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Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
bytemangler
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 22:16:24 02/28/12 Tue
In reply to: Deadly Ernest 's message, "PayPal censorship and theft threats" on 22:03:51 02/28/12 Tue
 >G'day Wes,
>
>I don't know if you've been keeping an eye on the
>computer industry news but an important matter that
>could affect you is the actions by PayPal to decide to
>tell users what sort of business they can perform and
>to steal their money if PayPal object to the business.

Paypal rules just downloaded say:

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

1.

violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation.
2.

relate to transactions involving (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) stolen goods including digital and virtual goods (e) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.
3.

In the absence of a clearer definition of what they mean by "certain sexually oriented materials..." it's not clear yet that there is an issue.

Just my $0.02 worth.
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Replies:
[> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
dmitri
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 00:39:47 02/29/12 Wed
>In the absence of a clearer definition of what they
>mean by "certain sexually oriented materials..." it's
>not clear yet that there is an issue.
>
>Just my $0.02 worth

PayPal (owned by eBay) definitely thinks there's an issue. According to other posts I've seen, PayPal has put at least a few online book sellers on notice that unless they delete the types of books they sell, (rape, nonconsent, BDSM, pedo, etc.) Paypal will not process their payments for them. Smashwords, one of the sellers of e-books was one of these.

Wes doesn't write those kinds of stories.

Here's a recent post on the subject:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/violetblue/paypal-strong-arms-indie-ebook-publishers-over-erotic-content/1097

Dmitri.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
Deadly Ernest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 04:27:44 02/29/12 Wed
>>In the absence of a clearer definition of what they
>>mean by "certain sexually oriented materials..." it's
>>not clear yet that there is an issue.
>>
>>Just my $0.02 worth
>
>PayPal (owned by eBay) definitely thinks there's an
>issue. According to other posts I've seen, PayPal has
>put at least a few online book sellers on notice that
>unless they delete the types of books they sell,
>(rape, nonconsent, BDSM, pedo, etc.) Paypal will not
>process their payments for them. Smashwords, one of
>the sellers of e-books was one of these.
>
>Wes doesn't write those kinds of stories.
>
>Here's a recent post on the subject:
>
> >href="http://www.zdnet.com/blog/violetblue/paypal-stron
>g-arms-indie-ebook-publishers-over-erotic-content/1097"
>>http://www.zdnet.com/blog/violetblue/paypal-strong-arm
>s-indie-ebook-publishers-over-erotic-content/1097
>
>Dmitri.

G'day Dimitri,

Neither do I write or read that stuff. But the main point is what Wes and I are writing is NOTHING to do with any financial institution as long as it's legal, and then if it's not legal it's a matter for the police and not the bank. Also, even if what I do is against the law the bank has no right to steal my money.

This is the thin edge of a wedge of intolerance and improper totalitarian control. They have no right to be doing this, let alone making this decision and applying it to customer after years of allowing it.

Smashword and Lulu and many others are affected by this.

I object to this behaviour on principle. They have no right to push themselves into our lives like this. If the only way I can register my dislike is to go to others for the same service, well I will, and I'll encourage all I can to do the same.

Regards,

Ernest
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
Dmitri
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 11:28:17 02/29/12 Wed
>G'day Dimitri,
>
>Neither do I write or read that stuff. But the main
>point is what Wes and I are writing is NOTHING to do
>with any financial institution as long as it's legal,

The trouble is that "legal" means different things in different places, and is always subject to interpretation everywhere. Places like SOL with their recent shift in restrictions and site management are I think just aiming at lowest common denominator. The internet being global, they can't physically restrict someone in Europe differently than they can someone in Australia or the US. PayPal thinks they're doing the same thing? I don't know. I don't pretend to understand it.

Please understand, I'm on YOUR side in this.

>and then if it's not legal it's a matter for the
>police and not the bank.

I think both SOL and PayPal are doing the CYA (Cover Your Butt) thing, though not sure. It sounds pretty draconian, but it hasn't happened yet. There have been threats made, nothing else. See below.

>Also, even if what I do is
>against the law the bank has no right to steal my
>money.

I agree with that, totally. Doing something about it might not be easy, because there isn't another good replacement for PayPal in place for anyone to move to.

>This is the thin edge of a wedge of intolerance and
>improper totalitarian control. They have no right to
>be doing this, let alone making this decision and
>applying it to customer after years of allowing it.

They may be easing up on their restrictions. Here's a later article on the same situation:

http://www.the-digital-reader.com/2012/02/28/paypal-loosens-grip-on-erotica-ban/

>Smashword and Lulu and many others are affected by
>this.
>
>I object to this behaviour on principle.

Glad to hear there's at least one 'Strine with principles. With the obscenity laws down there, it sounds like we're trying to catch up to you up here.

>They have no
>right to push themselves into our lives like this. If
>the only way I can register my dislike is to go to
>others for the same service, well I will, and I'll
>encourage all I can to do the same.

I closed my PayPal account years ago because of nefarious business practices on their part (double billing and not admitting it or refunding the overcharges). I had to get my credit card company involved in order to make it stick. Personally, I don't see how anyone can use PayPal, but others must have had better experiences with them than I did.

Any company that requires PayPal, I don't buy anything from.

Dmitri
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
Deadly Ernest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:30:02 02/29/12 Wed
>>G'day Dimitri,
>>
>>Neither do I write or read that stuff. But the main
>>point is what Wes and I are writing is NOTHING to do
>>with any financial institution as long as it's legal,
>
>The trouble is that "legal" means different things in
>different places, and is always subject to
>interpretation everywhere. Places like SOL with their
>recent shift in restrictions and site management are I
>think just aiming at lowest common denominator. The
>internet being global, they can't physically restrict
>someone in Europe differently than they can someone in
>Australia or the US. PayPal thinks they're doing the
>same thing? I don't know. I don't pretend to
>understand it.
>
>Please understand, I'm on YOUR side
>in this.
>
>>and then if it's not legal it's a matter for the
>>police and not the bank.
>
>I think both SOL and PayPal are doing the CYA (Cover
>Your Butt) thing, though not sure. It sounds pretty
>draconian, but it hasn't happened yet. There have been
>threats made, nothing else. See below.
>

SOL has a reason to cover their butt as it appears on their servers and site. But NOTHING that they're objecting too is appearing on any PayPal server or site, so they have nothing exposed in this. This is just a case of some bully using his might to force his view on others.

>>Also, even if what I do is
>>against the law the bank has no right to steal my
>>money.
>
>I agree with that, totally. Doing something about it
>might not be easy, because there isn't another good
>replacement for PayPal in place for anyone to move to.
>
There are a couple but not so well known as yet.
>
>>This is the thin edge of a wedge of intolerance and
>>improper totalitarian control. They have no right to
>>be doing this, let alone making this decision and
>>applying it to customer after years of allowing it.
>
>They may be easing up on their restrictions. Here's a
>later article on the same situation:
>
> >href="http://www.the-digital-reader.com/2012/02/28/payp
>al-loosens-grip-on-erotica-ban/">http://www.the-digital
>-reader.com/2012/02/28/paypal-loosens-grip-on-erotica-b
>an/
>
Yeah just giving a bit more time and still objecting to where it's the theme but will let you mention it - mainly because the original wording would see the Bible banned. It's still a change of policy after establishing business and in an area they have no right to jumping in to.

>>Smashword and Lulu and many others are affected by
>>this.
>>
>>I object to this behaviour on principle.
>
>Glad to hear there's at least one 'Strine with
>principles. With the obscenity laws down there, it
>sounds like we're trying to catch up to you up here.
>
>>They have no
>>right to push themselves into our lives like this. If
>>the only way I can register my dislike is to go to
>>others for the same service, well I will, and I'll
>>encourage all I can to do the same.
>
>I closed my PayPal account years ago because of
>nefarious business practices on their part (double
>billing and not admitting it or refunding the
>overcharges). I had to get my credit card company
>involved in order to make it stick. Personally, I
>don't see how anyone can use PayPal, but others must
>have had better experiences with them than I did.
>
>Any company that requires PayPal, I don't buy anything
>from.
>
>Dmitri
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
Dmitri
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:51:30 02/29/12 Wed
>SOL has a reason to cover their butt as it appears on
>their servers and site. But NOTHING that they're
>objecting too is appearing on any PayPal server or
>site, so they have nothing exposed in this. This is
>just a case of some bully using his might to force his
>view on others.

Reading between the lines, along with what is actually stated, it seems to be a CYA move as I stated before. Mark Coker at Smashwords (the owner) seems to indicate that if (when?) it happens, all other online transaction services like PayPal will follow suit. Changing to Dwolla or another service will just delay the process minimally.

The only pressure tactic I see that you and I can do is switch transaction services, not use PayPal (which I already do). With the experience I had at PayPal (mid 2000s?) I'm leary of trying any online transaction service. And if it goes through, it won't change a thing.

We'll have to see what happens I guess.

Dmitri
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
Deadly Ernest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:13:46 02/29/12 Wed
>>SOL has a reason to cover their butt as it appears on
>>their servers and site. But NOTHING that they're
>>objecting too is appearing on any PayPal server or
>>site, so they have nothing exposed in this. This is
>>just a case of some bully using his might to force his
>>view on others.
>
>Reading between the lines, along with what is actually
>stated, it seems to be a CYA move as I stated before.
>Mark Coker at Smashwords (the owner) seems to indicate
>that if (when?) it happens, all other online
>transaction services like PayPal will follow suit.
>Changing to Dwolla or another service will just delay
>the process minimally.
>
>The only pressure tactic I see that you and I can do
>is switch transaction services, not use PayPal (which
>I already do). With the experience I had at PayPal
>(mid 2000s?) I'm leary of trying any online
>transaction service. And if it goes through, it won't
>change a thing.
>
>We'll have to see what happens I guess.
>
>Dmitri

G'day,

I don't see where he's getting that idea he needs to cover his arse, except for the fact the end owner of PayPal contested the election for the Governor of California a while back on a far right wing ticket and probably feels he needs to show he's being proactive in pushing their agenda. There is no current US legislation or proposed US legislation to justify this action by PayPal.

In fact, their threats to take the money constitutes a crime in some other countries they operate in and taking the money is clearly a crime in many others too.

Regards,

Ernest
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
Dmitri
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:41:13 02/29/12 Wed
>I don't see where he's

Who is "he?"

>getting that idea he needs to
>cover his arse,

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I meant that PayPal is the one covering their corporate butt by doing this before they run into problems later.

>except for the fact the end owner of
>PayPal contested the election for the Governor of
>California a while back on a far right wing ticket and
>probably feels he needs to show he's being proactive
>in pushing their agenda. There is no current US
>legislation or proposed US legislation to justify this
>action by PayPal.

You're under the impression that actions require a reason, much less a good one?

>In fact, their threats to take the money constitutes a
>crime in some other countries they operate in and
>taking the money is clearly a crime in many others too.

I would think it would here, also.

We should probably take this offlist. You can click on my name above and to the left and get my e-mail address after some captcha shennanigans.

Dmitri
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
Deadly Ernest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:44:01 02/29/12 Wed
>>I don't see where he's
>
>Who is "he?"
>
The HE is the guy that owns and runs PayPal and issued this directive for PayPal to do this in the first place.

>>getting that idea he needs to
>>cover his arse,
>
>Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I meant that PayPal is
>the one covering their corporate butt by doing this
>before they run into problems later.
>
PayPal is acting on the orders of their big boss.

>>except for the fact the end owner of
>>PayPal contested the election for the Governor of
>>California a while back on a far right wing ticket and
>>probably feels he needs to show he's being proactive
>>in pushing their agenda. There is no current US
>>legislation or proposed US legislation to justify this
>>action by PayPal.
>
>You're under the impression that actions require a
>reason, much less a good one?

People have reasons for doing things, sometimes those reasons make no sense to anyone else, but they have a reason to begin with. In this case PayPal are stepping well outside where they have a moral or accepted communal right to act, possibly outside the legal boundaries too, to force their ideas of their moral code on others. PayPal is supposed to be a business acting within a certain area of industry and this action is NOT within the boundaries of that industry.
>
>>In fact, their threats to take the money constitutes a
>>crime in some other countries they operate in and
>>taking the money is clearly a crime in many others
>too.
>
>I would think it would here, also.
>
>We should probably take this offlist. You can click
>on my name above and to the left and get my e-mail
>address after some captcha shennanigans.
>
>Dmitri
[> [> Subject: Re: PayPal censorship and theft threats


Author:
Deadly Ernest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 04:21:39 02/29/12 Wed
>>G'day Wes,
>>
>>I don't know if you've been keeping an eye on the
>>computer industry news but an important matter that
>>could affect you is the actions by PayPal to decide to
>>tell users what sort of business they can perform and
>>to steal their money if PayPal object to the business.
>
>Paypal rules just downloaded say:
>
>You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
>
> 1.
>
> violate any law, statute, ordinance or
>regulation.
> 2.
>
> relate to transactions involving (a) narcotics,
>steroids, certain controlled substances or other
>products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b)
>drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote,
>facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal
>activity, (d) stolen goods including digital and
>virtual goods (e) items that promote hate, violence,
>racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a
>crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g)
>items that infringe or violate any copyright,
>trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other
>proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction,
>(h) certain sexually oriented materials or services,
>(i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or
>accessories, or (j) ,certain weapons or knives
>regulated under applicable law.
> 3.
>
>In the absence of a clearer definition of what they
>mean by "certain sexually oriented materials..." it's
>not clear yet that there is an issue.
>
>Just my $0.02 worth.

G'day,

It comes down to the definitions of obscene - one where the PayPal people will decide what's obscene - they've put a lot of publishers on notice that certain types of books which are legal to print and buy in the USA are obscene as far as PayPal are concerned and the publisher MUST IMMEDIATELY remove those books from their lists or have ALL their funds stolen by PayPal and their account closed.

Now, I don't read or write those sort of books, neither does Wes, but PayPal is a banking operation and I can understand them not wanting to be involved in anything against the law, but this is way beyond that and once they're allowed to get away with this, who knows what else may be censored and subject to theft - books or items that don't fit their idea of a correct political agenda - no thank, the world does NOT need another Hitler or Stalin.

Another aspect is the publishers had those books on sale and been dealing with PayPal for years, and only now is PayPal deciding they object. In short, they're changing the goal posts in an area they have no right to be involved in after years of saying they're OK.

Regards,

Ernest

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