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Subject: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: John M. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 20:53:52 06/09/04 Wed I'm trying to decide between a Necky Pinta and an Eddyline Nighthawk 17.5. I know you're all shy about giving opinions, but random comments from experienced paddlers on the pros and cons of each boat will be most appreciated. I'm 6'3 and 260, size 12 shoes. I'm a low intermediate. S.F./Tomales Bay are my home waters. Plan to go to Sierra lakes as well. I have a lot of rental experience with and like the Necky with no rudder. I find the Necky plenty big, maybe a hair too much so. Thanks much and thank you Wes for a great site. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Re: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: Nick M. [Edit] Date Posted: 18:52:48 06/10/04 Thu I'm shy about giving opinions, but here's my 2 cents worth. My gut feeling would be to tell you to avoid the Nighthawk 17.5. That kayak is much narrower than the Necky Pinta, and has a deeper V in the hull. The Eddyline kayaks are excellent quality, but my experience with these kayaks are that the primary stability is squirrely to put it nicely. Secondary is acceptable, but you have to keep a good pace for it to feel so. The Necky Pinta on the other hand, is wider at 27", has a much less pronounced V in the hull, but still excellent depth at 13". The Necky kayaks were designed by a BIG guy, so they fit big guys very well. Necky kayaks have been used extensively in expeditions around the world and are very seaworthy. The Pinta in fiberglass weighs 6 pounds more than the Nighthawk 17.5. Pricewise, the Pinta is about 600 dollars more than the Nighthawk, but I think it is worth every penny. (better deck rigging/perimeter lines/hardware) Speedwise, I think the Nighthawk might be faster, but your arms will tire sooner paddling it as you have to constantly paddle it to stay upright. The Pinta will give you reassuring stability, even in large waves which to me at least far outweighs a knot or two lost in speed.

[> [> Subject: Re: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: Nighthawk175 [Edit] Date Posted: 20:43:52 06/11/04 Fri >I'm shy about giving opinions, but here's my 2 cents >worth. My gut feeling would be to tell you to avoid >the Nighthawk 17.5. That kayak is much narrower than >the Necky Pinta, and has a deeper V in the hull. The >Eddyline kayaks are excellent quality, but my >experience with these kayaks are that the primary >stability is squirrely to put it nicely. Secondary is >acceptable, but you have to keep a good pace for it to >feel so. >Speedwise, I think the Nighthawk might >be faster, but your arms will tire sooner paddling it >as you have to constantly paddle it to stay upright. >The Pinta will give you reassuring stability, even in >large waves which to me at least far outweighs a knot >or two lost in speed. I'm fairly certain that you've never paddled a Nighthawk 17.5. Maybe the 16, but for sure not the 17.5, you aren't even close. The Nighthawk 17.5 is hugely stable in primary stability, I can sit in a wind whipped chop in excess of 2' with white caps and eat a sandwich in my boat. It is very confidence inspiring. Not only that, but it can edge turn no problem. The big issue with high primary stability is that generally the boats handle like a barge. The semi-V hull on the Nighthawk 17.5 really balances this out nicely. Secondary stability comes in when you put a boat on edge, has nothing to do with paddling. Your comments about moving the Nighthawk 17.5 in order to stay upright tell me that you might not have even paddled a kayak before. The only boat that I've been in that even comes close to your description is a Nordkapp, which is one of the most advanced mass production hulls on the market. An Aquila might come close. I've pasted detailed reviews here that you can find or on paddling.net under the reviews section for the 17.5, they cover most of the details. Eddyline also just came out with a new hull, the Phoenix. This will be a lower waterline boat, more in the Greenland style for the big paddler. Since you're shopping now, I would strongly advise you to check it out if you don't need the massive volume of the 17.5. There are days I wish for a more lively boat like a Merlin XT but with a longer waterline and the Phoenix is supposed to fit that bill. I haven't paddled the Phoenix yet. I'm sorry about the ranting tone, but truly this was a load of misinformation. The Pinta is an extremely well finished boat. I couldn't find one for demo when I bought the Nighthawk 17.5 or it would have been a tough choice. The Pinta is the only other boat that I've been in that is bigger than the Nighthawk and the Nighthawk on its own is a huge boat. The Pinta is faster than the Nighthawk 17.5 given the same paddler, but I feel like I could outrun it in rough water. The Nighthawk really stands out when things get nasty. Two years now of exposed outside storage and the finish looks great. The Carbonlite from Eddyline really continues to impress me.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: Nick M. [Edit] Date Posted: 07:51:09 06/14/04 Mon >>I'm shy about giving opinions, but here's my 2 cents >>worth. My gut feeling would be to tell you to avoid >>the Nighthawk 17.5. That kayak is much narrower than >>the Necky Pinta, and has a deeper V in the hull. The >>Eddyline kayaks are excellent quality, but my >>experience with these kayaks are that the primary >>stability is squirrely to put it nicely. Secondary is >>acceptable, but you have to keep a good pace for it to >>feel so. > >>Speedwise, I think the Nighthawk might >>be faster, but your arms will tire sooner paddling it >>as you have to constantly paddle it to stay upright. >>The Pinta will give you reassuring stability, even in >>large waves which to me at least far outweighs a knot >>or two lost in speed. > >I'm fairly certain that you've never paddled a >Nighthawk 17.5. Maybe the 16, but for sure not the >17.5, you aren't even close. > >The Nighthawk 17.5 is hugely stable in primary >stability, I can sit in a wind whipped chop in excess >of 2' with white caps and eat a sandwich in my boat. >It is very confidence inspiring. Not only that, but >it can edge turn no problem. The big issue with high >primary stability is that generally the boats handle >like a barge. The semi-V hull on the Nighthawk 17.5 >really balances this out nicely. > >Secondary stability comes in when you put a boat on >edge, has nothing to do with paddling. Your comments >about moving the Nighthawk 17.5 in order to stay >upright tell me that you might not have even paddled a >kayak before. The only boat that I've been in that >even comes close to your description is a Nordkapp, >which is one of the most advanced mass production >hulls on the market. An Aquila might come close. > >I've pasted detailed reviews here that you can find or >on paddling.net under the reviews section for the >17.5, they cover most of the details. > >Eddyline also just came out with a new hull, the >Phoenix. This will be a lower waterline boat, more in >the Greenland style for the big paddler. Since you're >shopping now, I would strongly advise you to check it >out if you don't need the massive volume of the 17.5. >There are days I wish for a more lively boat like a >Merlin XT but with a longer waterline and the Phoenix >is supposed to fit that bill. I haven't paddled the >Phoenix yet. > >I'm sorry about the ranting tone, but truly this was a >load of misinformation. And your reply is also misleading and you are outright calling me a liar sir. You had better stick with things that you know about, and quit lambasting people with experience with these kayaks and telling people they don't know what they are talking about. Who died and made you an expert? I have personally paddled a Pinta on Lake Superior (one of the Great Lakes in case you are geographically challenged) in 4 to 5 foot seas with 35+ mph wind gusts. Lots of white caps and coverging waves. I don't think I'd want to be sitting still in an Eddyline eating a sandwich in those conditions. The Pinta had a wonderful rudder that kept it on course and was amazingly easy to deploy and use. I was VERY impressed with the Pinta in every regard. It was well made, comfortable, and roomy: attributes I could never give the Nighthawk 16 or the Merlin XT. My point is, please don't be telling people that the Eddyline kayaks are "perfect" for them at any size, when indeed they are not. I would suggest to anyone reading this post, to PLEASE find a dealer that would let you paddle an Eddyline kayak first before you buy it. Sitting in one in store is fine, but testing the waters with it is the only way you will know if it's worth the $$ (and a lot of those too!) or not. Lots of better kayaks on the market for far less money IMHO. > >The Pinta is an extremely well finished boat. I >couldn't find one for demo when I bought the Nighthawk >17.5 or it would have been a tough choice. The Pinta >is the only other boat that I've been in that is >bigger than the Nighthawk and the Nighthawk on its own >is a huge boat. The Pinta is faster than the >Nighthawk 17.5 given the same paddler, but I feel like >I could outrun it in rough water. The Nighthawk >really stands out when things get nasty. > >Two years now of exposed outside storage and the >finish looks great. The Carbonlite from Eddyline >really continues to impress me.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: Nighthawk175 [Edit] Date Posted: 19:48:28 06/15/04 Tue >>I'm sorry about the ranting tone, but truly this was a >>load of misinformation. And your reply is also >misleading and you are outright calling me a liar >sir. I was implying that you were misleading people, either intentionally, maybe a Necky dealer or just because you don't know the boat you were talking about. >It >was well made, comfortable, and roomy: attributes I >could never give the Nighthawk 16 or the Merlin XT. See, you were referring to the Nighthawk 16, not the 17.5 which is an utterly different hull. The 16 is a high performance boat for small people...that would explain why you had issues with it. But as I suspected, you were talking about the wrong hull entirely. The 17.5 is nothing like the 16. As far as well made...these boats are very well made, not sure where you saw a problem with the quality. As far as comfortable...the 17.5 has room for a small child in the cockpit, again, you had the wrong hull. >My point is, please don't be telling people that the >Eddyline kayaks are "perfect" for them at any size, >when indeed they are not. I never did say that, I tell people to paddle anything extensively before they buy.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: Nighthawk175 [Edit] Date Posted: 19:49:54 06/15/04 Tue >>I'm sorry about the ranting tone, but truly this was a >>load of misinformation. >And your reply is also >misleading and you are outright calling me a liar >sir. I was implying that you were misleading people, either intentionally, maybe a Necky dealer or just because you don't know the boat you were talking about. >It >was well made, comfortable, and roomy: attributes I >could never give the Nighthawk 16 or the Merlin XT. See, you were referring to the Nighthawk 16, not the 17.5 which is an utterly different hull. The 16 is a high performance boat for small people...that would explain why you had issues with it. But as I suspected, you were talking about the wrong hull entirely. The 17.5 is nothing like the 16. As far as well made...these boats are very well made, not sure where you saw a problem with the quality. As far as comfortable...the 17.5 has room for a small child in the cockpit, again, you had the wrong hull. >My point is, please don't be telling people that the >Eddyline kayaks are "perfect" for them at any size, >when indeed they are not. I never did say that, I tell people to paddle anything extensively before they buy.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: Nick M [Edit] Date Posted: 00:02:46 06/16/04 Wed > >See, you were referring to the Nighthawk 16, not the >17.5 which is an utterly different hull. The 16 is a >high performance boat for small people...that would >explain why you had issues with it. But as I >suspected, you were talking about the wrong hull >entirely. The 17.5 is nothing like the 16. I was telling my experience with the two Eddyline kayaks that I have owned or used, the Nighthawk 16 and the Merlin XT. Both are 2001 models. And yes, they are small, cramped, and have flimsy seatbacks and are uncomfortable. At least you admit that they are for smaller people. I have seen a Nighthawk 17.5. It does have a much larger cockpit opening, but the seat back is still cheap, and the hardware is still cheap. Rather expensive boat for flea market fittings. And, the Carbonlite is still HEAVY as sin. So, I am glad you are happy with your boat. I wasn't. > >As far as well made...these boats are very well made, >not sure where you saw a problem with the quality. > >As far as comfortable...the 17.5 has room for a small >child in the cockpit, again, you had the wrong hull. > >>My point is, please don't be telling people that the >>Eddyline kayaks are "perfect" for them at any size, >>when indeed they are not.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: D Stumpf [Edit] Date Posted: 18:02:21 06/16/04 Wed > >> >>See, you were referring to the Nighthawk 16, not the >>17.5 which is an utterly different hull. The 16 is a >>high performance boat for small people...that would >>explain why you had issues with it. But as I >>suspected, you were talking about the wrong hull >>entirely. The 17.5 is nothing like the 16. I was >telling my experience with the two Eddyline kayaks >that I have owned or used, the Nighthawk 16 and the >Merlin XT. Both are 2001 models. And yes, they are >small, cramped, and have flimsy seatbacks and are >uncomfortable. At least you admit that they are for >smaller people. I have seen a Nighthawk 17.5. It >does have a much larger cockpit opening, but the seat >back is still cheap, and the hardware is still cheap. >Rather expensive boat for flea market fittings. And, >the Carbonlite is still HEAVY as sin. So, I am glad >you are happy with your boat. I wasn't. >> >>As far as well made...these boats are very well made, >>not sure where you saw a problem with the quality. >> >>As far as comfortable...the 17.5 has room for a small >>child in the cockpit, again, you had the wrong hull. >> >>>My point is, please don't be telling people that the >>>Eddyline kayaks are "perfect" for them at any size, >>>when indeed they are not. Wow, you guys are going at it! Nighthawk 17.5 vs Pinta! The saga continues! I agree with you both when you say "Don't buy it till you try it"! My best advice is to be patient, demo both boats, and make your decision based on personal experience. The problem is, depending on where you live, sometimes it's hard to do that. Here are my thoughts; I've been paddling for about 8 years now and have gone through 3 kayaks in the process of trying to find a boat that I was completely happy with. I go about 320 and I'm 6'3" with size 11 shoes. I'm kinda built like a football player, thick! I live in western Pennsylvania, so I've paddled small and large rivers, small lakes, and Great lakes with 3 foot waves. I haven't paddled in the Atlantic....yet! Anyway, I started out with a 2 seat rec, boat(Wilderness Systems Pamlico), went to single seat rec boat(Wilderness Systems Pungo), then bought a plastic touring type boat(Perception Captiva), and currently I own an Eddyline Nighthawk 17.5. 2 years ago, when I was shopping for a new boat I narrowed it down to the Pinta and the Nighthawk 17.5 I set out to try the 17.5 first because it was a bit cheaper and the closest dealer. Western PA is not really a kayak mecca so I had to drive to Benchmark in Columbus Ohio, the nearest Eddyline dealer(which is now closed), to try it out. They let me take it to a nearby lake and I paddled it for an hour or so. It was one fantastic paddle. I loved how it handled! It was fast! The Carbonlite was stiff (I didn't think it was unreasonably heavy)! It was great in both initial and secondary stability. I loved the no rudder/skeg design! The only thing that I would have added is a little higher deck with some thigh braces. I've got huge cycling thighs! I tossed around the idea of trying the Pinta before I made my decision but it was a 4 hour drive to Columbus and I had no idea when or where I could paddle the Pinta so I took the 17.5 home with me. I've never regretted that decision. Since then I have removed the "cheap and uncomfortable" adjustable seat back and just use the non-adjustable part that is fastened to the seat bottom. Last year I did have to replace the plastic bungee hardware. Eddyline told me it was a bad batch of plastic and sent me replacements right away. I fixed a crack in the hull from hitting a log or a rock or something (See my write up on it in this forum). Yes, Nighthawk175, I did hit it pretty hard. Carbonlite, like fiberglass, is tough but not indestructable. Once again Eddyline was super helpful and told me how to do the repair and sent me a repair kit within 2 days. What the heck...no boat is going to be "perfect". I guess what I'm getting at is, I'm sure the Pinta is a great boat. I've not paddled one, nor have I delt with Necky so I can't make a call on it. What I can say is that I persoally think the Nighthawk 17.5 is a great big guy boat and Eddyline is an excellent company to deal with. Remember, your not just buying the boat, you're also buying the great service that comes along with it.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Pinta or Nighthawk 17.5 ? Author: D Stumpf [Edit] Date Posted: 18:04:58 06/16/04 Wed > >> >>See, you were referring to the Nighthawk 16, not the >>17.5 which is an utterly different hull. The 16 is a >>high performance boat for small people...that would >>explain why you had issues with it. But as I >>suspected, you were talking about the wrong hull >>entirely. The 17.5 is nothing like the 16. I was >telling my experience with the two Eddyline kayaks >that I have owned or used, the Nighthawk 16 and the >Merlin XT. Both are 2001 models. And yes, they are >small, cramped, and have flimsy seatbacks and are >uncomfortable. At least you admit that they are for >smaller people. I have seen a Nighthawk 17.5. It >does have a much larger cockpit opening, but the seat >back is still cheap, and the hardware is still cheap. >Rather expensive boat for flea market fittings. And, >the Carbonlite is still HEAVY as sin. So, I am glad >you are happy with your boat. I wasn't. >> >>As far as well made...these boats are very well made, >>not sure where you saw a problem with the quality. >> >>As far as comfortable...the 17.5 has room for a small >>child in the cockpit, again, you had the wrong hull. >> >>>My point is, please don't be telling people that the >>>Eddyline kayaks are "perfect" for them at any size, >>>when indeed they are not. Wow! You guys are at it! Pinta vs. Nighthawk! The saga continues! I agree with you both when you say "Don't buy it till you try it"! My bWow, you guys are going at it! Nighthawk 17.5 vs Pinta! The saga cest advice is to be patient, demo both boats, and make your decision based on personal experience. The problem is, depending on where you live, sometimes it's hard to do that. Here are my thoughts; I've been paddling for about 8 years now and have gone through 3 kayaks in the process of trying to find a boat that I was completely happy with. I go about 320 and I'm 6'3" with size 11 shoes. I'm kinda built like a football player, thick! I live in western Pennsylvania, so I've paddled small and large rivers, small lakes, and Great lakes with 3 foot waves. I haven't paddled in the Atlantic....yet! Anyway, I started out with a 2 seat rec, boat(Wilderness Systems Pamlico), went to single seat rec boat(Wilderness Systems Pungo), then bought a plastic touring type boat(Perception Captiva), and currently I own an Eddyline Nighthawk 17.5. 2 years ago, when I was shopping for a new boat I narrowed it down to the Pinta and the Nighthawk 17.5 I set out to try the 17.5 first because it was a bit cheaper and the closest dealer. Western PA is not really a kayak mecca so I had to drive to Benchmark in Columbus Ohio, the nearest Eddyline dealer(which is now closed), to try it out. They let me take it to a nearby lake and I paddled it for an hour or so. It was one fantastic paddle. I loved how it handled! It was fast! The Carbonlite was stiff (I didn't think it was unreasonably heavy)! It was great in both initial and secondary stability. I loved the no rudder/skeg design! The only thing that I would have added is a little higher deck with some thigh braces. I've got huge cycling thighs! I tossed around the idea of trying the Pinta before I made my decision but it was a 4 hour drive to Columbus and I had no idea when or where I could paddle the Pinta so I took the 17.5 home with me. I've never regretted that decision. Since then I have removed the "cheap and uncomfortable" adjustable seat back and just use the non-adjustable part that is fastened to the seat bottom. Last year I did have to replace the plastic bungee hardware. Eddyline told me it was a bad batch of plastic and sent me replacements right away. I fixed a crack in the hull from hitting a log or a rock or something (See my write up on it in this forum). Yes, Nighthawk175, I did hit it pretty hard. Carbonlite, like fiberglass, is tough but not indestructable. Once again Eddyline was super helpful and told me how to do the repair and sent me a repair kit within 2 days. What the heck...no boat is going to be "perfect". I guess what I'm getting at is, I'm sure the Pinta is a great boat. I've not paddled one, nor have I delt with Necky so I can't make a call on it. What I can say is that I persoally think the Nighthawk 17.5 is a great big guy boat and Eddyline is an excellent company to deal with. Remember, your not just buying the boat, you're also buying the great service that comes along with it.