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Subject: Rules, pulling guard & submission not ending the match, & 80% ending submissions


Author:
James Speight
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Date Posted: 09:38:58 10/28/04 Thu

Sorry guys I started a new list. the other started as the dream team? Then to Jay then to rules so here it is.

Look in close matches what is done to get it to the ground, will determine the match. And that is the takedown. Guys that are better at takedowns don’t pull guard, or at least they will not if they don’t have to. Guys that can’t takedown pull guard real fast.

I use the guard just as much as anyone else does, I like the guard. But if I want a passive takedown, because I am afraid of losing points to a takedown or someone getting a better position on their takedown then. I need to know that I will pay a price for it if can’t make this strategy pay 0ff for me.

What happens in UFC if you pull guard and can’t submit the other guy? The other guy beats the crap out of you and wins!

A year ago I went to the CASCA-GROSSA in Atlanta and they had a 2 point penalty for pulling guard. And what happen, no one pulled guard. I was really impressed. I saw some spectacular takedowns from BJJ kids and adults at this event. Most of my kids lost the takedowns points, because they weren’t ready for that much aggressiveness in this sport on takedowns.

Imagine that a rule that really made the matches more entertaining. That is unheard of in this business.

It was a good thing.

And I learnt that if you are good at the guard even if you mess up on a legitimate takedown you can get the guard anyway. But we have to push our students to try to do a real takedown, at least after the first month of training.

Its not 1990's anymore, grappling is more that just a great guard, or pulling guard to get guard, wrestlers are dictating the fights now because they have the takedowns and the top control and the defense.

Grappling is a takedown, positional and submission sport. And if you can’t beat your opponent on the last two points the first should dictate who wins, who did a real takedown? or who gave up and pulled guard? if you give up on a part of the match you should be penalized.

In a few weeks my son is taking a break from my training to do what? AAU Wrestling it is an important part of his game.

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Rules, pulling guard & submission not ending the match, & 80% ending submissions


Author:
Steve Loftin
[Edit]

Date Posted: 09:10:40 10/29/04 Fri

IMO, good takedown attempts are important in winning a match. It's an aggression thing. If I see a guy who is constantly trying to shoot in or work a trip I will give the guy an edge on aggressiveness right there. It is really important to get a takedown, but it is also just as important to make solid attempts.

It is very easy to spot a half hearted takedown attempt. Anyone with a good eye can see that.

Moral of the story = If I ever judge a match, I look for the aggressiveness on the takedowns. Keep that in mind, competitors. ;)


James... I am glad that you are getting Jay involved with that. Is he gonna be training with the Buccanneers? I hear that they are a great youth team and have good solid coaches. He should enjoy it very much. Just get him to put the submissions out of his mind for a bit. A lot of his Jiu Jitsu will cross over well into Folkstyle wrestling. Let him concentrate on working his top game and you'll see a drastic improvement by the end of the wrestling season.

Steve

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[> [> Subject: Re: Rules, pulling guard & submission not ending the match, & 80% ending submissions


Author:
whitfield
[Edit]

Date Posted: 01:08:30 10/30/04 Sat

i was a wrestler for a long time before i was in bjj... i didnt say i was any good at it or anything but it has certainly helped. i feel that i have a pretty decent guard but i would much rather be on top in a match

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Rules, pulling guard & submission not ending the match, & 80% ending submissions


Author:
whitfield
[Edit]

Date Posted: 01:09:40 10/30/04 Sat

also... wrestlers should be penalized just as much for backing away from someone's guard and refusing to engage on the ground as bjj guys are for pulling guard to refuse the stand up game

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[> [> [> [> Subject: "wrestlers should be penalized for backing away..refusing to engage on the ground" True


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:35:47 11/01/04 Mon

"wrestlers should be penalized just as much for backing away from someone's guard and refusing to engage on the ground"

that is very true, and at the Gracie World event in Ohio i think they did deduct points for that.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "wrestlers should be penalized for backing away..refusing to engage on the ground" True


Author:
Steve Loftin
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:40:20 11/01/04 Mon

That does make sense. But it ain't right to let someone score unless they engage on the ground. If a guy keeps backing out, it doesn't impress me much.


Steve

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: "wrestlers should be penalized for backing away..refusing to engage on the ground" True


Author:
Jesse
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:02:52 11/01/04 Mon

definatly good points made here, i've got a little different angle on the rules though.

my advice is to prepare for everything.
if someone wants to pull guard, DON'T let them, and if someone wants to back out of your guard, DON't let them do that either, train for these things, don't make rules against them. the fewer rules the better, once you restrict the match, you restrict the evolution of jiujitsu.


as a side note-- i would quit trying to re-invent the wheel and just use another venue's rules, gracie federation, naga, ADCC, whatever is most appropriate for skill levels, time constraints, etc. no one set of rules will make everyone happy. the rules do shape the match but so what, this is a sport, not a deathmatch. and as far as a dull match is concerned; any sort of stalling enforcement at all would solve that problem. i've been in about a dozen tournaments and seen my fair share of matches around here, i have never seen stalling called once.


. . . imo ;)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Then let the referee/or judge make the choice. Like boxing, less rules & points right


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:56:08 11/02/04 Tue

Then let the referee/or judge make the choice. Like boxing, less rules & points right.

Then if you have a judge that likes the guard work, you win if you just do that, you have a judge that likes the wrestling take down and top control, you win there if you just do that.

This (post) started with a small part of submission wrestling of pulling a standing guard, with out attempting a take down.

You know it looks like a squirrel on the side of a pine tree, trying to get a nut. It doesn’t help out our sport when we allow fighters to do this.

I know it is a sport not a "deathmatch." but Remember we pride ourselves that we as submission grapplers or jiu-jitsu grapplers are reality based self-defense practitioners. If I get jumped on the street by a drunk I am not going for a suspended guard.

We need to work on our takedowns guys and not encourage passive attacks to stop takedowns.

but that is just my point of view.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Then let the referee/or judge make the choice. Like boxing, less rules & points right


Author:
James
[Edit]

Date Posted: 14:00:02 11/02/04 Tue


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Then let the referee/or judge make the choice. Like boxing, less rules & points right


Author:
Billy D
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:39:24 11/02/04 Tue

How ever you make the rules,people are going to learn to play them.So what if some one pulls gaurd or backs away after a take down.Work on that part of your game.Quit crying and train harder you sissys.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: OK billy who's the sissy


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 20:17:15 11/02/04 Tue


OK billy one day you want me to be a sissy or your sissy, the next day you don’t want me to be a sissy. Is it that NO means YES and YES means YES thing again? I did the garden hose, shattered glass, enema kit, with you. Didn’t that count for anything?


This sissy has to go train, bye.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: OK billy who's the sissy


Author:
Simon
[Edit]

Date Posted: 07:43:03 11/03/04 Wed

There is much to be said for a man who openly admits his freakiness on a public forum. :-) You boys are having too much fun here.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Reality on the mat, Fantasy....


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:41:37 11/03/04 Wed

Reality on the mat, Fantasy off the mat.
Or is it the other way around?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Reality on the mat, Fantasy....


Author:
Billy D
[Edit]

Date Posted: 22:44:44 11/03/04 Wed

Yea,I know I'm an idiot.But for real,if you change the rules,people will still find a boring,safer,way to play with in them.
Make a set of rules,and let the competitors deal with it.If someone keeps getting taken down and having the guy back away,shame on them;not on the guy thats scoring points.Granted stalling while you are in top position or in someones guard is gay and should be penalized,but pulling guard or backing away from a take down is part of the game.
I just wish some one would come up with a set of rules that everyone would go by instead of having rules vary from tournament to tournament.
How can an outsider to the sport or a new guy to the sport take it seriously if every tournament has different rules and everybody bitches about them?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Reality on the mat, Fantasy....


Author:
Steve Loftin
[Edit]

Date Posted: 08:01:31 11/04/04 Thu

I think the main problem with tourney rules is the fact that a majority of grapplers are crossing over from BJJ where the points game is the norm. The submission wrestlers who come from a no gi background aren't used to the BJJ style rules and try to compensate the event rules to meet their own needs.

I come from a non BJJ background, although I incorporate some if its principles into my training. Personally, I hate the 2 points for sweep, 4 points for mount, etc etc. I think that is stupid. It gets too complicated and too easy for someone to stall and/or rack up points for a less than dominant position.

Of all the systems I have seen, I really like the MACS system the best. It does not discriminate against the style of the grappler, but rather lets the grappler decide on how he/she will dominate the match. It is based on agressiveness of action and amount of control. MACS rules always stress the submission. I know I may be bias, but that is my opinion. And I have heard nothing but praise for our scoring system. These rules help to promote fast paced, exciting matches with a clear path to victory...the competitor just has to be aggressive in competition.


Steve

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Reality on the mat, Fantasy....


Author:
Guy
[Edit]

Date Posted: 09:46:12 11/04/04 Thu

Steve, could you refresh our memory of what the MACS scorying system entails. You may have eluded to the rules in a previous post, but for the sake of those folks reading this thread could you explain it again. You talked about scoring matches based on aggressiveness. But, in theory what if both competitors are equally agressive. What ultimately determines the winner in that situation? If we are talking about submission grappling, then the ultimate objective is to submit your opponent. If the competitor is not working for a submission, then they aren't attempting to accomplish the objective of this type of competition. That's like a judo guy not going for a throw or a wrestler not attempting to pin the guy. I think we would all agree that watching a match where both competitors are constantly attempting submissions is far more enjoyable than someone just trying to rack up points.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Reality on the mat, Fantasy....


Author:
Steve Loftin
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:34:55 11/04/04 Thu

No sweat, Guy.

MACS scoring system is pretty much open ended. No points are awarded per say, but you gain either a major or minor advantage depending on the circumstance. The major advantage would equate to about 2 points and the minor advantage would be 1 point.

Aggressiveness is a key factor. Let's use the takedown as an example. You have the FAT grappler (played by me) and the SKINNY grappler (played by Wootang). Fatty shoots a double leg on skinny and gets a takedown. However, Fatty doesn't have good control and ends up in Skinny's guard. This is a MINOR advantage for Fatty...basically ONE tally mark in his favor.

Next, Fatty attempts to pass the guard and aggressively advance his position...BUT...Skinny is too good for him. Skinny immediately locks in on a triangle and Fatty is forced to defend because he is in serious danger. Fatty successfully defends the triangle and ends up in side mount. Skinny gets TWO tally marks for an aggressive submission attempt that had to be defended above all else.

Current Tally:

Fatty = 1 (minor takedown)

Skinny = 2 (major submission attempt)


The match rolls on.....with Fatty in side mount, he attempts to advance his position by going to mount. He takes mount on Skinny and gets ONE tally mark for this change in position. He immediately goes for an armbar. But it doesn't work because he is FAT and can't move very well. So he will get ONE minor advantage tally mark for attempting a submission.

Scorecard:

Fatty = 3 (1 minor takedown, 1 minor position change, 1 minor submission attempt)

Skinny = 2 (1 major submission attempt)


The match continues...Now Fatty is flat on his back with Skinny trying to pass the legs (which he does with ease). Skinny gains ONE minor tally for this advancement in position. Now Skinny is in sidemount as time expires in the match.

Final Tally:

Fatty = 3 (1 minor takedown, 1 minor position change, 1 minor submission attempt)

Skinny = 3 (1 major submission attempt, 1 minor position change)


So now since the match is a tie, the guys get an overtime and start from scratch.

Weak attempts at anything are not rewarded. An "I almost tripped him" takedown will not get you anything. An "I was setting up for an armlock" will not get you anything. The offensive move MUST be executed in a proficient manner. Falling back for a leglock without having proper control will get nothing but a chuckle from the ref. The moves must be aggressive, offensive, and controlled.

The guard is considered a static position under the MACS system. You get no reward for putting your opponent inside the guard. However, if you sweep from the guard you will get a MINOR advantage if it is a clean reversal.

Now, some will say, "Why only a MINOR advantage for a successful sweep?" And I will reply, "Because, a sweep will not actually damage your opponent" (unless you do the shin kick to the ear sweep...lol). A sweep is simply an advancement in position and the MACS system is not a position based system. It is a submission system. Therefore we value the submission and takedown attempts at a higher level because they are used to strategically and immediately advance or end the fight.

You can KO someone with a good takedown. You can break something with a good sub attempt. A sweep, escape, reversal, will only advance the position so that you CAN attempt a submission or takedown.

Personally, if I have two guys who are very close on tallied points and who are fighting their hearts out, I will send it into an overtime if the marks are different by a single point. That is a close match. But if there is a person ahead by a major advantage (2 tallies), I have to give the match to them. Even if it was a headbanger of a match, a MAJOR advantage mark has to be respected.

I have reffed matches that were textbook dominations of an opponent. One guy took his opponent down with a MAJOR double, got side control, took mount (MINOR), and finished with a tight, tight, tight,(tighter than my wallet)straight armlock (MAJOR). The match ended with a submission so it was a no brainer. However, the aggressor racked up 2 MAJORs and 1 MINOR (basically 5 points) in less than 45 seconds. So if time had expired then it would have been a clean sweep of 5-0.

If there are any more questions about the system, please feel free to ask. It ain't no problem to explain stuff.


Steve

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: MACS System


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:43:43 11/04/04 Thu

First of all we use the word points, but it is a system for picking a winner when no tap out occurs. So you as a coach should be warned if you try to count points and encourage your fighter to stall, you may be surprised when you let us, the referees and judges, make the decision of the match.

It is about where you are at in the match and where you are going that determines the match. The idea is get a takedown, get control then get a submission, end the match. Any other mind set you are playing another game.

It is basically one point for a minor advantage.
And two points for a major advantage.

We have major takedowns. Takedown not ending up in the guard.
Example Double leg to mount or side mount.

Then we have minor takedowns Takedown ending up in the guard.
Example Double leg to Guard.

We have Major advantage Advances on positions.
Example Guard Pass to side or mount with control.
Sweep with control on mount or side mount.

Then we have minor advantage.
Pass half guard to side or mount with control.

Note: some positions like knee on belly and side mount to mount or back to side mount is considered a lateral change, no points for lateral changes.


This is where it changes a lot

We have Major advantage minor advantage for submissions. (It is up to the ref)
And in close, not necessary tied, matches this often determines the win, just depends on how close these submissions of being completed.

Putting more weight on the submissions rather than just the takedowns and positions gives the guy on the bottom who can’t sweep the guy the chance to get points for submissions attempts from the bottom.

And is someone passes the guard during a submission or sweep attempt their pass points are washed but the others points.

Most MACS matches are ended by submissions, and very few goes to an overtime match, do to a tie.

Another thing no point flip cards. You can’t count points because that only encourages stalling. And sometimes the points have different weight, If you did every thing you could to dominate and submit your opponent the score don’t matter, if you can’t submit your opponent you have to get someone else(judges) to make the decision of the match.

Really if you don’t submit, you really have a tie, that the MACS system and Judges have to break. That’s the bottom line.

Last November Steve and I did a in-school event and one of the coaches wasn’t paying attention during the rules session, during his first fight he was saying “get knee’, now “back to side”, “back to mount” over and over again, then they ran the clock out. Well in the early part of the match the other guy had got three great submissions attempts from the guard, but they didn’t finish. The submission guy won the match. And the coach didn’t understand, Steve told him that your guy didn’t attempt even one submission attempt. The coach was real nice. But next match he was yelling “don’t wait submit him! Submit him!”

It changes the sport

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Funny story about watching the point flip cards.


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:01:33 11/04/04 Thu

I never watch the flip cards at other events, I always push my students to push the match to submission rather than stalling to win by points. We may lose more matches at first but, I think it makes a better grappler and winning a match without tring to submit the other don’t make sense to me.

Grapplemania this year timothy had a tough first match and he won the match by one point, I didn’t look at the flip card until the time was called and I didn’t even know what color we were, so I held my breath. It wasn’t until I watched the video, a few days later, when I realized that the kid’s coach thought he was one color but he was the other. And he told his guy to stall at the end, to win. he even got up and cheered until reality set in.

I had to chuckle at that.

well live and learn.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Funny story about watching the point flip cards.


Author:
whitfield
[Edit]

Date Posted: 11:41:24 11/05/04 Fri

my only complaint about the macs scoring system is the subjective nature... what may be a very dangerous armlock on some people may not be dangerous to another guy (see saku v royler). sometimes its impossible for the ref to see a submission that is dangerous and sometimes it works the other way too

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Funny story about watching the point flip cards.


Author:
Steve Loftin
[Edit]

Date Posted: 08:43:20 11/06/04 Sat

Yeah, Whitfield is right. It is subjective to a certain degree. But, I think that is what makes it so unique. The bottom line is that if you try to finish the match with a submission, you will stand a good chance of having your hand raised. If there is a close match where one guy did nothing but takedowns and the other did nothing but sub attempts, who do you think will win? It's all about match ending action.

If the Royler/Saku match was at a MACS event, Saku would've prolly got a major advantage for that hold. Event though Royler seemed to not be in pain, it was a controlled hold and it was locked in correctly.

MACS is first and foremost a SUBMISSION system. We are not BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, etc, etc. BUT, all of those style have a place in our organization if they are ready to play the submission game. If you want to do BJJ...go to a BJJ event. IF you want to wrestle...go to a wrestling meet. If you want to do Judo...go to a Judo shiai.

But, if you want to do all-out, pure submission grappling...Come to MACS.

Hugs and Kisses,


Steve

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Funny story about watching the point flip cards.


Author:
whitfield
[Edit]

Date Posted: 15:29:21 11/06/04 Sat

i would argue that in the case of saku v royler the hold was not locked in properly and the reason saku couldnt finish the hold was because he'd already applied as much pressure as he could form that position

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Some people can take certain submissions better than others .


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:09:11 11/06/04 Sat


Part, not all, of what the referees does is look at the reaction of the players in the match. What is the guy doing that is being submitted? I have seen some submissions that were “not locked in properly” but still submitted the other because somehow they found the leverage.

Then you have someone who is double jointed and will not tap. As I have seen a lot of kids with amazingly rubbery arm joints, and when the referee knows who has super joints, it puts the other guy in a disadvantage. Because a referee would normally stop the match after 3 or 4 secs during a full arm submission, but sense they know the kids they wait and wait and wait. If they didn’t know the kids they would have stopped it.

I was asked, on the spot, to referee the AAU freestyle jujitsu this year. And one of my new little kids got caught in a sort of an armbar, she twisted her arm to keep from hurting it, but was unable to get off her back, and really defend the hold down. Now I knew her limitations, but I felt if she couldn’t escape cleanly I need to avoid the appearance of being biased. She and her parent understood that she needed to get off her back. I make my students understand if I have to referee their match, I will be harder on them, the then the other guy.


Some people can take certain submissions better than others and that doesn’t mean the submission wasn’t a major or minor advantage.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Some people can take certain submissions better than others .


Author:
whitfield
[Edit]

Date Posted: 01:35:03 11/09/04 Tue

i've refereed before and the ref really has the hardest job at the tournament, you have to make a lot of calls right on the spur of the moment without really having time to deliberate. i'm just responding from a fighters point of view, and from a fighters point of view i think points and time limits suck... lets just wrestle until someone gets a submission, thats why the sport is called submission wrestling

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: No time limits, no points. Hey you are preaching to the choir.


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 11:52:28 11/10/04 Wed

No time limits, no points. Hey you are preaching to the choir.

But that isn’t practical you would have some matches lasting for hours, what you could do is have like a 5 minute matches, if get submitted you are eliminated (in my case wouldn’t take half that long), kina like a qualifying tournament, keep on changing competitors until you have two in each division, then those two from each division go for the super fight at the end. We would make it an all night thing for the super fight.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: No time limits, no points. Hey you are preaching to the choir.


Author:
Steve Loftin
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:37:52 11/10/04 Wed

James,

What are you saying? You mean to have the two finalists form each weight division in an absolute bracket?

No points, no time limit, grapple until submission. Now that would be good.


Steve

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: No time limits, no points. Hey you are preaching to the choir.


Author:
James Speight
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:16:56 11/11/04 Thu

I wouldn’t call it an absolute they are the same weight class, they are just the two best in that division, and they get all the time in the world to submit the other.

Now realize you would end up with ten fighters in five weight classes, and you will have to have put the kiddies up for the night. Because these will be the toughest of the tough in the sport of grappling. And it may take a long time to get these matches over with. But if that is what it takes then that is what it takes.

Of course you would give away something like a belt or something. And you would have a few hours between the morning event and the evening event. But wouldn’t that be real cool. If you could survive the morning event, you bandage up you hurts and come back for the finals.

You wouldn't have to worry about losing by points to the number one guy in your first match; it is about finding the best two in the division and pitting them against each other in the finals.

Round robin for the first qualifying event. Only submissions are lossing, tapouts are wins, every thing else is a tie. 5, 8, 10 minutes matches.

Then the finals go the distance, what ever it takes, even if I have to have Sunday morning bible school service in the gym.

Of course it wouldn’t be a big event, just an extreme event.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: No time limits, no points. Hey you are preaching to the choir.


Author:
whitfield
[Edit]

Date Posted: 23:48:38 11/11/04 Thu

i disagree with the fights being so long... if both guys play for the submission, it would surprise me to see any match go longer than 10 minutes.... if you are marc laimon or ken shamrock and you run away the whole time then you will have long matches

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: No time limits, no points. Hey you are preaching to the choir.


Author:
Twister
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:51:38 11/14/04 Sun

Well here is an idea. For the year ending event next year we should take the 2 guys with the most points and have a no time limit submission only match or we could crown the States top grappler by having the finals of the absolute go no time limit submission only. :-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: No time limits, no points. Hey you are preaching to the choir.


Author:
whitfield
[Edit]

Date Posted: 16:28:17 11/14/04 Sun

works for me, but why not have the whole tournament? i mean come on... if i'm in there with a guy thats 250, it will take time to cook him and submit him

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