few as the epitome of the true game pit bull. Well you talking to the wrong person on that opinion because I'm one who don't cotton to shit talkers and will scratch on a dime when my dogs have been referred to in a derogatory way. >Friend to man, never lose or give up in any challenge >of mind or body. Never have. Never will........ >Those old breeders of pit bulls, I doubt would breed >to crap. It violates intelligence and science. J. P. >Colby was so good at producing above average dogs that >he was able to support a family of 8. No one ever said they did, don't put words in people's mouth. I hope you don't judge the success of a breeder by how much money he made peddling dogs and pups because John P. Colby was far from being the best breeder of all times! BTW they also had a a farm and did farming for an income. >Today his line >represents 100 years of Colby heritage, both in the >dogs and as a honorable family. HOLD UP A MINUTE! I get where you are coming from now. You truly don't believe the Colby line of dogs is the quality or standard of stock John P. Colby had, do you? When John died and after the boys came back from the war the line had almost died out. Mike (Alexander) I met once around Chicago, and his family had to bring dogs back from the Southwest and Ca. to restock the yard. Many people like Jack Kelly, owner and Editor of SDJ, and others feels the stock was never the same. I believe history has proved that. >No fast lane, hard >bitin dog can beat that, even though the Colby line is >talked down by many so called Mr. Know it alls, it >still stands on its own merit and is being used by a >few folks. Remember this is because no matter who tries to say anything different, this is were the truth lays, "Proof is in the performance", the rest is just hype. If Bill Lightner had family continued to peddle at the rate the Colby family has, then the Colby family wouldn't have been the longest peddling family in history? Are they the best producing bloodline today? Not even close! "Proof is in the performance"!!!!!! > Like the pedigree I posted. Red Nose >Family/Colby. It didn't post for me, can't say but the only way to know for sure, prove it or it is just hype from talk. >Just for your record, I am not OFBA. My dogs are not >OFBA. One of my foundation bitches is from OFBA. >Primarily, OFBA COPPERHEAD, along with a few others. I know you are not and neither is Lano. He was just "Johnny Come Lately". We all read your posts and from the posts I recall it was suppose to be exerts from a up coming book from OFBA or you? >My line is "John Dogs", color don't matter but it >helps genetically to determine which way the breeding >wave is headed. No John color does not. Personally and instinctive traits do. Breed a line of dogs long enough and you will understand to recognized throw backs and their traits. >I don't know how so many people are of different table >manners when it comes to recognizing certain Red Nose >Family? My thought is that sometimes people go crazy >when they can't get what they want from these dogs.... Can't say about that. I have personally gotten what I wanted and intended from the strain. I understand the strain completely by proving my line with us and others around the world. I've always respected others opinion who has done the same. 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| Subject | Author | Date |
| Re: No Shame In This Game | Mike Norrod (67.177.152.140) | 11:07:16 02/26/06 Sun |