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Date Posted: 17:22:47 05/09/05 Mon
Author: RamRay
Subject: Once more into the frey.....

"Finally, if you're looking for a PL team that is "dragging" down the academics, Fordham is significantly below the rest of the league"

This was taken from a Holy Cross posting by a Colgate participant. While this person went on to say he felt Fordham was an "excellent" instituion and had no issues with their associate membership, I can't help but have a feeling of deja vous. About 2 years ago upon seeing similar statements on the HC board, I once posted here how Fordham has 5 very different and diverse undergraduate colleges whose aggregate SATs are what get reported for the university, of how Fordham College has a similar profile to the rest of the small PL schools and should be compared as such, yet this sentiment of "Academically less" still makes the rounds. I reported how USN&WR classifies most of the PL as National Liberal Arts Colleges and Fordham and Georgetown as National Research Universities...apples and oranges, yet many on this board still look at one aspect of a school's strength and find Fordham wanting. I don't want to get into what Fordham has that others do not....it would change nothing in many minds. I fully support PL participation and truly hoped at this point we could get past the "My school is better than your school" mentality. When some wonder why many Fordham alums consider leaving the PL for what they hope may be greener pastures, sentiments such as these add to their sense of feeling marginalized; the step-child that was not really wanted at the table when in fact Fordham grads feel quite proud and go on to do well with their degree. Isn't it enough we have to deal with the likes of an NDH?

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[> Don't lose sleep over the comment -- Raider Redhead, 22:34:29 05/09/05 Mon [1]

Most high school seniors would give their eye teeth to matriculate to any one of the current PL institutions including those with associate membership in the various sports.

That said, the benefits derived from any undergraduate education are largely determined by the effort and accomplishments of the individual student rather than the general academic reputation of the institution. A degree from a prestigious school may provide a good jump start for a career. However, when one is 10+ years removed from his or her undergraduate experience, educational credentials are secondary to professional work experience and accomplishments.

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[> I believe that comment was mine... -- colgate13, 09:14:20 05/10/05 Tue [1]

And if that's what you took away from it you missed my intent. If I remember the conversation correctly, it was one of the silly "my school is better than your school" arguements directed at Holy Cross. I simply pointed out the facts that all PL schools are top notch BUT if you wanted to single out one that has a profile below the others it would be Fordham. It's the truth in my opinion but it doesn't take away from the fact that all PL schools are good schools.

I tempered my statements because Fordham is unlike the other PL schools in some ways and like it in others when you compare Rose Hill (correct?) to the rest of the PL. It's like Cornell to the rest of the Ivy League in some aspects. Cornell is bigger, has multiple schools and, most importantly, has an ag school and a hotel/restaurant management school. Because of that Cornell can bring in some hockey players that some of the rest of the ECAC can't.

I know that rankings and statistics mean jack on an individual basis. However our league has been structured to have an Academic Index based on the regular student body. Because of that, Georgetown has the highest academic hurdle for their athletic recruiting and Fordham has the lowest. I have no sour grapes about the issue nor do I think it's a huge deal. It's just laying the facts out as they are. Does it make or break the PL because Fordham has a "slightly" lower AI to contend with? Absolutely not. I think all PL schools have their own niches to recruiting and I doubt there are many recruiting battles lost on an academic basis. All PL schools are top schools in the nation and any football player coming in should be considered a scholar-athlete that the NCAA would be proud of.

I guess I would say that I didn't start the silly arguement on the HC board, but I was trying straighten it out based on facts.

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[> who marginalized whom? -- 'gate88, 10:00:27 05/10/05 Tue [1]

If Fordham hadn't cut and run from full membership in the PL then they wouldn't be feeling "marginalized." I welcome them back.

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[> [> Particularly for basketball -- Raider Redhead, 10:26:00 05/10/05 Tue [1]

Unfortunately, FU's re-entry for hoops probably will never happen.

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[> Re: Once more into the frey..... -- RamRay, 11:04:09 05/10/05 Tue [1]

I appreciate your clarification Colgate 13 and the softening of your orginal "significantly below" to "slightly lower" description. I fully concur with your analogy of Cornell in the Ivy League. Having many friends who went to Cornell, they noted how their membership in the Ivies was viewed..very similar situation. An excellent point. I and many alums were not in agreement when FU left the PL for the A-10 when the request that the PL be allowed to offer full scholies was refused. Funny how now I hear that call from other PL schools. I and others think very highly of the PL and wish the PL would offer full rides: I would lobby like mad to go back to the PL for all sports. I see nothing gained from A-10 membership except TV time. In truth I am pushing my son to apply to Cogate and others in the PL, while leaving many in the A-10 as safety schools.

Once again, thank you for your clarification. I find the PL excellent company to be in.

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[> [> Re: I believe PL, with BB schollies and enhanced national visibility, would be great fit for FU now. -- Go...'gate, 11:16:44 05/10/05 Tue [1]


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[> [> [> Agreed! -- RamRay, 12:58:22 05/10/05 Tue [1]


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[> Always from Colgaters -- Denton, 16:12:59 05/10/05 Tue [1]

An observation: the talk about inferior academics at other PL institutions ALWAYS comes from someone identifying himself/herself as a Colgate supporter---- 100% of the time, not 99%.

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[> [> Re: Not really -- Go...'gate, 17:56:48 05/10/05 Tue [1]

Each school has their share of posters like that, but I think we all agree that all the present schools are good and getting even better. Fordham as a full member would be a great thing.

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[> [> ALWAYS?? -- colgate13, 06:56:22 05/11/05 Wed [1]

Smartypants -

The most recent event being discussed here originated on a Holy Cross board and it was a "Colgater" that was saying all PL schools are good.

Why the Colgate chip on your shoulder?

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[> Re: Once more into the frey..... -- RamRay, 06:55:48 05/11/05 Wed [1]

I must agree with Go..'gate. One of the most obnoxious persons who was so smug and arrogant he insulted many a Fordham fan was from Holy Cross...2 years ago it was this HC poster who started this whole "We're superior/you're inferior" run. His position was that he was only stating the truth. I have not seen his post name in a while I am happy to say.

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[> Nice civil discussion here gang. Count me as an FU alumn who wants to be fulltime PL (w/schollies). -- PA Ram, 10:18:38 05/11/05 Wed [1]


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[> [> Re: Do you think Fordham's President would consider such a move? -- Go...'gate, 10:32:34 05/11/05 Wed [1]


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[> [> [> Re: Do you think Fordham's President would consider such a move? -- RamRay, 11:03:51 05/11/05 Wed [1]

While subject to political and economic pressures and the voices of the most generous alumni, what university president would not consider the demands of an alumni group? Some alums want CAA and one day to become 1-A again. Others like the PL and want the PL to step up with scholies.

Now, having said that, Fr. McShane is first and foremost about academic quality, integrety and growth. He has been known to (nicely but firmly) rebuff the waggings of those alums pushing for CAA/A-10 football membership and is tired of alums' 1-A dreams we cannot afford. I think if the PL were to offer FB & BB scholarships, he would have compelling reasons for returning for full membership. His goal is to elevate Fordham to compete with BC, GU and ND as a, if not THE, premier Catholic University in the US. Yet reality dictates we do not have the $ to compete with ND & BC's strong Div I football, but were we to elevate academicsand athletics to a higher level, we could be a force in the 1-AA arena looking to strongly compete against HC, GU, Villanova with a yearly game against a Div I opponent. A stronger scholie PL could make that a reality, not to mention elevate the programs at all PL schools while still making academics first: a PAC 10 we will never become!

This is how I see it.

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[> [> [> Re: Do you think Fordham's President would consider such a move? -- RamRay, 11:06:21 05/11/05 Wed [1]

While subject to political and economic pressures and the voices of the most generous alumni, what university president would not consider the demands of an alumni group? Some alums want CAA and one day to become 1-A again. Others like the PL and want the PL to step up with scholies.

Now, having said that, Fr. McShane is first and foremost about academic quality, integrety and growth. He has been known to (nicely but firmly) rebuff the waggings of those alums pushing for CAA/A-10 football membership and is tired of alums' 1-A dreams we cannot afford. I think if the PL were to offer FB & BB scholarships, he would have compelling reasons for returning for full membership. His goal is to elevate Fordham to compete with BC, GU and ND as a, if not THE, premier Catholic University in the US. Yet reality dictates we do not have the $ to compete with ND & BC's strong Div I football, but were we to elevate academics and athletics to a higher level, we could be a force in the 1-AA arena looking to strongly compete against HC, GU, Villanova with a yearly game against a Div I opponent. A stronger scholie PL could make that a reality, not to mention elevate the programs at all PL schools while still making academics first: a PAC 10 we will never become!

This is how I see it.

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[> [> [> [> FU & the PL -- Jimbo65, 08:33:41 05/12/05 Thu [1]

FU's move to the PL coupled with a dismal and ineffective athletic administration almost destroyed the athletic program, not only in bball but in the minor sports. Fball was saved by a great coach and the work of alumns, not by membership in the PL. Associate membership in the PL is good for FU fball but what is needed is better scheduling a/k/a no more Marist, Duquense & Albany.While we all were thrilled at Bucknell's great NCAA victory, the year before Lehigh was sent to the play-in game. I hope things are left as they are.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: FU & the PL -- RamRay, 08:49:47 05/13/05 Fri [1]

But you have to admit, Jimbo, it would be dramatically better if the PL offered full rides: the PL could all then compete with the big dogs and still be looked upon as a model of academics and athletics in proper balance. Then the week scheduling would be moved to a strong one.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: FU & the PL -- colorless raider, 09:56:52 05/13/05 Fri [1]

Put the pressure on the Fordham admimistration to back schollies.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: FU & the PL -- RamRay, 10:34:25 05/13/05 Fri [1]

The pressure has to be on the PL full-members... Alums DID put pressure on Fr. Finley then O'Shay for scholies..that is a key reason why we went to the A-10 for all other sports. The PL has been quite firm in it's position of never having scholies...but they serve the member schools and if the member schools wish to change the charter, they can.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fr. McShane is a pragmatist. There would be a riot among alums if FU rejoined the PL. Never happen. -- Rambacker, 13:59:09 05/21/05 Sat [1]

In fact, expect Fordham to potentially take another step up in basketball if a slot opens up in a revised Big East or formation of a new Catholic big time basketball league. We're going in the opposite direction.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Fr. McShane IS a pragmatist. That's why I can't agree with your view in this case. -- RamRay, 09:13:37 05/23/05 Mon [1]


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Rambacker--who supplies your Kool-Aid?? -- Realist, 15:45:07 05/24/05 Tue [1]


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Repeat-Fr. McShane is a PRAGMATIST, not suicidal. Never happen. -- Rambacker, 17:44:12 05/28/05 Sat [1]

We're going in a different direction. It's called national exposure, not very, very regional exposure. Next topic?

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