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Subject: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: AllisterH [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 17:49:29 04/02/10 Fri Hi..new poster...but have been reading since Jon's story and went back... Am I the only one more angry at Karin than Pete? In reading it, Wes explictly mentions that Karin was trying to raise Crystal as if AL was her father... Jon even mentions an argument that happened where Karin suggested whitewater rafting and that actually got me more disgusted at Karin (who brings up their ex love "spot" to their significant other?) My question is...does anyone think Karin was as poor a wife to Pete as Pete is supposedly was to Crystal (and even there...I'm not seeing what Pete did wrong..he sacrificed a lot to send his kids to school) Indeed...I'm not sure how many men would actually stick around and raise a daughter when the mother is explcitly undermining you... [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: GeorgeTheCar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:07:14 04/02/10 Fri Its hard to look at their relationship and second guess. I never had the sense that Karin did anything other than support Crystal. If Pete had been an active guy who had physical plans for Crystal I might agree but he was very pleased with Jon's acceptance of what he did as a career, his desire to problem solve issues from work and get recognition from his son to validate his own choices. That type of "living in your head life" was never in the cars for Crystal never mind any gender career issues. I would certainly agree that both Karin and Pete might have developed better communications and dispute skills to deal with their frustrations in life rather than merely wait for the other to resolve their own issues.

[> [> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: GeorgeTheCar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:19:36 04/02/10 Fri If Karin could be faulted it might be for, even subconsciously, settling for less than her dream if she even knew what her dream was or even was possible. On the other hand, the same may be said of Pete. In a changing world, all that may have happened is that the next generation was afforded opportunities that the previous one didn't have and Crystal was ready to grab them and in some way her same gender parent was able to grab a little of it on her coattails.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: AllisterH [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:45:56 04/02/10 Fri >If Karin could be faulted it might be for, even >subconsciously, settling for less than her dream if >she even knew what her dream was or even was possible. > >On the other hand, the same may be said of Pete. > >In a changing world, all that may have happened is >that the next generation was afforded opportunities >that the previous one didn't have and Crystal was >ready to grab them and in some way her same gender >parent was able to grab a little of it on her >coattails. But what about the fact that she EXPLCITLY tried to raise Crystal as she thought Al would want to be... Indeed, one of the strange things I find about criticisms of Pete is that he's faulted for wanting his daughter to be interested in what HE"S interested in. Say what? It wasn't THAT long ago that a father even trying to encourage his daughter to got to college was considered "nouveau". My main issue with the story is that it comes across as that Crystal could do no wrong and EVERYTHING was Pete's fauly and in real life, I don't see it... For example, if say Crystal and her new preacher husband have a kid and he OR she decides to become an investment banker and work on wall street, I seriously doubt Crystal is going to be happy about it...

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: GeorgeTheCar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:34:09 04/02/10 Fri "Explicity" isn't a word that has a lot of resonance in my memory from reading the books. When I get around to rereading those books I will try and catch the reference.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: mallory [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:41:11 04/02/10 Fri Despite being male and therefore perhaps I should take Pete's part (and to a small degree I can understand him) I'm sorry but no... Karin is portayed as until later years not knowing that Crystal was NOT Pete's daughter (though as time went on she began to wonder). Before and after that she usually tried to do what was best for her daughter. Admirable in my view. You state is that Pete is faulted for wanting his daughter to be interested in what HE'S interested in. Not a problem except his interests seem inceredibly narrow and he comes across as intolerant of any other options. Of course we don't get his viewpoint and I can accept there are two sides (or more) to every story but from the three perspectives we see, he's intolerant and unforgiving. >>> "It wasn't THAT long ago that a father even trying to encourage his daughter to got to college was considered "nouveau"." I do not understand this statement. Pete actively refuses to spend decent money on either of his daughters education. Unlike John's... >>> "My main issue with the story is that it comes across as that Crystal could do no wrong and EVERYTHING was Pete's fauly and in real life, I don't see it..." No of course not everything is Pete's fault. But most of it is. No Crystal isn't perfect and she isn't portrayed that way either. That is what I love about Wes's books. People are human and fallible. On the other hand until meeting her real Father and the reconciliation with her Mother she had a raw deal. How she dealt with it may not have been perfect, but who would?

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: ralph058 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:22:44 04/03/10 Sat >It wasn't THAT long ago that a father even trying to >encourage his daughter to got to college was >considered "nouveau". I have a problem with this statement. When I graduated from high school fifty years ago, it was pretty common for fathers to support their daughters going on to college. It was a very small rural town, pretty much like the area of the stories. Most of the better off girls from the Chicago area that spent their summers in the north woods were going on to college. "Noveau" perhaps early that me, but certainly Pete would have been the exception rather than the rule in Chrystal's time.

[> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: GeorgeTheCar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:25:44 04/02/10 Fri The other thing to remember is "That's the way it needed to be to make Wes' story work" As my father used to say when asked about a movie, "that's the director wanted it." As we so often hear at the end of a movie or tv show, "no real lives were impacted by the writing of this novel" I quite enjoy Wes' work and recommend it to allwho will listen.

[> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: GeorgeTheCar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:41:01 04/02/10 Fri Other than Wes my favourite fiction author is Dick Francis. Dick always offers insight into the human condition with his suspense. One book, I forget the title, contained the line, "We see the world through our own eyes and justify our behavior by expecting others to act as we do."

[> [> Subject: Sick Francis (was Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: byte mangler [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:44:18 04/02/10 Fri >Other than Wes my favourite fiction author is Dick >Francis. Dick always offers insight into the human >condition with his suspense. Unfortunately, the late Dick Francis. Let's hope that Felix is able to continue with the good stuff.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Dick Francis (was Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: Kilobytemangler [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:45:18 04/02/10 Fri oops - typo in last subject:-(

[> [> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: Gil [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:59:07 04/03/10 Sat >Other than Wes my favourite fiction author is Dick >Francis. Dick always offers insight into the human >condition with his suspense. > >One book, I forget the title, contained the line, "We >see the world through our own eyes and justify our >behavior by expecting others to act as we do." I was his neighbor while we lived in the UK. His books are all filled with testaments to the human condition, and when he talks with people he drops a lot of great gems. He told me once that he "accepts people at face value until they prove otherwise."

[> [> [> Subject: Deal with honour, sleep in peace! Author: GeorgeTheCar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:03:46 04/03/10 Sat One of my favourite quotes from "Straight!" I am envious! I only met him once, briefly, and felt I knew him through his books Nice to have my impressions confirmed

[> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal - Not at all, a real deal) Author: Deadly Ernest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:46:00 04/02/10 Fri >Hi..new poster...but have been reading since Jon's >story and went back... > >Am I the only one more angry at Karin than Pete? In >reading it, Wes explictly mentions that Karin was >trying to raise Crystal as if AL was her father... > >Jon even mentions an argument that happened where >Karin suggested whitewater rafting and that actually >got me more disgusted at Karin (who brings up their ex >love "spot" to their significant other?) > >My question is...does anyone think Karin was as poor a >wife to Pete as Pete is supposedly was to Crystal (and >even there...I'm not seeing what Pete did wrong..he >sacrificed a lot to send his kids to school) > >Indeed...I'm not sure how many men would actually >stick around and raise a daughter when the mother is >explcitly undermining you... G'day, I think you are reading in much more than was written or anyone else sees. Karin did the motherly thing and supported ALL her children in what they did, this was more so with Crystal as she was less of what Pete wanted her to be than the others. This is very standard behaviour for a mother. My mother was blind since her early teens, and never a sports person, but she totally supported us kids in sport - even to the extent of spending years helping to create local sports associations for sports we were interested in playing but had no local representation or facilities at the time. Crystal and Pete had very different ideas on what was fun, and came to loggerheads more often than the others. It's also common when the first child has issues with one of the parents, the younger kids notice this and try to avoid those same issues and troubles, so it's natural for Crystal / Pete conflicts to be more common than with the others. When we get around to Jon's life, we find he's the apple of Pete's eye as he's doing what Pete sees as a fitting way of life. But the moment Jon does something Pete disagrees with, Pete go nuts. That's because he's a controlling person who wants full control of the others. It's their NOT doing exactly what Pete wants that causes the troubles, not what ever else it is they're doing - it's just not what Pete wants. In a way I think Karin is partly at fault for not seeing Pete for what he was and doing something about it earlier, but I can see how she wouldn't see or act, because of her emotional involvement with him making her a bit blind. I know real life people like both Karin and Pete, and Crystal. Ernest

[> Subject: Re: Pete Chladek dealt a raw deal? Author: GeorgeTheCar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:19:22 04/03/10 Sat Perhaps another way to look at it is that Pete's ire is rooted in his recognition that he is much less adventurous than his wife and eldest daughter and the regret that much of life is passing him by and he has no way to reach out and grab it as it passes.

[> [> Subject: Re: Pete Chladek dealt a raw deal? Author: Dmitri [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:12:43 04/03/10 Sat >Perhaps another way to look at it is that Pete's ire >is rooted in his recognition that he is much less >adventurous than his wife and eldest daughter and the >regret that much of life is passing him by and he has >no way to reach out and grab it as it passes. I'm sure those people exist, though I'm not sure I agree that Pete is one of them. It's basically just different interests. I happen to be more like Crystal in many ways, and I don't care about a lot of what excites "modern man." Football, basketball, hockey, that sort of thing doesn't interest me at all. I do happen to do the canoeing, kayaking, rafting thing, along with some backpacking, hiking, etc., but again it's just different interests. I just don't think Pete is interested in "exciting" physical activity. He's interested in the mind games, specifically as they relate to his brand of engineering. I doubt he even cares much about other types of engineering. I care about some of the engineering aspects of things as they relate to canoeing and kayaking, even did them on and off for many years when I worked in the industry. I'd rather do the activity than the engineering for it, though. That's me. Dmitri

[> Subject: Re: Pete Chledak (a raw deal) Author: George Thecar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:50:59 04/04/10 Sun Pete, an equal opportunity snark! C31 "I always thought that Crystal was crazy for wanting to come to this Godforsaken Siberia of a wasteland, and Nanci, you must be, too."

[> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: kzin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:20:05 04/04/10 Sun >Hi..new poster...but have been reading since Jon's >story and went back... > >Am I the only one more angry at Karin than Pete? In >reading it, Wes explictly mentions that Karin was >trying to raise Crystal as if AL was her father... We have seen the family from Crystal's, Karin's, and Jon's POVs, so it is interesting to wonder what it looks like from Pete's POV. But where is this "explicit mention"? I don't recall it being that way at all. Instead, Karin gradually, after several years, begins to realize that Crystal probably is not Pete's daughter when she sees how unlike Pete she is. >Jon even mentions an argument that happened where >Karin suggested whitewater rafting and that actually >got me more disgusted at Karin (who brings up their ex >love "spot" to their significant other?) Not as bad as it sounds because Karin did not think there was any chance that Al was still at the Canyon, and Karin's interest in the Canyon and rafting was not just because of Al. >My question is...does anyone think Karin was as poor a >wife to Pete as Pete is supposedly was to Crystal (and >even there...I'm not seeing what Pete did wrong..he >sacrificed a lot to send his kids to school) Clearly Karin and Pete were never all that great a match for each other. Karin probably went out of her way to hide the incompatibility before marriage, that's her error. What did Pete do wrong? He may have been a good father early on, but when the time came to start letting Jon go, he does the opposite, and when Nanci needs guidance, he spoils and ignores her. And he reacts to all problems by getting grumpy and refusing to listen to anyone but himself. >Indeed...I'm not sure how many men would actually >stick around and raise a daughter when the mother is >explcitly undermining you... But was she? The evidence you see for this theory is invisible to me so far. Plenty of men have been good fathers to girls that are not genetically theirs.

[> Subject: Re: Pete Chediak (a raw deal) Author: George Thecar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:07:15 04/11/10 Sun Re-read the book. Karin didn't think about it in the early days, only as their daughter grew up did she begin to have doubts. I guess I just see it through different eyes.