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ER Forum 1 MOVED to New Server and URL.. -- Webmaster: Rex, 20:18:46 05/16/04 Sun

Note:
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[Edit]

Harvey -- SLATT, 12:49:48 12/05/03 Fri

Relax. It is a photo shoot of playboy bunnies fly fishing in the nude.

I'll never forget that Mr. Magoo .22 either.

[Edit]

justice system -- qwerty, 11:35:51 12/05/03 Fri

===

Lawyer quits terror cases after death threat

By OLIVER MOORE
Globe and Mail Update

Fighting for his composure, lawyer Rocco Galati said Thursday that he will drop all of his terrorism-related cases after a death threat that he said he believes came from an intelligence agency.

Mr. Galati is known as a tough-minded counsellor and he said he has put up with plenty of abuse for representing people many Canadians have no sympathy for. He has endured angry communications before and once found a strangled cat on his doorstep, but he almost broke down Thursday as he described his disillusionment upon receiving the threat.

“I'm not on the verge of tears for my safety. I'm on the verge of tears because it means we now live in Colombia. It means that the rule of law is meaningless. It means that lawyers cannot represent anyone even in what you profess to be a democracy here in Canada,” he said. “It comments on where we've arrived as a society.”

He issued a direct appeal to “whoever I've angered,” pleading that they take his statement Thursday “as my bowing out.”

The Toronto-based lawyer — who represents at least seven people in national security cases – said that he received a threatening message one day after he answered media questions with former terrorism suspect Abdurahman Khadr. He played it Thursday for reporters gathered at his office.

“Well, Mr. Galati. What's this I hear about you working with the terrorist now, helping to get that ... punk terrorist Khadr off. You a dead wop,” a voice said, in low and calm tones.

Mr. Galati said that lawyers in controversial practices become accustomed to angry messages from the public, but he said that this threat was different.

“You get to recognize when someone is trying to blow off steam and when someone is serious,” he said at his office, his own lawyer by his side. “This is serious, this is an institutional threat, this is not an individual.”

He was tightlipped when asked to explain his apparent certainty that the threat came from an official source. He would say only that he recognized the voice on the message from a previous case and said that, in that earlier instance, a person mentioned by the voice had subsequently disappeared.

Mr. Galati's own lawyer, Paul Slansky, said that neither the RCMP nor the Toronto police seem willing to take the threat serious

===

the internationalized mafia in the US has shown itself many times and still people blot it out.

there is not only this problem but even if one has a lawyer representing them, it is likely they will be covertly working for the prosecution or big money.
this is common practice.

in michigan, i believe it was, a plaintive took a case to a lawyer against an insurance company. the plaintiff lost in court. it was later found out that the lawyer took a pay off from the insurance company. the plaintiff tried to bring charges against the attorney but was unable to prosecute.

someone i know brought a case to a lawyer and the lawyer told him upfront that he would have to pay a bribe to the judge if he wanted a chance to win

so many americans are so tuned out of what is happening

they see the OJ trial as someone guilty getting off

people say "america is the greatest country" until their number comes up and then they complain.

what too many americans don't see or want to see is money and power buy justice

anybody fighting for justice will have to risk life and limb and sustenance

no money, no power then justice is a crapshoot at best

just more overt signs how evil triumphs on a daily basis and how the average american aids and abets the crime and corruption that permeates the entire system

when JFK was assassinated and covered up, the average american just swept it under the rug. it never became a political issue. most of these same people yapped about getting tough and sending law breakers to jail. it was apparent at that time that to me that there was a serious disconnect from reality from too many people.

what goes around comes arouind
some day these same americans will reap what they allowed to be sowed

i was reading some stories from the unemployed and they complain about the system
for most, they gave sustenace to the system through indifference or apathy
now the system is giving them a pay off in a negative way

without politically intelligent and concerned citizens, freedom can't really exist in a country

[Edit]

SLATT..ET...- Wabbit Shoot you say? -- Harvey, 11:08:00 12/05/03 Fri

Carefull out there boyz - some of dem wabbits shoot back; in particular, the ones whom just mounted up (yesterday as a matter of fact) a new Sightron 6X16 tactical. [For the bunny poppers out there - these Sightrons are AMAZING, equal to, but half the price of ye ole gold ring specials.]

Hey!!... keep us posted on the Snake River beer, brat, and fishy rendevous - you might just be surprise to find an ole river rat, rounding the bend, accompanied by a neked Pooka with the hookha. That big Snakey is only a short hop for da bunnybutt.

SLATT - Say "howdy" to Mr. Magoo, if you see him...Hau, I'll never forget that one!

Sight'n in,
Harvey

[Edit]

Drips -- volavka, 10:23:23 12/05/03 Fri

Need any you can find in au/ag.

Gold drips will be where it's @ thru rest of 00's

[Edit]

Self-deception - always with us. - Netking -- jomama, 09:27:19 12/05/03 Fri

"I refuse to believe that human beings are collectively incapable of making rational decisions."

I refuse to believe the obverse and once we can
get over the above illusion perhaps "civilization" (so-called) will have a chance.

A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Why should you allow ur decisions to be ruled by
such machinations?

See why:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/051788433X/102-1331927-7781706?v=glance

[Edit]

J-man -- volavka, 06:30:41 12/05/03 Fri

http://www.givemeliberty.org/

[Edit]

Have you a link @Volavka? -- journeyman, 03:24:16 12/05/03 Fri

Hi Volavka:

Can you provide a link for Your due process -- volavka, 17:56:27 12/04/03 Thu ??

Would GREATLY appreciate same!

Thanks in any case,
j.

[Edit]

gold hugging 400 -- qwerty, 02:50:29 12/05/03 Fri

i find it very suspicious that it is hugging so close to the 400 line. there has been too little deviation

i will not be surprised to see them try hitting gold hard this friday

if we get hit, it will probably be the usual 12 noon

also bush has some economic speech on friday

something seems to be going on

[Edit]

re: fear and volcanoes -- Questioner, 22:51:13 12/04/03 Thu

Back in the 1980's I did so backpacking and fishing near Mammoth Lakes in the Sierras. This on the edge of the famous Long Valley caldera which the ski resort of Mammoth Lakes is also on the edge of. As a matter of fact a caldera is just a giant volcano just much larger in geographic terms. Any way during the late 1970's and early 1980's there were many earthquakes in this area and there were some who were expecting an iminent eruption. It still hasn't happened yet. Near Devil's Postpile which is on the edge of this caldera there have been a lot of tree kill from the gases coming out of the ground. (This area has one of the largest ponderosa pine forest in the world, a lot of really nice trees). The US Forest service even put a road through this Devils Postpile as an emergency escape route in the event there is an eruption so the folks who live in Mammoth can escape. The USFS has emergency plans to deal with this event. The US geological service even considered drilling some exploration holes in the ground to get an exact depth of the magma in the ground. Some estimate that it as close to 2 miles below the surface. When it is ready to go it will go. I think it was John Hogue on coast to coast the other night who said that in 2008 this Mammoth area might go.

If you ever want a great place to go swimming it is called Hot creek and is where the hot springs mix with the cool snow melt water and you can find yourself a hole in the creek with the correct water temperature to suite your needs.

This area erupts periodically and the Mono craters are the most recent in this area near Mono Lake. Geologists argue over which place on the planet in the past has had the greatest eruption and some say this Long Valley Caldera some 500,000 had a Mammoth eruption hence the name Mammoth.

Anyway to my point. Don't let this fear stuff about large volcanic eruptions get you worried. Volcanoes serve a very important purpose on this planet to help renew soils and fertility. In a book by Atlee Hammacker(sp?) called "The Survival of Civilization," he said they were essential for the continuation of civilization. When your number is up, it is up. That Harry Truman guy that wouldn't leave his home at Spirit lake when Mount Saint Helens erupted stuck around to help renew the soil. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust as they say.

I use volcanic soil to help fertilize my greenhouse and some basalt soils are some of the best which are volcanic in origin.

If anything I would look at the awakening of these volcanoes as a good thing. I sort of look at the earth as a living being and a self regulating. Nature will take care of the earth and change. Volcanic action will help cleanse the earth and restore fertility. Geologic time is so different that modern human time. All in good time. Have no fear and in this case go with the lava flow.
Walk in Balance, Questioner

[Edit]

SLATT -- ET, 22:33:06 12/04/03 Thu

Hey SLATT - beer and brats for breakfast. A traditionalist.

If you know when they're going to schedule that shoot I could adjust my schedule to fit. I've got this nifty Nikon...

Not much to sweeten the deal I'm afraid, this is just a good old boys excursion. The green drake hatch will be on and the rainbows are absolutely huge. But, you might bring your camera anyway, just in case...

[Edit]

ET -- SLATT, 21:31:56 12/04/03 Thu

I usually have beer and brats for breakfast. You have to sweeten it more than that. Such as scheduling the trip around a bunny shoot of nude fly fishing, perhaps?

[Edit]

querty, SLATT -- ET, 21:05:36 12/04/03 Thu

Hey querty - thanks for the update. Har!

Hey SLATT - how you doing? Yeah, I know the bulge is the real deal. It's a very active area. The fish kills, however, are not the real deal. When I was there in June I did spend a bit of time in the Norris geyser area and reports that activity has increased are accurate. Like querty says, it's a tremendous area to visit.

Matter of fact, we are planning another trip out to the area the third week of June. We're going to fish the Henry's Fork of the Snake River over in Idaho, 30 miles from West Yellowstone. We were there this year at an area known as Railroad Ranch, which is an old hideout of the Harriman family and his cronies. The family donated it to Idaho and they've kept its beauty intact. Incredible fishing! A beer and brats fest! See you there!

[Edit]

ET -- SLATT, 20:13:18 12/04/03 Thu

The Yellowstone "bulge" is real. Doesn't mean an eruption is imminent though. Not the same as Mt. St. Helens. I believe the ground temps too. Just bring a shovel and wrap the weenies in aluminum foil and bury about 4 inches. That is good eating.

[Edit]

ET -- qwerty, 20:01:17 12/04/03 Thu

All that activity in Yellowstone is being staged by Al Queda and the Taliban,

The Park Rangers are Al Queda and Taliban in disquise

Their lookout saw you coming both times so to avoid detection, they migrated the animals back in both times

They also forced the visitors to act natural so you got fooled

The reason the wolves are missing is because Al Queda are training them to be terrorists. They are using mind control techniques to make them obey and carry out assassinations.

They have taken control of the fly shops so calling them will not help

They are working to detonate yellowstone

General Frank will assume chief park ranger position when that happens and be given absolute authority

Some of the antelope and buffalo are also Al Queda operatives although they get paid with US taxpayer money

Jackson Hole and Yellowstone are sure beautiful places to be

[Edit]

Yellowstone -- ET, 19:29:30 12/04/03 Thu

Just a note for those that probably haven't been to Yellowstone Park recently. The reports you hear are total bs. The Norris Geyser Basin has always looked like a dead zone because it's a geyser basin. I doubt you'll be hiking through this area anyway. Yes, the ground temps are up slightly but when I was there in both June and September, the area was open to the public as far as I know. Animals haven't been migrating from the park. At least not fast enough to suit the elk hunters. [g]

Reports of dead and dying fish in Yellowstone Lake, Yellowstone River, Gibbon River, Madison River, Lamar River, and the Firehole River are all a bunch of bs. I personally fished all these rivers in September as well as having fished the Firehole River in June. I managed to actually spot a fair amount of wildlife in the park including black and grizzly bears, moose, elk, deer, bison, etc. The only thing I missed were the wolves.

The only truth in all these reports is that most of the park roads are closed to traffic because of snow. They close every year at the end of October and don't reopen until the end of May. However, you can still snowmobile most of these areas all winter.

If you don't believe me, feel free to call Madison River Outfitters in West Yellowstone, Montana, or any of the other fly shops in town.

[Edit]

Your due process -- volavka, 17:56:27 12/04/03 Thu

11-26-03

Employer Simkanin Prosecution Ends in Mistrial

Judge Stymies Both Jury & Defense
DOJ Intends to Retry Simkanin ASAP

Jury Hung at 11-1 Favoring Acquittal

After almost 6 months of incarceration in isolation awaiting his federal trial, non-withholding employer Dick Simkanin’s trial ended this evening in a mistrial after the jury was unable to reach a verdict on federal charges that Simkanin failed to Withhold taxes from his employees.

Simkanin, a successful Bedford, Texas business owner, had been charged with 12 counts of Willful Failure to Withhold employment taxes for his employees and 15 counts of filing False Claims for requesting refunds of tax pre-payments that had been made by Simkanin on behalf of those employees.

Facing years in federal prison, his trial lasted only hours, beginning and ending yesterday – largely because the Court denied Simkanin the opportunity present any expert defense witnesses or legal evidence regarding the contested legal obligations under US income tax statutes. Jury deliberations started this morning and the mistrial was declared around 6 PM Central time. A report from several sources close to the Simkanin team was that the jury hung 11-1 in favor of acquittal.

US Attorney Jarvis stated that he intended to retry Simkanin “as soon as possible.” Simkanin, who has NO criminal record, was immediately ordered back into federal custody by Judge John McBryde.

Reportedly contributing to the jury’s inability to reach a verdict were nine separate requests and questions from the jury including a request to see a written copy of the jury instructions, a request to see a copy of the Internal Revenue Code and for the judge to provide a copy of the specific US statute that required Simkanin to withhold. Judge McBryde refused these significant requests. According to court observers, Judge McBryde also significantly impaired and repeatedly interfered with defense counsel Arch McColl's cross examination of government witnesses.

One example of how Judge McBryde dispensed justice during the short trial occurred following the testimony of one of the IRS expert witnesses who testified that the definition of “employee” that applied to Simkanin as an “employer” was found at Internal Revenue Code Section 3401 (which is for legal definitions), and defines “employee” as:

“For purposes of this chapter, the term “employee” includes an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of any one of the foregoing. The term “employee” also includes an officer of a corporation.”

During a break, Judge McBryde requested US Attorney Jarvis for the legal definition of “employee” to include in the jury instructions. Defense attorney McColl then attempted to show the judge the definition in the IRC at section 26 USC 3401 that had just been testified to by the IRS witness. According to court observers, the judge dismissively “waved off” McColl with a flip of the wrist and a comment, “I know what your position is Mr. McColl, and I disagree. That is not a definition. It says ‘includes’ not ‘defines’. I want Mr. Jarvis' position.”

According to courtroom observers, US Attorney Jarvis later recalled the IRS employee to the witness stand, and the witness subsequently “corrected” his previous testimony to affirmatively declare that the definition of “employee” which applies to Simkanin was not from Section 3401, but rather from Section 3121(d).

Although the definition of “employee” found at 3121 is certainly more encompassing than the legal definition first asserted by the IRS witness, the subsequent definition may ultimately cause unanticipated problems for the government if it attempts to retry Simkanin. The following citation is from section Section 3121(e), which, (per the “corrected” testimony of the IRS witness), also contains legal definitions for the terms “State” and “United States” for the purposes of the withholding chapter that Texas resident Simkanin was allegedly charged with violating:

(e) State, United States, and citizen
For purposes of this chapter -
(1) State
The term ''State'' includes the District of Columbia, the
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and
American Samoa.
(2) United States
The term ''United States'' when used in a geographical sense
includes the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands,
Guam, and American Samoa.

An individual who is a citizen of the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico
but not otherwise a citizen of the United States) shall be
considered, for purposes of this section, as a citizen of the
United States.
During the two previous years, Simkanin had appeared before two separate federal grand juries, each apparently refusing to indict him after hearing Simkanin directly testify about the true legal substance of the US Income Tax Code. At each of these grand jury proceedings, Simkanin also provided each grand juror with substantial documentary evidence showing both the constitutional problems with the income tax system and evidence of how our government has conspired to contain these truths through deception and abuse of the public trust.

According to sources on the defense team, in early October, Simkanin, believing his trial was being “railroaded” by the federal prosecutor, acting in collusion with the District court, plead guilty to a single tax charge. Weeks later, the plea bargain was withdrawn by the DOJ because of an error in the government’s original plea offer. Simkanin, apparently, reconsidering his earlier decision to plea, decided to go to trial and seek bona fide justice.

Today, he almost got it.

More details will follow as available

[Edit]

That sinking feeling. -- SLATT, 17:26:02 12/04/03 Thu

The wreck of the sidewheeler steamship Republic was recently dicovered off the coast of Georgia where it had went down shortly after the Civil war. It was carrying trade items to New Orleans. It was also carrying 20,000 US $20 gold pieces. The coin hoard has been located in it's shining glory. The coins looked great. Like they were minted yesterday.

Can only negatively impact the value of many pre 1865 double eagles. The time of major league shysters is at hand. Pop reports were bogus to begin with. And you ain't seen nothin yet! Which is something the dealers won't tell you.

[Edit]

@ Omar -- RossL, 16:55:48 12/04/03 Thu

This is the time of year when they shut down production at the mint and get ready for 2004. Tulving will have shiny new 2004 eagles in about 6 weeks or so.

[Edit]

Yellowstone -- skys39, 15:48:54 12/04/03 Thu

Parts Of Yellowstone Are Like A Dead Zone

From: Mofmars3@wmconnect.com

On October 22, 2003 a message stated in July that the Yellowstone Park rangers closed the entire Norris Geyer Basin because of the deformation of the land and the excess temperature. There is an area there that is 28 miles long and 7 miles wide that has bulged upward over five inches since 1996. This year the ground temperature on that budge has reached over 200 degrees. There was no choice but to close off the whole area.

Everything in that area is dying. The trees, flowers, and grasses resemble a dead zone and are spreading outward. The animals are literally migrating out of the park. This isn't hearsay. It is coming from people who have actually visited the park in the last few weeks. The later part of July, one of the park geologists discovered a huge bulge at the bottom of Yellowstone Lake. The bulge has already risen over 100 feet from the bottom of the lake. The water temperature at the surface of the bulge has reached 88 degrees and is still rising. Keep in mind that Yellowstone Lake is a high mountain lake with a very cold-water temperature

The lake is now closed to the public. It is filled with dead fish floating everywhere. The same is true of the Yellowstone River and most of the steams in the park. Dead and dying fish are filling the water everywhere. Many picnic areas in the park have been closed and people that are visiting the park don't stay but a few hours or a day or two and leave. The stench of sulfur is so strong that they literally can't stand the smell.

Yellowstone is what geologists call a "super volcano". There are massive calderas of molten fire beneath Yellowstone National Park. Geologists are saying that every living thing within six hundred miles could be affected in devastation. It could produce an ash cloud that will cover the entire western U.S. clear to the Pacific on the west, British Columbia on the north, the Mexican border on the south, and then out into the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas on the east. Then the cloud could blow east because of the prevailing winds, literally covering the entire nation with volcanic ash.

Thank you for your attention, and prayers please respond to:

Bennie E. LeBeau,

Eastern Shoshone Wind River Indian Reservation

Ft. Washakie, Wyoming 2331

Oak Lane Riverton, Wyoming 307 857-6856

[Edit]

Two Big "HINTS" -- OmarD, 14:44:25 12/04/03 Thu

1st:

80 year old, "very" long time "paper collector" father states this AM, he is "bailing out" of all his mutual funds. (to "what" am not sure (?) - but by now is well educated on virtues of PM's - from me, of course.

)

2nd:

Have never seen this before: "Today" @ Eagles sold out? (http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html#gold)

FWIW

OmarD

[Edit]

serving america -- qwerty, 11:26:55 12/04/03 Thu

why there will be no real economic recovery for at least the next 5 years

=====

"Serving" Your Country Has a New Meaning Today

Author: Jim Sinclair

Q: Jim, just in case the Gold Community has any doubts when the November jobs report crosses on Friday, even if the equity guys do not seem to comprehend.

We are a nation full of temps, Home Depot and Lowe's part timers or hamburger flippers as you say. And the white house Spin Doctors would have you believe there are so many well paying jobs, just waiting for everyone. Sorry gang, GE, and others would rather compensate in rupees, not dollars, at 1/6th the cost.

A: Interesting observation. I noticed yesterday in Bloomberg that Pepsi announced plans to fire 750 workers, close a Frito-Lay snacks plant in Kentucky, and combine North American juice businesses into one unit to lower costs. Also, Veritas Software said it would hire 300 more people in India over the next 12 months to expand research and development in the country.

Clearly, we are exporting some of our best jobs overseas and replacing them with low paid service industry jobs that are boosting employment but at a huge economic cost.

[Edit]

palha -- qwerty, 11:08:46 12/04/03 Thu

===
If the mines start to close down then supplies will be severely constrained, and it takes about 1-2 years to bring mines back online after they have been shut down. If nothing is done to bolster the Dollar soon, then the Rand will carry on appreciating, mines will be shut down and Gold will go to the moon a lot sooner than even the Gold bugs think and the Feds will understand the true meaning of the phrase "roasting in Hell".

If you look at gold bullion in Feb 2003 it was selling for approx 3300 rand, today its selling for approx 2600, cheaper by 700 Rands. The exchange rate is approx 6.36 Rands for 1 Us dollar, that means Gold is currently selling for 110 US dollars less than it was selling in Feb 2003, that translates into a price of approx 510 US dollars per ounce of Gold. South Africans who have invested in gold bullion have been basically raped to death and handed their heads on a platter so far. We constantly monitor the Gold situation in various currencies, you can do this on your own by going to www.stockcharts.com or subscribing to our free newsletter. We will be expanding on this topic on our next Contrarian Round table series, where up to 9 other commentators will be posting their comments on the Current Gold situation. It should be ready around the 3rd week of December
===

The cabal and the gold shorts are caught between a big rock and the hard groud

if some SA gold mines did stop producing gold, it will be lights out for the shorts

there will be a lot of pressure to push gold price way up in order to negate the effect of the currencies on supply

gold price is a powerful spring being held down by powerful forces

i can see gold in the very low 4 digits easy when one takes into account the disparity of strength between currencies. this does not even take into account any gold mania

[Edit]

The reason there is no real hope of a serious recovery from the present recession -- HBM, 10:49:37 12/04/03 Thu

Wages have not kept up with consumer spending and are reaching the breakpoint.

Increased productivity via technological advance has not caused a corresponding increase wages.

Consumer spending has barely stemmed the tide via credit card and home equity debt.

Interest on past debt must be serviced. Huge increases in debt must be serviced by a reasonable increase in average hourly income. That has not happened.

The increase in average hourly wages required to service the interest on debt already in place will turn out to be the most powerful price inflationary forces on the planet, rivaled only by commodity prices which are already in acceleration.

Inflation puts more pressure on interest rates than any single force known to man.

Higher interest rates result in more interest on existing debt to be serviced. In addition the higher rates crush the demand for new borrowing. A crunch on new debt demand will exacerbate the waning consumer spending level without which there can be no recovery.

There is no way out. The public will not settle for a 1930’s style depression. They will opt for a Weimar style depression. The politicians will accommodate them.

Good-bye US$ -- hello Gold.

HBM

[Edit]

patience -- volavka, 09:43:17 12/04/03 Thu

Two old friends met one day after many years. One attended college, and now was very successful. The other had not attended college and never had much ambition.

The successful one said, "How has everything been going with you?"

"Well, one day I opened the Bible at random, and dropped my finger on a word and it was oil. So, I invested in oil, and boy, did the oil wells gush. Then another day I dropped my finger on another
word and it was gold. So, I invested in gold and those mines really produced. Now, I'm as rich as Rockefeller."

The successful friend was so impressed that he rushed to his hotel, grabbed a Gideon Bible, flipped it open, and dropped his finger on a page. He opened his eyes and his finger rested on the words, "Chapter Eleven."

[Edit]

Govt. supporting dow -- volavka, 08:25:20 12/04/03 Thu

to support the pension funds.
roll sideways thru years end.

criminal politics @ its best.

[Edit]

Somebody told Dubya -- volavka, 08:11:21 12/04/03 Thu

to da moon, so now he's heading there for the Au.

[Edit]

gold short term obj. -- volavka, 07:49:53 12/04/03 Thu

+15.00 to 20.00.

[Edit]

Focus now -- volavka, 07:03:42 12/04/03 Thu

Platinum approaching 800.00 headed for 1500.00.
Russia will not be held by clowns of the comex.

Platinum will take both the other metals much higher.

Those holding calvf:

Caledonia Mining platinum drilling update

Three drill rigs are currently operating and
eight drill holes have been completed. The 15 hole drilling program is expected to be completed
by the 12th December 2003 when the drillers break
for their annual holidays. The current stratigraphic drilling has intersected
mineralization and confirms the presence of “Merensky”-like Platinum mineralization on the property. Mr. John L Blaine, Professional Geologist and Consulting Geologist is Caledonia’s project manager of its Rooipoort Platinum Project and is responsible for its design and conduct of the exploration program. Petrographic verification of rock types continues and the assaying of systematically sampled drill core is being conducted at SGS Lakefield laboratories in Johannesburg. Check assays will be conducted by the outside laboratories of either Genalysis ( Perth, W. Australia ) and/or ALS Chemex ( Toronto, Canada ) .

Caledonia will continue to keep Investors updated
as to the exploration progress on
the Rooipoort Exploration Project.

[Edit]

Bottom of the barrel . . . aka 'Civilisation In Denial' -- Netking, 01:42:46 12/04/03 Thu

Selected 'fair use' snippets from George Monbiot's article on Tuesday December 2, 2003 first published in The Guardian.

* The world is running out of oil - so why do politicians refuse to talk about it?

* The oil industry is buzzing. On Thursday, the government approved the development of the biggest deposit discovered in British territory for at least 10 years. Everywhere we are told that this is a "huge" find, which dispels the idea that North Sea oil is in terminal decline. You begin to recognise how serious the human predicament has become when you discover that this "huge" new field will supply the world with oil for five and a quarter days.

* The discovery of new reserves peaked in the 1960s. Every year we use four times as much oil as we find. All the big strikes appear to have been made long ago.

* No one with expertise in the field is in any doubt that the global production of oil will peak before long. The only question is how long. The most optimistic projections are the ones produced by the US department of energy, which claims that this will not take place until 2037 [yeah right! - netking] But the US energy information agency has admitted that the government's figures have been fudged: it has based its projections for oil supply on the projections for oil demand, perhaps in order not to sow panic in the financial markets. Other analysts are less sanguine. The petroleum geologist Colin Campbell calculates that global extraction will peak before 2010. In August, the geophysicist Kenneth Deffeyes told New Scientist that he was "99% confident" that the date of maximum global production will be 2004.

* The supply of oil will decline, but global demand will not. Today we will burn 76m barrels; by 2020 we will be using 112m barrels a day, after which projected demand accelerates. If supply declines and demand grows, we soon encounter something with which the people of the advanced industrial economies are unfamiliar: shortage. The price of oil will go through the roof.

In view of all this, the notion that the war with Iraq had nothing to do with oil is simply preposterous. The US attacked Iraq (which appears to have had no weapons of mass destruction and was not threatening other nations), rather than North Korea (which is actively developing a nuclear weapons programme and boasting of its intentions to blow everyone else to kingdom come) because Iraq had something it wanted. In one respect alone, Bush and Blair have been making plans for the day when oil production peaks, by seeking to secure the reserves of other nations.

I refuse to believe that there is not a better means of averting disaster than this. I refuse to believe that human beings are collectively incapable of making rational decisions. But I am beginning to wonder what the basis of my belief might be.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/120303_bottom_barrel.html

[Edit]

Current POG, POS, POP & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 00:48:46 12/04/03 Thu

[Edit]

HBM -- Netking, 22:43:05 12/03/03 Wed

$1.60? You'd better believe it brother. We've had the equiv. of 1.4577 back in Sept 1992 . . . expect to retrace back to here again and then beyond. My country's own fiat was once worth more than the USD, I expect this scenario to again repeat. In terms of the greenback, we are past the point of no return.....we live in very prophetic days, financial entropy will be all around.

[Edit]

pretty intense read -- qwerty, 21:03:45 12/03/03 Wed

World War 4 In 2004
Bush's Operation Clean Sweep - World War IV In 2004

http://www.rense.com/general45/2004.htm

excerpt below

pretty intense reading

comments are afterward

====

2004-2008: Operation Clean Sweep

Shortly upon taking office in 2004, Bush's PCS will move rapidly on a number of fronts. Unbound by the constraints of campaigning, the real work of the Bush PCS will begin. First, the Bush PCS will continue to rupture federal and state programs that assist the middle and lower classes of America and their culture and environment. The US Supreme Court will eliminate a woman's right to choose. Constitutional amendments banning gay rights, women's rights and civil rights/affirmative action will be proposed by the Bush PCS and, in all likelihood, will succeed. An additional amendment to the constitution concerning military rule in case of an attack on US soil by any foreign individual or state will be added easing the way towards military rule in America.

While the nation debates these issues, Bush will quietly issue an edict supporting a return to the draft. The massive military campaign that is sure to follow will require millions of US military personnel that can only be had forcibly through conscription. As early as the Christian holiday of Christmas in December 2004, or more likely, the Christian Easter Holiday in April 2005 (celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ), the Bush PCS will attack. Syria will be attacked by American-British-Israeli coalition forces, primarily from its Western, Southern and Eastern flanks. There will be no prolonged bombing campaign in this operation. The air campaign will be concomitant with an amphibious assault on Syria's Western shores, accompanied by a land invasion from the Southern and Eastern flanks. The forces of the American led coalition will crush the dilapidated Syrian military within 10 business days.

The Palestinians will likely be granted a piece of the former Syria and will be relocated there by the US and Israel.
Simultaneously with invasion of Syria, Iran will be subjected to an extraordinary air and cruise missile assault led by American forces. This operation will include additional military elements from the Turkish and Afghani military who will have been promised a piece of Iran once it is defeated. A withering air assault will come from the Northwest through Turkey, from the West from US controlled Iraq, from the East from the air bases in Afghanistan, and from carrier groups and cruise missile launching submarines, to include an Israeli submarine, in the Persian Gulf. Within 60 business days, Iran will be defeated by US-led forces. And should Iran successfully test a nuclear weapon prior to that time, the Bush PCS will accelerate its timetable for attack opting to use tactical nuclear weapons to take out Iranian nuclear weaponry.

Since the Bush PCS believes that North Korea cannot be allowed to exist, it will attack North Korea simultaneously with its invasion of Syria and Iran. China will have been dealt with during back channel negotiations. The price China will demand of not intervening against the US invasion (Chinese troop strength at 100 million) will be Taiwan. The Bush PCS will turn a blind eye to China's takeover of Taiwan, which had become a bad US hangover from the Cold War.

The US will be glad to rid itself of support for Taiwan. Vladimir Putin may sign on to the US-led invasion and commit Russian troops which will incur from the Northeastern portion of North Korea's border. Participation with Bush in this effort would allow Russia basing rights on the Eastern shores of North Korea. The US and South Korean military will attempt to neutralize the North Korean military with low yield tactical nuclear weapons which will be used primarily along the heavily fortified Southern border. This conflict will see the massive deployment of ordnance with calmative agents meant to literally put to sleep the North Korean military. An electromagnetic pulse weapon or weapons will be used to knock out North Korea's command and control infrastructure. Ground operations will be simultaneous with air and sea assault but the conflict will rage on for 12 business quarters as weather and terrain complicate the US led attack.

Meanwhile in Colombia, US military forces will openly engage in combat against the FARC and indigenous peoples movements there. Over in Venezuela, the US will finally topple Hugo Chavez (if not prior to 2004). The aged leaders of Cuba and Libya will be no match for the Bush PCS, and they will likely be toppled in US led coups. In each of these cases, Bush PCS friendly dictators will be installed and US corporations will quickly move to capitalize each of those societies, just as they are doing in Iraq.

All of this, it seems, is a fait accompli.

John Stanton
Especially for "PRAVDA.Ru"
Virginia, USA

===

Hitler sent his troops against Russia. There was never any likelihood that Germany could win and hold that country. Holding territory has a high financial cost and very demoralizing for the soldiers. If there are any gains, it occurs covertly.

Hitler and his backers committed treason against Germany. Like americans, germans were just as politically dumb about their politicians. with the internet, there is no excuse for americans.

Let's say they do take over Syria and Iran also

Imagine being a US soldier in countries where the entire populations hate you and your being used for just fodder for larger objectives. Any occupation would end in failure. Bush knows it.

They wouldn't attack them unless it was meant as a diversion or decoy in other larger objectives

Invading some country is one thing. What you can do after you invade in quite another.

As far as North Korea, we are fed a lot of propaganda about that country especially economic.

Also hardly a peep about the horrific war crimes involving millions of deaths committed against the South Korean people by the US military with collusion of CFR installed people. They saw their leaders committing treason so the US had to bomb them to stomp out political opposition against the US in South Korea. The most popular politicians in South Korea are anti US.

This same CFR mindset will have no qualms about murder of millions of americans either

China could neutralize it by moving troops close by and make occupation impossible. Any invasion of North Korea can only be successful if China agrees to allow it.

As far as South America, it will be a hard sell that a war is required. People will see through it.

It won't be the oil that they are after as much as the profit the armament industry can make and the business deals. the real chumps economically will be the US taxpayers. Any war there will be such a real mess.

i can imagine that the US is being set up to be a re-run of Nazi Germany in WWII where they will create enormous amount of global conflict but there will be a planned defeat and that's when a global government gets even more momentum

The more important wars are happening covertly. The real objectives are not for public discussion.

Also, when the occupation ends, it doesn't mean a trojan horse is not left behind or that something wasn't accomplished

Like previous wars, the conscripted soldiers will be betrayed although many will not know it and will think they are serving for patriotic reasons.

Other soldiers will see it as an opportunity to carry out crime for financial and personal gain.

The NWO views a country and it's people as expendable for larger objectives.

As far as domestic stuff in the coming years, i could imagine a lot of cold darkness.

a lot of americans will likely assume they have rights as an american because of course the patriot act 1 and 2 are just for terrorists

in exercising those rights, they will get stomped on or denied economic sustanance so will have a reality check

i can imagine personal self interest causing a lot of previously apathetic or indifferent people to get agitated. they will get stomped on and put in their place.

There is a "anti-drug" ad on TV. It correlates the terms "mother" and "enforcer". It is curious they use that term. It is a very dark mafia like term. With other ads that correlating "parent" and "surveillance is goodness" along with those X-box commercials, I guess we are being prepared for the dark ages.

It will be a little here and a little there. Eventually, it will just be.

if the people in washington dc have their way, we may take on characteristics like guatemala

i can imagine a lot of disappeared or murdered americans.

most of the murdered and disappeared people will be people who had something other people wanted with no political thoughts in their head ... political dissidents will makeup a lower percentage

they built all those internment camps during the 80's so i can imagine them utilizing them.

this doesn't mean that they will have complete control. the US is very large geographically with a large population. i can see them inflicting more psychological damage than physical on the domestic scene.

more importantly, just because they have a chain of command, it doesn't mean they will follow orders. there will be a lot of sadistical maniacs put into positions of power that can determine life and death. the ones that do the right thing will be pushed out. the criminals will pretty much take over at most levels since they will have less qualms about carrying out sadistic orders. they will have their own self interest agendas that override the commands from above. there will be serial killers who will prosper.

the major problem will be the looting for self gain which will incur the most physical damage. That will drive the beauracracy more than the political objectives.

To many people, all the seemingly chaos will seem like craziness

But to the designers, they want to create chaos to bring about a new order. there will be darkness and then what seems like light. it will seem like an improvement.

so the only plan i see is

let them have their wars

let the J6P population in the US deal with the repression

try to stay out of the way and avoid becoming a casualty

it's way too late to become political

most will welcome a police state because they think it is what keeps them safe.

a lot are people who hang their american flags out for state created fake events and / or tune out political reality will be at the forefront of this.

best to let it implode

[Edit]

scumbags -- volavka, 18:35:03 12/03/03 Wed

holding gold back, truth shall prevail.

[Edit]

@HBM re rhody -- Galearis, 18:34:04 12/03/03 Wed

Yes, my brother's words who is known as Rhody.

G.

[Edit]

Thanks for the links @QWERTY -- journeyman, 16:07:47 12/03/03 Wed

Regards,
j.

[Edit]

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20031128-032727-6973r -- HBM, 15:58:01 12/03/03 Wed

The talk of a Euro buying $1.60. That's a 33.33% increase of the Euro against the dollar.

So far this year the Euro has increased against the dollar by 14% and the resulting increase in POG against the dollar was 16%.

Should the Euro go to $1.60 POG would have to go to $540 with a repeat performance.

Do I expect that to happen? No, not at all. There are of course many more factors which will enter into the equation. Euro vs. $1.60 could only happen, IMO if complete control were lost by TPTB. If complete control were lost, POG would certainly rise above $1,800.

HBM

PS: Part of my reasoning is the fact that Europe does not want the type of depression which would result by the needed U. S. trade deficit reduction, a reduction which could only happen with a huge depreciation in the U. S. Dollar.

Thus if that were to happen it would happen against the will of the entire industrialized community and if it is against their collective wills and still happens it means that they have lost complete control.

[Edit]

Galearis @ 08:22:47 12/03/03 Wed -- HBM, 15:22:49 12/03/03 Wed

Hey G.

Is Rhody your brother or did your brother send you something written by Rhody. None of my business of course.

HBM

[Edit]

Let's go spot -- volavka, 14:35:58 12/03/03 Wed

run.

[Edit]

One way or the other -- volavka, 11:58:41 12/03/03 Wed

Now you're gonna get it.
Today you inverted the version.

The waiting is over...
If the spike is massive enough will they sell it off??????
or get locked???????????

[Edit]

journeymen -- qwerty, 10:22:20 12/03/03 Wed

here are a few links to start with

http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/aforfeit.shtml

http://www.free-market.net/directorybytopic/forfeiture/

i was going to post them but forgot where i saved them

[Edit]

Superlative post! @ET & the "Dietary Supplement Safety Act" @ALL -- journeyman, 08:25:29 12/03/03 Wed

Hi ET, ALL!

While this post has something to do with the joust ET & I have been involved in, I think it has some other value added - - -

You make a lot of good points ET, some I have made in the past when confronted with the pessimists. It's very good to have the optimistic (or hopefully "realistic") viewpoint so well stated.

A little counter-point. Yes, from USA, but that's where I currently live, though not for long I think. I haven't been overseas since 1998 (Russia) and the far east (Philippines, Korea, Malaysia, Thailand, Hong Kong, etc.) since 1994. So I don't have a current "read" on these countries. However those who live in the u.S. are, by my perceptions, not moving in the right direction - - toward free markets.

Caught this yesterday on CNBC: I think it implies the state of free-market capitalism here in USA:

Kudlow & Cramer on CNBC: This next guest is a real capitalist. At a time when the steel industry in the U.S. is on the ropes, he has his stock go up ~350% by selling steel scrap to China. ... Kudlow: ~"Do you think steel companies need government help, these tarrifs, to stay in business?" Steel magnate: "No, I don't." Kudlow: ~"That's a relief! Kudos to you sir. He deserves to be successful just for that." -CNBC, December 2, 2003

And today at the health food store, I inadvertantly discovered international Big Pharma is once again trying to stamp out it's u.S competitors -- and this effort originates in Europe, Germany in particular. There are also trade wars over banannas, avocados, "proper" sheep raising, fishing methods, you-name-it. The fact that Bush will be forced to roll back the steel tarrifs is a symptom of how the WTO has been perverted into a mercantalist tool.

It the case of Bush's steel tariffs, it involves threats of trade retaliation for not "obeying" the WTO, which, to prevent NTTR"non-tariff trade restrictions," arrogated itself the right to set product standards. For example, they tell the British how they have to package cheese -- the French won that battle.

And German Big Pharma doesn't like competiton from vitamin C, echinecia, etc. -- so they've been lobbying to have over the counter vitamin C available only in 50mg tablets, ephedra outlawed. I just saw Dan "Blather" tonight inaccurately bad-mouth echinacea. Part of the spin campaign? Etc.

The way this works is that if your country displeases WTO or is challenged by another country for disobeying the rules, that country can retaliate, trade wise, against your "country." They can do this, according to WTO rules, by passing tariffs on imports from your country as much as ten times higher than the offending tariff or, by formula, higher than the advantage conferred by the offending NTTR. The kicker is, these retalitory tariffs aren't necessarily passed on equivalent products from your country -- they're usually passed against your country's largest export. In the case of German Big Pharma, in retaliation for a u.S company producing, say, 100 mg vitamin C tablets, Germany -- perhaps the entire EC, could retaliate by passing tariffs against u.S food exports -- or video games!

This massive trade retaliation is almost certainly the hidden impetus behind the "Dietary Supplement Safety Act," (Senate bill 722) introduced into the U.S. Senate by Senator Dick Durbin. If you want to try to do something about it, go here: http://www.capwiz.com/nnfa/issues/alert/?alertid=2103491

It's quite telling that USA Corp. tested and refined their "multi-jurisdictional task force" program against health food stores, mostly in No. California if I remember correctly.

Will such tactics work against the internet? I don't know, ET, maybe you have more insight into this?

Myself, I watch to see if they can stamp-out internet gambling. They always go after the so-called "vices" first because it gives them a patina of doing something "good."

In this country, it started with Alexander Hamilton, planning income for his "First Bank of the U.S." by getting his main intended customer, USA Corp., to be financially sound as a result of passing, among other things, an excise tax on whisky. That led to the "Whisky Rebellion."

G. Washington, then president, assembled the largest federal force since the end of the revolution to quell that "rebellion" in W. Pa. and Georgia and accompanied that force as far as Carlisle Pa. But Alexander Hamilton accompanied the force, more than 12,000 strong, all the way to Western Pa. Some suggest he wanted to make sure the FedGov would be able to enforce the whisky tax so it could pay interest to his "First Bank of the U.S." That was the beginning of "revunoors" spooking the hills looking for "illegal" stills, and what metastasized into the hated BATF

Don't count "them" out yet, ET. The pressure's building, but remember, the natural inclination of ALL sellers is to try for a controlled market with limited competition, and they can only get this by collaboration with force wielding governments.

We are now in a phase a lot like the phase, repeated in most European countries, which led directly to the first major collaborations between business and government, the collaborations that gave us the first situations called "mercantilism." "They" will try to repeat that performance on a world-wide basis.

Regards & best of luck,
journeyman

P.S. Just in case you do run across a few anti-capitalists, and feel sorry enough for them to straighten their retro-recalcitrant asses out, remember to give the "jujitsu approach a try.

[Edit]

A new/old spin on silver -- Galearis, 08:22:47 12/03/03 Wed

I don't do this much but occasionally my brother gets inspired and sends me something worth sharing with a larger group:

In the Koran, gold and silver have an exchange rate of about 1. (29.75 gms of Dinar gold
is equal in exchange to 30 gms of Dirham silver.) Such a 1 to 1 ratio is the most extreme
high valuation I have ever seen for silver.

In fifteenth and sixteenth century England, silver (Sterling) was money. A sterling pound
was actually one pound of silver metal, that equaled 14.6 troy ounces of silver. A commoner
could expect to be paid two or three pounds per year. So, if a middle class income in
16th century England was about 50 ounces per year, or .15 ounce per working day, that's about
2 gms per day in silver. That's about the silver content of a silver dime. Do you see how
cheap silver has become because of the manipulation? The manipulation began just
about here with the time of Sir Isaac Newton's term as the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
This is about the time the Brits began to shift away from silver towards gold as the basis
for the financial system. The biggest enemies of silver as money are the Brits, not the
monetary authorities of the United States, although they too are terrified of silver as it is
constitutional money still in the United States. If silver (and gold) are the only legal
(constitutional) forms of money, what is the Federal Reserve Note? The only possible
answer is the FRN is a fraud. It's fiat. It will become non-negotiable in time. With the
above in mind, I continue to buy silver at the rate of one troy ounce per day.

I think 300 years of price suppression in silver is about to end, in the only way such things
ever end, with a price explosion in dollar based conversion. Keep in mind, that the
value of silver will not rise because of this, but the number of dollars needed to buy one ounce
will explode. When silver "rises in dollar price", what we will experience is a
dramatic shrinkage in the value of paper money. Because governments will attempt to
protect their legal tender monopolies, dollars and pounds will continue to buy too much
physical asset even as more and more of them fit into a single ounce of silver. This is
the fundamental expectation of a silver investor.

Regards,

Rhody

[Edit]

Who's in charge? ET, qwerty, j'man all -- jomama, 07:53:01 12/03/03 Wed

"Actually, I believe this is occurring because the marketplace is much freer than you want to believe." -ET

They're freer than anyone believes, I suspect.

They are too many transactions to control, too many people
having too many options.

Goverments must convince everyone that the illusion of
control is still (if it ever was) in place.

They must die doing it. It is their nature to uphold
the illusion of control. They are powerless to do
otherwise.

But there is no way to control A Determined Other.

And the best thing u can do is be A Determined Other
until The Controllers flop about like chickens with
their heads cut off.

It happened 500 years ago with The Church.

It'll happen again.

[Edit]

time for gold to move -- volavka, 07:22:18 12/03/03 Wed

let's go up..

[Edit]

On "Government of Illusion" qwerty -- Galearis, 07:00:33 12/03/03 Wed

An interesting read this, but the problems cited and response by the rich would give the latter way too much prowess in the wise department. What I have found with this class, and a similar trait can be assigned to (all) the rest (except a small minority), is that the environmental aspects of the down spiril has been denied or ignored except by special interest groups. It is well to assign some arbitrary higher level of I.Q. to the wealthy simply because they would have to be smarter to be wealthy, but I can assure you (even assuming that there IS a higher intelligence here) that the time and intellectual energy assigned to the task of their getting to their position in life has concurrently denied to them the possibiity of gaining any expertise in the area that is described. In addition it is culturally foreign to the US (and the rest of the world) to have a fully conceptualized understanding of what the "environmental" aspects of the problems are. Given that the term "environmental" is essentially meaningless - it simply means that which physically surrounds - and ignores for the sake of simplicity any concepts pertaining to ecology....which it must NOT do for purposes of true understanding, the blind are (still) truly leading the blind here. This I call the Duhhhh Factor - which encompasses ALL socio-economic groups remarkably equally in this area of interest.

So, in conclusion, IMO, there is no conspiracy of the wealthy denying the truth to the great unwashed for their own selfish (as usual) gains. Nope, they go down with the bad arm pit crowd too.

If one needs a catchy summation statement: The academic or intellectual concepts needed for general level understanding are just too complicated for too many to be concentrated into an understandable politically digestible morsal. Again it's the Duhhhhh Factor.

There is no solution without more general level understanding. In order for this to take place, a political will must be behind this. There is not enough understanding here either. Checkmate....And we are more efficiently reduced to listening to parables of the pseudo intellectuals about grasshoppers playing. There is far more sympathy for the majority for the majority than for the minority in this area!

Always remember, folks, the tree huggers ARE right. There just isn't any money in their position.

Back to my hibernation...

Best regards,

G.

[Edit]

Year of Monkey -- volavka, 06:01:48 12/03/03 Wed

U.S. Banana notes, if you think they are real, take a bite:

Land of Oz, flying monkies out the door:

http://english.eastday.com/epublish/gb/paper1/1104/class000100001/hwz171426.htm

[Edit]

Rising Sun has sunk -- volavka, 05:47:58 12/03/03 Wed

Alot of jap slapping going on in their banks.

Gold to da moon.

[Edit]

Have you a link @qwerty? -- journeyman, 04:19:59 12/03/03 Wed

Hi QWERTY!

I'm beginning, unfortunately, to think we pessimists have it right.

Do you have a link to the "assed forfiture" statistics? If so, could you post it?

Thanks in any case,
journeyman

[Edit]

Government By Illusion Of Normalcy -- qwerty, 00:32:17 12/03/03 Wed

Government By Illusion Of Normalcy
By Stan Moore

The highest-level participants in the U.S. Government, of both political parties, are not stupid. They know the depth and breadth of the massive problems facing our nation and our civilization. And, rather than solve these systemic problems, they are instead implementing a policy of illusions of normalcy, security, and prosperity so that the wealthy ruling elite can siphon and skim the most personal wealth from the economy until the sh*t hits the fan. Then, it will be every man for himself, with the wealthy having rigged the national security forces to protect their own physical interests and security while the "Big Collapse" of industrial civilization thins out the masses of the "common people".

How else can one explain the criminal failure to act on global warming? How else can one explain the failure to reform western agriculture and move away from chemical and water dependent food production in the proximity to Hubbert's peak of world oil production? A well-written synopsis of the agricultural situation, called "Eating Fossil Fuels", by David Allen Pfeifer, can be accessed at http://www.oilcrash.com/eating.htm How else can the loss of speciation of the entire planet and the failure to resist it be explained? How else can the rise of corporation-based military forces be explained in an age of huge Federal deficits? (see the new book "Corporate Warriors: The Rise of the Privatized Military Industry", by P.W. Singer, published in 2003 by Cornell University Press).

So, what we see is a U.S. Government desperately trying to create illusions. The illusions are designed to make the American public feel safe; to promote the workings of a maximum economy for as long as possible. An economy cannot humm along at maximum speed when people feel insecure, as in the aftermath of the 9/11 catastrophe, which many informed persons believe was only accomplished by some level of complicity of the U.S. government itself. So, in order to promote feeling of well-being and security of the American people, the U.S. Government has created the illusion of an investigatioin of the disaster, while stonewalling and hiding the evidence that would explain the disasters. A "Homeland Security" agency has been created which provides further illusions of security, while laying the basis for control of the population when the shit finally hits the fan. The mechanisms of homeland security are already being used to stifle dissent, to spy on the American people and likely to establish databases from which future covert and public actions can be taken to eliminate dissent altogether by whatever means necessary. Threats to "national security" in other nations trained by U.S. "counterinsurgency" forces have resulted in many, many thousands of "missing" people, and the same possibility is highly predictable in the U.S. itself in the intermediate future.

Many tragedies are now inevitable for the American people and the industrial civilizations of the world. It is just a matter of time before world petroleum-based fuel prices skyrocket. This will likely end modern agriculture as we have known it, making food production at the scale necessary for our civilization impossible. At the same time, the economies of the major nations of the world will implode in an ocean of debt. The retirement funds of the masses will be meaningless, but the wealthy will have stashed away wealth and military armaments to protect themselves through the expected years of upheaval and population die-off.

There can be no doubt that the wealthy, corporate elite expects an eventual die-off of economies and masses of humans around the world. They are rigging the situation to survive while the masses perish. They will use their wealth and power to pay for their own survival, believing themselves to be superior by virtue of their ability to concentrate and consolidate their wealth at the expense of the masses.

It may be too late already for the situation to be reversed. As long as the masses of working people are willing to see their work, their efforts, their skills and their sweat and blood distilled into wealth by the ruling class, they have no long-term hope. The entire system of economics, taxes, and government, plus media, is geared to the advantage of the greedy and against the needy. To keep the masses pacified, illusions of normaly, security, and prosperity are projected through media. The dumbed down masses have fallen for the bait -- hook, line and sinker.

And the crash will be hard. When the shit hits the fan, a lot of angry people will realize they have been duped and now their end will be in sight. Then, the security forces will begin the slaughter, even as food become scarce, global climate change becomes a real danger to life itself, and the rich take cover behind their carefully planned escape routes and procedures.

This avalanche is all set up. It will not be prevented for one and only reason -- sheer human greed by all involved. Even the so-called human democracies have failed to predict the coming disaster, because greed, not principle, has dominated the workings of the democracies.

The fan is blowing now, and the revolutions are increasing in tempo. it is just a matter of time before the merde hits the fan.

[Edit]

also -- qwerty, 00:16:51 12/03/03 Wed

>Second, don't ever carry much cash while going through custom.

forgot to mention ... don't carry much money while driving around

law enforcement people in certain communities across america set up car stops. if they find cash, they just take it and may give you a receipt for "indeteriminate amount of cash" ... you'll never get it back

the US is getting as bad as mexico at all levels

utah and washington had ballot questions concerning asset seizures where they could only take the assets if they could prove one committed a crime. about 70% voted for it. amazingly, 30% voted against it. the patriot act 2 legislation overrides it i guess. the politicians in utah have been trying to reverse it and i think they did.

[Edit]

Silver - Butler -- Netking, 00:05:48 12/03/03 Wed

http://www.investmentrarities.com/12-02-03.html

Some more classic Ted, bless ya man, enough to make any silverbug spill his Nescafe & the Mrs to give that knowing sigh, he's preaching to the converted here, but so what:

"...It is the cheapest item in the investment universe, with no exception. It is in a pronounced and obvious deficit. Inventories have been decimated. Soon no government, not even that of Red China, will be able to stop its rise. It has the largest naked short position in history. It is a world item that knows no boundaries. It is overlooked, but more people recognize its value daily. It has been manipulated in price and, with more people becoming aware of the manipulation, termination of the manipulation is assured. It is the ultimate logical investment. I don't care who you are, from Warren Buffett to a high school kid, once you know the real story of silver, you're going to buy it because you think it's a sure thing. It's not probable that someone with investable funds who has an open mind, and investigates the story, will not consider buying silver in some shape or form. Believe me, there are a lot more people like that in the world than there is silver..."

[Edit]

ASSET SEIZURES is the END GAME -- qwerty, 00:02:40 12/03/03 Wed

FOLKS, we are truly entering the dark ages

In reading peoples take on the END GAME for gold, there is one thing I very rarely see mentioned even though there are hundreds of laws passed on it.

ASSET FORFEITURES

An interesting statistic

80% of the people who have had their assets taken away were NEVER CHARGED WITH ANY CRIME

As I remember the rest ...

In the remaining 20%, only 1 in 20 are ever brought to trial.

In that bunch brought to trial, only 1 in 5 were convicted

In all cases, the federal, state and local officials were able to legally seize assets and not return them.

In states like Maryland or Virginia, they can seize assets on a whim.

The ASSET SEIZURE laws were passed by the federal and state government, who were heavily involved in most of the drug trafficking, to fight drug trafficking.

The asset seizure laws were supposedly made to go after the kingpins of the drug trade. The people the laws are being used against are INNOCENT people.

What the legislatures did was allow officials at the local, state and national levels to share in the proceeds in a big way including putting it in their own bank accounts. In essence, government officials are able to legally carry out THEFT of peoples property on a whim.

Some person in Maryland told me that someone had their apartment building taken away because one of his tenants was involved in drugs. Pretty outrageous. Maryland is a communist state.

Homeland security is able to get assets seized on because they "suspect"

ASSET FORFEITURE laws as currently fashioned are blatantly UNCONSTITUTIONAL. The legislatures on the local, state and national level have in essence legalized THEFT of private property.

We are pretty much at the stage when the SOVIET UNION or NAZIS came into existence

Already, law enforcement on the local, state and national levels are carrying this out. The politicians and judges are complict in this THEFT and share in the proceeds.

The problem is really not the politicians and officials doing the stealing, it is the stupid US citizen who has chosen blind patriotism and tune out reality

This to me marks the end of America.

What does this mean to you ?

First, anything that is cash or can be carried away can be legally stolen from you by the looters saying it was used in terrorist or drug transactions or "other" stuff. If you have gold or silver and if you bury it, they could torture you to tell them where it is.

Second, don't ever carry much cash while going through custom. They can take it from you saying it is drug money. You won't get it back.

You have to prove your innocent. Even if you prove it, they can keep it.

People worried over a Roosevelt repeat are worrying over nothing.

My observation is that the legalized looting is by design. It is a way for the elites to strip people of their wealth. A portion of the american families will benefit in these criminal acts but like most americans, they won't care until they get screwed.

A lot of Americans are in a deep political coma. Many of them will be getting a wake up call but it will be too late. This will be during and after they get their pensions, 401K, real estate and DOW stocks wiped out.

Even many goldbugs will celebrate their wealth may get caught blindsided.

I think in canada, they haven't allowed sharing of proceeds on the local level. That minimizes the government crime of asset seizures. Also, a crime needs to be proven. Has that changed.

i will probably look into living in canada for a time and then decide maybe somewhere else later. Especially before General Franks creates the next terrorist event before the 2004 election. I don't want to be in america when it is disintegrating too much.

The legislature in canada sold canada out as well but the canadian people are not as rabidly stupid as american people. I remember the socialist party ( third party ) in canada the biggest opponent of NAFTA. When the time came, they signed on in support of that. Even the canadians don't know how tainted their parties are. The NWO controls the third parties in this hemisphere.

there doesn't seem to be much political intelligence among the populations for freedom to prevail. my observation of third world people is that they are 10 times smarter about what goes on in this world then the average american.

criminals control the government and security apparatus

There will be a lot of carnage going on.

it is the political stupid citizenry who blind themselves to all the injustices around them including asset forfeitures and just as worse, support the criminals in political offices. They both deserve each other.

for the ones aware of what is happening, i would just recommend you try to step out of the way of the oncoming train.

[Edit]

Iraqnam -- www.iraqwar.ru, 23:51:39 12/02/03 Tue

US claims rise to 54 killed in big Iraq ambush; residents say at most 9 died, doctors say 8 civillians killed

The first casualty in any war is truth, yar.

British forces face push by Shias for autonomy in south

Killings of former Baath party officials and the toppling of hundreds of power pylons are sending danger signals to British commanders and officials seeking to control southern Iraq. They are seen as signs that Shia Muslims, the overwhelming majority in the south, are seeking to establish their autonomy from Baghdad. Compared with the conflagration in central Iraq, the British sector is relatively peaceful. But the targeted shooting of Baathists - mainly Sunni Muslims who sought to stay behind in the region after the defeat of the regime - and systematic sabotage of power lines going to Baghdad are seen by some as the first aggressive moves of an embryonic Shia confederacy. Last week, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the country's senior Shia cleric, rejected American plans for transfer of power to an indirectly elected transitional government, and called for direct elections. This highlighted the new-found confidence and influence of the Shias.

[Edit]

Forex today per USD -- Netking, 23:20:31 12/02/03 Tue

AUD .7331 [last here on 10/01/1997]
NZD .6473 [10/01/1997]
EUR 1.2110 [10/19/1998]

[Edit]

Current POG, POS, POP & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 22:41:43 12/02/03 Tue

[Edit]

number six -- qwerty, 22:20:16 12/02/03 Tue

I don't have gobs of money to throw at stuff like some people have so I have to take what I have and make it go further and get better quality gold stocks but ones that also have some leverage potential.

My strategy for obtaining more DROOY was to first buy a large chunk of caledonia mine. Being a speculative stock, I would expect that stock to increase faster than DROOY

At some point, I will sell caledonia and will be able to buy more DROOY shares than I could before. The high RAND is what is causing DROOY to stagnate. Since caledonia has mines in South Africa, the RAND is probably hurting them also. I see people criticize management of DROOY etc. That is just noise in the big picture.

If caledonia goes up enough, I will put the money in another stock also. Embry mentioned Thistle Mining as another one.

I have wanted to buy WHT too but that seems to be taking off too fast. If Silver takes a major jump, WHT should do very well. Also, it has a large number of properties and future aquisitions which will bring it up to the next level.

A stock I like maybe a better is VGX but I suspect that will jump out of the starting gate too fast.

I look at the high RAND as something helpful.

my guess is that CALVF will increase at least twice the rate of DROOY from here on

any opinions here on how the rate of increase will compare between the two

[Edit]

j-man -- ET, 21:11:27 12/02/03 Tue

Hey j-man, thanks for your thoughts. You wrote in part:

“I'll be right up-front with you here ET, our perceptions indeed seem to differ on several fronts. My perceptions [1] are that relatively few folks understand free-markets or theoretical capitalism, and that except for the internet so far, despite the rhetoric and as is the historical precedent, markets are getting less and less free and more and more controlled.”

How can you say this? Did you miss the fall of communism in the USSR and its satellites? How about the opening of trade in China? These would seem to be rather significant events in the whole scheme of controlled markets. You know, j-man, the world isn’t just the West. You should read Jim Rogers’ latest book concerning his travels around the world. He wouldn’t concur with your thinking at all.

(snip)

”I expect you're right when you say "the market process virtually everywhere in the world is well understood by the participants," and as you suggest, "they already know what a marketplace is, they use it everyday." But which marketplace [2] is it they "understand" and "use everyday" -- and do they understand it consciously or only use it and take it for granted?

”It seems to me -- my perception, take it or leave it -- that the marketplace they understand is the one they almost certainly experience, and in all "civilized" western countries, that's the controlled mercantilist market place. As a rule of thumb, if you're paying sales tax, you're in a controlled market. And often, even if you aren't paying sales tax, producers and sellers are regulated seven ways to Sunday. I don't think you need documentation for this??”

No, I need no documentation of that. However, it does nothing to support your contention that markets are getting more controlled rather than less. Perhaps markets in the US are more controlled than in the past, but it is insignificant in the whole scheme of things relative to the money issues. The bad money has a much larger impact on both consumer and producer costs than sales taxes. Of course, we also now have ebay, the free market in new and used stuff. I’m sure politicians of all stripes have their sights set on these types of organizations, but like I said before, they are becoming increasingly difficult to regulate and tax because they are decentralized.

(snip)

”It is fully possible that my perceptions of what I think people believe, built on observations of u.S. culture in the 50s & 60s, my formative years -- and fostered by exposure to Rand -- are out dated. If you could provide some documentation or your reasons for what appears to me as extreme optimism, I'd be much obliged, and I'd be quite happy to join the ranks of the optimistic.”

I don’t think optimistic is the correct term. I tend to try to be realistic. Since the 50’s and 60’s you can’t deny that the world has become a much freer place. I tried to say the other day that the trend towards decentralization of power can only have a positive impact on individuals no matter where they reside. We have decades of problems to overcome where governments have gotten completely out of control. I’m not saying these problems will be overcome overnight and probably not in our lifetimes, but the trend is now working in our favor rather than against us. Technology is driving the world away from centralization and at the same time lowering the cost of information for all. I can’t make somebody take advantage of these trends, but I know some will.

Let me give you some examples of the trends I see and you tell me if you don’t see these as headed in the right direction:

• The fall of communism – this was absolutely the pinnacle in demonstrating the bankrupt idea of complete central planning.

• The bankruptcy of socialistic governments – Europe, Japan, the US, Canada, etc., nearly all the West has debt-equity ratios that will soon lead to bankruptcy. The young will leave these countries for environs that don’t saddle them with the debt of the previous generations. When this occurs, the governments will be forced to downsize, leading to less regulation and cost to taxpayers. If they don’t downsize, they will become irrelevant, as no one is going to work and turn over their entire check to the bureaucrats.

• The internet, along with cell phone technology - are the two greatest inventions of the last 50 years. These technologies are changing the face of the planet. They are allowing information and capital to pass freely and quickly wherever people want. It is becoming increasingly difficult to fool the public or investors. It is easy for big labor and big government to regulate say, a car plant or the phone company, because the asset is fixed in a given location, but once the asset can be moved away from the regulators easily, the regulators will have to try to encourage the asset to stay or lose jobs and taxes. We certainly see this today as manufacturing and services are moving to lower cost environs.

• Decentralized business – have you noticed the earnings at the giant corporations? It is doubtful many of them are making any money after you factor out the phony accounting. They are having a difficult time because their size is now working against them. They can’t change as fast as the small entrepreneur armed with a laptop, the internet, and multiple sources of production inputs. The small guy can garner a huge amount of information, change his methodology to address the niche markets he finds, and be on to the next market before the big corporations can have their first meeting to address the change in the marketplace. The big corporations will find it increasingly difficult to compete despite their cozy relationship with government.

• Collapse of the fiat currencies – I surely don’t need to go into why this is going to hurt everyone expecting things to remain the same. A side effect of all this has been the inability of big business, despite the preferential treatment from banks and government, to find anything to invest in. Their customary advantage of being able to borrow cheaply does them no good now that they’ve all built plants to produce things that people either don’t want or can’t afford. That cozy relationship with government has more or less put them into a position of financial insecurity. They’ve been borrowing their cash flow to make up for the lack of profits. I wouldn’t be buying their securities.

I could go on and on, j-man. There is no shortage of good news. By the time you’ve convinced a few lefties that markets are good, the world will have passed both you and the lefties by. I guess I don’t feel the need to convince people that adore government that their position is absurd. Besides, it’s just another guy I’d have to compete with should he ever figure out what’s going on. That old free market is going to kick their tail anyway.
The battle isn’t at the ballot box, or even for the minds of the people, it’s in the marketplace. The individual is freeing himself from the bonds of government and you best be trying to keep up. Good luck!

[Edit]

Aaron Russo...Pro Gold Presidential Candidate -- auspec, 20:17:08 12/02/03 Tue

http://www.russoforpresident.com

Interesting platform.

[Edit]

Judgement Day cometh ! -- hAug, 19:28:07 12/02/03 Tue

Word has it, ol' Santa is making his list and checking it twice.

Gonna find out who's been naughty and nice !

[Edit]

Breakout -- RossL, 18:30:00 12/02/03 Tue

The price of gold in SDRs has broken out above 276 to a new multi-year high. See the green line on the chart.

The SDR represents a worldwide basket of fiat moneys and is a creation of the International Money Fund (IMF). This chart shows that the gold uptrend is not due solely to the decline of the dollar, as some in the media are suggesting.

[Edit]

Gold watching bonds now. -- volavka, 15:56:55 12/02/03 Tue

dollar / bonds, look @ volume.

http://stockcharts.com/def/servlet/SC.web?c=$USB,uu[l,a]daclyyay[db][pb200][vc60][iUb14!La12,26,9]&pref=G

[Edit]

quote from another board (End Game) -- volavka, 15:51:55 12/02/03 Tue

The most moves in the chess game are in the end game.
Why? Because the fewest pieces remain.
You will know you are in the end game when
1 ) Gold is illegal to own/trade ( = supporting terrorism financing )
2 ) You still own gold.

Know the standard moves, set-ups, and counterattacks before the end game arrives. Otherwise, you will be one of those pieces already removed from the board.

[Edit]

Hope I'm wrong @ET, ALL -- journeyman, 13:42:55 12/02/03 Tue

Hi again ET!

I'll be right up-front with you here ET, our perceptions indeed seem to differ on several fronts. My perceptions [1] are that relatively few folks understand free-markets or theoretical capitalism, and that except for the internet so far, despite the rhetoric and as is the historical precedent, markets are getting less and less free and more and more controlled.

I completely concurr with you and Flinter that sound money (gold and silver) would go a long way to beginning to get things straightened out, but that still would only be a beginning. And we haven't returned to the gold standard, let alone hard money, yet.

History, unfortunately, is on my side here -- once the tradition becomes that governments can be bought, businesses get divided into two camps: Those that buy/curry government favor and those that don't. Gradually the ones that don't, operating under competitive disadvantages, tend to disappear. The destination of this process is clear.

And there are similar anti-free market forces from the population in general: It's our buyer half (losing) vs. our seller half (using government and "winning".)

Now to be completely honest, I hope like hell (sorry HBM, et.al.) you're right, ET, and I'm wrong. And I'm rooting for you. But even if you are correct, I don't think we can let our guard down.

I don't think you've defined the problems correctly at all. First of all, the market process virtually everywhere in the world is well understood by the participants. It isn't a matter of educating people as to what a free market is, they already know what a marketplace is, they use it everyday. -ET

I expect you're right when you say "the market process virtually everywhere in the world is well understood by the participants," and as you suggest, "they already know what a marketplace is, they use it everyday." But which marketplace [2] is it they "understand" and "use everyday" -- and do they understand it consciously or only use it and take it for granted?

It seems to me -- my perception, take it or leave it -- that the marketplace they understand is the one they almost certainly experience, and in all "civilized" western countries, that's the controlled mercantilist market place. As a rule of thumb, if you're paying sales tax, you're in a controlled market. And often, even if you aren't paying sales tax, producers and sellers are regulated seven ways to Sunday. I don't think you need documentation for this??

Here's a description of a free market for any of you who haven't made up your mind yet:

A free market is a theoretical geographical area in which people can trade anything they own for anything others own and are willing to trade --- and at what ever "price" they agree to without any coercion --- and no interference by ANY unwanted third parties in any way what-so-ever. No rules, regulations, orders, or controls. No taxes. No loom-stealers or vat-smashers. No protections for either "buyers" (those with "money" to trade) or sellers (those traders who want to trade FOR "money") unless they agree to such between (or among) themselves. Certainly no protection for the "vested interests of entrepreneurs, capitalists, land-owners, and workers" or any other non-participating, non-present (establishment) traders simply because they don't like the competiton!
+
As I think you can see, we don't have any free markets in the united States, except perhaps in the case of private transactions that ignore all the rules, regulations, orders and controls - - - and if the people involved don't pay any "Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises" to unwanted third parties. In a major perversion of fact and practice, such unhampered free-market transactions are regularly labeled as occuring in a "black market" -- because, remember, the establishment "vested interests" (including business, labor and our seller half) don't like the effects free-market competition has on the prices they are able to charge. Free Trade: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly: The Ugly

Perhaps this doesn't all ring true to you? Well, Mises explains it in a bit more scholarly manner:

The consumers do not care about the investments made with regard to past market conditions and do not bother about the vested interests of entrepreneurs, capitalists, land-owners, and workers, who may be hurt by changes in the structure of prices. Such sentiments play no role in the formation of prices (It is precisely the fact that the market does not respect vested interests that makes the people concerned ask for government interference.) [emphasis added] -Ludwig von Mises, Human Action A Treatise on Economics, Third Revised Edition (Chicago, Illinois: Contemporary Books, Inc. 1966), pg. 337 [available also from http://www.mises.org/humanaction.asp]

So we are not only up against the "vested interests" of capitalists and entrepreneurs, we are also up against land-owners and workers when we advocate free trade in free markets. It's for that reason I think we have a lot of work to do if we hope not to become more mercantilist, even fascist.

I don't think people are as woefully uneducated as you apparently believe. -ET

Secondly, your second premise [that people equate the word "capitalism" with mercantilist behavior -j.] is just plain wrong. You take a defined term, as you've done below, then change the definition to fit the outcome you want, and declare that "pop culture" doesn't get it. -ET

I don't think most people associate corrupt government / big business with capitalism. I would be very interested in your documentation of this claim, since your whole argument revolves around it. -ET

Good! If you're correct, people aren't "woefully uneducated," most people don't "associate corrupt government / big business with capitalism" -- and "pop culture" does get it, that makes our job a lot easier.

Yes, j-man, you can certainly document, over and over, the problems with government interference in the marketplace. However, you, for some reason, want to then turn around and blame the disease on the marketplace. Sorry, your argument lacks any credibility. That is why we have definitions for terms. You correctly describe fascism for what it is. Unfortunately for your argument, it isn't capitalism, unless of course you change the definition of capitalism to that of fascism. -ET

I don't blame the disease on anything, I just describe its etiology. Selfishness, particularly "clique selfishness" [3] is the base upon which this "disease" is built, and a firm altruistic base [4] it is, solidly rooted in human nature. Government is the "vector" that delivers it to our door, gaining much of it's power by promising to do just the opposite. My preference to fix things would to be to completely eliminate the vector from the marketplace -- and for that matter, elsewhere.

And, unfortunately, it is my perception that not everyone accepts the Austrian/Randian dictionary definition for "capitalism." And it is my perception that the perceptions they do have of what they think of as "capitalism" are not positive.

You regularly see the nasty corporation or businessman or "capitalist" portrayed in movies and/or TV shows polluting the environment, making the poor live in cold rat infested tenement houses, forcing immigrants to work in sweat-shops, etc. Lefties are particularly prone to such images. One classic, sure to impinge on our consciousness's soon, is good old capitalist Ebaneezer Scrooge -- who was probably just trying to save-up his money for later investment! ;>

You're winning and you don't even know it. SLATT is right and I agree with him entirely; the world is not headed for the doom and gloom scenario so many seem to want to believe is just around the corner. Like I mentioned earlier, capitalism is breaking out all over. Everything you've criticized in your posts is the reaction of vested interests trying to hang on to the past. Take a look at the future; more of the world is abandoning controlled markets everyday. Because of technology, the average guy is becoming more adept at circumventing controls on both capital accumulation and trade. The real source of your anguish, as I see it j-man, is the bad money, not some argument over the definition of capitalism. None of the problems you've cited would be near as bad or even in existence, were money sound. The rising price of gold is a good omen, my friend. It signifies that markets are abandoning the fascist model. Actually, I believe this is occurring because the marketplace is much freer than you want to believe. Those that have benefited from the status quo will no doubt try to keep things in place, but like the Russian government learned, at some point, people just walk away. It's a market thing. -ET

It is fully possible that my perceptions of what I think people believe, built on observations of u.S. culture in the 50s & 60s, my formative years -- and fostered by exposure to Rand -- are out dated. If you could provide some documentation or your reasons for what appears to me as extreme optimism, I'd be much obliged, and I'd be quite happy to join the ranks of the optimistic.

Even so, I'm pretty sure I will run across a stray lefty here and there who doesn't understand or like "capitalism." When I do, I will stick to my "jujitsu approach," agreeing that indeed "capitalism" is bad but free trade in free markets is good.

And if you should ever run across such a stray lefty -- assuming your approach was less than successful in the past -- you might consider trying some such approach yourself. As the saying goes, "If you keep doing what you did, you'll keep getting what you got."

And remember, even classic Randian/Austrian "capitalism" is compatible with "mercantilism" -- your local cable monopoly privately "owns the means of production" and the money it raised from investors to buy those "means" was probably saved and invested privately. On the other hand and by definition, a cable monopoly simply wouldn't survive long in a free-market.

Highest regards,
j-man

NOTES:

[1] I do like to document everything I can, and go to ridiculous lengths to do so on occassion. However there are some things that can't be easily documented -- by anyone. When that happens, I lapse to normal sources - - I go with my experience and gut instincts -- my perceptions. Yours may be as good as mine or even better. Your call. return

[2] I chose marketplace here rather than "market process" because I doubt that most folks, including most small entrepreneurs, think in terms of "process." Mega-capitalist organizations I suspect, but don't know, do. Again my perceptions only. return

[3] Based on social-dilemma studies, psychologist Marilynn B. Brewer of the University of California, Los Angeles, suggests that if the sense of belonging and identity provided by small groups is essential to human functioning, then "clique selfishness" may well be more powerful than even the most rabid individual self-interest. -Bruce Bower, "Getting Out From Number One," SCIENCE NEWS, April 28, 1990, p. 267. return

[4] This sounds contradictory -- "altruistic base" and "clique selfishness" -- but it isn't. Ask me. return

[Edit]

fwgo -- volavka, 13:15:38 12/02/03 Tue

fwgo

[Edit]

"stench..." -- OmarD, 11:42:44 12/02/03 Tue

Not much new here, but it's a good summary, and I like the attitude & "shareing" with others that might here.

The new item for me is Condi Rice saying in 2001 that we were successfully keeping Saddam from his weapons. Has anybody seen that before?

http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/kaufmann.html

December 1, 2003

Strike up the band
Motherhood and apple pie served up amid the stench of burning humans
By BILL KAUFMANN -- Calgary Sun

Another night, another gathering of cannon fodder for a Bush campaign backdrop.

The hoo-ah glory of it all, the star-spangled heroism, this time energized a Colorado Army base hosting a White House resident talking tough to those who'll actually be in tough.

Strike up the band and serve up more motherhood and apple pie amid the stench of burning humans in Iraq, the headless bodies, organs seeping from shredded torsos, the lifeless stares and limbless orphans, where reality plays itself out for a Texan vowing to "finish the job" he so valiantly initiated.

Those gung-ho, howling GIs needn't know the New York Times reported on Nov. 6 that back channel negotiations between the Americans and Saddam just prior to the invasion had offered the U.S. virtually everything it had demanded.

It was rebuffed by the folks whose "first choice is never war."

"Duty sometimes requires the violent restraint of violent men," Bush told his UK audience recently.

It's straight-shootin' Texas talk with no room for irony.

But not to worry, reporters at the Fort Carson, Colo. love-in were forbidden to interview or speak to the soldiers.

"I love freedom of speech ..." assures Bush, and often.

That Bush-style freedom of speech sure comes in handy, because it'd be unAmerican to let the troops know National Security Adviser Condi Rice insisted to CNN in 2001 that "we are able to keep (Saddam's) arms from him."

But they've got it figured out now and if you disagree, you'll be set right by the new Bush campaign come-ons accusing opponents of "attacking the president for attacking terrorists."

That's right -- bogging down America's military to battle Iraqi guerrillas opposed to foreign occupation is integral in keeping safe America's shores from terrorism because ... it just is.

Those rocket-propelled grenades have a long range.

Just as lethal is the clearly treasonous talk among the intelligence community, expressing disbelief their leaders would equate subduing Iraqi nationalism with anti-terrorism.

"There's no connection (to al-Qaida) months after we've gone through the documentation of Iraqi intelligence and yet we go to war with Iraq ... the mind boggles," ex-CIA Mideast agent Robert Baer told CBC's Fifth Estate.

Baer insists it's common knowledge among the intelligence community that the Saudis financed the mostly Saudi Sept. 11 hijackers and wonders aloud if Bush family ties with the kingdom have anything to do with the blind eye turned.

But wait, the Saudis haven't been ignored, argues Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, who told Vanity Fair earlier this year the U.S. invaded Iraq partly so it could pull its 5,000 troops out of the kingdom and thus reduce terrorism.

"(Our presence there) has been a huge recruiting device for al-Qaida ... just lifting the burden from the Saudis is going to open the door to a more peaceful Middle East," said Wolfowitz, sounding suspiciously like an appeaser.

A senior Bush official linking U.S. Mideast military policy to terrorist recruitment? He must have been misquoted!

We all know America doesn't "cut and run" from "thugs."

Meanwhile, the theme "the world under Bush has gotten so scary I have to vote for Bush" has worked until now, so why shouldn't those new Republican ads warn "it would take one vial or crate slipped into this country to bring ... horror."

Beware the Iraqi mules of mass destruction and we can all be thankful Bush stood peerless guard Sept. 11, 2001, though we may never know just how resolutely, since he refuses to release all the documents pertaining to that day.

There's no need to bring up the pesky past, though it's worth noting then-defence secretary Dick Cheney in 1991 defended the decision of Dubya's dad not to invade Iraq, citing the "quagmire" danger.

What does he say now?

And bringing democracy and self-rule to Iraq should be a cinch as long as it's understood that making rude movies about Republican prophets won't be tolerated in the colony.

It's off to a good start with last week's appointment of an American, Rend Rahim Francke, as Iraqi ambassador to the U.S.

Who needs puppets when you can cut out the middleman?

And if an Iraqi "government" should actually bow to the wishes of the people and order out all American troops and oilpatch firms, the solution is tried and true -- regime change.

They wouldn't even have to invade this time -- just send in the regime change garrison based out of one of Saddam's palaces.

---

Wa Salaam,

OmarD

[Edit]

Au & Ag -- Netking, 09:59:09 12/02/03 Tue

Fair use snippet from Eric Hadik's 'INSIIDE Track'

"...Gold & Silver are poised for a final surge into a VERY uncanny cycle during the week of Dec. 15--19th! . . . Suffice it to say that Gold & Silver are entering a momentous period within their evolving bull markets!..."

[Edit]

Chinamen and Indians -- volavka, 09:58:03 12/02/03 Tue

Bush only relates to cowboys and native americans.

It's the dollar george.
Washing a ton of the georges' down the drain.

[Edit]

uncn -- volavka, 09:29:13 12/02/03 Tue

uncn

[Edit]

GATA re Sinclair -- auspec, 04:37:31 12/02/03 Tue

12:03a ET Tuesday, December 2, 2003

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Tan Range CEO and gold trader extraordinaire Jim
Sinclair has more bold assertions tonight:

* The short position in gold is unprecedented and
losing massive amounts of money.

* International financial market developments are
combining to boost the gold price.

* Proprietary indicators for the gold market signal
repeated bolts of higher prices, starting within days.

* The gold cartel is about to disintegrate.

* Intervention against gold will fail.

You can read it here, headlined "Taking Stock":

http://www.jsmineset.com/

Sweet dreams and hold on tight.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action

[Edit]

j-man -- ET, 21:44:25 12/01/03 Mon

Hey j-man, thanks for coming out of retirement. You wrote in part:

“No, ET. There are actually two problems. The main problem is how best to explain the market process effectively so we can keep the world from going fascist. The traditional way has clearly been a flop. [1] The second problem is closely related and it is, as you suggest, that I say capitalism and mercantilism, in practice, not in theory, are so closely related they are synonymous.”

I don’t think you’ve defined the problems correctly at all. First of all, the market process virtually everywhere in the world is well understood by the participants. It isn’t a matter of educating people as to what a free market is, they already know what a marketplace is, they use it everyday. I don’t think people are as woefully uneducated as you apparently believe. Secondly, your second premise is just plain wrong. You take a defined term, as you’ve done below, then change the definition to fit the outcome you want, and declare that “pop culture” doesn’t get it.

”It's the "capitalism" in C., as understood by pop culture, that I oppose -- and I think you do too, ET. That's the capitalism that uses government -- and deceptive practices, etc. It's that ‘big-business fascist capitalism’ that most people conjure-up when they hear the word ‘capitalism.’”

See j-man, once again you come across with a totally unsubstantiated assertion that you have yet to make good on. I don’t think “most people conjure-up” anything of the kind. I think most people know that governments are corrupt. I think most people know that big business works with government to get its way around the world. So what? I don’t think most people associate corrupt government / big business with capitalism. I would be very interested in your documentation of this claim, since your whole argument revolves around it.

(snip more of the same)

”If you, ET, had a choice of selling your services in a context where you had a monopoly and no competition vs. a free market context where there was a lot of competition, which would you choose? Which situation would allow you to pay the biggest dividends and highest salaries to your employees? If you went to a bank for funding, which situation would be more likely to get you your loan?

”Once you caught on to this advantage of monopolies, would you go out and look for some? Would you, perhaps, try to create your own? And once you learned that a good way to get one is to hire government minions to keep out the "sin" of competition, would you go into partnership with governments? In your case, I don't think so -- and that's a compliment of sorts, but once government is helping your competitor, if you don't, economically you're swimming up stream. I think Flinter's post pretty much shows a likely result of such "swimming up stream" in agri-business.

”See, "capitalists" -- even jaycees -- don't like free trade in free markets. I know -- this is seriously perverse, but if you can think about it clearly, you know it's true. More particularly, everyone -- and particularly "capitalists" -- want to buy in free markets -- because competition keeps their costs down -- but sell into protected markets - - because lack of competiton allows them to increase their prices. You'd have to be a crazy capitalist not to consider this. It becomes part of the "fiduciary responsibility."

”This is why, once government enters the picture and is available for hire, capitalists nearly always, given the chance, must act as mercantilist/fascists. [4]

”You now have both the real-world evidence and the logic behind it. You can't separate "capitalism" -- except in theory -- from how "capitalists" must behave if they can, particularly in the modern world. That's why I say that the word capitalism (in the C. definition above) always (O.K., nearly always) is associated with mercantilism/fascism, and why, in that sense, I'm an anti-capitalist. And in this sense of the word, I think you are too, ET.”

Yes, j-man, you can certainly document, over and over, the problems with government interference in the marketplace. However, you, for some reason, want to then turn around and blame the disease on the marketplace. Sorry, your argument lacks any credibility. That is why we have definitions for terms. You correctly describe fascism for what it is. Unfortunately for your argument, it isn’t capitalism, unless of course you change the definition of capitalism to that of fascism.

(snip repeat of previous posts)

“I know this goes against the grain, ET, but keeping in mind which definition of "capitalism" you're referring to -- and that all forms of capitalism are at least compatible with mercantilism [5] -- might help. This should markedly increase your effectiveness. And after all, you indirectly told me you're not having much luck with lefties (the "approximately half the population" in question [6]) when you posted:
Thanks! And good luck in your quest to convince lefties of anything reasonable. -ET
And there's a bonus -- lefties, motivated by their "hearts," are much more likely to do things -- you know, make noise, demonstrate, etc. -- than are conservatives. We're going to need a lot of noise if we hope to escape a more full blown fascist/mercantilist police state than we already have. At base, we're losing, I think, largely because of a semantic deficit.”

You’re winning and you don’t even know it. SLATT is right and I agree with him entirely; the world is not headed for the doom and gloom scenario so many seem to want to believe is just around the corner. Like I mentioned earlier, capitalism is breaking out all over. Everything you’ve criticized in your posts is the reaction of vested interests trying to hang on to the past. Take a look at the future; more of the world is abandoning controlled markets everyday. Because of technology, the average guy is becoming more adept at circumventing controls on both capital accumulation and trade. The real source of your anguish, as I see it j-man, is the bad money, not some argument over the definition of capitalism. None of the problems you’ve cited would be near as bad or even in existence, were money sound. The rising price of gold is a good omen, my friend. It signifies that markets are abandoning the fascist model. Actually, I believe this is occurring because the marketplace is much freer than you want to believe. Those that have benefited from the status quo will no doubt try to keep things in place, but like the Russian government learned, at some point, people just walk away. It’s a market thing.

[Edit]

Gross National Deficit Update -- HBM, 19:54:46 12/01/03 Mon

The cumulative gross deficit for October and November of the current fiscal year ending on 09/30/04 came in at $141.8 Billion Dollars. The gross deficit for the first two months of the prior fiscal year ended 09-30-03 was $115.2 Billion.

The gross deficit for the current year is outpacing the record deficit of last year ($555 Billion) by 23%.

HBM

[Edit]

Those who purchased @ .015- .03 -- volavka, 18:46:26 12/01/03 Mon

fwgo:

http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=fwgo&sid=0&o_symb=fwgo

[Edit]

Bush -- volavka, 12:59:32 12/01/03 Mon

better strap on the iron cup going to Pittsburgh with the steel curtain.

Steel china shopping are we.

[Edit]

BRAIN SURGERY -- volavka, 11:52:14 12/01/03 Mon

Today was a given for up: into the close as rolling over dec to feb.

[Edit]

Don't ever forget -- volavka, 11:48:44 12/01/03 Mon

Long live the queen, follow england and :

BUY HIGH AND SELL LOW......

[Edit]

ca:mdw -- volavka, 10:40:44 12/01/03 Mon

http://biz.yahoo.com/ccn/031201/5207d90ce4c1c53f63df8fcad254c2a1_1.html

[Edit]

The three faces of Eve @ET, ALL -- journeyman, 10:11:10 12/01/03 Mon

Hi ET, Flinter, SLATT, ALL!

In tune with the Bush Administration I am:

1. Breaking a promise (not to post about Capitalism vs. free markets again)

2. Spinning the fact with misdirective labels (i.e. calling this post "The three faces of Eve")

Why am I behaving in such a dastardly fashion? Because ET & the rest of us are clearly losing -- not to each other, but to the "forces of darkness and, yes, even 'evil'."

So, let's go - - -

No, j-man. The problem has been your claim that capitalism and mercantilism are one and the same and always have been. That is precisely what you stated in your previous posts. So are you now conceding that I have been right all along that capitalism and mercantilism are indeed quite different? -ET

No, ET. There are actually two problems. The main problem is how best to explain the market process effectively so we can keep the world from going fascist. The traditional way has clearly been a flop. [1] The second problem is closely related and it is, as you suggest, that I say capitalism and mercantilism, in practice, not in theory, are so closely related they are synonymous.

The word "capitalism" has at least three different but, unfortunately, related (and thus confusing) uses:

A. A relatively precise word used especially by Austrian economists to describe how folks save-up to buy equipment to make them more productive at what they do. This system requires no special rules to function -- if "private" property rights are a part of the wider culture.

B. A word used to distinguish how things are produced in societies which include strict respect for property rights as part of their culture (that is, "private ownership of the means of production") as contrasted to societies without property rights, particularly regarding the means of production.

C. A word used in pop culture to refer to the ways large economic organizations function in the real world.

I have absolutely no problem with the process described as "capitalism" in definition A. It's a good and life- improving activity, which in the long run is good for nearly everyone and should be encouraged.

Ayn Rand's chosen definition -- private ownership of the means of production, essentially B. -- is very useful, especially if contrasting a communistic form of fascism where the state claims outright ownership of everything. Otherwise, not too useful.

It's the "capitalism" in C., as understood by pop culture, that I oppose -- and I think you do too, ET. That's the capitalism that uses government -- and deceptive practices, etc. It's that "big-business fascist capitalism" that most people conjure-up when they hear the word "capitalism."

I understand that you would like everyone to accept the definitions of "capitalism" we both learned from Rand and the Austrians. If they did, we wouldn't be engaged in this exchange. But they don't. Their definition and understanding of the word is different from those. Instead, they see "capitalism" as what those most visible "capitalists," the "captains of industry," do.

Now if examples of this "kind" of "pop culture capitalism" were rare flukes, O.K. Maybe on my really fiesty days when I'm spoiling for a fight I might seek out one of my lefty friends and try to convince her she should disregard these odd occurrences of fascist behavior by the rare and errant capitalist, and accept the word "capitalism" for it's other uses.

Unfortunately, in direct opposition to my earlier assumptions about "capitalists," such fascist behavior is not a fluke. Not only is this type of activity legion among those thought of as capitalists, it has been legion since the evolution of long-distance trade.

A few examples:

"The Japanese have now seen that US business is in partnership with the US government, and they had better sit up and take notice." -Lee Iococca after Jan. 1992 trip to Japan with George Bush and other US Auto CEOs

"[U]nder the licensing provisions," says Rep. John Dingell, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, "we give the broadcasters an absolute federally supported and sustained monopoly which denies anybody else the right to broadcast who does not have a license." -"The 'Fairness Doctrine': Keep It Buried!" by Jorge Amador, THE PRAGMATIST, Feb. 1994, pg. 10

"Essentially airline regulation was an organized attempt to keep out competition." -Alfred Kahn, chairman and chief architect of the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB),

"The United States needs a new kind of capitalism as they already have in Germany, Canada, and Japan, where there is close cooperation between business and government." -John Chancellor commentary, CBS's Sunday TODAY, November 10, 1991

"Ross Perot wants to move into the twenty-first century and, like the European countries, have a partnership between business and government where government helps business compete." -Perot's designated surrogate on Good Morning America?, Friday October 30, 1992 [2]

The media officially dubs Japan "Japan Inc."

"Mr. Blair [now Britain's left-wing Labour Prime Minister] wants the new constitutional statement to acknowledge that Labour accepts the market economy but believes it should be run in partnership between government and industry, a central theme of his speech." -London Daily Telegraph, 5 Oct 94.

"Partnerships between business and labor need to be translated from local agreements into national policy." -Speech by Bill Clinton July 26, 1993 from CNN

It was reported today that the sale of a large number of jumbo jets to Saudi Arabia has become a contest between French and American aero-space companies. President Bill Clinton intervened in the negotiations on behalf of the American companies, McDonnell Douglas and Boeing. -CNN, 21 Aug. 1993

The Clinton administration announced a joint venture with auto makers to develop a more efficient gasoline engine. -CNN Sept. 29, 1993 ~14:32 EST

The Central Intelligence Agency is stepping up efforts to discover "who in foreign countries is bribing who else in order to get contracts that American companies are losing." according to James R. Woolsey, the CIA director. -International Herald Tribune, Hong Kong, Wed. Dec. 18, 1993, pg. 3

"With this nation's economic security so closely tied to our national security, all facets of government must actively protect the interest of U.S. industry. The Department of Justice is doing its part." -Attorney General Janet Reno, "Law Enforcement in Cyberspace" address, San Francisco, June 14, 1996

The Wall Street Journal reports today that the CIA was spying on Japanese negotiators and reporting daily to U.S. chief negotiatior Mickey Cantor during the U.S. - Japan auto trade negotiations earlier this year. -CNBC, 16 Oct 1995 ~ 9:15:03 AM

PHOENIX -- Twentieth Century Fox will launch an animation division by building a $100 million studio that will employ 300 people here. The state has committed $300,000 to train workers. -USA TODAY, Aug. 3, 1994, pg 6A

SIOUX FALLS [South Dakota] -- State officials pledged $1 million a year in annual debt reduction for the next 10 years to keep meatpacker John Morrell and Co. in Sioux Falls. -USA TODAY, NOVEMBER 11, 1994, pg 4A

Partisans who fought Italy's fascist regime during World War Two are protesting the government's plan to issue on Nov. 21 a stamp honoring fascist philosopher Giovanni Gentile. The stamp was ordered by the neo-fascist minister of post and communications, Giuseppe Tatarella. The neo-fascist-led National Alliance has five ministers in Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's cabinet. -USA TODAY/Ilternational Edition WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 12, 1994 pg 8A

"There is a coalition between old line Russian communists and industrialists. "Industrialists [i.e. the commisars who ran the state enterprises before] are real partners in the Russian Government now." -Yeltsin cabinet minister, McNeil Lehrer News Hour, November 30, 1992
+
'Up to and during the course of the fifteenth century the towns were the sole centers of commerce and industry to such an extent that none of it was allowed to escape into the open country' (Pirenne, _Economic and Social History_, p.169). 'The struggle against rural trading and against rural handicrafts lasted at least seven or eight hundred years' (Heckscher, _Mercantilism_, 1935, Vol. I, p. 129). 'The severity of these measures increased with the growth of 'democratic government' . . . . 'All through the fourteenth century regular armed expeditions were sent out against all the villages in the neighborhood and looms or fulling-vats [in which cloth was dyed] were broken or carried away.' (Pirenne, op.cit., p. 211)." -Karl Polanyi, The Great Transformation. (Boston: Beacon Press 1957), p. 277

The reason there are so many clips is that once I got the idea that "capitalists," regardless of what we would like to think of them, behave as the lefties say they do, seeking out partnerships with governments -- consider libertarian-mercantilist Adolph Coors, Jr. for example -- I couldn't believe it. It took me a long time (and a lot of clips) to get over the fact that if Hank Reardon, et.al. existed in the real world, they would be as scarce as proverbial "hen's teeth." [3]

Why?

If you, ET, had a choice of selling your services in a context where you had a monopoly and no competition vs. a free market context where there was a lot of competition, which would you choose? Which situation would allow you to pay the biggest dividends and highest salaries to your employees? If you went to a bank for funding, which situation would be more likely to get you your loan?

Once you caught on to this advantage of monopolies, would you go out and look for some? Would you, perhaps, try to create your own? And once you learned that a good way to get one is to hire government minions to keep out the "sin" of competition, would you go into partnership with governments? In your case, I don't think so -- and that's a compliment of sorts, but once government is helping your competitor, if you don't, economically you're swimming up stream. I think Flinter's post pretty much shows a likely result of such "swimming up stream" in agri-business.

See, "capitalists" -- even jaycees -- don't like free trade in free markets. I know -- this is seriously perverse, but if you can think about it clearly, you know it's true. More particularly, everyone -- and particularly "capitalists" -- want to buy in free markets -- because competition keeps their costs down -- but sell into protected markets - - because lack of competiton allows them to increase their prices. You'd have to be a crazy capitalist not to consider this. It becomes part of the "fiduciary responsibility."

This is why, once government enters the picture and is available for hire, capitalists nearly always, given the chance, must act as mercantilist/fascists. [4]

You now have both the real-world evidence and the logic behind it. You can't separate "capitalism" -- except in theory -- from how "capitalists" must behave if they can, particularly in the modern world. That's why I say that the word capitalism (in the C. definition above) always (O.K., nearly always) is associated with mercantilism/fascism, and why, in that sense, I'm an anti-capitalist. And in this sense of the word, I think you are too, ET.

Now the real value of touting free trade in free markets is that demonstrably and on its face, mercantilism/fascism simply cannot coexist with free trade in free markets. That's because the whole raison d'etre, particularly of mercantilism, is to control markets. Capitalism, on the other hand, even in the sense of "private ownership of the means of production," can and does coexist quite well with mercantilism. Regularly.

And once again, maybe you could explain what you mean here. How is capital the result of trade? -ET

You might have me here. That depends on what your definition of "capital" includes. What does it include?? This could be an interesting path to discussion --

The saving and investing of capital is the key to understanding free markets. Little trade will happen until somebody decides to trade some of their accumulated capital for something else. That's all there is to it. What other parts do you think I'm leaving out of the picture? -ET

Can you indulge in (free) trade without "capital?" What do you do with your accumulated capital if you don't trade it? Which is more important, capital or trade? If the answer is both, then why call it "capitalism" in preference to calling it "free-trade?"

Let me get this straight, you are saying that because we have explained what capitalism is to folks, this has allowed "enemies" to subvert markets. If we had only used the term "free market" rather than capitalism, those same markets wouldn't today be subverted. Are you kidding? -ET

I'm not kidding. I just suggested we would have had much better success than we've had if we'd spent our scarce time and energy touting free markets -- which are clearly incompatible with mercantalism/fascism -- rather than defending "capitalism" which clearly isn't. That tactic is much more efficient. Try it a time or two, particularly on "lefties" and see what happens.

Here's a general strategy from one of my earlier posts:

The next time you run up against a "capitalism hater," use some jujitsu. Use your opponent's "momentum" against hir. Agree that "capitalism" is bad. Equate it with mercantilism/fascism. Then point out on the other hand how saving and "investing" are good for "society" and free trade makes it all possible.

Once you get the hang of touting "free-markets," (keeping in mind you'll get more static from business persons than from lefties with this approach) you'll find it works much quicker -- you won't have to be on the defensive much. You can spend your time "educating" and attacking rather than defending. Remember this from an earlier post:

Mr. Berry is absolutely correct when he identifies the problems associated with international capitalism: Unnatural concentration of wealth, unchecked degradation of the environment, etc. which is, as he ironically admits, "ratified and licensed by the new international trade agreements." Clearly these "international trade agreements" must have been "ratified and licensed" by governments. Mr. Berry, obviously ignorant of the one-to-one correspondence between international capitalism and it's direct predecessor and memetic sire, "mercantilism," (and thus ignorant of the built-in connection between business and government) suggests more of the same -- government interference in free markets -- as a solution.

I know this goes against the grain, ET, but keeping in mind which definition of "capitalism" you're referring to -- and that all forms of capitalism are at least compatible with mercantilism [5] -- might help. This should markedly increase your effectiveness. And after all, you indirectly told me you're not having much luck with lefties (the "approximately half the population" in question [6]) when you posted:

Thanks! And good luck in your quest to convince lefties of anything reasonable. -ET

And there's a bonus -- lefties, motivated by their "hearts," are much more likely to do things -- you know, make noise, demonstrate, etc. -- than are conservatives. We're going to need a lot of noise if we hope to escape a more full blown fascist/mercantilist police state than we already have. At base, we're losing, I think, largely because of a semantic deficit.

Thanks for the intellectual work-out, ET!

High regards,
journeyman

NOTES:

[1] Perhaps I harbor old preconceptions, but I still find most people have, at best, neutral reactions to the word "capitalism" and more usually fairly strong reactions against it. Is it just that I have too much grey hair?? return

[2] Clearly Mr. Chancellor and Perot's surrogate aren't really asking for anything new. They're asking for more of the same old "capitalism" and more of that same "partnership between business and government" practiced from time immemorial. Where do you think the Federal Reserve came from for example? return

[3] I'm finding native cultures extremely interesting these days, and while I can't nail it yet, I'm finding this particular observation irresistably provocative:

Big-heartedness, generosity, courage, and self-denial are the qualifications of a public servant, and the average Indian was keen to follow this ideal. As every one knows, these characteristic traits become a weakness when he enters a life founded upon commerce and gain. ... Such characters as those of Crazy Horse and Chief Joseph are not easily found among so-called civilized people. -Compiled by: Glenn Welker, Crazy Horse/Tashunkewitko, Oglala, Last Updated: April 6, 1999 return

[4] This is hazardous in it's own right of course because as the saying goes, "When you go to bed with government, you get more than a good night's sleep." return

[5] 1 : the theory or practice of mercantile pursuits : COMMERCIALISM. This definition shows the direct connection between mercantilism and business, and presumably, since capitalists are usually considered business people, the connection of mercantilism to capitalists. return

[6] "The folks that feel this negative way, last I saw statistics, comprise approximately half the population." -j. return

P.S. ET, The easiest way to watch bandwidth grow -- SLATT, 21:28:16 11/30/03 Sun Is to tell j-man he is wrong about anything. Absolutely right - - - unless you can back it up. This is how the dialectic happens, and we all improve our maps and performance.

P.P.S. Flinter, I don't think we disagree about anything but the necessity of sticking to a particular word. Using alternative words or alternative definitions for the same phenomenon isn't necessarily lying -- unless your a politician or mega-agri-capitalist ;>

[Edit]

silver flying -- number six, 09:44:34 12/01/03 Mon

I new I had to watch the markets today. Silver making a move, plus gold looking strong over $400 for awhile.

Qwerty, you were asking about what stocks to buy.... my 2 more cents... durban itself has as much leverage as you could want... If you were to buy durban options in Johannesburg, (which may or may not still exist,) you would have to fanciest jalopy on the gold block, but parts and maintainance would be a bitch, pardon my french. If gold goes ballistic like us guys think, Drooy stock still has a 3 stage rocket booster. And it's easier to operate than ringing up Seth Efrica in the middle of the night when something doesn't work. Maybe a full service broker could do the work for you, but who wants to pay their rates.

Other stocks, - I don't like apll as much as volavka, but I could see them as cheap @ .75 by 2004. Moves well with gold lately, but there's plenty of guys like me who are content to walk away from it with a big win. Please allow me to skyte for a moment about apll, because trades just never go this good for me. I bought at .088, sold a third at .13 ish and got 1/2 my money back. Sold another third in the mid .20's sold the last third at .35. Bought 2/3's back at .29 and sold them at .45 3 days later. I can't do the maths, but I'm walking away happy. :) I hope it keeps going up for you guys who hold it.

I've doubled up on imxpf.ob imr.v . This may or may not be a dumb idea but if you buy & it goes down, you know I'm sinking there too. :) I can't recommend any other stock higher, because it's the one I'm seriously overweight in. It has leverage naturally because it's an explorer (silver,) but it looks such a good thing if they find any small-to-resonable amount of mineralisation, given the grades that are sticking oot the groond. They've taken chip samples there of 6% silver i.e. 60kilos silver a ton. (None of this 6 ounce/ton crap which usually passes for a great grade!) These samples were taken from extensive surface-exposed vein systems, who's average grade is roughly 162 oz/ton, plus strong copper & lead. There are other different styles of mineralisation which extend for large surface areas, and which have lower but still geat grades. There's a 6 km rige of hills and dips which all show major major signs of silver mineralisation in soils and or geophysically. The central geophysical anomaly is frightening in apparent size. Pretty much all of the exploration science clues get either 9 out of 10, 10 out of 10, or 11 out of 10 from me. The clues cross-corroborate each other, to the point where a picture of the truth builds up and I have to convict.

First drill results come out within weeks - it's a fine stock to put some easy-come-easy go money on... it must be (to my mind) or else I wouldn't bet nearly all my serious money on it! And they must be a great chance of at least finding a half-decent mine, because they look like as good a chance as any out there, of finding a truly historic deposit.

So how can I recommend any other if I think all that. I do have the ocassional flight of fancy, so caveat lector.

[Edit]

Big blocks -- volavka, 08:07:24 12/01/03 Mon

coming into select au/ag shares.

Big doors are held by little hinges.
mkt float in metals tiny, when flow starts it will explode.

[Edit]

Think positive think 650.00 to begin -- volavka, 07:26:33 12/01/03 Mon

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
Shaw.

[Edit]

Current POG, POS, POP & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 04:19:09 12/01/03 Mon

[Edit]

@J-man -- Flinter, 03:25:49 12/01/03 Mon

As someone who has watched (from inside) a great industry (agriculture), taken over by those "business" with easy access to credit, The Greespan quote rings hollow. It offers me little comfort.

The productive enterprise ((those conservatively managed, those innovative at production, those accumulating capital by producing (which was termed "poor management of the balance sheet" or "old fashioned fiscal vision") AND which treated their employees with respect) ...those types of business were bought out, broken up, striped clean, sucked dry...and eliminated.

Along with them went the people who made it possible and a lifestyle that produced such people.

We ended up with a very small handfull of huge "business" (all with political connections) and an old boy network of "cooperation"...and...always this mysterious access to unlimited easy credit. Need a law changed...buy it. Need a better image...buy it. Always with Credit (the anti-capital).

The Greespan quote greatly understates the issue...ignoring the ethical destruction among other things.

Here are a some of Rand's quotes that don't.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying gold money, for it is man's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced."

And...

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming fodder for the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded."

And...

"Throughout man's history gold was always seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose methods remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor."

And...

"When gold ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men."

So, here we are with an America in which few people are producers, and therefore little is produced...and which has turned to the gun.

Excuse this bit of sarcasm, I know I am overstating the issue and that I am nit picking (in extreme) on your comments. This issue, thought, NEEDS to be understood. Fiat poisons Free Markets and it does so by striking directly at it's ethical foundation.

And...please don't roll your eyes and say "isn't that quaint", a Rand throw back. I've witnessed it. It's real. Perhaps you missed it as a professional gambler, but I did not from rural America.

The Stench on Wall Street, and from Washington D.C. to Hollywood...have a common sustenance.

And as far as "softening up" language so it is more "digestible"; more Rand...

"The man who lies to the world is the world's slave from then on. Instead of protecting you, the lie will bring you a more terrible kind of ordeal. Instead of saving your name, it will force you to offer yourself for a public stoning, and to throw the stones by your own hand. There are no white lies, there is only the blackness of destruction, and a white lie is the blackest of all."

What would it do to certain liturature, for instance, if the word "Egalitarian" met a similar fate as "Capitalism"? Would that liturature pass it's (real) message over time?

I know I am being unfair to you J-man, we share so much. But these are a couple of important issues to me.

High Regards,
Flinter

[Edit]

Food for thought -- Ergo, 22:53:32 11/30/03 Sun

Re: 21:28:16. and judging by what's just floated to the surface I'd say the gene pool needs a little chlorine.

[Edit]

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU -- $hifty, 22:47:40 11/30/03 Sun

Ponzi Chart

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU

Nasdaq 1,960.26 + Dow 9,782.46 = 11,742.72 divide by 2 = 5,871.36 Ponzi

Up 110.16 from last week.

Thanks for the link RossL !

Go GATA !

Go GOLD !

$hifty

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Ivanhoe Mining district old photo -- Questioner, 21:28:53 11/30/03 Sun

http://nvghosttowns.topcities.com/elko/ivanhoe.htm

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ET, The easiest way to watch bandwidth grow -- SLATT, 21:28:16 11/30/03 Sun

Is to tell j-man he is wrong about anything.

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OmarD @ 04:59:04 11/30/03 Sun and OmarD @ 05:33:14 11/30/03 Sun -- HBM, 21:22:36 11/30/03 Sun

OmarD, from your posts

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0311-2154

…“Since they are a fitnah (tribulation) and are harmful to the Muslims, and they are the brothers of Satan."…

OmarD

HBM question for OmarD

To whom do your scholars refer by “the brothers of Satan” in the above quote?

OmarD, Your PS:

PS: @HBM...Yes, we have been down this road before (about "books")..."Biggest Mistake" - you are still making, is "blind love, support" for a nation (not a religion) that has, through decades, thru its actions, justly deserves the acrimony, "hate," and desire for its "demise" by all just, moral and "aware" civilized people and nations...and also, continuing not to wake up to fact that Muslims also are "followers" of Christ. - Your "cookie" jar is much more "crowded" then you think.

HBM Comments:

Anyone reading my posts should understand that, though my love for my nation is deep and strong, my great disdain for the government (not the land or the constitution) is not in question. Are you meaning by your post that you are among those who desire the demise of the United States of America?

Concerning the cookie jar: You will not find anywhere in my post that I felt that the cookie jar was not much occupied. My point was not that hard to ascertain – the cookie jar has been infiltrated by many myriads of non-cookies some of whom are impersonating cookies and others who really think they are cookies though they are not. In our case, Muslim vs. Christian, I am certain that we are not even in the same cookie jar. I was talking about those who pretend to be Christian taking up residence in the cookie jar. I have never known a Christian who claims to be a Muslim, nor a Muslim who claims to be a Christian. If you are claiming to believe in Jesus Christ as the God and Saviour of the world, you are the first Muslim in my experience to do so. True Christian doctrine puts forth that Jesus Christ Is God, Was God and always will be God. Call Him a liar if you will but do not also make the claim that you are a follower this God of the Christians.

HBM

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Nevada gold property- GBN -- Questioner, 21:06:49 11/30/03 Sun

Spent some time driving across Northeast Nevada and thoughts come and go. Here is one I would like to follow up on. Last spring I went out exploring from Tuscarora to Midas which is on the northern part of the Carlin trend. Their is a resturant for sale in Midas if you want to get into that business which is kind of 50 miles north of Battle Mountain. The Ken Snyder mine is located near Midas and they have pulled out incredible ounces per ton from that. It use to be Euro-nevada and then bought by Normandy which is now Newmont. On that same trend that Barrick has the Betze pit and Newmont the Gold Quarry pit.

Anyway to my point. I have thought about investing in Ivanhoe which has the Mongoloia/China and the other one that volavka has mentioned(magr sp?. That is one very remote place. Odds seem thin on that.Talked to a friend of mine that has actually travelled to that part of the world and I just don't see that happening with the infrastructure there.

But my gut has been telling me their is something very right about Ivanhoe. If you are into speculation I think the most prudent place would be the mining properties of the Ivanhoe district on the Carlin trend. This is smack dabb in the middle that runs from Ken Snyder to Betze and Gold Quarry.

Anybody know much about this Great Basin Gold, GBN?
I have been big on Nevada Pacific Gold but need to do some more homework on this one. Of course do your own due diligence.

Walk in Balance,
Questioner

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j-man -- ET, 15:30:21 11/30/03 Sun

Hey j-man, thanks for your thoughts. You wrote in part:

“The problem here isn't the process of saving and investing [1], 'capital,' it's the problem of using the word 'capitalism' in communicating the good that process produces and thus why it shouldn't be interfered with.”

No, j-man. The problem has been your claim that capitalism and mercantilism are one and the same and always have been. That is precisely what you stated in your previous posts. So are you now conceding that I have been right all along that capitalism and mercantilism are indeed quite different?

”The folks that feel this negative way, last I saw statistics, comprise approximately half the population.”

Here is another of your wild assertions apparently trying to convince me that no matter what is said to the average guy, he can’t possibly comprehend a simple definition. Perhaps you could come up with some sort of verification of this latest claim.

“Capital formation is only a part of the free-trade in free-market process and is largely the result, not the cause of trade.”

And once again, maybe you could explain what you mean here. How is capital the result of trade?

“Yet above, you suggested that 'The 'capital' part of capitalism is the key to understanding free markets.' The reason you may believe that's the case is that you have chosen to use the word 'capitalism' as the icon and standard bearer for the much more broad and important 'free-market' process. As a result, you focus on the 'capital' part and subliminally believe 'capital accumulation' or some-such is the most important aspect and 'key to understanding free markets.' This simply isn't the case.”

Just ridiculous assumptions on your part in trying to bolster your weak argument, my friend. What I might think is irrelevant. Instead, perhaps you could explain how capital is not the key to understanding capitalism, if that is what you think.

”By choosing that one part, and a subpart at that, of a complex process as the standard bearer for a process which requires all parts to function, you have elevated that one part to a position of prominence it doesn't deserve. This is what I have in mind when I say ‘glorifies money and the people that have it rather than what people do to get it.’”

The saving and investing of capital is the key to understanding free markets. Little trade will happen until somebody decides to trade some of their accumulated capital for something else. That’s all there is to it. What other parts do you think I’m leaving out of the picture?

(snip Rand rant)

“Indeed, folks tend to take 'free markets' for granted -- which is quite telling, since the only free markets that exist today are so-called 'black markets.' The fact that we defenders of free trade in free markets have usually chosen to defend 'capitalism' rather than free trade has helped enabled our 'enemies' to clandestinely subvert markets to the degree that 'Most everybody [you] know' mis takes our current-day extremely restricted, controlled and manipulated markets 'for granted' as "'markets!'”

Let me get this straight, you are saying that because we have explained what capitalism is to folks, this has allowed “enemies” to subvert markets. If we had only used the term “free market” rather than capitalism, those same markets wouldn’t today be subverted. Are you kidding?

(snip more off topic stuff)

”So ET, such an effective and motivated communicator as yourself might consider trying a new tactic -- just once or twice as an experiment. The next time you run up against a 'capitalism hater,' use some jujitsu. Use your opponent's 'momentum' against him. Agree that 'capitalism' is bad. Equate it with mercantilism/fascism. Then point out on the other hand how saving and 'investing' are good for 'society' and free trade makes it all possible.”

I don’t have to admit capitalism is bad. It isn’t. Your inability to communicate that simple fact would seem to be the problem, not my usage of the term.

“The only thing you didn't convince me to do was to use and defend the word and concept of 'capitalism' as it's commonly understood by "the masses" in preference to defending 'free trade in free markets.'"

Wrongo! For the first time you haven’t tried to convince us that capitalism and mercantilism are indeed the same thing. I’m going to consider that a victory for reasoned argument rather than the tactics you advocate.

”I most certainly wish you the best of luck in the future -- we're both most definitely on the same team afterall.”

Thanks! And good luck in your quest to convince lefties of anything reasonable.

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Dorthy it's a twister -- volavka, 06:34:36 11/30/03 Sun

better put these on and hit the yellow brick road.

http://www.naturesmistakes.com/Shoes/Images/s109a.jpg

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PS: @HBM, et. al. -- OmarD, 05:33:14 11/30/03 Sun

"...As the U.S. Congress has sought advice from a range of special interest groups in its recent hearings on Saudi Arabia, it should remember that the enemy of its enemy is not always its friend; likewise, as the U.S. pursues its quixotic war against Islamic fundamentalism, it should remember that sometimes your assumed enemy is really your friend..."

Please take time to read:

Islamic scholars: America's natural allies (iviews.com)

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0311-2154

"...rather than engaging these scholars and the Islamic charities that disseminate their message, some in the West have included them in an overly broad and ill-defined war on terrorism..."

"...The U.S. government must therefore adopt a more nuanced approach to the Muslim world that recognizes the distinction between fundamentalism and extremism. It must also recognize that battles for self-determination in places such as Chechnya are not equivalent to wanton attacks on innocents such as 9/11; that those who argue for justice for the Palestinians do not by necessity argue for the destruction of the Western world; and that charities whose work in war-torn environments forces them into contact with the warring parties do not necessarily subscribe to their ideals and objectives..."

Hopefully some "insight here" - "Insha'allah"

OmarD

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Au/Ag "Action" over weekend... -- OmarD, 04:59:04 11/30/03 Sun

Indian gold soars in wedding frenzy

Saturday 29 November 2003 8:08 PM GMT - Aljazeera

About 14,000 wedding bells rang in Delhi on Thursday

Tens of thousands of Hindu marriages held this week to coincide with the decade's most auspicious celestial event have sent gold prices to record highs.

According to bullion traders, gold, which jumped 35 rupees to 5,970 rupees ($129.78) for 10 grams on Thursday, when 14,000 wedding bells rang in Delhi, rose again to the year's highest of 6025 rupees on Saturday as the marriage season climaxed.

The precious metal in Mumbai, India's business hub, broke previous records to zoom up by 55 rupees and closed at an all-time high of 6040 rupees as the bullion market closed the week on Saturday.

"The bulls are active in the retail market because of the marriage season," a bullion market trader said. The date of 27 November was considered the holiest spot in the monthly Hindu calendar for matrimonial unions, prompting parents marrying off their daughters to arrange their wedding parties within the holy period.

Celestial wedlock

Astrologers say the convergence of Jupiter and Venus in the house of Sun with the Moon aligned favourably was a unique celestial boon for Hindu wedlock and is a phenomenon that occurs in a 12-year cycle.

A Hindu bridegroom arrives on
horseback at his wedding

The southern Indian city of Chennai (formerly Madras) too was touched by planetary blessings and frenzied local marriages kicked up gold prices Saturday by 20 rupees to 6000 rupees, other traders said.

Silver, used in auspicious Hindu rituals such as weddings and funerals, also staged a smart rally in New Delhi, Bombay and Madras on the back of the marriage boom, traders reported.

Delhi city officials estimate at least 27,000 nuptials occurred in the week that ended Saturday, predicting a weekend of thousands of post-wedding receptions and cocktails across the city of star-crossed couples.

AFP
By

You can find this article at:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7F251603-8F20-462B-9C7A-46987413F4A1.htm

Wa Salaam,

OmarD

PS: @HTM...Yes, we have been down this road before (about "books")..."Biggest Mistake" - you are still making, is "blind love, support" for a nation (not a religion) that has, through decades, thru its actions, justly deserves the acrimony, "hate," and desire for its "demise" by all just, moral and "aware" civilized people and nations...and also, continuing not to wake up to fact that Muslims also are "followers" of Christ. - Your "cookie" jar is much more "crowded" then you think.

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Rumsfeld Slams Arab Media; Will Bombs Follow? -- www.iraqwar.ru, 00:42:52 11/30/03 Sun

Rum 'n smoke?

Fair use snippet:

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s ruminations on the bias of Arab media would be risible if it wasn’t so tragic. We should recall that Rumsfeld’s commitment to free speech was on clear display during both the War in Afghanistan and the War in Iraq when he ordered the bombing of Al jazeera’s facilities in both countries. This is how the grandfatherly Rummy chooses to enlighten the savages of the third world about the wondrous nature of the free press.

Actually, Rumsfeld might be considered an expert on the topic of bias. He was the architect of the enormously unpopular Dept of Strategic Influence, an office entirely devoted to putting American operatives in the foreign news services to spread the “good news” about US foreign policy. We can only assume that the reason he did not suggest a similar program domestically, is that it already exists, and effectively quashes any dissenting viewpoint.
We may also recall that it was Rumsfeld’s Office of Special Plans at the Pentagon that manufactured every bit of fabricated intelligence leading up to the war with Iraq. This phony information was later adroitly blamed on the CIA, the convenient fall guy for the slippery Rummy.

Then there was the marvelous coup that the Dept of Defense devised with the aid of the mainstream media, to embed journalists in the war so they could photograph the fireworks of modern technology but never film the consequences. Apparently, Rummy doesn’t like the idea of dead soldiers or dead civilians appearing on network TV, it tends to undermine the requisite support for the war machine.

Rumsfeld’s grip is so far reaching, that he has even forbidden the filming of flag-draped caskets returning to Dover Air Force Base, an edict that dramatizes the feckless nature of the press corps as well as the extent of Rumsfeld’s control.

So, how should we regard Rumsfeld’s disparaging remarks of “bias in the Arab media”? Could they be the rationale for another attack on Al jazeera?
Who knows? After all, we’re not dealing with someone who is constrained by any conventional sense of morality. Rumsfeld has proved time and again that he will stop at nothing to control the narrative of American adventurism, and Arab media poses the last real obstacle to his information monopoly.

I’m sure there are a few “sweaty palms” in Doha tonight.

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Fellow travelers! @Flinter -- journeyman, 17:38:03 11/29/03 Sat

Hi Flinter!

Your suggestion that there is no such thing as a free market when there is a fiat currency has illustrious supporters - - -

Ron Paul: "Is it not true that in a free market with sound money you never welcome a down-turn in the economy, you never welcome the idea of decreased growth and you don't concern yourself about this? And yet here we talk about, 'When is the Fed going to intervene and turn down the economy,' ... Couldn't we make a case that the free market would operate a lot better than the market that we use today?"

Alan Greenspan: "Well, I think you have to define what you mean by a free market, If you have a fiat currency, which is what everyone has in the world ---

Paul: "That's not a free market."

Greenspan: "That is not a free market. Central banks of necessity determine what the money supply is. If you're on a gold standard or other mechanism in which the central banks do not have discretion, then the system works automatically. "-Humphrey-Hawkins Testimony to US House, July 22, 1998

Regards,
Journeyman

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Silver Stocks--Comparative Valuations Weekly Report #11 -- Netking, 17:18:12 11/29/03 Sat

http://www.minersmanual.com/silverarticle.php?SA_ID=99

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@Journeyman & @ ET -- Flinter, 15:38:17 11/29/03 Sat

It's been very educational, you two. I have the feeling that you both argued over-top of my main point...that no free market OR Capitalism exists in a fiat money economy.

It's OK, safer in the trenches anyhow. But that point, which I beieive correct...kind of takes the air out of both your arguments.

Pehaps you disagree, or perhaps you don't think it relevant, or perhaps you just don't care...your option, of course. It is....JMHO, nothing more.

Rand's section in A/S which (has been called) the "Ode to Money" describes it as well as any I've read.

Thank You, both.
Flinter

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ron paul on conscription -- qwerty, 15:11:54 11/29/03 Sat

Ron Paul must have been upset that the Republicans are redrawing his district or just as likely, he is going along with it behind the scenes

he says a lot of good things

but then he says

---
But in the short run the draft may well turn out to be more deadly and degrading, as one is forced to commit life and limb to a less than worthy cause – like teaching democracy to unwilling and angry Arabs.
---

he really thinks "teaching democracy" is the "worthy cause" of why they will be there ... oh, puke

and then he says

---
It was encouraged by war profiteering, a desire to control natural resources (oil), and a Neo-con agenda of American hegemony with the goal of redrawing the borders of the countries of the Middle East.
---

more contradictions from paul

except for that, a well written piece

without funding, they can not carry out any of this

will ron paul ever stop voting to fund the totalitarian machine and talking in contradictions

===

The Crime of Conscription

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

The ultimate cost of war is almost always the loss of liberty. True defensive wars and revolutionary wars against tyrants may preserve or establish a free society, as did our war against the British. But these wars are rare. Most wars are unnecessary, dangerous, and cause senseless suffering with little being gained. The result of most conflicts throughout the ages has been loss of liberty and life on both sides. The current war in which we find ourselves clearly qualifies as one of those unnecessary and dangerous wars. To get the people to support ill-conceived wars, the nation’s leaders employ grand schemes of deception.

Woodrow Wilson orchestrated our entry into World War I by first promising during the election of 1916 to keep us out of the European conflict, then a few months later pressuring and maneuvering Congress into declaring war against Germany. Whether it was the Spanish American War before that or all the wars since, U.S. presidents have deceived the people to gain popular support for ill-conceived military ventures. Wilson wanted the war and immediately demanded conscription to fight it. He didn’t have the guts even to name the program a military draft; instead in a speech before Congress calling for war he advised the army should be “chosen upon the principle of universal liability to service.” Most Americans at the time of the declaration didn’t believe actual combat troops would be sent. What a dramatic change from this early perception, when the people endorsed the war, to the carnage that followed – and the later disillusionment with Wilson and his grand scheme for world government under the League of Nations. The American people rejected this gross new entanglement, a reflection of a somewhat healthier age than the one we find ourselves in today.

But when it comes to war, the principle of deception lives on. The plan for “universal liability to serve” once again is raising its ugly head. The dollar cost of the current war is already staggering, yet plans are being made to drastically expand the human cost by forcing conscription on the young men (and maybe women) who have no ax to grind with the Iraqi people and want no part of this fight.

Hundreds of Americans have already been killed, and thousands more wounded and crippled, while thousands of others will experience new and deadly war-related illnesses not yet identified.

We were told we had to support this pre-emptive war against Iraq because Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction (and to confront al Qaeda). It was said our national security depended on it. But all these dangers were found not to exist in Iraq. It was implied that lack of support for this Iraqi invasion was un-American and unpatriotic.

Since the original reasons for the war never existed, it is now claimed that we’re there to make Iraq a western-style democracy and to spread western values. And besides, it’s argued, it’s nice that Saddam Hussein has been removed from power. But does the mere existence of evil somewhere in the world justify preemptive war at the expense of the American people? Utopian dreams, fulfilled by autocratic means, hardly qualify as being morally justifiable.

These after-the-fact excuses for invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation direct attention away from the charge that the military industrial complex encouraged this war. It was encouraged by war profiteering, a desire to control natural resources (oil), and a Neo-con agenda of American hegemony with the goal of redrawing the borders of the countries of the Middle East.

The inevitable failure of such a seriously flawed foreign policy cannot be contemplated by those who have put so much energy into this occupation. The current quagmire prompts calls from many for escalation, with more troops being sent to Iraq. Many of our reservists and National Guardsmen cannot wait to get out and have no plans to re-enlist. The odds are that our policy of foreign intervention, which has been with us for many decades, is not likely to soon change. The dilemma of how to win an un-winnable war is the issue begging for an answer.

To get more troops, the draft will likely be reinstated. The implicit prohibition of “involuntary servitude” under the 13th Amendment to the Constitution has already been ignored many times so few will challenge the constitutionality of the coming draft.

Unpopular wars invite conscription. Volunteers disappear, as well they should. A truly defensive just war prompts popular support. A conscripted, unhappy soldier is better off on the long run than the slaves of old since the “enslavement” is only temporary. But in the short run the draft may well turn out to be more deadly and degrading, as one is forced to commit life and limb to a less than worthy cause – like teaching democracy to unwilling and angry Arabs. Slaves were safer in that their owners had an economic interest in protecting their lives. Endangering the lives of our soldiers is acceptable policy, and that’s why they are needed. Too often, though, our men and women who are exposed to the hostilities of war and welcomed initially are easily forgotten after the fighting ends. Soon afterward, the injured and the sick are ignored and forgotten.

It is said we go about the world waging war to promote peace, and yet the price paid is rarely weighed against the failed efforts to make the world a better place. Justifying conscription to promote the cause of liberty is one of the most bizarre notions ever conceived by man! Forced servitude, with the risk of death and serious injury as a price to live free, makes no sense. What right does anyone have to sacrifice the lives of others for some cause of questionable value? Even if well motivated it can’t justify using force on uninterested persons.

It’s said that the 18-year-old owes it to his country. Hogwash! It just as easily could be argued that a 50 year-old chicken-hawk, who promotes war and places the danger on innocent young people, owes a heck of a lot more to the country than the 18-year-old being denied his liberty for a cause that has no justification.

All drafts are unfair. All 18- and 19-year-olds are never drafted. By its very nature a draft must be discriminatory. All drafts hit the most vulnerable young people, as the elites learn quickly how to avoid the risks of combat.

The dollar cost of war and the economic hardship is great in all wars and cannot be minimized. War is never economically beneficial except for those in position to profit from war expenditures. The great tragedy of war is the careless disregard for civil liberties of our own people. Abuses of German and Japanese Americans in World War I and World War II are well known.

But the real sacrifice comes with conscription – forcing a small number of young vulnerable citizens to fight the wars that older men and women, who seek glory in military victory without themselves being exposed to danger, promote. These are wars with neither purpose nor moral justification, and too often not even declared by the Congress.

Without conscription, unpopular wars are much more difficult to fight. Once the draft was undermined in the 1960s and early 1970s, the Vietnam War came to an end. But most importantly, liberty cannot be preserved by tyranny. A free society must always resort to volunteers. Tyrants thinks nothing of forcing men to fight and serve in wrongheaded wars; a true fight for survival and defense of America would elicit, I’m sure, the assistance of every able-bodied man and woman. This is not the case for wars of mischief far away from home in which we so often have found ourselves in the past century.

One of the worst votes that an elected official could ever cast would be to institute a military draft to fight an illegal war, if that individual himself maneuvered to avoid military service. But avoiding the draft on principle qualifies oneself to work hard to avoid all unnecessary war and oppose the draft for all others.

A government that is willing to enslave a portion of its people to fight an unjust war can never be trusted to protect the liberties of its own citizens. The ends can never justify the means, no matter what the Neo-cons say.

November 26, 2003

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

===

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The ability to know how Others think - journeyman, ET -- jomama, 07:51:44 11/29/03 Sat

" The only thing you didn't convince me to do was to use and defend the word and concept of 'capitalism' as it's commonly understood by 'the masses' [my emphasis] in preference to defending 'free trade in free markets.' "

Nicely done, buddy.

Some fine concept surgery here.

[Edit]

HBM -- SLATT, 07:19:49 11/29/03 Sat

Yes that was the post to which my response was directed. I now see your post was more of the gloom and doom variety than I thought. I mistakenly interpreted your use of the term "nuclear option" a reference to the peaceful application of nuclear energy!

"Now, what do the Islamic nations desire more than even their oil? Who would argue that it would not be the annihilation of Israel? I expect that the nations of Islam would accept this deal in a heartbeat. I also expect that Russia, along with the five above-mentioned independent republics of central Asia would agree to such a plan upon the condition that they participate in the spoils of such a war."

I do not know how the mess in the MidEast will shake out. I will offer a different scenario using the players you have mentioned. I do not view the Islamic nations as you do. There is the government and there is the people. Both differ in their priorities. Governments want power and leverage with other governments. The people want the opportunity to raise their families in peace and prosperity and freedom which may well differ considerably from our expectations.

Arab nations use the plight of the Palestinians to deflect their peoples attention from their own sad plight. From the wealth siphoned for the benefit of the ruling few. The last thing Arab governments want is the end of the Israeli state. To do so would turn their peoples attention towards their sorry plight, demanding change for the better.

I doubt the US will abandon Israel since the Israeli lobby in DC is stronger than the senior citizen lobby. However the US must insist that Israel negotiate for peace with the Palestinians in good faith. US economic and military aid to Israel is the major hindrance towards Israel negotiating in good faith. Indeed the Israelis already possess a nuclear deterrent and the means to deliver it throughout the Arab world. That is the sole cause of the nuclear arms race in the Persian Gulf region. A nuclear war in the MidEast would cease oil and nat. gas production, benefitting the Russian republic and other oil producers in the short term.

Either way the US has the opportunity and incentive to free itself of MidEast oil at a minimum and achieve independence from foreign oil as the ideal. Both would serve to bring about the necessary changes to make our economy and republic stronger and more honest in interpreting the US Constitution.

I see a future US not beholden to Mideast oil and foreign oil as necessary to achieve the next American renaissance. Positive thinking and timely action pay dividends IMHO.

[Edit]

How to convert lefties to free-markets in less than 5 minutes @ET, Flinter, ALL -- journeyman, 06:45:29 11/29/03 Sat

Hi ET, ALL,

Guess you're all developing mental calluses from this capitalism vs. free markets thing. So I promise, this is my last post on the subject, hopefully forever, but definitely for at least several months.

I can just hear all the sighs of relief, particularly from ET;>

Well that's fine then, j-man, you understand the importance of capital. Believe it or not, you've concisely described the entire process. The 'capital' part of capitalism is the key to understanding free markets. -ET

The problem here isn't the process of saving and investing [1], "capital," it's the problem of using the word "capitalism" in communicating the good that process produces and thus why it shouldn't be interfered with.

I'm going to argue that not only is "capitalism" not a good P.R. choice, it's not the best or even a good representation of the much broader free market process. And it's that much broader free-market process, not just the saving-investing part of it which we must defend. The question is whether or not to use the term "capitalism" as the stand-in, the "icon," the standard-bearer to represent the whole free-trade-in-free-market process which is larger and more important than just the saving-gambling part of that process.

Historically and unfortunately, the word "capitalism," has indeed been used as the icon and standard bearer for the free-market process, and has accumulated major semantic liabilities. If you don't believe the word "captialism" has negative baggage, go find a "liberal" -- or someone who lost their 401K in the latest market crash, someone invested in Enron, Worldcom, etc. -- and defend "capitalism" to them.

The folks that feel this negative way, last I saw statistics, comprise approximately half the population. Is it sound tactics to choose a term with negative connotations for half of the folks you need to convince if there's a reasonable alternative?

Frankly, j-man, I was not aware that the term "capitalism" glorifies money and people that have it rather than what people do to get it. -ET

Capital formation is only a part of the free-trade in free-market process and is largely the result, not the cause of trade. Yet above, you suggested that "The 'capital' part of capitalism is the key to understanding free markets." The reason you may believe that's the case is that you have chosen to use the word "capitalism" as the icon and standard bearer for the much more broad and important "free-market" process. As a result, you focus on the "capital" part and subliminally believe "capital accumulation" or some-such is the most important aspect and "key to understanding free markets." This simply isn't the case.

By choosing that one part, and a subpart at that, of a complex process as the standard bearer for a process which requires all parts to function, you have elevated that one part to a position of prominence it doesn't deserve. This is what I have in mind when I say "glorifies money and the people that have it rather than what people do to get it."

And of course, Rand indeed glorified "capitalists," assuming they would act according to her basically altruistic [2] standards of morality. She didn't fully realize that, even in her day, one of the most preferred ways to accumulate capital was in cahoots with the force wielders in governments. See Silent Partners http://www.thespiritof76.com/NEX_NEWS/SILENTPA.HTM for excellent context and examples. We libertarian type folks know the business-government partnership as "mercantilism" and/or "fascism."

I seem to rarely encounter people that have a difficult time understanding capitalism. Most everybody I know just takes the free market for granted. Value for value. Everyday stuff. -ET

Indeed, folks tend to take "free markets" for granted -- which is quite telling, since the only free markets that exist today are so-called "black markets." The fact that we defenders of free trade in free markets have usually chosen to defend "capitalism" rather than free trade has helped enabled our "enemies" to clandestinely subvert markets to the degree that "Most everybody [you] know" mis takes our current-day extremely restricted, controlled and manipulated markets "for granted" as "free markets!"

Virtually everyone I deal with on a continuing basis are capitalists, not mercantilists or fascists. Essentially, people trying to improve their standard of living by serving others, our apparently hated capitalists. Are you really trying to get me to believe that nearly all the transactions you make from day to day are at the hands of unabashed mercantilists? -ET

You probably rarely encounter the mega-capitalists, who regularly and as a matter of course, seek out and create partnerships with government for fun and profit. The value for value stuff is for the little guy who can't afford one or even a piece of the ~22,000 paid lobbyists [3] prowling the halls of congress, looking for special favors and subsidies for their employers.

And turn your "capitalist" friends (whom you "deal with on a continuing basis" [4]) -- or even me -- loose in a context where free-market competition has been eliminated, where "society" has taken J.D. Rockefeller's aphorism, "Competition is a sin," to heart and watch the prices rise and the quality of products and services delivered plummet. They, as are we, are "selfish," particularly in taking care of our face-to-face group members, our families, our tribe. [5]

That's why we honest, straight forward libertarian type folks regularly remind people, "Caveat emptor," (Let the buyer beware.) Indeed because we are selfish, given the chance, we are all potential mercantilists.

This doesn't mean I oppose free-markets, just the opposite: Because we're basically selfish, particularly at the "tribal" level, we MUST have free trade in free markets to balance out our selfishness. "Greed is good" only when the competition inherent in free trade forces us to share the results of our increasing efficiencies with each other.

If you want an example of what happens when such free-market competition is severely attenuated, take a look at the chief "business" which has no effective endogenous competitors. That "business" is, of course, called "government."

So ET, such an effective and motivated communicator as yourself might consider trying a new tactic -- just once or twice as an experiment. The next time you run up against a "capitalism hater," use some jujitsu. Use your opponent's "momentum" against him. Agree that "capitalism" is bad. Equate it with mercantilism/fascism. Then point out on the other hand how saving and "investing" are good for "society" and free trade makes it all possible.

Michael Emerling, now Michael Cloud, who managed Harry Browne's Libertarian Party presidential runs made the tactic famous. He called it "political cross-dressing." If you try it, you'll be amazed at how well it works. I've personally converted hard core lefties to folks who understand why markets are good in less than 5 minutes.

Certainly, my attempts at convincing you of such have met with failure. Wish me luck in the future. -ET

The only thing you didn't convince me to do was to use and defend the word and concept of "capitalism" as it's commonly understood by "the masses" in preference to defending "free trade in free markets."

I most certainly wish you the best of luck in the future -- we're both most definitely on the same team afterall.

Regards,
Journeyman

NOTES:

[1] Actually "investing" is what the investment industry likes you to think you're doing -- what an "investor" is really doing is gambling, risking saved-up surplusses with the expectation he will get more surplusses back than he originally risked. As I said, this is in my opinion a very beneficial (in the long-run "common interest") thing to do. Usually. return

[2] Rand assumed, rather than take the selfish way -- allying with the folks in government (who steal -- tax -- to make a living) -- her heros would sacrifice their time, their investor's money, and risk their employees jobs by going against the grain and trying to compete with those who count on government tax theft to back them up. return

[3] By a close vote, the Senate voted NOT to close debate [which prevents a vote -j.] on a bill significantly changing the way class-action lawsuits would be handled, making it easy for insurance companies and other corporations to move suits out of state courts, seen as friendly to plantifs, and into over-crowded Federal courts, seen as less friendly to plaintiffs. This move made passage of the bill less likely -- and was somewhat of a surprise because the insurance industry, etc. mobilized an army of at least 400 lobbists to press congress for passage. [That's 4 lobbyists for each of the 100 U.S. senators. -j.] -CNBC, October 22, 2003, 13:17:50 return

[4] The fact these are folks you "deal with on a continuing basis" suggests that they are people you know face-to-face and so, subliminally at least, you treat each other as "tribe" members. This puts you on the inside of Brewer's "clique selfishness" (see next endnote below) and means you may take care of each other better (easier refunds, quicker service, more discounte) than you would a random "stranger"/customer. You would all be less likely to treat each other as outsiders and thus in addition to the size barrier to fascist behavior, you all have the mutual group membership barrier as well. return

[5] Based on social-dilemma studies, psychologist Marilynn B. Brewer of the University of California, Los Angeles, suggests that if the sense of belonging and identity provided by small groups is essential to human functioning, then "clique selfishness" may well be more powerful than even the most rabid individual self-interest. -Bruce Bower, "Getting Out From Number One," SCIENCE NEWS, April 28, 1990, p. 267. I would never steal or kill for myself -- but my family, my tribe is hurting . . . . (I know you have trouble with this idea, ET, but ask a mother sometime how far she would go if she were starving. Then ask her how far she would go if her child was starving.) return

[Edit]

catching up -- qwerty, 00:50:03 11/29/03 Sat

------------

dotti

>My view is just to step aside and let them go over the cliff. I will try to save family and loved ones--but you nor I can save the world. Sad, but true.

agreed

living in this country, i still have a psychological attachment

when i do move out of the country, that is pretty much what i will do

i think I saw Hank Williams Jr. sing a patriotic song supposedly supporting the troops during a half time football game

I think about all those people like that who sincerely say they support America and freedom and the US troops

What I see are the people Orwell talked about

They are so blinded that they haven't a clue they are supporting the destruction of America, destruction of the US constitution and supporting the politicians who have utterly committed treason against the USA in the most heinous way
along with supporting a global criminal and murder racket

These are the type of people helping to usher in totalitarianism into the US

They will be the people who will have to wake up and clean up the shit

yes, it will get a whole lot worse

----------

Sojourner

>For over a year, I have been building a file on Sinclair because of my negative "gut feeling" about him. I have emailed him numerous times and have never received a reply. IMO, he resents being asked about his opinions by a "nobody" like me and thereforth ignores them.

auspec

>FWIW........I have directly sent information to James Sinclair asking him to defend his position as "Pied Piper of

I sent him stuff questioning him but he never responds

with Sinclair, one takes the good with the bad

-----------------

auspec
>So he cleans up a few mutual fund and currency bad apples..........he'll get in way over his head if he pokes too deep. Ted Truman and his ilk won't stand for it. Is Spitzer foolhardy or naive enough to believe we are still a "free market" economy. I figured a few greedy rascals simply overstepped some near invisible boundary lines, got excessively avaricious, and needed to be used as an example. Much like the Martha Stewart case

I agree ... but it gets worse

===

The banking proposal looks suspiciously like another Bush administration scheme: HR 2179, a House bill introduced this session by Rep. Richard Baker (R-La.) and supported by Rep. Michael Oxley, (R-Ohio), Bush’s point man on corporate crime. The pending legislation is supposed to beef up the anemic and long-under-funded Securities Exchange Commission. But it, too, would curb the power of states to combat stock market scams.

HR 2179, which is currently idling but could be revived, has drawn howls from state authorities and consumer advocates, with Spitzer labeling it “an absolute, outright betrayal of the small investor.”

http://inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=454_0_2_0_C

===

journeyman
>Americans may not be as stupid and sheepleized as you think.

the major reason for me to exit the US is because my perceptions don't agree with the above statement

the most dangerous people are the criminals, dumb asses and sheep who will help implement the totalitarian system

if it weren't for them, the people behind the patriot act would be powerless

as far as the 39% ... that is usually the figure when people are not angry about anything

once they become angry, that figure usually goes to 65%

the angrier the american people are, the worse type of criminals and thugs they will support for office

-------

Tree in the forest
>If your looking for mining stock options, you may want to consider Meridian Gold (MDG), Gold Fields of SA (GFI), and Harmony (HMY). I have been posting about these companies for several years but people seem

thanks for the suggestions

>PS. Eliot Spitzer is one of the biggest gun control advocates on the planet and is suing gun manufacturers. Enough said

put an X on Eliot Spitzer as a danger to the country

-----

HBM
>Well, a decade passes and things don’t go so well. Islam gives us a sucker punch on 911 day and laughs in our

911 attack was a US military / intelligence covert operation to help grease the way for the Patriot Act
Another US covert operation will be carried out to finalize the destruction of freedom in the US

as for the US securing Iraq oil. Saddam Hussein was their CIA asset. He was used to start a war. Notice we can't find him either. How quaint.

-----

Flinter
ism's are just words for the sheep

the main problem is concentration of power and wealth

it is the ORWELLIAN use of capitalism and socialism by the criminals

people say they believe in something but they really don't

Just like people support "Freedom" but it is really just an empty word to most of them

Free Trade, Free Markets ... just more empty words to people ...

>Without "Capital" there would be no society or progress

look around you and what do you see

powerful sophisticated criminals in control of most of the capital on this planet

you think this is progress

you think the massive assault and repression by these criminals against humanity is progress

chumps argue about the isms while enforcers for the criminals behind the scenes make convincing arguments

the loser of the argument ends up dead

economically, things won't improve until people realize they have been brainwashed into the concept of scarcity by the criminals running the system

as long as the economic system is lead by criminals, the economic system will be a master and slave based one and talk of any ism is just some decoration to cover up the criminality, perversion and corruption

[Edit]

j-man -- ET, 21:10:39 11/28/03 Fri

Hey j-man – thanks for the conversation. You wrote in part:

“I concurr that saving and investing is a good idea and generally beneficial not only to the folks behaving in this way, but also to many of the rest of us as well.”

Well that’s fine then, j-man, you understand the importance of capital. Believe it or not, you’ve concisely described the entire process. The 'capital' part of capitalism is the key to understanding free markets.

”And if you wanted to call the clearer notion of free trade in free markets, say, ‘saverism’ or perhaps ‘investmentism’ rather than ‘capitalism’ -- which glorifies money and people that have it rather than what people do to get it -- I think that would be an improvement, but I'd still suggest that ‘free trade’ and/or ‘free market’ is clearer and much more defensible.”

Frankly, j-man, I was not aware that the term “capitalism” glorifies money and people that have it rather than what people do to get it. I seem to rarely encounter people that have a difficult time understanding capitalism. Most everybody I know just takes the free market for granted. Value for value. Everyday stuff.

“Now, ET, you've suggested that not all "captains of industry," and particularly small enterpreneurs, are mercantalist/fascists and so represent the "captialist" ranks well.

”I hope you're right, but as a professional gambler, I would not bet on it -- because the good, sound business motivation of these "capitalists" to also be mercantalist/fascists is so strong.”

Ha! Now I see the problem! You don’t have a clue how the market works! As a professional businessman, I will take that bet! Virtually everyone I deal with on a continuing basis are capitalists, not mercantilists or fascists. Essentially, people trying to improve their standard of living by serving others, our apparently hated capitalists. Are you really trying to get me to believe that nearly all the transactions you make from day to day are at the hands of unabashed mercantilists? A bit hard to believe.

“Thus mercantalist/fascist behavior is integral to any business person”

Utter nonsense. Your stripes are showing, j-man. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

“What is your reason, ET, for defending a term that, rightly or wrongly -- rightly in my opinion -- carries such negative baggage with large numbers of people?

”What's your "categorical imperative" for using this term when free trade in free markets is more primary and more easily defensible?

”Why, other than historical accident and habit, won't you try, just as an experiment, a different tack the next time you're confronted with someone who, correctly or not, "confuses" capitalism with mercantilism/fascism?

Certainly, my attempts at convincing you of such have met with failure. Wish me luck in the future.

[Edit]

POS . . . -- Netking, 20:40:12 11/28/03 Fri

1980's POS high of $52.25 is worth around $113.59 in todays [1992] fiat . . . if we think that's impressive, the alltime POS high reached in the year 1406 is now worth $889.79 in todays fiat . . . anything less than $7.50 is a giveaway price for this supermetal . . . make it a silver Christmas.

[Edit]

SLATT @ 06:32:24 11/27/03 Thu (The nuclear option) -- HBM, 20:29:06 11/28/03 Fri

Hey SLATT, I thought I might try to clear up a possible misunderstanding

Excerpt from your above referenced post:

“…Yes nuclear power will be one of the necessary pieces during the transition. So will wind, solar and geothermal sources. These areas and others have been ignored for the past 30 years. Forget about oil shale. Not going to happen any time soon. Coal and nat. gas will be used instead. Fuel cell technology is transitional IMO. Fusion technology may be realized within the next 50 years. Tremendous energy projects will only advance beyond theory if there is a compelling economic/security reason to do so. Change rarely occurs without upset…”

END OF EXCERPT

HBM comment:

Your post was I think a response to my post (The true weapon of mass destruction – HBM, 22:09:30 11/26/03 Wed)

I did refer to the nuclear option in my post. Was your comment about nuclear power a response to my comment? Maybe not. Maybe it was just a portion your general thoughts concerning a rosier scenario than I posited.

I just wanted to clear up and expound upon what I meant when I referred to B>the nuclear option. I Just want to make sure that no one thinks that I was referring to the use of nuclear power to solve the problem of U. S. oil dependency.

First I must quote a scripture to show the real source of my speculations in this area.

“Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophecy against him…Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army…Persia and Ethiopia and Libya with them…Gomer and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee…and thou shalt think an evil thought, and thou shalt say, I will go up to the land…to take a spoil and to take a prey…in that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely…thou shalt come from thy place in the north parts, thou and many people with thee…a might Army…and thou shall come up against my people of Israel… (Ezekiel 38:4-6,10-12,15-16)

For a good number of years I have felt that the fulfillment of this particular prophecy against Gog, whose prince is referred to as Magog, has been rapidly approaching. Much has been written by a couple of rather intelligent men concerning the coming fulfillment of this particular prophecy.

In 1940 “The Coming War and the Rise of Russia” by Harry Rimmer was published. Fifty-five years later in 1995 “The Magog Invasion” by Chuck Missler appeared in print. What was written by Chuck Missler’s Book confirmed the earlier writings of Harry Rimmer, though he never mentioned Rimmer. IMO, the writings of Harry Rimmer have stood the test of time for 63 years now.

The following IMO, are basic thoughts concerning the 38th and 39th chapters of Ezekiel:

Some time after the re-establishment of the Israel as a nation, Russia (Gog) will attack Israel along with its natural allies all of whom are in dominance of Islam. Among the Russian allies are listed: -- Persia (Iran), Ethiopia (Cush – which in the broad connotative usage of the bible was generally viewed as embracing “Black Africa), Libya, Mauritania, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco (Phut or Put – which in the broad connotative usage of the Bible was associated with most of North Africa), and Armenia (Togarmah).

The exact identity of Gomer, Meshech and Tubal are not as clear but most students of history connect them with various areas associated with Russia today.

It should also be noted that the recent breakup of the Soviet Union released the Central Asian Republics (Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tadzhikistan, and Kyrgyzstan). They are now freer to join their Islamic brethren in their desire to drive Israel into the sea. According to Missler, “These five independent republics are Islamic, have nuclear weapons, and may well prove to be the ‘hooks in the jaw’ to draw Gog (Russia) into this ill-fated invasion of Israel.”

We should note that when Missler wrote his book in 1995, very few ordinary Americans, myself included, knew anything about the above-mentioned “five independent republics” of central Asia, which until recently were integral parts of the Soviet Union.

As I have watched events unfold over the last 15 years, I have been watching especially for "this coming war", this prophesied invasion of the nation of Israel by Russia and her allies. With each passing year I have wondered about that part of the prophecy which states that the reason for the attack will be “to take a spoil”. This particular area of the prophetic scenario has been difficult for me to fathom.

Yet so much of Bible prophecy has come to pass without the slightest hint of error in any detail that it would seem unreasonable, even foolish to suggest that this particular prophecy would be the first one to fail to come to pass in every detail.

Just recently I have come to wonder if oil might not be the “spoil” to which the prophecy in Ezekiel refers. Up until I began to shoot from the lip in my post @ (22:09:30 11/26/03 Wed) it had not occurred to me that “oil” might be the spoil.”

Here is what came to mind:

In the prophecy Israel is be said to have no allies to help when this attack occurs. At the present time the only real ally of Israel, IMO, is the United States of America. America doesn’t seem to come into view in the prophecy either as an ally of Israel or as an ally of Russia. Could it be that the United States will simply step aside and give these nations their opportunity to take Israel out?

This very speculative thought occurs to me. The United States as a nation now has a tiger by the tail (Iraq), a tiger that cannot be let go. How will the U. S. get out of this terrible mess? A secret deal might be made behind closed doors. In exchange for Iraqi oil, the U. S. might agree to step aside and let the haters of Israel have a go at them. There is no question that the only thing that stands in the way of a concerted Islamic attack, the aim of which would be the annihilation of Israel, is the United States of America.

The United States would have no trouble subduing the nation of Iraq and taking total control of the oil for its own purposes, were the Islamic nations of the world to give a collective nod. This of course would be more feasible should Russia agree. There is no doubt in my mind that such an attack would occur in short order were the U. S. to assure all would be attackers that it would not in any way come to Israel’s defense.

Now, what do the Islamic nations desire more than even their oil? Who would argue that it would not be the annihilation of Israel? I expect that the nations of Islam would accept this deal in a heartbeat. I also expect that Russia, along with the five above-mentioned independent republics of central Asia would agree to such a plan upon the condition that they participate in the spoils of such a war.

For a long time I never considered that oil could be that which was referred to in Ezekiel’s prophecy. My reason was simply because Israel had no known significant oil deposits beneath its soil. Suddenly it seems quite possible that through an indirect (back door) approach, oil could very well become "the spoil." In exchange for the withdrawal of the protection of Israel, Iraqi oil supplies might be allowed to the west in general and the United States in particular.

I could share more thoughts on this if there were some questions to address. This possibility is a new one to me and certainly is pure speculation on my part. The possibilities of how such a scenario as this might play out are multitudinous. One thing that comes to mind in regards to the "law of unintended consequences” is that a nuclear exchange might result causing unthinkable chaos for the entire world. Any thoughts.

HBM

PS: OmarD, I know that it is impossible for you and I to come to agreement as concerns Islam and Israel. You believe your holy book to be infallible. I believe my holy book to be infallible. The two are in diametric opposition to each other. Both cannot be right. Either can be wrong. If one proves to be true the other is proven to be fallible. I understand where you are coming from in your posts. I think you understand where I am coming from in my posts.

IMO, the biggest mistake that I can make in this area is to deem that all believers in your holy book are full of hate for Israel and will not rest until Israel is obliterated. By the same token, IMO, the biggest mistake you can make in this area is to deem that all who claim to be believers in Christ (i.e. George Bush) are really followers of Christ. Claiming the name of Christ does not necessarily make one a Christian. As a fine old gentleman once said, “Just because a mouse is in the cookie jar, that does not make him a cookie.” I freely admit that just because a person claims to be a believer in the Islamic religion, it does not necessarily follow that he is a hater of Israel. Yet, IMO, while the odds seem to be much in favor of such a person being a hater of Israel, the odds of a person claiming to be a cookie by virtue of his being in a cookie jar are rather small.

I can tell you without reservation that, while I love Israel (My Bible says that Israel is the apple of God’s eye), I do not hate the Palestinians, not for a moment. Let me put it this way. I reject out of hand what someone once said, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. The enemy of my enemy, I say, is not necessarily my friend. Let me go one further and say that "The enemy of my friend is not necessarily my enemy.”

[Edit]

test -- qwerty, 17:23:47 11/28/03 Fri

posts not appearing immediately

[Edit]

well ... -- hAug, 16:40:50 11/28/03 Fri

... after a week in the sticks in Arkansas, I'm back at the crib and contemplating such matters as acquiring some of Mrs Ironhead's herbal cookies.

Meanwhile, in some of my recent reading, it has been noted that the gold belonging to the Confederacy, said to be substantial, was never accounted for. Has anyone ever read up on this and have any insights to offer ?

hAug

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