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Date Posted: 20:38:26 03/17/04 Wed
Author: JRGNYR
Subject: What's wrong with HC athletics

All the thoughts I'm about to jot down here came to my mind in the last few minutes, so please excuse the scatterbrained nature of this.

I was thinking about something Father Brooks said. It's so mind-boggilingly archaic, and what's even more surprising is apparently it's still the rule of thumb today for the athletic department.

To paraphrase if I may: "The role of the HC athletic department is not to entertain."

If I may be blunt, this is total BS. Is entertainment the sole reason for an athletic department's existence? Of course not. But anybody who doesn't realize the role college athletics has in the very fabric of our society, from a national to a local level, is deluding themselves.

Humans inherently want to be entertained. Cable TV. The internet. Movies. Music. We don't think about why we have these things, but what it comes down to is A) information, and B) entertainment. People go to concerts for a variety of reasons, but when they hand over their money for a ticket, they're basically saying "Here's my hard earned wages. You'd better entertain me for the next few hours."

And so I ask, is it any different for college athletics? No, it isn't.

At the level HC competes in its top three sports (basketball, football, and now arguably hockey), there are different groups of fans who attend the games. You have the family and friends of the players, you have the diehards, and you have the people who are looking for something to do on a Friday or Saturday night, and instead of going to a movie or going out to dinner, they spend their hard earned money on a ticket. Why? Because to them it's entertainment. The audience here is mainly made up of casual fans who will come and go based on the competitiveness and success of the team. They're the X factor, the variant because the friends and family of the players and the diehards will always be there. And in order for an athletic department to successfully market itself and make money, it has to recognize that it is an avenue of entertainment for the general public.

I have not spoken directly to any member of the athletic department, so I may be presumptuous with my statements regarding their business strategy and how they go about making money. But I don't think I'm too far off when I say that alumni giving and the endowment are only going to go so far in funding the athletic department. In an age when business savvy is increasingly important and marketing strategies are often the key between profit and loss, it seems almost inconceivable that a Division I athletic department would seemingly eschew its role as entertainment.

Whether the athletic department realizes it or not, they compete on a nightly basis with other activities and variables. Hot new movies. Concerts. The weather. Whatever. Each game has to be turned into a can't-miss event, and frankly I'm discouraged the athletic department and the folks who do marketing at the College don't seem to understand that.

Now what does this all have to do with the Patriot League? Well, if recent history is any indication of the future of the basketball program specifically, Holy Cross isn't going anywhere, so we have to make the best of the situation. That means we have to encourage the other programs to become more competitive, and progress is being made. Bucknell, Lafayette, and Lehigh are programs on the rise now. HC had an off year which was bound to happen, but with the parity setting up in the league, HC (or any team) could find itself with a 26-4 record going into the NCAA tournament next spring. Anything is possible, and that's why they play the games, as they say.

We have to encourage the other programs to move up and surpass Holy Cross (and in a lot of ways they've already done that). I went to the HC/Lehigh football game last fall, and it felt like an event. I'd be willing to say that since HC's win over Fordham in the last home game of the 2000 season, there has not been a game at Fitton that has felt like an event.

HC has got to better market itself, but if the College doesn't understand the role of athletics as entertainment in our society, then the programs sadly will be tied to the archaic and anachronistic notion that nobody comes to the games for entertainment. If the College can update its viewpoint, then the programs won't necessarily need to move to the ECAC in hockey or the A-10 in basketball to grow.

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Replies:

[> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- bikeman, 21:00:48 03/17/04 Wed

HC in the A-10 in football and basketball. Then we're talking regional rivalries, increased local and national media and a true desire for wanting to attend the games. PL games cannot and will not ever be events. Didn't you see that game last night? ugh! If HC were to join the A-10 not only would the league schedule improve dramatically but you would see the big non- league teams come to town more often. Notre Dame at the Centrum, Uconn, etc. Remember The Worcester County National Classic? How about Ohio State at The Hart? Those were events. People camped outside the fieldhouse waiting for ticket sales to begin.
IT WOULD HAPPEN AGAIN!!!!

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[> [> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- jon, 21:27:55 03/17/04 Wed

football in the a-10?? good luck. what would happen to the academic standards of holy cross??

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[> [> [> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- Sader81, 22:37:54 03/17/04 Wed

Why is that the consideration. HC could still have a fine reputation, and be the best academic school in the A-10; like Stanford is in the Pac-10, and Vandy is in the SEC.
Who made the rule that we only have to play like minded academic schools???? Speaking of that, I noticed on last night's Lehigh game that they have an enrollment of 4600 students; better than 50 per cent higher than HC's. The playing field is not level inso far that the % of athletes is lower at other PL schools than it is at HC.
It is all a lot of poppycock; either you play to win and you set yourself up to make yourself more competitive. HC is not currently doing so by remaining in the PL. HC can do so without selling out the academic standards. I have nothing but utmost repect for Father Brooks, but he was wrong on this. It is time to cut our losses and get with the program, or drop sports altogether and become a college full of intellectuals who are not worth our time, or financial support.

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[> [> [> To: jon -- Rick, 13:12:50 03/18/04 Thu

Something wrong with the academics at Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova ?

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[> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- TS1970, 22:59:26 03/17/04 Wed

I think what Father Brooks said was: "Holy Cross is not in the entertainment business." True. Holy Cross is in the education business. But are not athletics part and parcel of education? Did we not all take physical education in school, albeit not at the higher education level.

No matter how he said it, I still think Father Brooks's decisions as to the role of athletics, especially as to basketball at HC, were the wrong decisions for the college. He may have been misguided and unduly influenced by narrow-minded outside forces, yet I would never question that he had anything but what he believed at the time to be the best interests of the college at heart.

Nevertheless, the entertainment factor cannot be divorced from college athletics. They go hand in hand and always have.

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[> [> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- cf rivals, 00:15:57 03/18/04 Thu

One of the biggest problems is the question posed above"What will happen to academics?" The answer is NOTHING!!!TAKE OFF THE TRAINING WHEELS!!!

With a better league comes more exposure, more $$, and athletes who recruit you and not the other way around. This all equals a stronger student base, because HC is a household name and more people want to be part of it.

If the administration is staying in the PL because they are afraid that they would fall apart academically if they went into the A-10, then the academics at HC are a farce and they are afraid to be exposed. I know that is not the case. HC will always have high standards for all who enter, so why can't they trust their foundation?

I'm sorry, but the PL will never grow in athletic respect in BB. It is now clearly at the bottom of D1. Two programs are D2 or D3 at best. There is just no strength in this league and HC needs to see that.

The entertainment thing is also a joke. Why even sell tickets if it were not entertainment? If that's the case, close the Hart Center and have the ganes at the field house on weekends so nobody misses class and family and friends can attend.

I have no attachment to the school other than I got hooked on them when I was in grammer school and have been a fan ever since. The problem is , there aren't many like myself out there. I look at the games as entertainment, but I know countless others who don't go, but would in a minute if a game or two were at the Centrum and the A-10 was home.

I know alot on this board are alumni and feel they need to defend HC to some extent and that's fine(I have for 20 yrs), but look at this situation and try to convince a non-alum that the PL is great BB and that HC is putting everything behind building top-notch D1 athletic programs.
They are not. If the administration sees nothing wrong with the PL and that's the best they want, (Don't knock the 200 @ Colgate because I can remember 6 yrs ago sitting with a few hundred at the Hart) I hope they don't complain when RW,
good recruits, national attention and the fans are gone!

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[> [> [> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- TS1970, 00:35:43 03/18/04 Thu

You are o, so right. I firmly believe there are hordes of loyal, Worcester area folks who have loved and rooted for HC for years and who would flock to HC games if the teams and competition were to be upgraded.

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[> [> Prostituting for HC -- Gate Raider, 00:38:52 03/18/04 Thu

It seems some of you folks have no limit on how much you would sell out HC for almighty BB. Listen, if you think academic standards wouldn't suffer to gain athletic superiority, you are just simply wrong. Look at the schools you want to compete with. None of them are at the academic level of HC. Further HC is already at the bottom end academically in the PL. As an example, Fordham, to improve its football program recently accepted a kid who got 890 on the SATS. Would you want to do the same for BB? Obviously, I'm a Colgate fan and want to point out that Colgate's academics are a good measure above HC's and we kick your butts in all sports except BB. We are about even in BB and soon 'gate, with scholarships, will be kicking you in that sport, too. I wish you would get into the ECAC in hockey. It would give you guys another reason to complain. Incidentally, the 'gate vs. American women's basketball game was sold out in Hamilton. If HC had better BB teams maybe yours would be sold out there as well. If you can't win in the PL, even with lower academic standards, why would you want to sacrifice more?

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[> [> [> COLGATE PIMP'S post is self-servng and fallacious. -- TS1970, 01:41:13 03/18/04 Thu


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[> [> [> Re: Prostituting for HC -- dadominate, 07:26:10 03/18/04 Thu

"We are about even in BB"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

"and soon 'gate, with scholarships, will be kicking you in that sport, too"

easy there tough guy!!! where did you get your crystal ball?

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[> [> [> [> Re: Prostituting for HC -- Gate Raider, 01:09:17 03/19/04 Fri

Regarding academic standards you can check US News to compare SAT's. Would you like to mention which recruits were turned away by HC only to attend Colgate? I am not aware of them. Colgate will be competitive with HC in BB next year. I don't want to wish ill for Fingleton, however, the type of injuries he suffers from are chronic, difficult to treat and can be aggrevated by further play. I believe you will have your hands full in the PL next year. Actually, I like HC but, get tired by all the complaints about the PL. I would like to see HC win, if Colgate doesn't.

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[> [> [> Re: Check out your Frosh -- Colgate superior academics, 07:50:34 03/18/04 Thu

Two of your most highly recruited frosh were also initially recrited by HC. They were not acceptable to admissions based on low gpas out of high school. Stop with the academic supeiority .

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[> [> [> [> Re: Check out your Frosh -- jon, 09:50:27 03/18/04 Thu

any proof of that???

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[> [> [> Re: Prostituting for HC -- BILL, 10:02:24 03/18/04 Thu

When will it ever end? Holy Cross looking down their noses at every school. The ivory tower image surfaces again.
The problem goes back to Holy Cross marching into the Colonial League with all scholarship players, at that time they should have adopted the NCAA rule dropped back two divisions and released their scholarships to be able to play for div 1 teams the following year.
The rebuilding would have taken two years and all would have been fair.
Instead they go to the Patroit League and then demand bb scholarships(first and only ones with scholarships for a long time)
The there is not a league right now that HC could move to and be competitive.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Prostituting for HC -- TS1970, 10:36:45 03/18/04 Thu

"The there is not a league right now that HC could move to and be competitive".

With reference to basketball, had you stated that to the people from Kentucky, Kansas and Marquette in 2001, 2002, and 2003, respectively, I wonder what they would have told you.

One off year since then, accompanied by the simultaneous loss of two scholarship players, Greg Richter and Neil Fingleton, to chronic injuries for the entire season for all intents and purposes, is only a minor bump in the road to continued success. I believe HC will soon be back with a vengeance and you will eat your words.

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[> [> [> Re: AT THE BOTTOM END OF PL ACADEMICALLY? -- Go...'gate, 13:39:17 03/19/04 Fri

HC posters, just ignore that statement, which is absolute garbage. Ths same attacks are being made on the Fordham board and are preposterous.

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[> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- Sader 2000, 12:41:22 03/18/04 Thu

The best course of action is continue strong recruiting and stay competitive within the Patriot League. As I mentioned before, this league and the Ivy League are the only ones with the same academic standards as us. If HC were to jump ship to the A10 or MAAC, we would get slammed athletically. We may be like Stanford or Vandy as far as being the best academic insitution in the league but those schools recruit nationally. The A10 and MAAC are Northeast based conferences, neither one would increase national exposure. Holy Cross is not well-known outside of New England, contrary to popular opinion. Having played football at HC, yes I wish we won more games, yes I wish basketball won more when I was on Mount St. James but the fact of the matter is that the schools in the Patriot League are on a LEVEL playing field. I know these statements might upset some of you. The academic standards at HC are going to get tougher not easier. Fr. McFarland wants the College ranked in the top twenty national liberal arts college. This is an achievable goal. Unfortunately, athletics may suffer because of this.

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[> [> To: Sader 2000 -- Rick, 13:49:27 03/18/04 Thu

" As I mentioned before, this league and the Ivy League are the only ones with the same academic standards as us. "

There appears to be some evidence via quotes from Dan Allen and Regan that this is not the case.

" If HC were to jump ship to the A10 or MAAC, we would get slammed athletically. "

You either have a very high appraisal of the A-10 and MAAC conferences or you have a very low one on Patriot level play. Didn't HC play a couple MAAC teams this year ?

" We may be like Stanford or Vandy as far as being the best academic insitution in the league but those schools recruit nationally. "

They do ? Check out the respective rosters for each. BTW, doesn't HC have kid's from California, Texas and Maryland ?

" The A10 and MAAC are Northeast based conferences, neither one would increase national exposure. "

Really....lemme see....Pittsburgh, Cincinatti, Dayton, Philadelphia, Richmond and New York City in the A-10 plus Buffalo, Baltimore, Albany and New York City in the MAAC versus Lewisburg, Easton and Hamilton in the PL !!!

And how would you reference the PL as regards 'national' exposure ???

" Holy Cross is not well-known outside of New England, contrary to popular opinion. "

No kidding ! You think this was always the case ? Obscurity in the PL has made us an unknown !

"....but the fact of the matter is that the schools in the Patriot League are on a LEVEL playing field. "

Boy, do you have some homework to do on finances within the PL....let alone the Ivy League.

" The academic standards at HC are going to get tougher not easier. Fr. McFarland wants the College ranked in the top twenty national liberal arts college. "

If true, I hope someone slaps him around and knocks some common sense into him.

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[> [> [> Re: To: Sader 2000 -- Sader 2000, 13:41:38 03/22/04 Mon

Holy Cross is better off staying in the Partiot League, playing against schools of equal academic standards and relatively equal athletic standards. I never said the Patriot League was a national conference. Holy Cross never was a national/household name and most likely never will be. The level playing field I was referring to was academics and athletics not financial. Holy Cross can win the Patriot almost every year it competes. And yes the Northeast (which includes New York and Pennsylvania...ever taken geography courses?) is the primary basis for the A-10 and MAAC. Even the Patriot has teams outside of the Northeast. Obviously there are some teams outside of the Northeast. And what is so wrong with wanting to be in the top 20 national liberal arts colleges? I'd put my education against anyone that went to Bates, Colby, Bowdoin, etc.
I'm sure you'll have some comments, Rick.

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[> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- Purple71, 13:41:01 03/18/04 Thu

"The A10 and MAAC are Northeast based conferences, neither one would increase national exposure. Holy Cross is not well-known outside of New England, contrary to popular opinion." That my friend, shows the weakness of your post. I believe that the Northeastern nature of either of those conferences would increase the exposure of HC beyond New England. The PL will never do that due to the lack of interst in D2+ BBall. A New York metropolitan exposure from the MAAC and a NY/Philly exposure from the A10 are reasons enough to go.

Either of those conferences would be an improvement, self serving declarations about academic superiority aside. I wonder what the percentage of HC frosh who did not get into either BC, ND or GTown is. Yet those schools are able to field competitive teams in hoop. In fact ND has a higher graduation rate for its student athletes than D2+ PL member HC.

No, the PL is not the way to go unless your ultimate goal is to be another Williams, which may well have been Fr. Brooks' goal. It is not mine.

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[> [> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- sader1970, 21:42:36 03/18/04 Thu

Rick, you know we've crossed paths before so it wasn't out of kindness that I didn't "spot" you, it was simply being too lazy to look back and see who made the post. I still haven't looked back but it sounds like you are saying it was you. I just didn't want you to accuse me of doing a good deed.

cf, my intent was to simply test the waters about the relative values that people on this board put on academics and athletics. I fully understand that neither case would actually happen - that's why I said "hypothetically."

I'm on record as conceding that strong academics does not preclude having a solid athletic program. But if you want to be the best in athletics, it's pretty hard to do without sacrificing some of the academics. The challenge, of course, is to strike the right balance.

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[> Informal Poll - Just for fun -- sader1970, 14:24:04 03/18/04 Thu

One poster above made what I thought was a derisive comment about the desire to get HC into the top 20 liberal arts colleges compared to the mid to high 20's position we've been in for the last 10 years or so.

Recognizing that this is, after all, a sports board, I'd be curious if people would answer this theoretical question. Here's the hypothetical scenario:

There HAS to be a change in Holy Cross' direction. The results are guaranteed. Depending on what actions are taken, Holy Cross will become:

1) Academically, the number ONE rated liberal arts college in the United States but sports are now played at a division 3 level.

or

2) Holy Cross wins the national championship in basketball and consistently becomes a top 10 rated team but is now the academic equivilent to St. John's University.

Which do you prefer?

(No, don't pick option 3 where we're #1 academically AND #1 in BB. There is NO OPTION 3).

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[> [> Re: Informal Poll - Just for fun -- cf rivals, 14:40:18 03/18/04 Thu

Why do you think HC will turn into a mess if they leave the friendly confines of the PL? It's rediculous thinking like this that is alive in the administration and some alums. The SJU analogy is crazy. Hello HC, you can leave the PL and survive? The school will not go into scandals! You may get better academically!

If thinking like this persists, go D3.

MAAC wins in NIT and NCAA's, PL not even in the dance.

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[> [> Re: Informal Poll - Just for fun -- Rick, 15:10:26 03/18/04 Thu

I vote neither....and it's o.k. to refer to me directly 1970....I don't mind.

And neither will EVER happen anyway so why the poll ?

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[> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- trimster, 22:49:37 03/18/04 Thu

I have never been a big fan of the PL, (I've come to accept it as I don't see any change on the horizon), but I think some have gone overboard with their bashing of the league in the last few weeks. All of this handwringing over the PL's effect on HC hoops wouldn't be happening if we could have mastered one of the basics of the game, shooting free throws. Last year's team hardly dominated PL games but instead, won many close games. One of the reasons for that was they were quite good at shooting free throws. This year's team probably would have won close to 20 games and perhaps another PL title were it not for abysmal foul shooting. It was an embarrasment and one that can't be blamed on the low level of play in the PL. I realize there were other issues such as the lack of an inside game but the glaring weakness of this team was its inability to shoot the ball, particularly from the foul line. The result is instead of being part of March Madness, we're on the outside looking in and it doesn't feel good.

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[> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- HChockeyalum, 12:39:18 03/22/04 Mon

Why all the ridiculous chest thumping about whether Colgate or HC or some other school is "better" academically or athletically? Why? Because of our collective adolescent inferiority complex, that's why. Gate Raider, among several others, needs to grow up. Whether we are alums of HC, Colgate or Fordham, we all went to fine institutions and received a top-notch education. Besides, Colgate is not "ranked" so far above HC that it really matters anyway. Anyone that puts much stock in a magazine ranking as a measure of their self-worth is in serious need of therapy. Yes, Gate Raider, people like you (I presume); you are a caring nurturer (I presume).

Father McFarland and the rest of the cabal who run HC or recently ran HC (Brooks, et al) are also in need of an attitude adjustment. A small school (like HC or Colgate or Fordham or St. Joe's)can be competitive, perhaps not every year, perhaps not in every sport, in national collegiate sports like hockey, basketball, and baseball (football, because of its exponentially different financial factor, is a greater challenge) without compromising the essential nature or mission of the college. Believe it or not, there are kids out there who are national prospects in hockey, for example, who would like to go to HC, for example, that go elsewhere because they get a full ride (Colgate, for example). While I believe that I understand the reasoning behind the Jesuits' emphasis on intellectual pursuits, why is it that such achievement can seemingly only come at the expense of competitive athletics? What value in a Top 20 "ranking?" McFarland seems to have the same obsession as Gate Raider. And for what benefit? Will a Top 20 "ranking," as opposed to the current ranking, make HC more financially stable? I suspect not.

As a former HC hockey player, I enjoyed the challenge of playing the very best Div. 1 had to offer. I am better for that experience. I hope that the college pursues the ECAC opportunity with the dedication that it deserves (ie, scholarships like they used to provide to hockey circa pre-1982) and then McFarland and Gate Raider and their equivalents at the Ivies can sip their sherry in each others' company and wallow in their insecurities that bubble just beneath the surface of their obvious intellect.

For everyone else who were enriched by their college education and still enjoy the sense of familial pride of an occasional national tourney appearance, let's all wish the HC hockey team well in its pursuit of excellence.

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[> [> Kudos HChockeyalum ! -- Rick, 14:00:39 03/22/04 Mon

One of the best efforts I've ever seen here !

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[> [> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- NTKHC64, 14:40:28 03/22/04 Mon

I'm tired of all the non-athletic posts these days and I would like phase out of the board until the fall. Some things in this post prevent that.

"Adolescent inferiority complex" may affect some who post here, but it is far from pandemic. I believe that I have gone beyond that phase/complex and I think the same of the majority of the alums who post here. As far as the remainder of paragraph 1 goes, I agree.

I also agree that having competitive and even nationally ranked teams in sports, not every sport, some years up, some years down, and maintaining HC's status as a "top-ranked" national liberal arts college are not mutually exclusive. On the "rankings" issue, I have heard Fr. McFarland say on many occasions that these, especially the USNWR rankings, are not that important to HC per se, but are important as they have become important to potential members of the student body. I've heard him comment on the various catergories that contribute to the ratings. He puts little weight on the "reputation" category -it is merely a mutual admiration society and college presidents actually solicit other presidents for support in this category. As I recall, Holy Cross does not do this. To say that Fr.McFarland is "obsessed" with ratings is at total variance with the many conversations I have had with him since he became president.

Rick in this reply and in his reply to me last week, seems to suggest that HC is trying to become an Amherst or Williams or Ivy school when this was something it was never meant to be. Perhaps I misread him. I'm no Ivy-type and I suspect, with no disrespect, that Rick isn't either. HChockeyalum seems to be of the same mindset as I read it.
I can do without the pretention but I like the increased quality of education.

There is no doubt that HC changed tremendously in numerous ways in the 38 years that elapsed between my graduation and that of my son. Academically it is a better school, rankings aside. Athletically it is better from an offerings and participation standpoint but quality is lacking in many sports.

Finally, I certainly agree with the last paragraph of HChockeyalum's note.

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[> [> [> Whether you like it or not -- Gate Raider, 16:05:30 03/22/04 Mon

School rankings are very important to attracting high quality applicants. Schools pay attention to the rankings not because they like them but because they have to. Since the whole point should be education, the goal, especially for the PL, is to attract top students. In turn, they try to attract top students who are also top athletes. What's desired is athletes that are representative of the student body as a whole and who can compete in the classroom as well as in sports. Personally, what I want in the PL are top studnets who are top athletes but put education first. They are not mutually exclusive. Such students are just hard to find and the competition to get them to enroll is intense.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Whether you like it or not -- kesiwick, 16:15:49 03/22/04 Mon

Gate Raider has it right

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[> [> [> Re: Raider and Kesiwick -- NTKHC64, 17:40:20 03/22/04 Mon

I don't see anything contradictory in what we've said.

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[> [> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- HChockeyalum, 18:03:50 03/22/04 Mon

If you read my post carefully, I did not suggest that "chest thumping" and an "adolescent inferiority complex" was pandemic to postings on this site, though it is perhaps epidemic in proportion (I believe there is a distinction there).
I also did not write to downplay the role of academic rankings as a general concept. Indeed, as a competitor, I understand their "relative" importance. I say "relative" because, as I previously tried to note, the colloquy between Colgate interlopers and HC posters over the academic or athletic merits of each institution, besides being tiresome, had redefined the phrase "splitting hairs" to a point that bothered even this attorney hair-splitting writer. We have very similar academic reputations. I suspect that Colgate's athletes are, like those at HC, also academic achievers.
That said, given the nature of HC students, alums, its mission, its rich academic and athletic history, its "relatively" poor athletic present, debates over the course of the college's athletic program is a topic we must discuss, even if it strays from the "what a great game 'fill in the blank' basketball player had last nite" conversations that are popular here.
While no disrespect to the Ivies or other colleges and universities, HC occupies a unique position in higher education that transcends mere rankings. It is what drew me to the school years ago, drew many alums who post on this site and continues to draw others. It is what I believe separates HC from others and lives at the core of an alumni body that is, by my estimation, dispropotionately successful in their given fields. I don't expect others to necessarily understand that. What irks me are those at the school who are more than happy to play off the athletic legacy to promote HC while doing nothing to foster the athletic present because they ultimately don't care or can't accept the challenge to recruit intelligent athletes. The success of the hockey team comes because of Paul Pearl and in spite of the administration, unless things have dramatically changed since I played.

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[> [> [> Re: What's wrong with HC athletics -- Lehy, 21:29:05 03/22/04 Mon

HCHockeyalum = Ortwein

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[> [> [> You asked the question and I answered. -- Gate Raider, 01:16:53 03/23/04 Tue

You asked what the value of a top 20 ranking was and I answered. I don't think I need therapy just because I would like to see HC and Colgate maintain there integrity and go for the student first and athlete second and end up with a very good student-athlete. Frankly, I do believe that HC's academic ranking would suffer if it chooses to compete in the A-10. Those schools just aren't up to the standards I would set. As an example, Fordham recently accepted a football player with an 890 on the SAT. Good luck in the hockey tournament.

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[> [> [> [> Re: You asked the question and I answered. -- HC99, 07:24:52 03/23/04 Tue

Just because a person scores 890 on the SAT does not mean he can't make it, some people just don't test very high but can out-perform other 1300's in the classroom. The SAT is only one item, I saw students with 1400 on their SAT leave school because they could not hack it. Sometimes a person is so thrilled at being accepted with a lower score he will bust his ass in the classroom and do perfectly fine. Everybody cannot get 1300 on their SAT, you have to look at the complete picture.

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[> [> [> [> Re: You asked the question and I answered. -- kesiwick, 09:08:45 03/23/04 Tue

sure there are exceptions but my guess is that Gate Raider is talking about when the exception becomes the rule -- the reality is on balance students with substantially lower SATs struggle to make it and have a higher drop out rate -- at the extreme end, someone with a 950 SAT is 99 times out of a hundred not going to make through MIT while someone with 1200 just may -- also, is fair to admit someone with an 890 with great athletic skills over someone from the same socio-economic background who has a 1200 with fewer athletic gifts?

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: You asked the question and I answered. -- Purple71, 09:54:06 03/23/04 Tue

I guess that depends upon your vision of what Holy Cross should be. I would accept that 890 applicant with great athletic skills if his/her grades in high school warranted it. To use the SATs as the be all and end all is to produce a homogeneous student body of test takers rather than a well rounded student body. We are not talking about someone who is going to major in basketweaving, rather a student who didn't, for whatever reason, do well on a particular Satudrday on a standardized test, the validity of which is under serious attack.

I tire of the "academic purity" argument as an excuse for athletic mediocrity. I beleive you can have a good academic reputation (Gtown and BC) and still be competitive in certain sports (Gtown and BC). My goal is not to be another Williams, but rather a Holy Cross with its potential maximized in both academics and athletics.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You asked the question and I answered. -- kesiwick, 10:11:40 03/23/04 Tue

I agree with you --

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[> [> [> [> Re: You asked the question and I answered. -- HChockeyalum, 10:14:09 03/23/04 Tue

Actually, my "question" as to the value of a top 20 ranking (when a school is in the top 25 or 30) was purely rhetorical in nature. I was answering my own question by asking it. I asked this rhetorical question because I don't suspect that there are many students who consider themselves of "top 30" caliber that would reject HC "solely" on the basis of its rank in USNWR. Students who attend HC, as opposed to other top 30 schools, are somewhat unique, given the nature of the school. They always have been, at least in my experience and understanding. The top 20 ranking would thus seem to matter more to other less differentiated schools. The point being that "pure" academic ranking has never been the sine qua non of HC admissions. HC has traditionally focused, a misnomer of sorts, on the whole person, which I believe is more in keeping with Jesuit philosophy. If the administration will "refocus" on this point I believe that the school will reclaim its stature, otherwise its "fate" will be the a top 20 ranking and the homogenization that inevitably comes with that status. In other words, be careful for what you wish for, you may get it.

On a separate point, has anyone heard about Harvard's proposed financial aid policy of granting full "grant-in-aid" scholarships to students who come from families that earn less than $40,000 and the same or somewhat less to those that earn less than $80,000? Besides the work that such a policy will provide lawyers and financial planners, akin to the practice of senior citizens impoverishing themselves in order to qualify for Medicaid eligibility when entering a nursing home, this will effectively permit Harvard and the other Ivies that follow to better recruit athletes from middle class and lower middle class families that now choose other schools that can offer full rides. Great move by the Ivies to help their athletic programs, but these stealth "athletic scholarships" are certainly inopposite to their previous policies, unless I'm missing something.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: You asked the question and I answered. -- kesiwick, 10:25:51 03/23/04 Tue

" top 20 ranking and the homogenization that inevitably comes with that status" just curious -- why is it "inevitable" -- HC is more competitive now and less homogenous than it was 20 years ago -- if anything, our financial aid policy/resources are our biggest impediment to a more diversified student body -- we often lose students to other top 20 schools/ivy because they offer better aid packages -- but I think we may be reversing this trend a bit with the latest admissions' numbers

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[> [> [> [> [> [> The 890 may not survive at HC. UMass has tutors. -- Gate Raider, 01:42:10 03/24/04 Wed

SAT scores are used to predict how well a student will do on the college level. While an 890 could survive at HC it would be the exception rather than the rule. There is evidence to support this fact and that is why schools use the SAT.. The difficulty stems from the fact the 890 student at schools like HC would probably be in the 1st percentile (if that) and will be in the same classes competing with students with much more academic ability. Subtract the time spent in sport from the time available for study and it gets worse. The student likely would end up on academic probation or flunk out. That harms the student and the school. That would be okay if you want just an average college. But, then you could just go to a large state school that tries to accomodate all students and costs much less. Keep in mind the good students are more challenged at HC. The football teams at the big time football schools have a cadre of tutors that sometimes even travel with the team. UMass has about 15 tutors for its team. Even with the tutors the graduation rate for players is low. I believe Colgate has the one of the highest, if not the highest, graduation rates for Div. I varsity athletes and they don't major in things like Recreation or PE. I'm sure HC has a high grad rate, too. In the end you have to choose if you want a high quality or average academic school.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> One last point. -- Gate Raider, 01:57:53 03/24/04 Wed

If you are comfortable with accepting just average students (or in the case of an 890 student, one who is 110 points below average in the US) then HC will become just one of thousands of colleges in the US with no particular claim to fame and soon all its standards will fall. Seems to me the goal should be to strive to be the best you can, create a challenging academic and sports environment and add value to the tradition and history of HC.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: UMass has tutors. -- Rick, 20:45:23 03/24/04 Wed

" The football teams at the big time football schools have a cadre of tutors that sometimes even travel with the team. UMass has about 15 tutors for its team. "

http://www.umass.edu/sas/html/staff.html

Doesn't appear that Umass has 15 people on staff let alone 15 dedicated tutors in this program reserved solely for the football team.

Qualified STUDENTS are indeed sought to work as part-time tutors under the supervision of the senior staff in this department. They are NOT permitted to travel with any varsity team on road trips. It is not unusual for a senior staff official to occasionally travel with a varsity team on those rare occasions when a small group of participants have to complete an academic assignment in transit to/from an athletic event.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: UMass has tutors. -- Gate Raider, 00:40:42 03/25/04 Thu

I didn't say tutors travel with UMass. I said the bif time football schools have them. The point I was making is that schools like Colgate and HC don't have dedicated tutors for athletes. The athletes are expected to hold their own the same as other students. The fact is the majority of football players at big football schools and even in many of the A-10 schools are not the same kind of students as in the PL.

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[> To: Rick -- hc69, 22:07:20 03/24/04 Wed

I dunno, Rick, but from the UMass Student-Athlete Services web page: "With a staff of five academic resource coordinators, seven graduate assistants and approximately 100 tutors . . ." UMass' EADA report lists 608 athletes, of which 92, or 15 percent, were football players. Fifteen percent of 100 tutors is 15, which is what Gate Raider said. The point is that with 600 athletes UMass has five full-time professional employees, seven grad assistants, and 100 tutors whose jobs are solely to assist athletes. This is all in addition to the general academic assistance and tutoring UMass provides to all students. Holy Cross, with over 700 athletes, has NONE. Our athletes are expected to get assistance with classes from the same academic resources as non-athletes. UMass' Student-Athlete Services' budget is probably more than the budget of some academic departments at HC. That's one reason why comparing small, high academic undergraduate colleges like us to high academic universities like Duke, Stanford, Cal, and Wake is comparing apples to oranges. Universities can provide academic services dedicated to athletes, and operate them the way UMass does: paid staff, grad students, and paid tutors. Undergraduate colleges generally can't. (We haven't even gotten into academic advising, but UMass' site also says that every athlete has an "athletic" academic advisor IN ADDITION TO the athlete's regular academic advisor.) Maybe that's one reason why it seems to be so difficult for undergraduate colleges to compete at the highest level of D-I basketball and graduate a high percentage of their players -- a lack of academic support resources.

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[> [> Re: To: Rick -- Gate Raider, 00:49:08 03/25/04 Thu

Even with all the tutorial staff at large DI schools, you will find that HC and Colgate graduate more of their athletes than the big schools. Plus HC and Colgate students major in legitimate subjects not silly things like Recreation or Playground Supervision and most graduate in 4 years not 5 or 6.

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