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Date Posted: 13:27:31 03/18/08 Tue
Author: Franks Tanks
Subject: American Grad rate

American has an 18% grad rate for there basketball team. What an embarresment for a league where the other league members actuallt care about academics.

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[> Re: Is that grad rate through 2006-2007? -- Go...'gate, 15:07:01 03/18/08 Tue [1]

It was my understanding that AU had pledged, upon entering the PL, to improve their graduation rates. I know going back to 2002-2003 it was in the teens or twenties, but I thought it had improved.

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[> [> Re: Is that grad rate through 2006-2007? -- Franks Tanks, 15:28:22 03/18/08 Tue [1]

It was mentioned as 18% on Espn.com They had a reverse grad rate tournament where they used the tourny matchups and had the team with a lower grad rate advance. American advanced to the final 4 -- embarresing

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[> [> [> American does not deserve to be in the league -- LU 72, 20:42:31 03/18/08 Tue [1]

The school has no national profile, no programs of great merit and nothing to recommend it. It is a freeloader on the schools that made the league and continue to make it what it is, and those are schools that have FOOTBALL teams.
American should be expelled. The league is allowing a low-rent school to take its bid while the core schools sit at home.

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[> [> [> [> Watching AU fans cheering afterthe win was funny -- BERTHA, 11:41:08 03/19/08 Wed [1]

Fans should never go on the field of play or the court, and watching these non-fans behave as if they were in a movie scene was funny and fake.
It was all about ``playing fan'' not being one.
Ideally we would have enough real members to provide a cushion for membership and oust AU and Fordham. We do not and probably will not at least for a long time.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: If their grad rate is still 18%, I believe they may need to be warned by the league. -- Go...'gate, 13:23:03 03/19/08 Wed [1]

Let's face it, taht is not what the conference is all about. Theie athletes are certainly not representative of their general student bodies, as American is a fine school.

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[> [> [> [> [> Hah! -- Realist, 20:33:54 03/19/08 Wed [1]

Lehigh is a cute little school. Fordham is a prominent national institution. But I won't hold this against Lehigh. Some of my best workers went to Lehigh.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hah! -- Franks Tanks, 08:26:30 03/20/08 Thu [1]

Ok Realist lets be frank. Fordham is a fine school but Lehigh is something like 40 spots ahead in the US NEWS rankings, thats not even CLOSE.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hah! -- Realist, 10:25:53 03/20/08 Thu [1]

US News Rankings are for those of you with inferiority complexes. They mean little. The measure of a school's stature is who it graduates, not who it admits. Which school has a stronger faculty with far more scholars of international reputation? Fordham. Which school has the far more impressive list of accomplished alumni? Fordham. Which school's professional and graduate programs are flooded with applications from Lehigh graduates? Fordham.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hah! -- Franks Tanks, 12:31:19 03/20/08 Thu [1]

Sucess is arbitrary, what you and I consider so may be different. Fordham's graduate school is much larger than Lehigh's so of course they will get applicant. Fordham is a great school and has some excellent grad programs, but the admission criteria isnt even close to being the same-- sorry your wrong

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hah! -- Realist, 09:23:15 03/21/08 Fri [1]

Yes, for those of you who think that the most important thing you ever did was sit for the SAT when you were 17 years old, Lehigh is the preferred school. (You might want to note, however, that the secondary school GPA of students entering Fordham (3.7) is as high as those entering Lehigh; however, I forgot for a moment that the SAT is, of course, the most important thing you've ever done).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hah! -- Franks Tanks, 09:41:06 03/21/08 Fri [1]

I dont believe that is what I said. Fordham is a fine school and I am glad they are in our league. I understand the US News ranking are BS in many ways but they still are effective in grouping like schools. Fordham is ranked next to Clemson and Miami of Ohio. Nothing wrong with that and Fordham still attracts many great students who become very successful, but the fact remains that Lehigh is still significantly harder to get into than Fordham. Oh and i'm actually a Lafayette grad, I dont even like Lehigh, but I am also a crusader of truth and the american way so I adressed the issue. Ok I guess thats enough of this pissing match

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hah! -- Realist, 07:44:02 03/22/08 Sat [1]

So you're a Lafayette grad defending Lehigh? Cats and dogs, living together. Here's something for you to think about. Sources such as The Gourman Report rated Fordham's academic departments, as a whole, higher than any of the core PL schools. In fact, among the schools associated with the PL, Gourman ranks only Georgetown and Fordham in the 4.0 to 5.0 range -- the top tier of the rankings. No core PL school can claim to have stronger academic departments than Fordham in fields such as philosophy, theology, humanities, classics, literature, history, journalism and communications, psychology, etc. Moreover, not only does Fordham have internationally recognized scholars on its faculty, but it requires that all faculty teach undergraduate courses. At Fordham, you can take, for example, Avery Dulles as an undergraduate, and you get lectured by Avery Dulles, not his TA. Your comparisons to Clemson and Miami-Ohio are way off the mark. This is whay Fordham graduates do well in so many field. They are pushed by a demanding faculty and curriculum, and are taught to work hard for success. You in the PL should be touting Fordham as an underrated gem, and the equal to any school in the league (although, the "public perception" is beginning to catch up with the reality at Fordham, and its US News ranking will most certainly reflect that in the next 10 years or so).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> ``Underrated'' means ``no good'' -- No NYC schools belong in the league, 13:27:36 03/23/08 Sun [1]


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[> [> [> [> Re: American does not deserve to be in the league -- Franks Tanks, 20:31:21 03/19/08 Wed [1]

I dont disagree with your statement-- we would all love to have another all sports member or two but unfortunantly potential suitors that we can get excited about seems to be 0 at this juncture.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: American does not deserve to be in the league -- colorless raider, 19:54:17 03/22/08 Sat [1]

To Franks Tanks. Stop being polite to "Realist". Anybody who knows anything about the AI knows that Fordham Undergraduate school is not close to the rest of the Patriot League. That is not to say that they don't have an excellent faculty that is there because of the graduate programs.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: American does not deserve to be in the league -- Franks Tanks, 12:55:27 03/24/08 Mon [1]

Thanks Raider. As you may know I really like Fordham and think they are a great school. Im not the biggest fan of US NEWS ranking and admission critera as a determination of the quality of the student body, but when the numbers are that disparite it is clear there is a difference. Hey Realist open up the US NEWS ranking, Fordham is ranked right there with Clemson and Miami of Ohio, its black & white. Does Fordham have better students, faculty, and programs? Quite possibly but the average incoming student is comparable to the average incoming student at these two schools

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[> [> [> [> Re: American does not deserve to be in the league -- FU1841, 11:01:45 07/23/08 Wed [1]

Oh, come on! this c**p again? Lehigh is #31 to Fordham's #67. So what? UC-Berkly is #21 and UNC is #28, does that prove Lehigh is inferior to those super-sized public schools? I'd sooner send my kids to Lehigh than UNC or Berkley, so rankings serve a purpose, but is often tied to facilities and money and USN&WR has gotten a lot of heat for how it determines rankings. Georgetown, which has taken a LOT of heat on the PL boards for football and slammed for basketball, is ranked #23! I don't see GU folks, after seeing negative posts against them, coming on these boards to suggest that Lehigh be dropped for lesser standards. What matters is that both Fordham and American are in the top 100 national universitites in the nation, a nation of some 3,000 colleges and universities. No one is here trashing Lehigh for not being top 20 or top 25.

Go--gate is 100% right-If AU needs to address some issues of academic performance of their team, they will. Bertha, it seems to me that you are quick to slam the two schools that A)are not original members and B)won the PL championships in the two big sports. Instead of talking trash, how about supporting the two PL MEMBER schools that won the championships and went on to represent the PL in NCAA play. I guess all is wrong with the world if Lehigh isn't King of the Hill for fans like Bertha.

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[> Re: American Grad rate -- An actual college graduate, 04:09:03 03/25/08 Tue [1]

What is really embarrassing is the poor command of the English language displayed by posters on this board. Did you people actually graduate from college? Do you know how to use a dictionary? Or even spell check?

Can you discern the difference between "there", "their" and "they're"?

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[> [> Re: American Grad rate -- Franks Tanks, 09:10:40 03/25/08 Tue [1]

Awesome comeback Jerk-off. Its a message board we make our points quickly and move on. Yes there are spelling and grammar errors at times, but that is not the issue.

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[> [> [> Re: American Grad rate -- bump, 18:56:31 04/19/08 Sat [1]


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[> [> [> [> Re: American passed the APR guidelines, for what that is worth. -- Go...'gate, 20:33:14 05/07/08 Wed [1]


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[> Re: American Grad rate -- ramray, 17:28:58 07/20/08 Sun [1]

"Ideally we would have enough real members to provide a cushion for membership and oust AU and Fordham."


*SIGH* I see there are still those here who find some superiority in putting down Fordham. A few years ago it was Holy Cross folks who attacked, now I have seen other Lehigh posts talking trash against Fordham. Yes, Lehigh is a fine school best known for engeenering and whose average SAT is a bit higher than Fordham's. What many here fail to see (and I perodically mention to edify our misguided friends in the PL) is that Fordham's composite SAT score includes a school of General Studies and Marymount College (this is the last year as Marymount has been dissolved) and their lower admissions standards are what is reported in USN&WR. Understand this is significant to note as, for example, Columbia does NOT include the profile of it's school of general studies when reporting to ranking sources and views it as a separate, unique program. Fordham does not take such a manupulative tactic.

As the PL is made up of small colleges, it would be fair to compare small college to small college; Fordham's College SAT profile is very close to the PL. I guess it gives some a sense of importance to find a relatively small difference in SATs to make broad statements such as Fordham does not belong in the PL. On the Lehigh fan blog there was talk of schools like Marist, Stony Brook and recently Loyola (MD) joining the league. All of these schools have lower SAT profiles that those of Fordham College, yet BERTHA would find Fordham unworthy to stay in the PL. Lehigh is a fine school. I don't see the need for some Lehigh fans (or any other PL school for that matter) to slam Fordham. I suspect that part of this is that Lehigh is currently not the top dog in PL football and many resent Fordham's current position. Given the few choices available for future membership, the PL can't be too picky if it wishes to expand. We are talking athletics, and no one here wants to loose to schools like Central Conn, Marist, Monmouth, Albany or any school in the Northeast or Pioneer conference. The PL is not the Ivy League. One day a Marist, Stony Brook, Dayton or other school may be invited to join to strengthen the PLs bid positioning. People like BERTHA will have a joyous time slamming the new underdogs. I know the fame and reputation Fordham has nationwide so am not as offended by such slams, but I do tire of them.

But hey BERTHA, wanna see Towsen U. in the PL again? bet that would give you a good buzz!

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[> [> Re: American Grad rate -- Man of La Mancha, 17:46:00 07/20/08 Sun [1]

I have immediate family ties to Lehigh and Lafayette, and attended the latter. Other family members attended Army and Colgate and there is some good natured kidding now and then but nobody really cares. and I wonder what is the point of all this number crunching and do other leagues engage in this kind of argument? It is beyond arcane.

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[> [> [> Re: Anybody who has half a brain knows how good a school Fordham is. -- Go...'gate, 00:13:50 07/21/08 Mon [1]

It is just a shame that we have people in our own conference who are so ignorant about Fordham. Moreover, American (which is also a very fine school) is working to address the problems they had at the time they came aboard the conference. Anybody who puts Marist, for example, in a category with any present PL member school needs to take a closer look at the facts. Marist in the PL would be akin to Quinnipiac in the ECAC Hockey League.

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[> [> Re: American Grad rate -- ramray, 08:42:46 07/23/08 Wed [1]

Go..gate, Man of la Mancha

I agree, no point to the attacks. We should be slamming the Ivies for treating the PL as they do instead of one another. ....I have seen postings in the last few years saying that Georgetown should be removed as they were always losing, but Georgetown has perhaps the highest academic admissions standards in the PL. If athletic and not just academic prowess is the key factor in belonging in the PL, then why attack Fordham as thay have painfully worked their way up as a contender? They were regularly put down when a doormat for 10 years, now after spending the time, energy and money to elevate football (as well as acacdemic standing), people still enjoy slamming the school. But then again this pales in comparison to the really nasty stuff that goes on the Ivy boards, to answer your question, LaMancha. I guess pecking orders help some to sleep better at night. Keep in mind my peers who went to Ivy schools look down upon all the PL as inferior, so everything is relative.

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[> [> [> The debate is inevitable -- BERTHA, 22:11:22 07/26/08 Sat [1]

Even if all the schools were identical in size, endowment, AI, admissions, everything, there would be argument. For one thing, it's human nature, plus it's the off-season.
We would all I think prefer to have only all-sports members, with an exception for Army and Navy, but it is not a perfect world.
Lasalle tried to run a football team ``on the cheap'' and we know what happened there.
Certainly Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and Colgate are very similar in many ways, but there are just not many schools around that fit the bill and have football.
So it goes.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Ivies are going to look down on us anyway, which speaks volumes about how far the PL has come. -- Go...'gate, 17:50:37 07/27/08 Sun [1]

The league has survived and has secured a place in the public consciousness which sees the PL as a similar high-academic, Division I member conference. They don't have the field to themselves anymore, as they had (as a formal conference) from 1956-85.

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