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Date Posted: 16:13:09 03/01/05 Tue
Author: colgate13
Subject: Re: A10 Football "RIP". Time To Go After Villanova Again
In reply to: RamU"72 's message, "A10 Football "RIP". Time To Go After Villanova Again" on 14:18:53 03/01/05 Tue

He might be referring to this: http://www.dnronline.com/sports-story3.asp?session=kVKkotlJ1EbCG23ZtiIRkhTojh

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[> [> Re: Richmond to the PL in FB - looks like a very real possibility. -- Go...'gate, 08:31:33 03/02/05 Wed [1]


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[> [> [> Re: Richmond to the PL in FB - looks like a very real possibility. -- SpiderFan, 10:03:26 03/03/05 Thu [1]

Probably not! There is no advantage to UR joining the Patriot League. Costs of football will not decrease or savings are minimal, especially with UR tuition increase to 40K. Travel will be the same as will administration. There is no prestige factor for the league or UR.

Richmond will move to Colonial for football. The real issue is what is to become of the A10 for basketball.

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[> [> We should all keep our collective PL fingers crossed -- colgate13, 09:43:39 03/02/05 Wed [1]

Richmond would be a nice pickup for our league for football!

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[> [> [> Re: We should all keep our collective PL fingers crossed -- Larry R., 15:22:18 03/02/05 Wed [1]

If Richmond agrees to become a PL member in football it would give the league 8 members and be an insurance policy if Holy Cross leaves for the A-10 as many of their alumni want. Richmond could then become an all-sport member and the PL would be as good as ever.

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[> [> [> [> Richmond as all sports member -- colgate13, 16:08:54 03/02/05 Wed [1]

That, my friend, is a LONG way off, but I'd love to keep it in the realm of possibility. The only way that's happening though is if PL basketball becomes a serious player once everyone has rolled out schollies. We would also be helped out by a Big East break up as there might be some teams looking for a new home that UR would like to join.

UR, Nova and G'Town would be wonderful full sports members and they would raise PL basketball significantly. I'm not holding my breath though!

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Richmond as all sports member -- southern fan, 16:41:41 03/02/05 Wed [1]

Right! Villanova and Georgetown would love to play in the Patriot League for Basketball. Not, my friend!!

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Richmond as all sports member -- colgate13, 08:56:12 03/03/05 Thu [1]

Buddy, I know it's got about as much chance as a Hamilton snowball in hell, but a fan can dream, right?

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[> [> [> [> Re: We should all keep our collective PL fingers crossed -- Gate Raider, 00:30:44 03/03/05 Thu [1]

Actually, with Richmond in as a full member and HC out the PL would be stronger.

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[> [> [> [> Re: We should all keep our collective PL fingers crossed -- HC1843, 09:12:13 03/03/05 Thu [1]

Same argument applies to Colgate friend....time to get over oneself me thinks. Richmond is arguably a better football team year over year than most PL schools and is far superior in hoops, except maybe when compared to the Cross. Gate trails in all other sports as well, except Hockey, but we can't apple to apple that now can we.

Cheers.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: We should all keep our collective PL fingers crossed -- colorless raider, 11:23:54 03/03/05 Thu [1]

You better check the rocord of Gate vs HC in all sports. It is overwhelmingly in favor of Colgate. Not even close.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: All-time? Including Men's BB, FB, Baseball, etc? I think it's a bit closer than claimed. -- Go...'gate, 12:22:24 03/03/05 Thu [1]

HC is one of Colgate's oldest rivalries, but they have a very strong tradition and always been tough on us in most men's sports, except swimming, fencing, etc. They lead the all-time series in Football and Basketball; beat us in FB every year from 1983-1997, and basketball almost every year except the mid 1990's. I think they may be weaker in soem of the women's sports, but isn't it fair to say that this stuff is very often cyclical?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: All-time? Including Men's BB, FB, Baseball, etc? I think it's a bit closer than claimed. -- fan, 12:43:10 03/03/05 Thu [1]

Regarding football from 1983-1987. That was when Holy Cross gave scholarships and no one else did my friend.When the playing field became level with need based aid, the picture changed. much like Basketball,

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No so fast; they beat us w/o scholarships in '93, '94, '95, '96 and '97. -- Go...'gate, 13:00:48 03/03/05 Thu [1]

Ande we have hardly EVER been competitive with them in BB, even with scholarships, except when Foyle was at Colgate. Finally, I think the bloom is off the rose with respect to the issue of scholarships. Clearly, Colgate, like the Ivies, had it's own share of equivalencies all these years, so that argument has lost some steam. Bottom line is that lately, some HC and Colgate people really go out of the way to trash each other - is it really necessary? They are a fine school and an old and respected opponent.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No so fast; they beat us w/o scholarships in '93, '94, '95, '96 and '97. -- unknown, 13:12:59 03/03/05 Thu [1]

Not 97!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: We should all keep our collective PL fingers crossed -- Matunuck, 13:04:43 03/03/05 Thu [1]

As usual, Go...'gate gets it right -- Thanks

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[> [> [> [> [> Keep Richmond in perspective - they're not UD -- colgate13, 13:04:31 03/03/05 Thu [1]

They are 1-2 vs. PL teams since 1998. They were ranked #39 in GPI last year, behind 4 PL schools. They are a good fit for the PL in part because they're not competitive generally in the A-10. Clawson is trying to change things, but they've only had 2 good seasons in the A-10.

IF they were to join the PL in 2005 they'd be fighting for 3rd place at best, 6th at worst. Don't think they'd come in here and mop up the league, even with scholarship players.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But they sure hate their President Cooper -- Go...'gate, 13:32:59 03/03/05 Thu [1]

There is some regret in all this, because the guy really seems pretty high-handed. On the Any Given Sunday board, there is a report that he refused to answer the questions of a group of players who wanted to see him about the move. Not much class in that kind of activity - the kids should be heard on this.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But they sure hate their President Cooper -- JRGNYR, 14:33:43 03/03/05 Thu [1]

A few things...

I don't see the need for 'Gate and HC fans to trash each other. Somebody said it best: we're old and respected opponents and rivals.

Overall Colgate probably does have a stronger PL profile athletically than HC. HC has the edge in basketball, but in every thing else Colgate has been better, you can't deny that. I was rooting hard for Colgate in the I-AA playoffs when they made their run in '03.

Re: Richmond, Hooptime brought up a good point... if some argue that dropping scholarships would not save an appreciable amount of money (if any at all), then why is the Patriot League refusing to allow limited scholarships for their football programs? Harvard and Yale are going to get the athletes because of their reputation, but if a PL school could toss a few more dollars towards a prospective football player, you might steal a few of them away from the Ivies.

And Hooptime also brought up that the Patriot League is turning into a pretty solid I-AA conference, with Colgate's recent run and Lehigh having been one of the most consistently good programs in the last 15 years. Lafayette is clearly on the rise, Bucknell does OK for themselves, and we in HC nation are hopeful Gilmore can at least return the program to some semblance of respectibility.

I think PL football, with or without Richmond, has a pretty good profile and it ought to continue to improve. Adding Richmond would certainly be a positive.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> JRGNYR - You're Right -- Gate Raider, 00:49:39 03/04/05 Fri [1]

Gate and Cross are both good schools with lots of tradtion and a history between them. But, there is nothing wrong with a little good natured rivalry between posters. That is part of the fun. You know, bragging rights, etc. No one should take the posts all that serious. Only thing that bothers me is the HC posters who continually gripe about the PL and how much better it would be if they left and the constant snipes at the PA PL schools. There is no doubt you have had the stronger BB team for many years. However, I don't think that will last much longer now that all but Lafayette is giving schollies in BB. Outside of BB there isn't too much crowing Cross can do at this time. Finally, I still would like to see 'gate beat you guys every time we play. Could you expect anything else. Said with a big smile.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> scholarships/parity -- colgate13, 08:08:32 03/04/05 Fri [1]

KY Crusader has got it right. Scholarships across the PL do not mean that HC's reign as top BB school is done. Far from it. For starters, BB is HC's top priority. It will get the largest focus from the institution. At Colgate, it will get #3. At Lehigh, it will get #3. I'm sure there are other PL schools like Navy where BB is not clearly the #2 sport.

Secondly, each school has a host of other issues to contend with when recruiting. A level playing field (scholarships) makes it easier to recruit, but if an athlete is considering HC and Colgate, where would YOU rather be a player? 3,000+ at Hart or 300+ at Cotterell? The perceived margin of academics between HC and 'gate is smaller than the perceived margin of basketball support between the schools.

That's just the tip of the iceberg of why I wouldn't hold my breath that HC's days at the top are done. The whole league should get better with parity, but that helps HC too. If the PL has more clout as a conference, doesn't the top school benefit from that as much as the bottom?

Scholarships are good, very good, but they are not a panacea for schools like Colgate. We've got a lot of hard work to do before we'll ever challenge HC for league dominance on a regular level.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: JRGNYR - You're Right -- JRGNYR, 04:06:25 03/05/05 Sat [1]

I have no problem with tweaking somebody here or there on something. But sometimes the tweaking seems to be a little bit more serious than a good natured rib, and unfortunately that can take the fun out of it for all of us.

With that in mind, how dare you let Joe Knight put up 45 points!! :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Scholarship Issue -- KY Crusader 75, 07:30:27 03/04/05 Fri [1]

Gate Raider-- I offer this for your consideration: there is more to winning basketball games and conference championships than having scholarship athletes. "Levelling the playing field" is a great concept and I, for one, want all the PL schools to have scholarships and to improve their teams. However, scholarships for all members will not guarantee parity. For example, every school in the Big-12 has scholarships and has had them for decades. Still, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that Kansas will have a better record over the next decade than its next door neighbor, Nebraska--or Baylor, or Colorado, or other Big-12 teams. Every school in the Big-10 has scholarships yet I'll wager that Michigan will have a better record over the next decade than Penn State. In like fashion, scholarships for all will not guarantee parity in the PL. Would you care to make a wager on the next 20 games between Colgate and The Cross? I may have 30 years on you, but I still expect to be here in a decade to collect if we do make the bet....

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Scholarship Issue -- colorless raider, 13:41:56 03/05/05 Sat [1]

Kentucky Crusader: I'll make that bet in football!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No Bet -- Gate Raider, 00:47:06 03/06/05 Sun [1]

Well KY, I believe you are correct in your analysis so I won't be taking the bet. My reason, however, is your coach. I just think he is very good and able to recruit the right players to continue his success. If he left, it might be a different story. I also think it will be more difficult to recruit in the future because prospects will be looking for teams where they can make an immediate contribution rather than join a team based on its past record of success. HC is certainly the class of the PL now and for the next few years. I just think changes will take place and it will start with Bucknell. Now, win a few games at the dance.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: No Bet -- Sader03, 12:25:59 03/06/05 Sun [1]

"I also think it will be more difficult to recruit in the future because prospects will be looking for teams where they can make an immediate contribution rather than join a team based on its past record of success."

Man, I wonder how the Dukes and Kentuckys of the world are able to land any good recruits...that being said look for Army and Lafayette to have some of the best classes in the nation next year!

nice try

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We're talking PL -- Gate Raider, 23:59:42 03/06/05 Sun [1]

There will always be a few premier teams although that can change when a particular coach leaves. We are not talking Duke and Kentucky but, shall we say, the next level down like the PL.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: But they sure hate their President Cooper -- Andy, 16:59:28 03/05/05 Sat [1]

One problem with this "scholarships won't guarantee parity" argument is that in the pre-scholarship, level playing field days--despite HC's traditions, priorities, etc--they weren't doing so well. Those advantages weren't helping them then. It's easy to single out Colgate who more than anyone except Army comes with the "baggage," if you will, of a lack of bball tradition, small crowds, student apathy, and a football/hockey reputation. But give Bucknell, Lehigh and, hopefully, Lafayette four years of schollie players and there will be a situation much closer to parity then when HC and AU were dominating the league as the only schollie schools, a lot like when equal opportunity existed before scholarships.

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