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EagleRanch PRIMARY Forum 1
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Welcome to EagleRanch PRIMARY Forum 1

** FAQ & Guidelines **
@All -- dotti, 22:07:52 11/06/03 Thu

Hello, All.

Just a quick note. Show was good tonight. Most of the action will be next three days. very tired, but I wanted to answer and thank.

I want to thank those of you who have offered suggestions for my answer to my big brother.

Jomama, you make a good point, except that very little information is actually factual in the sense that I KNOW it for a fact myself. And. To trust my own judgment, I would have to be able to ascertain what facts were true.

An example: I read yesterday that war planes are being sent to the M.E.; that Bush is probably going to use the threat of an imminent terrorist attack as a reason for a first strike offensive. Okay. That sounds plausible. But so does this: There is a threat of a terrorist attack. Bush is moving war planes to the M.E. in order to let the other side know that if there is a strike against us, he will retaliate.

There is no way for me to know which is the truth—or whether something else is the truth.

And. Selection of the pill would be based upon whether I believed that there was a purpose to life and a higher being—which I do. Otherwise, I would take the blue pill. Why not? Why choose misery over bliss? Unless, that is, you believe that there is a higher purpose to life—and I doubt that is what the Matrix projects. Think about it. What is reality—really?

Flinter, you have a far better grasp of history than I. I would like for you to elaborate. My thinking is that the stock market of the late 1920’s was “on margin”, which is another word for debt. I think that debt creation—using the multiplier effect—may be the real culpret here. The world’s greatest economic problem is simply DEBT. Worldwide. It’s debt. You can keep expanding the money supply by creating more and more debt—but. At some point, it has to stop expanding. If something can’t go on for ever, it probably won’t. The rubber band was stretched more and more until it snapped.

I think that the same thing is in the making. Politicians will not allow the “normal” recessionary times in markets that does the normal adjusting to the markets. Therefore, when they are no longer able to continue to manipulate the markets, the result is catastrophic. The same thing is about to occur. Maybe this year, maybe years from now—but, it will happen, eventually.

Flinter, can you give me more to pass on to him. He believes that markets need to be controlled by governments. I think that it is just a setup. It may work for a while, but then the results are even worse. And. In the meantime, the cronies are making out like bandits—oops, I forgot—they are bandits.

Qwerty, thanks for your input. I’m afraid that I continue to disagree with a basic premise of yours—there is no way for the American people to know the “truth” when they receive a constant diet of lies. The only way for any major change to occur is for someone to come along—an Alan Keys, perhaps—who will be powerful enough, charismatic enough, to make an impact. BTW, Ron Paul cannot take on all issues. As a parent, I realized that I had to choose my battles—I could not forbid everything that I may disapprove—I picked my battles very carefully.

Qwerty: “also one has to have a political IQ below a moron not to realize the democrats and republicans are the same ...”

Well, qwerty, you got me. I don’t think that they are the same. I watched the Impeachment. I think there was a difference.

Now. That doesn’t mean that I think that the Republicans are knights in shining armour and that they will ride up on their white horses and save the day—but—they are different from the democrats.

OmarD, the design tht you called “hangover” somehow reminded me of Madonna. Hmmmm.

RossL, your comments most reflected my own. Don’t kill the messenger. Debt was created out of nothing. Then gold got blamed when everything came apart. I would love for you to elaborate. My brother(s) think that I am too “conspiracy” oriented. They would never believe that the bankers participated in such a fraud. Can you offer more proof?

Beesting, thanks for the link. I read some of it, but didn’t read it all. Sorry. I think that he would consider that as more proof that gold was a negative influence in the Great Depression. Thanks.

Thanks again to all who have offered comments. I still need more for my “essay” for my brother. He is very establishment. No conspiracies for him.

Take care, All.

dotti

[Edit]
Current POG, POS, POP & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 21:47:13 11/06/03 Thu

US$/POGUS$/POSEURO/POGU$D




LbS/POG London Fix LbS/POS



PLAT
PALL


[Edit]
goldus -- auspec, 20:16:25 11/06/03 Thu

Glad U enjoy the snippets here and there. A computer glitch, on their part, currently has me off that chat site in spite of the issue that I am one of their longest running posters. I would have to empty all my "cookies" in order to get back aboard and I am hanging on to my cookies. Smile. When I re-up for renewal will make sure I'm able to get back to the chat site.

Interesting tidbit. The proprietor of 321 gold used to post at LeMet and there was quite a rowe. What a world class windbag. He got toasted and started his own site................imagine that.I enjoy using it w/o compensation.........smile. The guy is an old Air Force decorated hero & won't hesitate to proclaim same. He could very well have "intelligence" background as well as foreground.

I did get to have a few late night rounds w Bill Murphy in N.O. and he spent a good half hour talking to my 23 year old son. What a nice guy. I used my time wisely to hammer home the point that crimex should be equalized by taking down physical silver and gold. Murphy nor Turk think the time is now right to do this. Maybe they're right as the place will fall under its own weight sooner or later. That is, however, what I would advocate if I were in their shoes.

Things are going our way, no? I don't mind this stealth bull mkt............staying under the radar screen works well.

Nice to see some resource stock talk at ER..........MUCH is happening.

[Edit]
Conscription fears raised in US -- Netking, 20:06:17 11/06/03 Thu

The Pentagon has begun recruiting for local draft boards, dredging up painful memories of Vietnam-era conscription at a time of deepening misgivings about the US' occupation of Iraq. In a notice posted on the defense department's Defend America Web site, Americans over the age of 18 and with no criminal record are invited to "serve your community and the nation" by volunteering for the boards, which decide which recruits should be sent to war.

http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=25653&lang=en

[Edit]
goldus -- qwerty, 19:29:04 11/06/03 Thu

i remember him saying the dollar was going to drop 20 to 30 percent at least back some months ago but then on the broadcast he says he knows where it is going and doesn't want to show his hand

the nice thing about being a financial insider is one knows how the general script will proceed and more important probably the timing


here is something cut from anonymous on rense site

===

We have had a 2,500 point upside move on the Dow without one 10% pullback. Which has not happened in almost twenty five years. This cannot be done without blatent market manipulation.

===

just a reminder

[Edit]
beesting -- qwerty, 19:07:01 11/06/03 Thu

>Ron Paul has been elected to congress NOT by qwerty or me but by the people of the 14th(?) district of Texas to represent themselves.......They raised enough paper money to back Dr.Paul in his bid for congress, successfully......These are the people Dr. Paul has to answer to

the only question is how dumb they are

with ron paul remaining so silent about so many serious issues, i would bet his constituency is as much in the dark as the rest of america is ... do his constituency know the war on terrorism is a complete fraud

my guess that many of his constituency voted for him because he is a "republican"

my guess that the reason ron paul hasn't had any move against him like mckinney has is because he is a covert operative of the cabal so won't touch the treason against america that is rampant in his party

and remember, texas is where the bush mafia rule

also

==
Besides the 14th District's rich history, it is also home to a rich diversity of economic interests. From the petrochemical companies and rice farmers along the coast, to ranchers and cotton growers inland, from small businesses to oil producers, the district represents not only a cross-section of Texas' economy, but is vital to the nation.
==

you think he could survive in a district where oil mafia is present


===

WASHINGTON - The House delivered a broad but ambiguous rebuke to President Bush on Tuesday, voting in favor of loans to Iraq and improved medical benefits for veterans and military reservists.

The 277-139 vote was nonbinding, but it highlighted a restiveness over Bush's insistence that U.S. rebuilding aid to Iraq be a grant, not a loan. House-Senate bargainers hope to produce a compromise $87 billion package for Iraq and Afghanistan next week, and GOP leaders in both chambers say they intend to drop Senate-passed language making half the rebuilding aid a loan.

The vote came the same day the White House threatened for the first time to veto the overall bill if the loan language survives.

By underscoring Bush's opposition to loans, the veto threat could make it easier for congressional Republican leaders to nail down enough votes to help the president prevail.

Both legislators representing the Victoria area, Ron Paul (R-Surfside) and Ruben Hinojosa (D-Mercedes), voted in favor of the resolution.

===

i like the orwellian language from above ... they "rebuked" bush ... that's funny

ron paul voted to fund the manufactured war in iraq

[Edit]
@Qwerty -- goldus, 18:53:21 11/06/03 Thu

Soro's pals must have really gotten off on watching him on Bloomberg as he shoos people off their trail. Too bad more people are not accomplished animal trackers- scat droppings and all.

[Edit]
Is idiocy driving the USA to an Arab-Zionist war? -- Netking, 18:51:37 11/06/03 Thu

Worth re-visiting with this . . .is destiny or idiocy driving the USA into an Arab-Zionist war?

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0304/S00154.htm

[Edit]
@Qwerty, auspec -- goldus, 18:45:46 11/06/03 Thu

@Auspec - Thanks for putting out the Midas snippets. Hope to get subscribed there this year and might see you at the forum!
@Qwerty - Thanks for postings. Soros quotes on Bloomberg ARE revealing.

[Edit]
Sector-Man -- auspec, 17:40:38 11/06/03 Thu

Bolser from 2night's Midas w permission:


Interventional Analysis

What I'm attempting in these studies is a form of cryptanalysis—the construction of useful code and tactical recognition systems. A modicum of success has been achieved in disclosing the details of preemptive selling of COMEX gold and the use of Federal Reserve repurchase agreement open market operations by primary dealers to support the DOW via index futures buying.

There is another government interventional program in the bond market designed to support long term interest rates. While very early in the analysis, I can report that high-level academic work has been done by the Fed in the area of "Policy Puts" in the longer interest rate areas. A detailed formula-rich paper has been published a few years back and describes the methods and tools needed to "enforce" market policy. Thanks to Frank Veneroso for the lead to this valuable article.

Mentioned in this article by PA Tinsley was the need for very large liquidity in interest rate derivatives in order to assure the effectiveness of the scheme to control rates--thus, we continue to see a huge $20 Trillion interest rate derivative colossus at J P Morgan. Experts have wondered why the Fed tolerated such a large position. It fits with a Fed generated plan to rig interest rates in the first instance.

Gold and Interest Rates

In "Preemptive Selling of Gold, the Bigger Picture"
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_02/bolser103102.html

, I drew attention to the fact that J P Morgan's massive interest rate derivative
position first began only AFTER the 200-day moving average of gold was broken by a 4.22 standard deviation preemptive selling orgy in June 1996.

In retrospect, we see that the Fed felt free to build its J P Morgan Chase interest rate derivative colossus because they felt they had slain the golden dragon. They controlled gold and interest rates. It was to be a new era, a new paradigm, a New Economy.

The best laid plans...
Mike

END

[Edit]
"HATE..." -- OmarD, 17:24:05 11/06/03 Thu

"DEMOCRACY" IN THE MIDDLE EAST
BUSH INSISTS IN MAJOR SPEECH TODAY
----

Bush Urges Democratic Reforms in Mideast

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031106/D7UL7QF00.html

-----

IN IRAQ AND MUCH OF THE WORLD "HATE" GROWS FOR U.S.



"They detained her...well over 100 years old...

Brown burlap bags were placed over their heads.
Terrified and crying, they were driven in Humvees to the nearby U.S. base at Habbaniya... Standing outside her home...her weathered face adorned with the green tattoos of rural Iraq, Towqan groped for the right words to denounce the five-day detentions... She found them in the religion that infuses this Sunni Muslim region west of Baghdad. 'God does not accept this,' she said simply."


MID-EAST REALITIES - MER - www.MiddleEast.Org - Washington - 6 November 2003: Throughout the world, most especially in the Arab and Muslim worlds, hate for the U.S. has reached startling levels. In Iraq, against all the technological, financial, and covert superiority of the United States Empire, an underground resistance fueled by this hate is battling in ways few thought possible just a few months ago earlier this year.

Meanwhile Washington resembles more and more a kind of disfigured self-emulating Alice and Wonderful these days. An inept and ignorant crusading American President who knows next to nothing about the Middle East, nor the world for that matter, is writing constitutions for Arab Muslim countries and proclaiming against all historical realities that the U.S. is on the side of bringing 'democracy' to the region!

Only if the new meaning of 'democracy' is U.S. imperial domination coupled with CIA control and manipulation, on top of now brutal military occupation, can one make any sense now of the extraordinary disconnect between rhetoric and reality...

---

(am "feeling"/"seeing" an "IMAX" size version of that "second" "fractal" I posted below earlier today!!!...)

OmarD



[Edit]
dotti...Gold during The Great Depression! -- beesting, 17:09:48 11/06/03 Thu

A small part of your message concerning Gold during "The Great Depression":
(Snip)
dotti....but I enjoy the mental stimulation of such--plus, it would be nice to be able to impress my big brother!
(Unsnip)
Well for starters, physical Gold went from $20.00 per ounce to $35.00 by Presidential decree overnight.

Since physical Gold was totally control-ed by the U.S. government, including gvt. inspectors at Gold mines, the best comparison I saw was posted at Gold Eagle back in 1999, here is a part of it:

Click here to see full details and chart of how Homestake Goldmine performed during "The Great Depression".

(a snip) Homestake soared relentlessly to $495 a share by yearend 1935 - THAT'S
NEARLY 520% CAPITAL APPRECIATION (34%
compounded yearly increased value). And
during the six depression years of
international economic suffering, Homestake
paid out $128 in cash dividends. In 1935
alone, the gold mining proxy paid a $56 cash
dividend per share - which represented 70%
of the 1929 Crash Price of the stock.(Unsnip)

dotti, I hope your brother has access to the "net" so he can read the full article.
Good Luck at Your Show.........beesting.

[Edit]
Dotti -- RossL, 16:24:04 11/06/03 Thu

Dotti said:

"I am in the process of trying to construct a reply to my eldest brother who says that it was his understanding that the gold standard and its restrictions were partially responsible for the Great Depression. Any help would be appreciated."

How about an analogy. Your brother's statement is like a criminal saying "It is because of the law against fraud that I went to jail. If it weren't for that pesky law I would be free and rich, too." Meanwhile, the criminal is ignoring his moral responsibility to himself and the world.

The statement about the great depression ignores the moral responsibility of the politicians and bankers of the world who defrauded the citizens of the world.

[Edit]
Don't u just luv it. -- volavka, 15:10:21 11/06/03 Thu

fraud in the mkt is
ex-scrusky-ating.

[Edit]
2 schools -- volavka, 14:34:15 11/06/03 Thu

those hurt in mkt before are rushing into pennies hoping for the home runs.

those in the junior select metals are in different boat.

D.D. on all.

Still waiting for the gold move, tomorrow...

[Edit]
no, it's just doubled since the last post -- number six, 14:05:43 11/06/03 Thu


[Edit]
sorry, make that 1500% -- number six, 13:19:38 11/06/03 Thu

c

[Edit]
yep agis -- number six, 13:14:12 11/06/03 Thu

I've been watching them the last 1/2 hour with my jaw on the floor. Up over 2000% at one stage today. Not really tempted to jump on though. Fun watching magr & apll racing each other too.

[Edit]
agis -- volavka, 13:06:50 11/06/03 Thu

big run.

[Edit]
Nothing is new -- Frisco Fred, 12:35:01 11/06/03 Thu


For over a hundred years we have laughed at the scientist who said, "Everything that can be invented has been invented." But now I am thinking that the laugh may be on us. Everything HAS been invented---it is just that in our time and civilization, we have not yet become aware of it.

Have you read THE EPIC OF GILGAMESH? It was written about 5000 years ago (Quite informative).
It is akin to the Trials of Odysseus, only much older, easier to read and full of sci-fi. It has spaceships, laser beams, genetic engineering, etc. Now, I in no way claim this to be a true story, but please tell me.......HOW did they know about spaceships, laser beams, etc. to even write about them unless they had already been made? At least in someone's mind. These were the Sumerians. Too bad that some of the other groups did not yet have a written language to leave a record of their life's events. Or maybe some of them did, but just have not yet been discovered.

Why won't the Egyptians allow excavations under the paws of the Sphinx where sonar has already shown chambers do exist and ancient, ancient stories tell us this is one of the Hall of Records? The Sphinx has been proven to be much older than the pyramids, so from where, whom and when might some older records have come?

Warm breezes,
Fred

[Edit]
Ummm, re. "fractals" -- OmarD, 11:54:53 11/06/03 Thu

Ok...I may have taken the wrong "pill" somewhere along the line...

OmarD

[Edit]
@Jomama..."Feeling" Fractals... -- OmarD, 11:47:29 11/06/03 Thu

Hi Jomama...

OK ... want to learn "how to feel a "fractal", uh? --- here is a short lesson ---


Ever had one of these?




("Hangover")

Or,

how about...when you are really pissed off!!!



("Anger")



Once you "recognise" they are "seen," "felt," and "experienced" - EVERYWHERE!!! basic blueprint for all "life" - (& "experience")


Regards,

OmarD


[Edit]
Opinion on politics,Ron Paul,& WHY the "POOR" can't change anything! -- beesting, 11:37:03 11/06/03 Thu

First, my opinion on exactly why the founders specified Americans use Gold/Silver as money:
Answer: To spread the real wealth to "ALL" Americans who realized exactly what real wealth could buy!(political power? Among other things.)

On Ron Paul: Ask yourself how anyone gets elected to anything in the USA now-a-days.

Answer: He/she that has hired the very best marketeers/salespeople/active election campaign committee members to sell an image to the voters.
This costs mucho time, effort, and most of all paper dollars!
The paper dollars are collected mostly from "SPECIAL" interest groups.
Special interest groups can be anybody from "BIG" business groups, labor unions, churches, etc. etc. to foriegn governments.(Clinton & China comes to mind)

Average working people/poor people/non-paper money contributers are no longer represented in America simply because they have not contributed enough of the paper money to pay for any meaningful representation.

Ron Paul has been elected to congress NOT by qwerty or me but by the people of the 14th(?) district of Texas to represent themselves.......They raised enough paper money to back Dr.Paul in his bid for congress, successfully......These are the people Dr. Paul has to answer to.....(he was elected as a Republican, therefor Republican paper money contributions helped get him elected)......apparently these political contributers are NOT asking Dr. Paul to answer any of the questions Mr. qwerty has brought up on this E.R. forum.

Now, I happen to agree with "Most" of Dr. Pauls political opinions and think if he could ever be elected to President he would try to completely change( Back To The Founders Principles) the way America is run today,,,,,OR it's possible a few other mainstream politicos would be influenced by Dr.Pauls published words and take heed.(7 years ago he was the Presidential candidate on the Libertarian party platform)

The Bottom Line Is:
The reason things seem completely out of "Whack" for non-paper-money-contributers is simply because we didn't "PAY" up front as much as the people who currently have control of the worldwide "Paper Money Regime[s]". Your stolen TAX money has ZERO voting power, or may be being used against you!

Which brings my brain back to the hidden WHY[s] of Gold/Silver ownership.......If Gold/Silver is ever used as everyday money again wouldn't that have a tendancy to distribute more widely, than now, the political opinions of,"We The People?"

Thanks For Reading.........beesting.

[Edit]
Soros, US oligarchs and gold -- qwerty, 10:56:34 11/06/03 Thu

One way to tell who most of the financial INSIDERS are in the US is who down plays gold or is silent about it

the financial insiders are helping to destroy america and enslave the american people even further

[Edit]
Prigogine -- Flinter, 10:51:05 11/06/03 Thu

Prigogine... studying entropy... noted that “open systems” sustain and evolve because they are able to dissipate entropy...and thus constantly grow in complexity. Closed systems cannot. They become more and more vulnerable to randomness and the entropy builds up. At some point, a close system (or a “no longer open” system) reaches what he called a “bifurcation point”. It breaks down...because it cannot handle reality...and either ceases to exist or spontaneously reorganizes into “something else”.

The interesting thing is that the “something else” that results is totally non-linear to the closed system. You cannot predict what will come by extrapolating from the old (closed) system.

We’re getting close.

Something a Slime Mold whispered in my ear,
Flinter

[Edit]
dotti -- qwerty, 10:13:50 11/06/03 Thu

also one has to have a political IQ below a moron not to realize the democrats and republicans are the same ... that was apparent decades ago ... this goes way beyond disinformation ... if the california election is any barometer, over 95% of the california voters are still suffering from self delusion ... there is no excuse except for the very young ...

during the destruction of america, re-election rates are probably close to 98% if not higher.

the real problem is your average american - they are politically dumb as a door nail or totally fecking indifferent.

watching a movie last night ...
take someone like bette midler. she has had a large number of her friends die of AIDS. Inspite of that, she supports that political status quo who have carried out a major cover up and disinformation campaign on AIDS. There was enough information out there to raise a lot of red flags ... in general, she is very smart but politically stupid ... she lives in a compartmentalized box and doesn't go beyond that ...

how does one fix the political problems given your average american ...

[Edit]
Prigogine -- Flinter, 10:13:48 11/06/03 Thu

Prigogine... studying entropy... noted that “open systems” sustain and evolve because they are able to dissipate entropy...and thus constantly grow in complexity. Closed systems cannot. They become more and more vulnerable to randomness and the entropy builds up. At some point, a close system (or a “no longer open” system) reaches what he called a “bifurcation point”. It breaks down...because it cannot handle reality...and either ceases to exist or spontaneously reorganizes into “something else”.

The interesting thing is that the “something else” that results is totally non-linear to the closed system. You cannot predict what will come by extrapolating from the old (closed) system.

We’re getting close.

Something a Slime Mold whispered in my ear,
Flinter

[Edit]
dotti -- qwerty, 09:44:04 11/06/03 Thu

===
you said: “my take on disinformation is that it makes the truth unknowable”

I agree, when it reaches the point (when lying no longer works). After this time...is what I refer to as painting the whole mural black. Make truth is unknowable. Works to...for awhile. Delays the inevitable
===

the major impediment are the american people

the major question is ...

when the american people make SHUTTING DOWN THE DISINFORMATION SYSTEM in the US run by the government and oligarchs / elites A MAJOR POLITICAL ISSUE

even goldbugs don't even talk about it

even ron paul keeps real quiet about it

ron paul needs to talk about Operation Mockingbird etc

disinformation doesn't make ALL the truth unknowable

there is enough information right in front of people's eyes to know something is very wrong

one may not need to know all the details

anybody interested in the truth has the internet and their mind to figure it out

disinformation creates inertia in the information system

it requires more energy and intelligence from people to dig it out

but there is more than enough right in front of people's eyes to know something is wrong ... an example is the patriot act

for most people, unless the information is blessed by their government or some tainted group they happen to be stupid enough to be a member of, it isn't true

for others, ignorance is bliss

for others, they simply don't care

with the internet, people have no excuse for not being aware that something is terribly wrong ... they may not know the entire truth but they should be very alarmed and looking around ... there will be more than a few angry downsized middle class when it is over but it will be a moot point since they preferred living in ignorance and allowed their government to be hijacked en masse by the criminals ... they just slept through it all and didn't care until TSHTF for them - it's too late for them to complain - the economic fate for most is sealed

[Edit]
@jomama -- Flinter, 09:42:01 11/06/03 Thu

Trinity should have said "The truth is INSIDE you, it's looking for you, it will find you (if you let it.)"

Sure you got your pills straight?

Best,
flinter

[Edit]
Running.... -- jomama, 09:26:15 11/06/03 Thu

A question from a friend:

"Jomama, tell me. What would u do as a member of Congress
or President, or dicktater of the wurld?"

Jomama sez:

"That's a non sequitur."

"An' now, back to living."

Ahhhhhhhhhh.

[Edit]
soros on bloomberg BITV -- qwerty, 09:23:44 11/06/03 Thu

caught some of it in bits and pieces ...

asked how far he thinks the dollar will fall

he said he knows where it will go but can't comment any further

asked whether gold will go above some price i missed

he said, he doesn't think it can because once interest rates rise, the cost of holding gold increases

asked where the US economy is headed

he said where the england economy went in the 50's and 60's

[Edit]
@dotti -- flinter, 09:19:52 11/06/03 Thu

Hi, dotti! Hope you are well.

you said: “my take on disinformation is that it makes the truth unknowable”

I agree, when it reaches the point (when lying no longer works). After this time...is what I refer to as painting the whole mural black. Make truth is unknowable. Works to...for awhile. Delays the inevitable.

Hopefully, that is when the fraud is about up.

Much pain is coming (reality), but a change is coming as well. Let’s hope that it is a change toward enlightenment, I think it will be.

As to your brother, if you want my opinion:

Tell him he is right, depending on what he means by “cause”. The gold standard DID try to correct the bubble caused by the inflation of the previous 20 years. In other words, reality (gold money) was correcting fraud in the Markets. A deflation.

The inflation started right after the creation of the Fed in 1913. Remember, the British bank cartel owned the Fed. The inflation in the dollar was to fund the British war and economy and therefore the British pound (at least that was the immediate need). There were longer term goals.

What would have been a recession, was turned into a depression by the subsequent policies of Fed, FDR, et al. Result, a depression & massive growth in the power of the Fed and government, and the enrichment of the insiders in the financial fraud.

And another world war.

We see the same thing happening today.

So, it depends on what he means by “caused”.

Best Wishes
Flinter

[Edit]
dotti and all -- jomama, 09:16:24 11/06/03 Thu

Yes, dotti. Trust no one's judgment or info but ur own.

And then verify, verify, think, think.

I have become a Super Sceptic because I know how often
I am wrong, and I know I'm definitely not alone.

There are no gurus, no authorites. We're all fumbling
in the dark simply cuz our imagination is soooooooooo much larger then our grasp of reality. I hypothesize that most don't have the genes do well at the latter.

The world is upside down.

Garbage sorting, as journeyman told me a long time ago,
is all.

But then u prefer the Red Pill, right, dotti?

Take it from me.

U can take any pill u like.

So can I.

I took the Blue Pill a long time ago. Before anybudy
ever heard of it.

And I don't need viagra yet, volavka.

U R free if u think u are?

Who knows.

Jo


P.s. OmarD: How does one FEEL like a fractal?

That's one I'd like to learn.

Damn, Flinter. I luv the way u think.

[Edit]
dec stops -- volavka, 07:23:34 11/06/03 Thu

@ 376 but don't expect them to fail.

[Edit]
Scumbags -- volavka, 07:02:49 11/06/03 Thu

are playing with you, wait be patient we'll go up fast, sit tight.

[Edit]
Blood suckers -- volavka, 06:49:23 11/06/03 Thu

More death and destruction by debt.

Fraud.

Winners,lawyers
Losers, everyone else.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3245969.stm

[Edit]
@Flinter, et al -- dotti, 06:47:48 11/06/03 Thu

Good Morning, All.

Flinter, my take on disinformation is that it makes the truth unknowable. Sometimes I have disturbing dreams where someone is talking, but I cannot understand what they are saying. Or I am reading something, but I cannot tell what the words are.

Because I cannot trust public figures to be truthful, I cannot form valid opinions. How can I support opinions if I do not have facts that I can rely upon. Even the people who are basically trustworthy are lied to, then they are the purveyors of lies.

I am in the process of trying to construct a reply to my eldest brother who says that it was his understanding that the gold standard and its restrictions were partially responsible for the Great Depression. Any help would be appreciated. I do not have lots of time to spend on it--another show starting tonight--but I enjoy the mental stimulation of such--plus, it would be nice to be able to impress my big brother!

People trusted Walter Cronkite, but I think he was just another shill for the PTB--knowingly or not.

Okay. Off to work.

Take care, All.

dotti

PS: volavka, are you sure that today is the day??? I'm ready!

[Edit]
the mural -- Flinter, 03:43:02 11/06/03 Thu

Disinformation tries to hide what is black.

At first, it does so by convincing people that it is white.

But painting black to white is difficult.

When that can no longer be done, it "paints" the white (and the various shades of gray) black.

In fact, it paints the whole mural black.

Convenient, since it can appear "honest"...for in doing so...hasn't it honestly painted the black...black?

Flinter

[Edit]
Guess who's coming for tea . . . -- Ag_Eagle, 00:44:26 11/06/03 Thu

Fair use snips from Iraqwar.ru

Syrian Ministry spokeswoman Bushra Kanfani told the London-based Asharq al-Awsat newspaper that Damascus was "not optimistic" [political speak] about U.S.-Syrian ties in the short term and urged Washington to engage in dialogue instead of "making demands".

Last week, Washington demanded after a string of deadly suicide attacks that Syria — which it calls a sponsor of “terrorism” — should stop foreign militants from entering Iraq

But Kanfani said:“The problem is America, not Syria. America must be more objective, because when it entered Iraq there was no terrorism and now there is the problem of terrorism and of al-Qaida and the matter has changed from one of weapons of mass destruction and toppling a regime to a new one of terrorism,” “America must accept the reality that it is no longer in its interest to continue this way in Iraq...

Kanfani said the short-term outlook for U.S.-Syrian ties "was not one for optimism", “especially during a (U.S.) election year.” “The problem is there is no objective and fruitful dialogue... The issue is not for America to come with a list of demands, but for us to sit and talk objectively far away from dictates to reach common grounds. This is what we ask for.” Kanfani said Syria would defend itself if Israel launched a repeat attack, but did not elaborate. “If the attack is repeated we have the right to legitimate self-defense by every means,” she said.

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=25528&lang=en

[Edit]
midas -- qwerty, 23:44:37 11/05/03 Wed


bill murphy posted this on mineweb comment

November 4 - Gold $379.20 up $2.80 - Silver $5.02 up 13 cents

Blanchard Suit Against JP Morgan Chase and Barrick Going to Discovery!!

"If you want to get somewhere you have to know where you want to go and how to get there. Then never, never, never give up."
Norman Vincent Peale

Gold was all over the place during the Comex trading session. It opened very firm and made a beeline for $380. The Gold Cartel stopped it cold. Twice more gold shot up over $380, only to be repelled.

While gold only recaptured a portion of yesterday’s losses, the price action was very constructive. Rarely does bullion ever go straight back up after a licking like it took yesterday. The big news is significant physical buying is surfacing all over the place. See these two stories:

Sydney, Nov. 4 (Dow Jones) - Spot gold posted modest gains Tuesday in Asia, supported by thin physical demand and sporadic Japanese buying in the afternoon, traders said. Nonetheless, market participants said volume remained light as Japanese players made a tentative return from their long weekend. "The market is really very quiet, with mainly small physical buying," said a Sydney-based trader.

Indeed, he was one of several sources who said the increasingly nervous gold market was finding support at lower prices from physical buying interest around the region and elsewhere. "We see physical demand providing support at US$376, with a breach of this (level) seeing US$367-US$365 as the next levels," added ABN AMRO. Others cited initial support at US$375, followed by a further layer near US$365.. –END-

Gold Futures Rise in Asian Trading, Helped by Buying From China

Nov. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Gold for December delivery in New York rose in Asian trading, helped by buying from China, halting yesterday's decline, when the benchmark contract had its biggest drop in a month because of a rise in the U.S. dollar……

``We saw some bargain-hunting in Asia; a lot of that from mainland China,'' where buyers have been more active over the past year, said Gregory Fan, a precious metals trader at N.M. Rothschild & Sons in Hong Kong. –END-

I can’t recall seeing "mainland China" mentioned before in a news service story on gold. Wonderful to see it in print, especially since it tends to confirm The Stalker (thought to be a Chinese buyer) news brought to your attention for weeks/months now. That the Chinese are buying in size at these relatively elevated levels is VERY constructive. It also confirms what John Brimelow and I have been saying for an awful long time. The gold market is about the physical market versus The Gold Cartel. Other issues are important, but secondary. When the physical market overpowers the corrupt cabal, gold will fly. But first the bad guys must be beaten.

Yesterday’s gold open interest fell 7236 contracts to 260,283.

Because the gold market is still manipulated, predicting the short-term is extremely difficult. However, it seems to me forces are coming together that make it likely we will get a price explosion in the near future. The cash market is on fire with buying surfacing all over the world. The Iraq War situation is a disaster and worsening. The longer term Iraq implications for the US, our reputation, and budget deficits are bleak. The US stock market has been going up all year. Complacency is extraordinarily high, even as the most successful investors of all time say get out, as do executive insiders. The dollar has been weak, but rallied of late. The odds of the Iraq War worsening, the stock market falling sharply and the dollar swooning are very high. With the physical market so firm, gold could soar at any time. The Gold Cartel ought to be overwhelmed.

Silver’s rebound was impressive. Seeing it close above $5 is a big psychological plus.

The John Brimelow Report

Tuesday, November 04, 2003


Indian ex-duty premiums: AM $8.60, PM $$7.81, with world gold at $377 and $378.50. High: well above legal import levels. This is basis Bombay, but all Indian reporting points are comfortably in legal import territory. The Bombay Stock Exchange hit another 43 month high today: October is reported to have seen the largest inflow of foreign portfolio investment into India since this was permitted a decade ago. The world’s largest gold importer continues to prosper.

A number of commentaries note an upswing in physical offtake because of lower prices, including one on Reuters which says

"In Singapore, the etrepot for much of the bullion trade in Southeast Asia, a steady demand for gold especially from neighbouring Indonesia helped bullion bars stay at a premium of 10 U.S. cents, down from 30 cents two weeks ago. Indonesia…has been importing up to four tonnes of gold bars daily in the past few weeks, up from one tonne on a normal day.."
(JB emphasis)

(Indonesia is benefiting from a tropical product price surge, notably for Rubber.) Anomalously, this same story reports that bar premiums in Hong Kong have turned negative, (which is the aspect Reuters chooses to headline), but this seem likely to be outdated. The Shanghai Gold Exchange indicates the highest premiums today since mid October, and Bloomberg quotes a Rothschild source in Hong Kong reporting

"some bargain-hunting…a lot of that from mainland China"

Not unreasonably, TOCOM remains totally unimpressed. Volume dropped 34% from Friday to the equivalent of 20,850 Comex lots, with open interest slipping by 708 Comex; the active contract was down 14 yen. Gold did edge up 30c from the NY close. Without a down trending yen, or at least a firmly up trending $US gold price, Japanese commodity traders have little reason to be involved. (NY on Friday traded 50,386 contracts, with open interest adding 386 lots; yesterday’s volume was estimated at 53,000 lots.)

Western Hemisphere dealers, however, are impressed – with the ferocity of yesterday’s raid in NY. The fact it was a raid, and not a simple response to the dollar, is underlined by the silver comment from UBS:

"Silver came under pressure immediately after the open as one US bank hunted down stops. After dipping below $5.00 for the first time, silver bounced a couple of cents…but good offers continued to weigh over the market. When gold was sold off, silver followed triggered a lot of stops and then gapped lower from $4.96 to $4.93 …"
(JB emphasis)

ScotiaMocatta’s account:

"Gold initially traded up to 384.80/385.20 where dealer offering in front of 385.00 capped the rise…The weaker EURO …convinced funds to sell gold. Resting stop loss orders were triggered once 380.00 was broken, sending the metal into a free fall. Gold fell to a session low of 376.20/376.60 where…physical buying was able to lift gold back near 379.00 before funds came in and sold once again, forcing the metal to finish 376.70/377.10."

This emphasis on "fund" and "local" selling is probably more realistic that the wire services’ emphasis on long liquidation.

With today’s announcement from the ECB that a subordinate Central Bank sold 5 tonnes last week adding to the indication yesterday from the Swiss National Bank that it sold a larger-than –usual 9-10 tonnes in the same period, a picture is emerging of heavily accelerated Central Bank selling as gold approaches $390. Doubtless what has been reported is only the Iceberg top. With this knowledge, predator funds are no doubt emboldened in launching their characteristically violent and technically-gauged blows at the market. Dollar fluctuations are only indirectly involved. No wonder the Dealers are nervous.

And fathers of Indian brides, vintage late 2003, much happier.

JB

CARTEL CAPITULATION WATCH

The stock market likes flying at these levels, only dropping back slightly. The DOW fell 20 to 9839 and the DOG dropped 10 to 1958.

The dollar setback to 93.45, down .42. The euro, still way off its highs, rose to 114.88, up .41.

GATA’s Mike Bolser:


Hi Bill:
The Fed added $4 Billion in repurchase agreements today, November 4th 2003.

This action dropped the repo pool a bit down to $28.72. The maneuver continues to suggest that the Fed desires the DOW to pull back down to its 30-day moving average (running a little above 9600).

At this hour (11AM EST), the DOW tracks down a bit at 9850. The pattern is remarkably similar to last week when the DOW retraced to its moving average at the end of the week and then popped back up 200 points above its ma. Based only upon the repo metric I expect another retreat in the DOW this week back down to 9600 by week's end.

A confirmation of this will come early tomorrow when we get a look at the repo pool. If it has dipped down to say, $24 Billion with a nominal add by the Fed, we will have a good clue that the primary dealers have been given their marching orders to sell index futures and we will see the DOW begin to retreat back to 9650 or so.

Looking forward

It is difficult to imagine a scenario in which the Fed will allow the DOW to enter a crash mode. However, there may be a period of deliberate DOW retreat created for the purpose of extracting capital gains taxation. Opportunistically, the Fed will probably continue to use its falsified DOW gains to mask its interventional weaknesses elsewhere.

A rising gold price and gold equities would qualify. So don't be surprised if, at some point in the future, we see both the DOW and the HUI running parallel in steep upward trajectories (from their current levels).
Mike

More from Mike:
The gold cartel counter-attacked on Friday and especially Monday and today. The resulting DIVG slipped a bit but not back to the key level of 323.

John Brimelow's wonderful intelligence tells us that huge Far East (Malaysia) volume buy orders are countering the cartel's selling. This spells bad news for those Fed and Treasury prancing princes who imagine they have plenty of bullion left. They have only as much as the East allows them have.

Of interest is the long term 200 day moving average for the EIVG. It clearly is in a sustained ramp phase upwards with no sign of relenting. Since July 2001 there have only been a few days when the EIVG fell to touch its 200 ma while the DIVG spent many weeks under its own 200 day moving average.

This pattern needs much more thought but the superficial interpretation is that the absolute value of currency-adjusted bullion denominated in Euros is rising while bullion denominated in dollars has leveled off near DIVG = 323. This condition clearly favors European Central banks and I suspect it is not an accident.
Mike


Chuck checks in:

Bill:
Not much to add over the past couple of days. I have just a strong reminder. Keep your focus on the large picture. We have entered a spectacular cycle for gold and against the paper assets area. So many people lose money or, at least, don't make much even in a bull market such as we have had so far in gold is that they are looking at the blips and scare out easily.

If you have been holding gold shares for the past couple of years, and have not had some terrific winners, then you should take a service check on your emotions. Again, I repeat--most investors make the mistake of buying when a stock is flying, gapping up and is heavily traded. Conversely, they tend to sell after their stocks have fallen and are in an emotional area when they are, in actuality, making a bottom. That is why Bill and myself have been trying to encourage you strongly not to trade in and out of the shares. Just the fact that you do this will prevent you from benefiting from this move.

Now, today had the feel of something that follows a couple of days of manipulation by the paper asset forces. Their job is to try to keep you guessing if the move is over or about to be aborted again. In the spiritual world, Satan has the same strategy. He knows he has been defeated at the cross 2000 years ago, but he is forever buying time through deception and manipulation. It is no different here in the material realm.

For instance, notice that gold sold off by over $6 yesterday. Bill has made it clear that there is an unspoken $6 rule that prevents gold from ever going up by more than that amount because it might signal that gold is in a major uptrend. It is the same psychology as why the market never seems to sell off especially at the end of a day. This represents a very unnatural market, for markets randomly move up and down at the opening and the close. They should gap down and they should once in a while sell off sharply at the close. But not this one. It gives the duped public and media the sense of invincibility.

So we have a tale of two markets, one that keeps scaring its believers (gold) and one that keeps its believers calm and very confident. Since these markets are diametrically opposite, there will be only one winner, the one that the mainstream financial complex and media ignores. In 1999 and early 2000, we had the sense that the market could never come down. Remember the 36,000 predictions. But the bubble burst, and this one is even worse because it now encompasses many other areas such as the bond market and the housing industry. It will not be gentle. But please keep your view on the big picture not on the little blips that are going to come. Remember that the period from November into February is an unusually good period for gold. Don't miss it! Chuck

More bad news for The Gold Cartel and their friends. It was thought by some well known bullion dealers that the strong price action and run-up in the gold price during the third quarter was due to heavy producer buy-backs, led by Barrick Gold.

Barrick announced no such thing during their quarterly press conference and now we learn the entire gold producer sector failed to cover any hedges at all on a net basis during the third quarter:

REUTERS Gold miners hedged in 3rd qtr, after 2-yr hiatus [DBFTGGF]


NEW YORK, Nov 4 (Reuters) - For the first time in almost two years, global gold companies in the third quarter were net forward sellers of gold, taking advantage of rising market prices to protect the value of unmined bullion, according to market research firm Gold Fields Mineral Services.

According to GFMS Managing Director Philip Klapwijk, gold miners collectively sold around 1 tonne of gold last quarter, after seven consecutive quarters of unusual net buying by producers to unwind hedges and benefit from the bull market in bullion.

Producer hedge buybacks played a significant role in gold's rally this year. Spot bullion hit a 7-year high at $393.30 an ounce on Sept. 25 and traded around $380 on Tuesday. Klapwijk was citing the results of the fourth Quarterly Gold Hedge Book Analysis, produced by GFMS on behalf of Investec, an international specialist banking group.

He told Reuters on the sidelines of a precious metals seminar sponsored by GFMS and the Silver Institute that the amount of gold hedged was less important than the change in profile of producers back to being net sellers.

A GFMS/Investec press release on Tuesday said the report states that the global hedge book, adjusted for options delta, was essentially unchanged from the second quarter at 71.6 million ounces (2,227 tonnes).

The nominal hedge position in fact declined by 3 percent, but was offset by a 4 percent rise in the delta-adjusted vanilla options hedge book, a change that was the result of a rise in the price of gold from quarter to quarter.

Many investors blamed the fall in gold prices to 20-year lows in 1999 partly on forward and options-related selling by producers. Since then gold companies have been under intense pressure by shareholders to reduce hedges or stop the practice altogether.

((Reporting by Alden Bentley; editing by Walter Bagley;
alden.bentley@reuters.com; Reuters Messaging:
alden.bentley.reuters.com@reuters.net; 646 223 6041))

GFMS is the pits – nothing more than a bullion dealer propaganda machine. The news is very bullish, but they spin it bearishly, construing it as a sign the gold producers could start hedging again and put pressure on the market.

OK, so gold shareholders are doing very well because the gold price is going up, thus certain gold producer CEO’s are going to stop those gains by starting to hedge again. Is that it? Then let’s see what individual gold producer CEO’s make those decisions. I can promise you whoever does so will face the wrath of GATA and a campaign to do what we can to cause a shareholder revolt. Who wants to be the next Barrick out there?

A gold producer CEO who is known to be instrumental in rejuvenating operations which killed gold share prices for so many years ought to be pilloried. Never have the gold fundamentals been so bullish. Any gold producer CEO who takes steps to bail out the sinister Gold Cartel should be taken to task and be subject to the sharpest criticism any executive can receive.

While nothing urgent, this does call for a GATA hedging alert in the months to come.

Speaking of Barrick and The Gold Cartel, this is the BIG NEWS of the day:

Blanchard and Company Lawsuit Versus Barrick Gold Corporation and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. to Move Into Discovery Phase [DBFSJWF]
/FROM PR NEWSWIRE DALLAS 888-776-3971/
TO BUSINESS AND LEGAL AFFAIRS EDITORS:

Blanchard and Company Lawsuit Versus Barrick Gold Corporation and J.P. Morgan
Chase & Co. to Move Into Discovery Phase

NEW ORLEANS, Nov. 4 /PRNewswire/ -- Blanchard and Company, Inc. received word today from the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana that its case against Barrick Gold Corporation (NYSE: ABX; Toronto) and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. (NYSE: JPM) once again may continue into the discovery phase of the lawsuit. The Court denied Defendants' Motions for Reconsideration of Judge Berrigan's September 3rd ruling. Blanchard's Complaint that Barrick and Morgan have violated U.S. antitrust laws by unlawfully combining to manipulate the price of gold and to monopolize the market in gold was brought in December of 2002.

In denying Defendants' Motions, the Court stated that, "Motions made pursuant to Rules 59(e) and 60(b) ... are not intended to relitigate issues properly before the Court when it issued the challenged ruling, or raise new facts or arguments that were not then before the Court ... This is what Defendants have attempted to do here. While the Defendants are understandably dissatisfied with a ruling not in their favor, this is neither the time nor method to raise these issues again."

Blanchard's CEO, Donald W. Doyle, Jr., stated that, "Barrick and Morgan appear to have lost the chance to delay the discovery phase of the case any further." Having already served J.P. Morgan and Barrick with its requests for production, Blanchard expects to move into the discovery process immediately.

-END-

More on the same:

REUTERS Court rejects Barrick request to rethink gold case [DBFTNMX]

VANCOUVER, British Columbia, Nov 4 (Reuters) - A U.S. court has denied a request from Barrick Gold Corp. , the world's No. 3 gold producer, that the court reconsider its ruling that an antitrust case against Barrick may go ahead, the plaintiff in the case said on Tuesday.

The plaintiff, Blanchard and Co., a New Orleans-based coin and bullion dealer, launched a suit against Barrick, as well as financial services giant J.P. Morgan Chase & Co Inc. , last December.

Blanchard alleged the two companies broke U.S. antitrust laws by colluding to rig the gold price and monopolize trading in bullion.

Toronto-based Barrick and J.P. Morgan tried to get the case thrown out but were unsuccessful. Barrick then tried in September to get the court to rethink its earlier ruling but this too has now failed. Barrick instead received a reprimand from the court.

"While the defendants are understandably dissatisfied with a ruling not in their favor, this is neither the time nor method to raise these issues again," Blanchard quoted the
latest judgment as saying.

Barrick was not immediately available for comment. It has previously called the civil action "utterly ridiculous".

Blanchard said the latest ruling meant the discovery phase of the lawsuit, in which both sides make available to each other documents relevant to the case, could now continue.

"Barrick and Morgan appear to have lost the chance to delay the discovery phase of the case any further," said Blanchard chief executive, Donald Doyle Jr.

((Reporting by Nicole Mordant, editing by Peter Galloway;
Reuters Messaging: nicole.mordant.reuters.com@reuters.net; +604
664 7315))

-END-

GATA’s Chris Powell sums up the importance of Blanchard’s victory in this GATA email dispatch:

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Blanchard & Co., the New Orleans-based coin and bullion dealer, announced today that the effort by Barrick Gold and J.P. Morgan Chase to delay the search for evidence in Blanchard's gold price-fixing lawsuit has failed and that the lawsuit now will move into what is called the discovery phase.

GATA has long believed that if such a lawsuit could only reach discovery and if the bullion banks and the big shorts in gold, Barrick foremost among them, could only be compelled to answer questions about their activity in the gold market, the collusion against gold would be exposed no matter how the lawsuit was decided.

So Blanchard's reaching the discovery phase is a huge victory for the gold cause, for which everyone in the gold community and everyone who supports free markets should be profoundly grateful.

--END-

Blanchard CEO Don Doyle attended the GATA reception in New Orleans on Saturday evening. He was most gracious, praising Reg Howe and GATA for our trailblazing efforts. We will be of any help we can to Blanchard in their lawsuit. It has been some week for the GATA camp,

Ah, for the day when The Gold Cartel gets theirs!

For the record, here is how Goldman Sachs predicted the gold price in February 2002:

Posted: 2002/04/09 Tue 19:39 | © Miningweb 1997-2002

JOHANNESBURG – US investment bank Goldman Sachs is the first in what is likely to become a stream of institutions taking a more bullish stance on gold. Goldman's said yesterday it had upgraded its price expectations for this year from $285 to $300 an ounce.

The bank expects gold to stay relatively flat at $300 an ounce until the end of next year, before ticking up to $325 an ounce in 2004. –END-

That’s The Gold Cartel for you. Wrong and deceitful. I won’t say inept (these guys are too smart), just crooked. They won’t ever be really bullish because their price-fixing operation is doing what it can to hold down the price. That’s the Goldman Sachs truth.

The night before Bill O’Reilly’s presentation at the New Orleans Investment Conference, I suggested to an old friend of mine to ask him a question about The Gold Cartel. I posited Mr. "No Spin Zone" of The O’Reilly Factor would duck the issue. Two others in attendance directed questions on the same subject. True to form, O’Reilly said he didn’t know anything about gold and refused to discuss it further. The windbag Irish hypocrite!

The gold shares came roaring back after yesterday’s drubbing. The XAU only gained .79 to 9678, but the HUI jumped 4.13 to 212.99, with a 214.40 high.

We are coming to the point when anything can happen to the gold price. One day it will explode out of nowhere.

GATA BE IN IT TO WIN IT!

MIDAS

[Edit]
beesting -- qwerty, 23:17:59 11/05/03 Wed

one more thing

are there any politicians or political parties talking about the

FRAUDULENT WAR ON TERRORISM

hardly a peep from ron paul

or anybody else

if that was exposed, we'd have a good chance in getting rid of the patriot act and securing 2nd amendment rights for sure

[Edit]
beesting -- qwerty, 21:53:25 11/05/03 Wed

>qwerty, please give your constructive opinion on exactly what you would do if you were a member of congress, everybody can't just run away and hide.


I would be focusing on

WTC 911 government lies and cover up

OKC bombing government lies and cover up

Gulf War Syndrome government lies and cover up

Manufactured wars

Planned economic demise of the middle class

NAFTA, FTAA

Abolition of Federal Reserve and return to backed money

Government & Corporate partnership in controlled media and disinformation system

I would oppose funding any security apparatus controlled by treasonous people

I would be speaking out every opportunity I had

the first two issue are the most critical since they are the MOST SENSITIVE ISSUES the elites and their frontmen have to contend with

if nobody in congress isn't talking about the first two issues, what does that tell ... it raisesw a lot of red flags ... where is ron paul ... he is ducking a lot of issues

where was congress and presidents after 1945 when rockefellers and morgan committed treason against the nation ... THEY WERE KEEPING REAL QUIET and focusing on hunting down the "communists" who were threatening the country ... hey, all we need to do is just replace the word "communist" with "terrorist" and we have a replay of history ... where were all the patriots in congress when rockefeller was put in charge of the CIA ... keeping real quiet and focusing on the "threat of communism" ...

his talk on the fiat currency is just enough to entertain people and keep them imagining he is for liberty

why don't you see the ducking of the issues by ron paul

whens he going to talk about them ... in some historical documentary 20 years from now

as far as gun issues ... there are many people in congress who will support the gun issues but in a big cognitive disconnect voted to destroy the constitution by voting for the patriot act ... their stand on the gun issues becomes irrelevant ...

why are you so blind to what ron paul is doing

you have low standards in what you will accept from politicians

ever wonder why they think their constituents are really dumb

[Edit]
Hoot with owls -- volavka, 19:12:26 11/05/03 Wed

or soar with eagles, access mkt time to run some stops.

[Edit]
qwerty....On Ron Paul -- beesting, 19:03:00 11/05/03 Wed

qwerty, my friend it would be "REAL" nice if you could distinguish the difference between how you formed your personal opinion[s] concerning an elected representitives voting record and opinions you seem to have grasped out of thin air.
It really sounds to me like you have your own agenda for putting down anybody and anything that happens to pop into your your mind.

I am 100% for constructive criticism as long as it is presented in a way where the reader can understand exactly how and why your conclusions were formed.
In my opinion to just take "Pot-Shots" at public figures because it may make you feel good to get something off your chest shows a real lack of character simply because the person on the recieving end of your insults will not defend his/her position here on a public forum and you know it!

Below are some of the congressional bills Rep. Ron Paul has recently sponsored or co-sponsored. Take a few weeks to read all this stuff and then you would be fully qualified to "sprout off" about what Ron Paul did or didn't do.......Have fun reading.
(SNIPS)
Bills Ron Paul sponsored for 107th congress(68):
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery

45. H.R.3732 : To amend title 31, United States Code, to limit the use by the President and the
Secretary of the Treasury of the Exchange Stabilization Fund to buy or sell gold without
congressional approval, and for other purposes.

61. H.R.5356 : To abolish the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal
reserve banks, to repeal the Federal Reserve Act, and for other purposes.

Bills Ron Paul sponsored for 108th congress(61):

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery

1. H.CON.RES.4 : Expressing the sense of the Congress that the United States should not rejoin the
United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO)

4. H.J.RES.15 : Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States relative to
abolishing personal income, estate, and gift taxes and prohibiting the United States Government from
engaging in business in competition with its citizens.

54. H.R.2783 : To restore Congress' constitutional role in international transactions involving the
Exchange Stabilization Fund, and to limit the amount of individual loans or credits that may be
provided to a foreign entity through that fund.

58. H.R.3125 : To protect the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.(The right to own guns)

Co-sponsor of bills 108th congress(253):

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery

17. H.R.31 : To nullify the recent pay increase and to eliminate automatic pay adjustments for
Members of Congress.

75. H.R.648 : To protect the right to obtain firearms for security, and to use firearms in defense of
self, family, or home, and to provide for the enforcement of such right.

Co-sponsor of bills for the 107th congress(323)

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery

6. H.CON.RES.263 : Expressing the sense of Congress that any Presidential candidate should be
permitted to participate in debates among candidates if at least 5 percent of respondents in national
public opinion polls of all eligible voters support the candidate's election for President or if a majority
of respondents in such polls support the candidate's participation in such debates.

34. H.R.105 : To require Congress and the President to fulfill their constitutional duty to take
personal responsibility for Federal laws.
(UNSNIPS)
qwerty, please give your constructive opinion on exactly what you would do if you were a member of congress, everybody can't just run away and hide.

........beesting.

[Edit]
remember catch 22 -- qwerty, 17:29:09 11/05/03 Wed

posted on kitco

===

1958--Iraq
In opposition to the British-client Iraqi regime, and in opposition also to Nasser's growing influence in Iraq, the bloodthirsty Colonel Kassem spearheads the American-supported military coup to overthrow the Iraqi royal family. The king and crown prince and most of the royal family are executed, and the prime minister is murdered by a mob. Years later, after Kassem has alienated all his allies except the Soviet Union and is overthrown and executed in 1963, United States support swings to a small group called the Ba'th Socialist Party. After many twists and turns, coups and elections, coups and revolutions, Saddam Hussein emerges as president of Iraq in 1976 after leading the coup that, with American insistence, installed that regime in 1968.

1980--Iraq
With the Islamic revolution in Iran, the U.S. tilts toward Iraq and Saddam Hussein as its proxy against the Iranians. Iraq and Hussein become America's front line in its attempt to crush the Islamic revolution in Iran. Armed and financed by Uncle Sam, Saddam invades Iran in 1980. The war would last for eight years and kill nearly a million people. Iraq is given advice and intelligence from the CIA and the Pentagon, and U.S. and British administrations provide Iraq with chemical and biological weapons-making knowledge and materiel to use against the Iranians. We all know how this turned out The U.S. turned on Saddam.

1991--Iraq & Kuwait
After the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, April Gillespie, informs Saddam that the U.S. would have no opinion on Iraq's occupation of its "nineteenth province," the U.S. seizes the opportunity to justify its post-cold war internationalism by dubbing Saddam the "new Hitler." After mass slaughter and defeat, crippling sanctions and daily bombardment follow to persuade the Iraqi people that perhaps they would be better off without Saddam. Other observers, however, believe that the sanctions exist to prop up the price of oil.


And we all know the shenanigans of Gulf War II

===

remember the movie catch 22 when they make a business deal with the germans and allow them to bomb them in exchange for cotton etc ...

they say to the american people that they are hunting for osama and saddam ... is that funny or what

isn't it curious that ayatollah khomeini was exiled in france ... a non muslim country ... how strange ... i doubt even the iranian citizenry could fathom the extent of the deception

i'll bet the NWO could install bushw as a muslim leader in iran and install the iranian leader as a christian president in the US ... the populations in general of both countries could probably be convinced that there is nothing improper or strange about it and accept it over time ...

[Edit]
Goldfather -- volavka, 14:25:34 11/05/03 Wed

Tomorrow is his day.

Gold will not look back now.

Sinclair will see his 400++++

Watch for limit move.

[Edit]
Omar -- Ag_Eagle, 12:44:14 11/05/03 Wed

OmarD thanks for that man, confirms what some of us have been hearing for some days now.

Anyway, this on Ms Rice for ya:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0311/S00049.htm

[Edit]
"Condi" ("Gagool") at work... -- OmarD, 12:30:15 11/05/03 Wed

http://www.middleeast.org/launch/redirect.cgi?num=48


BREAKING NEWS --- THE DAILY GRIND
Monday - November 3, 2003

UK - RED ALERT - U.S. Air Strike in the Middle East imminent? email received by The Grind on Monday at 10:50 am NYC time

Courtesy the Peacewatchers at USAFs Fairford and Welford bases in the UK

Since Saturday, people in the Highlands of Scotland have been witnessing large movements of US warplanes overhead. Experienced observers say the large numbers are reminiscent of those that preceded the bombing of Iraq in 1998 and military strikes on Libya in the1980's as well as the first Gulf War.

At the weekend warplanes were flying over at a rate of roughly one every 15 minutes. As well as watching them from the ground the plane spotters have also been able to overhear pilots talking by listening to their radio frequencies.

At this rate some 288 warplanes would have passed over Scotland in three days.

It is thought that the planes have flown on a route from the US over the north pole to bases in Europe and the Mediterranean. The size and scale of the movement suggests that the US may be preparing to strike at a country in the Middle East in the next week to ten days.

Please pass this information on as widely as possible- the US may be planning to use the pretext of "foreign" terrorist attacks on US personnelin Iraq to attack Iran or Syria. Please alert any sympathetic elected representatives, media representatives and other sympathetic organisations. Publicising this military movement may prevent the air-strikes.


----

The "tail is wagging..."

OmarD

"Blood! blood! blood!...

[Edit]
flinter -- qwerty, 11:11:06 11/05/03 Wed

one other thing that ron paul doesn't mention about regulations

it is the corporations who lobby for them

if one says regulations are anti-business then we really have businesses that are anti-business just like we have labor unions that are anti-union ... in the matrix, it makes complete sense

the very businesses who lobby for regulation aid and abet the politicians who speak out against regulations

most of the small business people live on the grid of the matrix so such contradictions don't register

[Edit]
fuzzy was he -- volavka, 11:00:22 11/05/03 Wed

was a worm,
a mighty worm was he.

upon the gold trac did HE LIE,
the train he did not see.

fuzzy was he was no more,
cause he used Da fuzzy math.

Bye-Bye Bush...

[Edit]
@volavka -- dotti, 10:59:29 11/05/03 Wed

applause!

[Edit]
flinter -- qwerty, 10:50:57 11/05/03 Wed

>I want to apologise to you, qwerty , for my 06:29:13.

no need to apologize

you say what you think

if someone wants to dump or whatever on me, that's fine

this is a forum where people will hopefully say what they think

it doesn't mean that what we say is set in cement for all eternity

there are times i think ... maybe i should have said things differently ... just be yourself, be frank and that is fine

what ever comes out, comes out ... sometimes we take crappers that we regret ...

i realize there are people who become perturbed at any criticism directed at them and especially for newbies but that may be like going swimming for the first time ... we just got to step in and adapt to it ... hardly even phases me

if people don't feel free to call me or anyone else a boolsheeter then we don't have a truly free and open discussion

i realize that ron paul is popular among people and i can understand that ... there is a desert of politicians to support and ron paul can sound very good at times ...

but the more pieces i put together of ron paul, the more i conclude he is a NWO guy ... if he votes for anymore money to fund homeland security - the gestapo - especially when he knows the okc bombing and the 911 attacks were inside jobs, he will show himself for what he is in big bold letters ... all those "anti-vietnam" congress people back in the 60's and 70's would do the same thing ... give a speeh opposing the war and then vote funding for it ... so many people never looked ... it was barry goldwater's vote which signalled the end of funding

ron paul was suppose to do something on the okc bombing report from keyes a couple years back but we haven't heard a peep ...

i haven't given a definitive writing in cement view of ron paul but if he supports any further homeland security funding, anyone still supporting him based on liberty is a POLITICAL CHUMP

what he said on regulation has been a mantra of NWO politicians fleecing the taxpayers pockets ... it gives most of the deluded citizenry a rationale of why they should be fecked up the ass again

being for or against regulations is a nebulous political stand

same with taxes ... it is a shell game

politicians have run on anti-tax stands but it has never done anything to lower taxes ... taxes is just a shell game in which they just shift the taxes over to somewhere else and people just gloss over such contradictions ...

the states that get the most federal dollars in returned taxes tend to be the very states where people are against govt spending and vice versa ... go figure

i use to hear a lot of anti tax political stand from people who would go out and vote for people who would tax them up the ying yang ... but they just closed their eyes to the contradiction ... it was like someone programmed them


politicians and political commentators who have the same mantra never explain away the boom that countries with enormous regulations, high taxes and stronger labor unions have and why they seem to prosper ... funny thing, people don't even step back and think about the cognitive disconnect between what they say and economic reality in this world

imagine "communist" china being a corporate paradise ... it seems like a contradiction but it isn't in the matrix

every country has some sort of economic revivals after they bottom out .... even bangaladesh to some degree ...

and when the US economy does have a revival of some sorts, people in the matrix will feel more happier and will like so many times before say "i support president _____ because he is good for the economy" ... so they support the very politicians who orchestrated their economic destruction in the first place ... it is a continuous loop

and if anyone has any delusions that things are going back to business as usual in US, one isn't looking at reality ...


people just have to wake up from the matrix and realize they are being fecked over by the very politicians that suppose to represent them ...

most of all, people need to disconnect from the financial and economic matrix and start asking questions and looking around

unless people do that, they will continue to just be like highly manipulated lab rats in a cage who imagine they are free and control their destinies in the matrix

[Edit]
The blue pill -- volavka, 10:45:16 11/05/03 Wed

Is viagra.

[Edit]
shorts -- volavka, 10:36:36 11/05/03 Wed

buy stops @ 388/389 then run for fun

[Edit]
short covering -- volavka, 09:54:37 11/05/03 Wed

going on, concern for LA. DC. and NY.

[Edit]
Silver - Butler -- Netking, 09:50:05 11/05/03 Wed

Making The Case By Theodore Butler

http://www.investmentrarities.com/11-04-03.html

Silverman, the day of reckoning, it cometh.

[Edit]
eu tariffs -- volavka, 08:35:39 11/05/03 Wed

gonna hit the dirt bags hard.
harleys and hoovers short'um.
dirt bags ride again..

[Edit]
"Gagool" speaks... -- OmarD, 08:28:24 11/05/03 Wed

"Blood! blood! blood! rivers of blood; blood everywhere. I see it, I smell it, I taste it--it is salt! it runs red upon the ground, it rains down from the skies.

"Footsteps! footsteps! footsteps! the tread of the white man coming from afar. It shakes the earth; the earth trembles before her master.

"Blood is good, the red blood is bright; there is no smell like the smell of new-shed blood. The lions shall lap it and roar, the vultures shall wash their wings in it and shriek with joy.



-"Gagool"


New "nightmares" on the way...

OmarD -



[Edit]
"Initial Shots Fired" -- OmarD, 08:15:25 11/05/03 Wed

BBC - Wednesday, 5 November, 2003, 12:46 GMT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3243423.stm




EU slaps $200m tariff on US imports


The EC is taking retaliatory measures against the US.
The EU has said US imports are to face duties of $200m (£120m) from March 2004.



Let the "games" begin. This administration in its arrogance and hubris thought it could ignore the repeated warnings and never have to face retaliatory tariffs, from its "perceived" economically weaker trading partners.

Current bills being considered only address removing our one-sided "protectionism" tariffs slowly over the next three years...well that "pig" is not going to fly now.

Again caught in trap of own making.

How long before markets figure out seriousness of this no-longer just a threat action by the EU (about by noon today I expect) - EU may see some pretty massive "dumping" before duties start to take effect.

No question another "war" in cards before next election...this time a "trade" war, which, of course is a no-win situation for Bush & Co. (not to mention the rest of us).


Rgds,

OmarD



PS: Increased "Bomber activity" (?)...while another confrontation can be anticipated...seems it is still too early to start before next November. Need some more time to spend that 87 bil$ on replenishing all that very expensive "smart" ("safe") weaponry that we used up destroying infrastructure and "goodwill" of Iraqi people (& Afgans as well)...

[Edit]
PeterA -- jomama, 08:07:27 11/05/03 Wed

The meaning of "jomama"?

What's in a name?

Ask some of ur friends of the black persuasion.
This would be easier for both of us.

The meaning is like looking at a fractal unfolding

...or not.

[Edit]
@qwerty apology -- Flinter, 08:02:58 11/05/03 Wed

I want to apologise to you, qwerty , for my 06:29:13.

You have the right to express whatever you wish, whatever motivates you. At least you interact actively, unlilke me.

Simply want to point out to the group your proclivity to paint the entire mural black.

Old dis-information trick... isn't it?

Anyhow, my sarcasm adds nothing of value.

Don't know what got into me.

Best,
Flinter

[Edit]
Re: Blue Pill -- dotti, 07:07:28 11/05/03 Wed

I have never seen The Matrix. Probably won't.

Why wouldn't you want to take the Blue Pill. Is Reality that great?

Take the Red Pill. Free us all to work and pay taxes.

Okay. I feel much better now.

Musin' along...
dotti

[Edit]
New chip design -- volavka, 06:56:31 11/05/03 Wed

Intel to report breakthrough in chip design.

Nanogold coming, if this sets the tone, the gold industry will rock...

[Edit]
Jomama -- volavka, 06:47:14 11/05/03 Wed

must be something like the sol food megican food combo restaurant, nachomama.

[Edit]
@qwerty && "boolsheeting" -- Flinter, 06:29:13 11/05/03 Wed

You know all about "boolsheeting", don't you, qwerty.

Flinter

[Edit]
ron paul is boolsheeting -- qwerty, 02:24:01 11/05/03 Wed

>This answer should send a clear message to every lawmaker in America: the taxes and regulations
imposed on American businesses are hurting economic growth and killing jobs.


ron paul is boolsheeting

just repeating what has been repeated the last 40 years

americans have been eating up such sheeeet for decades

germany has regulations up the ying yang for the last 50 years ... curiously, it hasn't dented their economic rise the past 50 years to make them one of the most prosperous countries on earth ... oh yeah, they are socialist economies ...

ron paul ought to start talking about how his fellow scumbags in congress were complicit in the conspiracy to downsize the american worker

why does ron think those work visa's were issued ... oh yeah, because there weren't enough hi tech workers to fill demand ... ROTFLMAO

the combination of outsourcing, allowing massive illegal alien flood and work visas had one goal of the agenda of downsizing the wages

let's see, if i was a big nasty corporation ... why would i go to china

... unions are outlawed in china

... strong police state in place to put down any worker uprising

... get workers at 61 cents an hour

does ron paul baby think any amount of deregulation will help ...



the only way i see out of things is ....

throw out ALL the politicians especially the dems and repubs at all levels - no exceptions - clean house

have americans disengage themselves from the financial matrix - deprogram themselves from all the brainwashing especially the economic paradigms

the economic problems are nothing more than an architected financial prison for most of the population


you know, providing most every man, women and child on this planet shelter, food, water, medical and transportation is easily doable but the elites and brainwashed citizens will never allow it

unless people wake up and realize the lack of abundance is artificially created, nothing will change ...

[Edit]
roger that, ag_eagle -- number six, 00:48:30 11/05/03 Wed

hearing the same thing from elsewhere.

[Edit]
jomama, 08:23:45 11/04/03 Tue -- PeterA, 23:42:50 11/04/03 Tue

“Anyone here remember the little woven-straw,
cylindrical-shaped thingy into which u inserted
ur two index fingers? U were then told to pull ur
hands apart to see if u could free ur fingers?”

Yup: It was called a “Chinese finger trap”

Prophetic, Yes? Like what do you count gold coins with?

BTW: What IS the meaning of “jomama”/
?

[Edit]
M.E. -- Ag_Eagle, 23:32:28 11/04/03 Tue

Sources suggest: "...unusually heavy US bomber and fighter air traffic on the move from US West Coast to Middle East via Scotland..."

[Edit]
A Short Snip From Ron Pauls Latest! -- beesting, 23:32:08 11/04/03 Tue

Hi Omar, Yes the times look like they are a changing.

From Ron Paul:

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2003/tst110303.htm

Recently, a prominent financial journalist visited with
businessmen who are launching new enterprises in China. When he asked them why they chose to
invest in China, they answered: “It is so much easier to start a business in China than in the United
States, especially in places like Massachusetts and California.”

This answer should send a clear message to every lawmaker in America: the taxes and regulations
imposed on American businesses are hurting economic growth and killing jobs. If we are serious
about creating jobs, we should be working on an aggressive agenda of cutting taxes and repealing
needless regulations. *****We should be working to adopt a stable, gold-backed dollar whose value is
determined by the market.***** We don’t need to bully our foreign competitors, we just need to stop
subsidizing them while releasing the regulatory and tax stranglehold on American businesses.
***************************************************
Reprinted under the Fair Use doctrine of
international copyright law.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

[Edit]
stratfor -- qwerty, 23:15:01 11/04/03 Tue

from stratfor

===
The coalition's constitutional prescription for Afghanistan appears to be similar to what it has planned for Iraq. The U.S.- led coalition plans to turn Afghanistan into an Islamic democracy; before the war began, the White House announced a similar vision for Iraq.

Efforts toward this goal in Iraq have hit a snag: Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites are demanding that Iraqis draft the constitution. A similar goal in Afghanistan is even more elusive, given the traditional understanding of Islam among most Afghans, which will stand in the way of a modernist rendition of Islamic politics in Kabul.

The problem lies in the U.S. line of thinking, which is predicated upon the notion that strong and sustained international support will legitimize Karzai. On the contrary, closer political and economic proximity to the West has reinforced many Afghans' perception that the government is a U.S. lackey.
===


problem with stratfor and why i distrust them ...

they maintain the matrix

they fail to even entertain the obvious question like ...

did the ones who planned the iraq and afganistan invasion really think some transition to an american architected government would succeed ....

there has been enough modern history to know that walking into those countries when the cultures are so different is bad news especially when religions are involved

what stratfor analysis misses is that - there was never any plan to "win the war" ... that doesn't preclude that they are creating an unofficial covert infrastructure to survive them after they leave ... but "winning the war" officially was never on the agenda ... there is enough expertise in the pentagon and cia to tell them the realities of those countries and what is not feasible

same thing happened in vietnam ...

the real benefits include

1) militarize US society
2) looting US taxpayer thru supposed defense spending


these are but two reason but more can be listed

by militarizing society, people become more obedient

also helps cover up the treason and corruption

without war, people would start to ask questions


many years ago, i may have been sucked in by stratfor but that type of analysis has worn thin ... they avoid digging deep into the layer of lies

i'm sure if they did an analysis of the presidential race, they would say the democrats are battling the republicans ... we know how fictitious that is

before the soviet union went into afghanistan, their intelligence and military experts told the upper echelon of political power to stay out - they went in - they knew they would lose

same thing happened in vietnam with US

wars are a psyops on the population ... they facilitate hidden agendas ... the real war's go on behind the scenes and covertly

i won't be surprised when the US sinks into oblivion - economically and eventually militarily

[Edit]
Current POG, POS, POP & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 23:10:49 11/04/03 Tue

US$/POGUS$/POSEURO/POGU$D




LbS/POG London Fix LbS/POS



PLAT
PALL


[Edit]
@Beesting - re: "Chronicles" -- OmarD, 23:01:30 11/04/03 Tue

Great find/post.

A battle is occuring that this country is woefully unprepared to fight. - One that I am afraid is already "lost."

We are being beaten at every turn while the current administration and most of populace wearing blinders to entire situation.

Less and less chance of any possible "salvation" or even gaining some kind of "bargining" position in future except with WMD's.

5 years from now there is little doubt in my mind that the common medium of exhange in this country (and elsewhere in world) is not going to be anything with U.S.A. stamped on it. Expect it will still say somewhere on it "In God We Trust" - but will not be in English...

Regards,

OmarD

PS: Just now wondering...do the words, "In God We Trust" maybe imply a "Warning"? - i.e. "trust" nothing/noone else? --- historically ironic if it turns out that the warning of the pitfalls of "fiat" have been carried about in pockets and wallets of every citizen of the nation since govt. first started producing the stuff... Om

[Edit]
Speaking of Lawsuits........... -- auspec, 18:05:43 11/04/03 Tue

Out of 2nite's MIDAS:

Speaking of Barrick and The Gold Cartel, this is the BIG NEWS of the day:

Blanchard and Company Lawsuit Versus Barrick Gold Corporation and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. to Move Into Discovery Phase [DBFSJWF]
/FROM PR NEWSWIRE DALLAS 888-776-3971/
TO BUSINESS AND LEGAL AFFAIRS EDITORS:

Blanchard and Company Lawsuit Versus Barrick Gold Corporation and J.P. Morgan
Chase & Co. to Move Into Discovery Phase

NEW ORLEANS, Nov. 4 /PRNewswire/ -- Blanchard and Company, Inc. received word today from the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana that its case against Barrick Gold Corporation (NYSE: ABX; Toronto) and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. (NYSE: JPM) once again may continue into the discovery phase of the lawsuit. The Court denied Defendants' Motions for Reconsideration of Judge Berrigan's September 3rd ruling. Blanchard's Complaint that Barrick and Morgan have violated U.S. antitrust laws by unlawfully combining to manipulate the price of gold and to monopolize the market in gold was brought in December of 2002.

In denying Defendants' Motions, the Court stated that, "Motions made pursuant to Rules 59(e) and 60(b) ... are not intended to relitigate issues properly before the Court when it issued the challenged ruling, or raise new facts or arguments that were not then before the Court ... This is what Defendants have attempted to do here. While the Defendants are understandably dissatisfied with a ruling not in their favor, this is neither the time nor method to raise these issues again."

Blanchard's CEO, Donald W. Doyle, Jr., stated that, "Barrick and Morgan appear to have lost the chance to delay the discovery phase of the case any further." Having already served J.P. Morgan and Barrick with its requests for production, Blanchard expects to move into the discovery process immediately.

-END-

More on the same:

REUTERS Court rejects Barrick request to rethink gold case [DBFTNMX]

VANCOUVER, British Columbia, Nov 4 (Reuters) - A U.S. court has denied a request from Barrick Gold Corp. , the world's No. 3 gold producer, that the court reconsider its ruling that an antitrust case against Barrick may go ahead, the plaintiff in the case said on Tuesday.

The plaintiff, Blanchard and Co., a New Orleans-based coin and bullion dealer, launched a suit against Barrick, as well as financial services giant J.P. Morgan Chase & Co Inc. , last December.

Blanchard alleged the two companies broke U.S. antitrust laws by colluding to rig the gold price and monopolize trading in bullion.

Toronto-based Barrick and J.P. Morgan tried to get the case thrown out but were unsuccessful. Barrick then tried in September to get the court to rethink its earlier ruling but this too has now failed. Barrick instead received a reprimand from the court.

"While the defendants are understandably dissatisfied with a ruling not in their favor, this is neither the time nor method to raise these issues again," Blanchard quoted the
latest judgment as saying.

Barrick was not immediately available for comment. It has previously called the civil action "utterly ridiculous".

Blanchard said the latest ruling meant the discovery phase of the lawsuit, in which both sides make available to each other documents relevant to the case, could now continue.

"Barrick and Morgan appear to have lost the chance to delay the discovery phase of the case any further," said Blanchard chief executive, Donald Doyle Jr.

((Reporting by Nicole Mordant, editing by Peter Galloway;
Reuters Messaging: nicole.mordant.reuters.com@reuters.net; +604
664 7315))

END
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Copyright permission.

This will prove interesting to say the very least....

[Edit]
#6 re IMA -- auspec, 17:51:58 11/04/03 Tue

Quite the silver story for sure and I am a real recent shareholder after spending a little time w the company representatives in N.O.. It WILL become a mine just simply a matter of how large it will be.

We were with a geologist with 40 M ounces of gold to his personal 'credit'. Not too shabby, and he could also pick a fine bottle of wine..........in this case from Washington Stare. This man liked the project a great deal after spending quite a lot of time with them.

Interesting how their were rocks stacked up around a fencepost in a barren area and these rocks had huge amounts of silver showing {at least showing to a somewhat trained eye}. Thus the discovery inan area w/o extensive previous exploration.

IF this pans out as some think it will........it will become the largest primary silver mine in world history. The "anomoly" to be drilled that everyone expects to be rich in silver will be the key. Crank up the truth machines.

Ballad Gold & Silver also came out of the IMA stable of properties. "Argentina" means what............?? Smile. Now, if this baby hits we must simply remember how long it takes to bring a silver mine into production. They would have to really fast track it to open in less than 5 years.

We also have MAG Silver which is drilling in Mexico near the Fresnillo property of Industrias Penoles. Fresnillo is the world's current richest silver mine I'm told and similar trending anomolies extend onto MAG land. Not real shabby there either.

I got to speak a good bit with Peter McGaw who is the exploration geologist for Excellon, also readying for drills in Mexico {raising $}. He's an expert on skarn replacement type deposits and also has had a great deal to do w MAG. The ore found to date at Platosa by EXN is in the $600 range............small scale historic production as well. Peter believes he's going to find the major feeder that has created the ore found to date. Geological signs tell him he's in the distal area from the source. Point is there is potential for up to a $1B oz silver lead zinc deposit. That is a speculative statement but also why I have owned this stock for so long. Given time and money to drill they should track this down.

Speaking of lawsuits..........Farallon, with a massive silver property in Mexico has been hog tied by a frivilous suit for 4 or longer years. It was dismissed a couple years ago but some technicality remains. The stock is trading higher so it may very well be that they once again control their own destiny. I actually bought IMA in a lower range because of the current suit. No one I've heard talk believes there's merit to this suit. I was also told the Plaintiff has even sued his own Father..........who knows for sure, but stranger things have happened. Lawsuits certainly can make one nervous for sure.

Am rooting for a feliz Navidad for sure. I also have a friend who may be helping to bring out MORE new companies out of the "Land of Silver"...........

It is IMR.V and it IS speculative. Jason Hommel will miss many moonshots if he looks past nothing besides proven ounces and market caps. Navidad will possibly end up being the world's low cost producer.

[Edit]
somebody said -- volavka, 17:18:36 11/04/03 Tue

copper was going to 1.00
http://charts3.barchart.com/chart.asp?sym=HGZ3&data=A&jav=adv&vol=Y&evnt=adv&grid=Y&code=BSTK&org=stk&fix=

[Edit]
jacob rothschild -- qwerty, 16:46:07 11/04/03 Tue

===

LONDON (Agence France-Presse) - Control of Mikhail Khodorkovsky's shares in the Russian oil giant Yukos have passed to renowned banker Jacob Rothschild, under a deal they concluded prior to Mr. Khodorkovsky's arrest, the Sunday Times reported.

The two have known each other for years "through their mutual love of the arts" and their positions as directors of the Open Russia Foundation, Yukos' philanthropic branch, it said.


===

it's a real cozy world for the criminals running this planet

anyway to beam khodorkovsky and rothschild to pluto ...

[Edit]
number 6 -- Netking, 15:56:09 11/04/03 Tue

Yep, MMNOA's will be hard to look past for Moi, silver reserves [at home] look to be "in excess" on 100Moz [rather than in the 40's Moz]....NGG[46%] appears to be bigger than texas [pardon the pun]. . . factor in a 1980 POS and we've got some math that frigtens any share price...

[Edit]
there's only one silver stock. -- number six, 15:13:15 11/04/03 Tue

I feel a bit dodgy about touting stocks here which, regardless of their merits, I've just bought & which I want to flip for a big trade. So I thought I'd tout my favourite stock, which I wish would not rise for a little while yet, ('cos I wanna buy some more,) and that is Ima exploration. Their drilling on the astounding Navidad silver project begins within weeks, so it's time for me to give my hardest sell to my friends here at eagle ranch.

I became a silver nut back when I became a y2k-nut, back in '98. (now there's a credibility-building opening line.) Learnt all about gold, silver, gata, Ted Butler, hubbert peaks, infrastructure, derivitives, Doug Nolan, terrorists, internet bubble, wmd, tsunamis, drooy, tinned food and the illuminati! So, they happened to catch me on an off day where I really wanted the computers to ironically destroy civilisation... so what? Doesn't everyone dream of that? :) Anyhow

The main thing I dragged out of all that was the silver... not in a million years of bludging did I expect to find and understand a get-rich-quick scheme, or even a get-rich-eventually scheme, with the unbeatable low-risk, high-reward logic of this silver market set-up. So after the proceeding 5 years of daily silver information, I would happily profess today to be something of a silver investment expert, like maybe quite a few people around here could.

I don't convince easily (anymore,) but I've long been convinced that silver comfortably beating it's 1980 highs is not an "if", but a "when". But, ever the sceptic of my own bullshit, (and after despairing of endgame,) I've actually found an out. If someone finds a multi-billion ounce silver deposit, then we might have to wait another whole decade for the silver mushroom cloud, and SSRI will go back to the low 1's where I left it. Now, this multi-billion ounce business hasn't happened since Potosi 4 or 5 hundred years ago, but that's why I'm getting all semi-biographical here.... I've found THE highlight of my silver years so far, which is ima.

They get me so hard, I don't know where to begin! :) Market cap is ~ US$56 fully diluted, (minus the $6 or so million cash that would come from that warrant dilution.) They've got $4 million in the bank, (some of it being spent on pre-drilling as we speak.) They're working in Argentina, although Vancouver-based. imr.v? and imxpf.ob. They have 37 pm exploration properties, all in very likely places. This is because their main geo guy was the boss of Argentinian mining and exploration and geology for 15 odd years. Taught all the Argy geologists at college, then hired them through the Argy military junta geo-mining whatzit department. Ima got him to pick a big bunch of real estate and staked it all.

They have 7 drill ready deposits, one with good drill results already, some with very good locations near major deposits. Barrick (yea yeah, boo hiss,) is a 10-15% shareholder, as is Tice's Prudent Bear fund. (Both of whom are excellent gold stock pickers.) They have a bunch of joint ventures going, and they are constantly written up by Jason Hommel (in his "back'o'the-table-napkin" analysis of silver stocks) as being the most expensive silver exploration stock there is! Now maybe this is because they haven't proven up any resources or reserves yet. But you know, sometimes there is a reason why things are expensive... usually because people want to buy them...? Well, some people you want to fade, & some you want to follow. Chet Idziszek, discoverer of the famous Barrick Eskay Creek gold-silver deposit, (every second bloody exploration company says they're looking for the "next Eskay Creek," unless they've maybe now moved onto "next Mongolian Oyu Tolgoi's"?) ...well, he has signed on to the company as a director since the discovery of Navidad, so if it's good enough for him, it's....etc. But anyhow, this is just the background on these guys, and why they're a bargain at anything under $30 mil, if such an unlikely day should come to pass.

All that is just the fluff, since they found what they stumbled across. Navidad. I don't know how to begin to describe it.

Basically, if you took the ten greatest silver drill prospects of the last decade and put them all in one spot, you'd probably still be better off with Navidad. I think they threaten the silver scene (-fellow Ted-heads,) with a multi-billion ounce discovery...that's how good I think they are. Now threats and realities are so very different, and that's the epistemological essence of the exploration game. But some threats are so undeniable, that the reality they foretell gets to looking unavoidable.

Anyhow, they tell their own story well @

http://www.imaexploration.com/agm2003/

it's a powerpoint thing with audio, so make sure you click that little button what makes the sound come out. The second guy is harder to hear over a computer, because he's got a latin accent & you know how their words role together. After that, it gets clearer.

Roughly, what have they got at Navidad? Roughly, it's a 6 km long mega-strong silver/lead soil anomaly (with grades so high you could mine it,) with stupendous gravity anomalies, outrageous ip anomalies, and 3 different types of mineralisation. There's mineralisation sticking right out of the ground, and it's $1000/ton mostly silver stuff, with grades up to 6% silver! These are the high-grade veins, which as a stand alone prospect should happily account for 1/2 of ima's market cap. There has to be SOME depth on these formations - I mean, they didn't fall from the sky. With any depth at all, you've got your money back. With geologically sensible depth, then I'm Will Cartwright, and you can be the big dopey one with the hat.

Well then there's the carapace breccia, which is another super-high grade type of mineralisation, which is probably fairly thin, but possibly very widespread. It weighs in somewhere around the $600/ton mark, mostly silver. I'll be suprised if there isn't at least a million tons of this stuff there. But I'm always ready to be shocked, I guess. They have large areas of this stuff sticking out as it is, who knows how much there is under the soil cover? Their geo model seems to suggest there'll be a lot of it, but I guess that's what models are programmed to say. ;) I tend to believe this one.

Then there's the disseminated mineralisation, which comes back to Earth with it's 4.5 oz silver and 9% lead. That is actually an awesome grade for a serious bulk-tonnage open pit prospect, but compared to everything else at Navidad, it's just so common! Actually, the grade's more than twice as good as Well-of-Soros and his Apex silver mine, (or Apex Zinc, as I disparagingly call it.) How many tons of this stuff will they find? I dare not guess. My guess? Lots. :) there's a lot sticking out at surface for starters.

Now apart from this, their geophysics results have been amazing, and have reinforced the overall model, plus suggested the whole system could be much larger than sane people would ever imagine. The corellation between one gravity anomaly and the high-grade gear is a nice tight fit. ("Dogs balls" gravity anomalies I heard them described as, as in, "they stick out like...") The IP anomaly is 1.6 x 1.3 km, and the astounding pole-dipole results seem to be saying that the anomaly runs from surface to over 300 metres depth. I haven't studied ore reserve estimation and geostatistics yet, but when I do the rough maths here it seems to say *~2 billion tons* of mineralisation! (presumeably it's mineralisation, they've eliminated all other known possibilities. Where the anomaly sticks out of the ground it is mineralisation.) I feel like a fool even saying that, but there it is. 2 billion. Now just what the grade might be, who knows. But there's amazing grades sticking out of the ground all over the place. Their lowest grade mineralization is $75/t, x (the preposterous figure of) 2 billion tons = how many dollars??? 1/100th of that would do just nicely.



They've got extra kilometres, extra soil anomalies, and possibly extra undercover flow-domes to explore, so they'll have a lot to keep them busy. But it wouldn't suprise me if there's material developments within the first few hours of drilling. They've also had some legal problems lately with some claimjumpers, but as far as I can tell that's a storm in a teacup. Still, it brought the price down nicely. Drilling very soon apparently.

All in all, I don't know whether to explain ima's Navidad as a "safe, sure-thing" type play, or as a "chance to make a million dollars" type play. Because I think it is both, and you just gotta check yourself when you find yourself thinking such things. For one thing, if they're as great as I think they are, then why isn't the price even higher? Why isn't everyone in the know buying like crazy? I guess nothing in life is a certainty, but this deposit is doing a pretty mean impression of one.

[Edit]
Un-Censored World News! -- beesting, 14:29:22 11/04/03 Tue

(Snip)
Click Here

War Against the Dollar, the Pillar of United States Power

Whatever happens, Washington can no longer backtrack.
In fact, the survival of the U.S. is menaced - not
by an external enemy, but by internal economic
weakness and tensions running between its
communities. Many are becoming conscious of the
fact that U.S. power is based upon a mirage, the
dollar. These are only pieces of paper, printed when
more are needed, while the rest of the world feels
obliged to use them.

For the past three years, Jacques Chirac and Gerhard
Schroder have engaged France and Germany in a
pitiless war against the United States. They have sent
emissaries world wide to convince other States to
convert their monetary reserves to euros. The first to
accept were Iran, Iraq and North Korea. Precisely the
countries described by George W. Bush as those of
the "axis of evil".

Meanwhile, Vladimir Putin has begun restoring the
economic independence of the Russian Federation. He
has reimbursed - ahead of time - the debts that Yeltsin
had contracted with the International Monetary Fund
and will also make an early repayment, before the end
of the year, of the remaining debts to the Club of Paris.

Putin has calmly announced that he plans State
control of the natural riches of his country. He has
reminded others that the oligarchs made their fortunes
overnight by appropriating, with the complicity of
Yeltsin, all that belonged to the U.S.S.R. and that the
State can demand the return of wealth which should
never have been handed over to the oligarchs.

When Gerhard Schroder visited Putin at the beginning
of October, Putin intimated that he would begin by
regaining control over Russian gas and petrol and that
he would convert their trading, now in dollars, to
euros.

On his part, the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahatir
Mohammad, has experimented with the abandonment
of the dollar in international exchanges, but in
order to replace it with gold. He has signed bilateral
agreements with his country's business partners.
Malaysian exports and imports will in future be traded
in gold.

Buoyed by this, he has suggested to the Islamic Bank
of Development a plan that would put an end to U.S.
dominance. Inspired by the Arab cartel which created
the oil shortage of 1974, he has outlined a decisive
monetary assault. The idea is to switch world petrol
trading to gold, thereby provoking the fall of the
dollar and the collapse of the U.S. economy.

At first, Saudi Arabia, menaced by Washington
neo-conservatives, was opposed to this plan, but
became agreable to it. The Islamic Bank of
Development presented the proposal at the summit
meeting of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference
(OIC) which was held recently in Malaya, presided
over by Dr. Mahatir Mohammad. It was agreed that
bilateral agreements for a transition to the gold
standard would be prepared between Islamic countries,
during the course of next year. At the next summit
meeting, to be held in Senegal, the fifty-seven
Member-States of the Islamic Conference would be
invited to sign a multilateral agreement.

Vladimir Putin who also attended the Islamic
Conference, since a large number of the citizens of the
Russian Federation are Muslims, encouraged the plan.

Abandoning the dollar presents a long and difficult
struggle, for Europe as well as for Muslim countries.
While an international campaign accusing Dr. Mahatir
Mohammed of ressuscitating anti-semitism has been
launched, Henry Kissinger and Condoleeza Rice
appealed to the oligarch, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, for
help in order to neutralise Putin. Last weekend,
however, Putin had him arrested and detained.

Whatever happens, the monetary war has been
declared. In the short-term, U.S. domination is
menaced.

Thierry Meyssan
Journalist, writer and President of Réseau Voltaire

http://www.reseauvoltaire.net
(Unsnip)
Reprinted under the Fair Use doctrine of
international copyright law.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

........beesting.

[Edit]
accordance with the law -- qwerty, 14:18:19 11/04/03 Tue

===
In an interview with Italian journalists that was posted on the Kremlin web site Tuesday, Putin said that while the results of privatization "weren't ideal," changing them would entail negative economic and social consequences.

"There will be no deprivatization or review of privatization results, but every one must learn to live in accordance with the law," he said.

===

another words, do as we say, not as we do ....

the powerful oligarchs, elites and government connected people remain above the law

the law is just meant for the powerless peons

Putin is also saying the massive theft of the russian resources by insiders has the blessing of the state

just like in america

any friction between the so called neocons and putin people is just a conflict among the criminals

the voters support the criminal political structure who in turns steals from the citizens en masse ... what a racket

[Edit]
re: jomama, 08:39:06 11/04/03 Tue -- OmarD, 14:17:18 11/04/03 Tue

"Fractals"

OmarD

[Edit]
netking -- number six, 13:12:15 11/04/03 Tue

Netking, yep there's a lot to like about Macmin - for a small outfit, they've got all the bases covered. Got ~40 mil ounces some of which are viable today, got some serious exploration potential, got plenty of extra low-grade silver thereabouts (i.e from some not-that-great drilling,) which will be worth something come the silver supernova, they've got gold with half of NGG (which isn't reflected in their market cap imho,) plus a bit of tgd and a bit of mal, plus they've got a new and excellent financing arrangement. And their market cap to ounce ratio is ok. Plus they're essentially the only listed pure-silver operation in a rich country that is rich in silver and has a big pm sector. The management has made all the right moves...practically a one man band sucessfully running 3 pm companies in 3 different countries, (four if you count Tasmania.) These are the sort of factors that Jason Hommel's analysis of silver stocks completely misses, when he just looks at the oz/mkt cap ratio.

Everything macmin have touched just lately seems to have turned to silver, so let's hope that continues through with their next drilling results. I actually don't own any macmin right now - feeling a bit naked because they were always my core holding. But I'm so amazed by imxpf.ob, I had to go balls out and bet big on the once in a lifetime opportunity I see them to be.

[Edit]
scrushy -- volavka, 12:23:19 11/04/03 Tue

He'll go horizontal

[Edit]
numero 6 -- netking, 11:50:45 11/04/03 Tue

ditto for Mac. with their 46% stake of NGG... recent drill results suggest new 4.5km mineral rich zone [showing promising g's/t]...gotta a warm fuzzy feeling 'bout that little co.

[Edit]
Tooth Doc -- volavka, 11:22:51 11/04/03 Tue

Ogen:

oral wash.
could have picked up @ 4.00 prior to wsj article last week.

[Edit]
#6 -- volavka, 11:20:16 11/04/03 Tue

I follow you, @ .04/.05 it's free and easy.

.15 a given and soon 1.00
Watch gold as she moves toward Christs Day.

[Edit]
volavka -- number six, 10:58:38 11/04/03 Tue

re apll, that isn't free silver, it's "easy" silver. It's the gold they're getting for free. Anyhow, it mearly depends on how you look at it.

[Edit]
Father of gold -- volavka, 10:20:32 11/04/03 Tue

birth day is 11-6.
We will try for a nice limit up day from today thru friday.

[Edit]
scrushy -- volavka, 10:18:16 11/04/03 Tue

Take it like a man, swan dive, forget the gas pipe.

[Edit]
Jomama -- volavka, 10:03:50 11/04/03 Tue

Sea food; ya the rear admiral saw sea food and sea shells, after he examined greenspans piles.

[Edit]
Iraq - Blueprint for a Mess -- www.iraqwar.ru, 09:56:19 11/04/03 Tue

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=25399&lang=en

In the streets of Baghdad today, Americans do not feel welcome. United States military personnel in the city are hunkered down behind acres of fencing and razor wire inside what was once Saddam Hussein's Republican Palace. When L. Paul Bremer III, head of the Coalition Provisional Authority, leaves the compound, he is always surrounded by bodyguards, carbines at the ready, and G.I.'s on patrol in the city's streets never let their hands stray far from the triggers of their machine guns or M-16 rifles. The official line from the White House and the Pentagon is that things in Baghdad and throughout Iraq are improving. But an average of 35 attacks are mounted each day on American forces inside Iraq by armed resisters of one kind or another, whom American commanders concede are operating with greater and greater sophistication.

[Edit]
makes me feel like seafood. -- number six, 09:28:26 11/04/03 Tue


[Edit]
How do u feel when u see this? -- jomama, 08:39:06 11/04/03 Tue



[Edit]
Some thoughts on the Blue Pill people -- jomama, 08:23:45 11/04/03 Tue

"Have you ever seen your bank account? It's not
there. Only the slight-of-hand practiced by the
teller and the accountant behind the scenes makes
this illusion look real to the blue pill people."

My version of the above:

"Have you ever seen your government? It's not
there. Only the slight-of-hand practiced by the
bureaucrat and the politician mouthing homilies
makes this illusion look real to the blue pill
people."

One notable difference here:

The bureaucrat/politician has access to the guns
to make u a believer...and a blank check in his
briefcase with ur name on it.

The banker has no such ulterior motives.

Have u ever had a banker push a gun in ur face
saying, "You WILL deposit in my bank" then throw
u in the slammer if u don't.

But the banker is still guilty. He'll turn u on
a dime when Uncle "wants to know all about u".

He loves the protection racket as much as
the enforcers...and a whole lotta others that
continue Their Dying Support. Yes, I see a few
people waking up.

We're all living in anarchy and so few see it.

An' whut's the sense in creating a new
"government" [illusion] or "taking ur country back"?

Whut makes u think it's gonna be urs if it never
was and isn't now?

If u think it'll ever be YOURS u need some
lessons in clear thinking instead of mouthing
platitudes u heard elsewhere...and worshipping
pieces of paper or some other silly-assed tribal
ritual.

Remember The Illusion above?

And starting a new political party is joining
the Matrix.

Start ur own game.

How to avoid the schmucks.

I've had a number of debates with the various
control freaks one meets here and there on the
net.

When u tell 'em ur gonna go grow tomatoes [or
whatever]somewhere far and away from Their Great
Experiment with the Lives of Others, smoke comes
outta their ears.

Control freaks need participants to survive.

Anyone here remember the little woven-straw,
cylindrical-shaped thingy into which u inserted
ur two index fingers? U were then told to pull ur
hands apart to see if u could free ur fingers?

The harder u pulled the tighter the device got
until u pushed ur index fingers toward each other.

Free at last.

Maybe Lao Tse was right: U fight something u
make it stronger.

Think about it.

[Edit]
free silver -- volavka, 07:37:58 11/04/03 Tue

apll
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/031104/059494.html

[Edit]
nano tech gold -- volavka, 07:14:56 11/04/03 Tue

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/04/wnan04.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/11/04/ixworld.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=22758

[Edit]
buyout -- volavka, 07:12:21 11/04/03 Tue

http://biz.yahoo.com/ccn/031103/b6c2b5260141054f01827a847b17dd36_1.html

[Edit]
another gift -- volavka, 07:09:27 11/04/03 Tue

Bitter root.

[Edit]
"Truth..." -- OmarD, 05:08:18 11/04/03 Tue

BBC - Monday, 3 November, 2003, 22:16 GMT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3237277.stm


"...Nearly 60% of Europeans said yes when asked in the Eurobarometer survey if Israel presents a threat to peace, putting it ahead of Iran, North Korea and the US, each of which polled 53%..."



---"Surprise," "Anti-Semitism," "Anti-Zionism,"- NO!

---"TRUTH" - YES!


OmarD



[Edit]
Posting's TimeClock Seems Incorrect.. -- Webmaster: Rex, 03:14:16 11/04/03 Tue

FWIW..

The previous message (CHARTs) I just posted at 01:56 hrs PST.

This Forum is supposed to be time-stamping as Pacific zone.

Yet it showed I posted it at O3:07

That's an absurdity, since the minutes don't even match.

So obviously, Voy.Com's server clock is totally inaccurate
and they need to set that correctly someday.

..Rx

[Edit]
Current POG, POS, POP & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 03:07:29 11/04/03 Tue

US$/POG: from www.kitco.comUS$/POS: from www.kitco.comEURO/POG: from www.kitco.com[Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]




LbS/POG: from www.kitco.com London Fix: from www.kitco.com LbS/POS: from www.kitco.com



US$/POP: from www.kitco.com
US$/POP: from www.kitco.com


[Edit]
Al Qaeda again threatens New York, Washington and Los Angeles -- Debka, 02:35:07 11/04/03 Tue

Fair use snip from www.debka.com

Monday, November 3, 2003

A new message was posted in the last few hours by the Jeddah-based al-Qaeda-linked Al-Islah (Reform) society calling on Muslims to flee New York, Washington and Los Angeles in advance of major al Qaeda attacks in those cities. This is revealed by DEBKAfile.

The message accuses the United States of predetermining its end (doom) by its policies. “The Jews rule the Pentagon by remote control and (are the cause) of Muslims being killed in every corner of the world. The United States should therefore expect more blows.”

The message is signed on behalf of the al Bayan (The Threat) movement by “your warrior brother, Abul Hassan al Khadrami”.

Our Muslim expert identifies the name of the signatory as belonging to a Yemeni from Hadhrameuth, the Bin Ladens’ place of origin where Osama enjoys substantial tribal support.

DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources stress that warnings appearing on these forums are taken both very seriously and with caution by the intelligence services keeping track of the terrorist network’s electronic traffic.

Last November, Jeddah-based fundamentalist forums addressed a message to an Al Qaeda member, saying whoever understands – understands; whoever knows, knows, but we are marching towards an operation that will take us to Paradise. Three days later, the Mombasa Paradise hotel was blown up killing 12 Kenyans and 3 Israelis and a failed shoulder-launched Strela anti-air missile missed an Israeli airliner at Mombasa airport.

[Edit]
Early Warning Report -- 6pack, 00:16:28 11/04/03 Tue

In Richard Maybury's Nov-Dec 2003 EWR:

* The primary way Washington acquires allies is by buying them
* Will George Bush be ordered to throw the election so that democrats get the blame for the Iraq war the way Nixon and the republicans were blamed for the Vietnam War?
* The only way the war can end is through a dramatic shift in Washtington's foreign policy.
* The federal deficit will continue out of control
* Why Washington's NATO allies offer only token help and secretly hope for a US debacle in Iraq.
* Bush has called for a devaluation of the dollar; this makes big profits in raw materials and foreign currencies highly likely.
* Why the Bush Doctrine makes serious inflation a near certainty.
* The lies and mistakes in the Iraq war damaged Washington's credibility so much that after almost 60 years, Germany is making its comeback on the world stage, jumping in to fill the vacuum left by Washington's vanishing influence
* Oh, yes, a 50-50 chance Bush will nuke someone in 2004.

Yep, 2004 will do anything but put y'all to sleep.

[Edit]
Gold to exceed "fringe" pricing? -- Goldus, 23:15:08 11/03/03 Mon

Because the Comex trades so little physical gold compared to LBMA, Dubai, etc it is in close contention for the title of "barbarous relic". Were it located anywhere else, it would by now have been encrusted in the financial septic system.
But now it accelerates around the rim of history's toilet bowl, towards it's long-sought, real and fair market place of honor, in tulip purgatory- The Royal Scatalogical Museum or Ripley's Financial Believe It or Not.
Perhaps then the British Pound will join the U.S. dollar in acquiring a modern makeover, manicure and suntan under the sultry lights of Bollywood, Monte Carlo or the French Riviera to become so properly compatible with the sweetheart starlet on the world stage- the Euro -consort of the king of currencies, gold. And revalued to be compatible with global BIS style, international plumbing standards. The more things change the more they stay the same.

[Edit]
cot -- qwerty, 18:00:55 11/03/03 Mon

===
sinclair ...
COT in their ego-driven arrogance expanded their short position to depress the gold price, disregarding the enormous loss their short position in gold represents.
===

i remember seeing a blip at sinclair's site saying dollar could go to 101 ... said gold could go down low around 357 to 367

if their going even more short then maybe they expect dollar to retest fibonacci support on the upper end which is within the realm of realistic possibilities

couldn't japan just print up a mountain of yen and feed it into the market

the europeans could come in with support for the dollar

i think they still have ways to manipuylate things although if dollar goes to 101, i would expect a lot of shorting of dollar at that point

even if the commer\

the other aspect is that the COT shorts will keep shorting it even over 400 or 450 ... can't imagine them doing any covering without causing a price explosion ...

as far as thie cost, they have already made a ton of money through out the years so could give some back as repayment for the inside information

they seem to have bank accounts with infinite amount of digits

although if the stalker makes a purchase ...

[Edit]
Mongolia -- volavka, 16:32:27 11/03/03 Mon

He who owns the gold rules....
Look @ ivanhoe and magr today. end of story.
magr drill results come in and this stock will rock.

[Edit]
The Flaw....Ref: auspec 17:47 Sun -- beesting, 12:30:05 11/03/03 Mon

I read and mostly understood the 2 piller goal outlined at:

http://www.afr.org/mission.html

The first piller,"USA must go back to Gold money", I agree with 100%, however the author may be a newbie when it comes to understanding exactly what would happen if the USA went back to a Gold standard.

This is what Ron Paul says about Goldmoney, page 325 of "The Ron Paul Money Book:
".....because we can't print Gold........limited government and sound money go together."

Hence, Ron Paul believes as I do that the eventual outcome of a Goldmoney system would be a much,much smaller government payroll, which would eventually lead to much,much, fewer taxes required to collect, and at the SAME time much more spendable income would go into the pockets of "The Producers of Wealth".

The second piller on the authors platform at:

http://www.afr.org/mission.html

Deals with a flat rate of taxation for all Americans.
Unfortunately he has been led to believe that taxation is a necessary evil. I disagree strongly! As I believe Ron Paul does also.

First of all lets point out that the USA operated quite well on the Gold standard where the only form of revenue was from tariffs and duties which would be added into shipping and handling charges on goods when going into transit for shipment, and arriving at American ports of entry.
Apparently this system worked quite well(before 1913) as the U.S. treasury could set the amounts of tariffs & duties to be collected,,,,,Very similar to what Mr. Greenspan & company do about setting interest rates today.(trying to regulate the U.S. dollar money supply)

The U.S. government, and local state and city and county governments already collects billions maybe trillions of paper dollars which are already included in the everyday goods and services Americans end up spending their money for.
Some examples:
1. Gasoline taxes.
2. Import taxes.
3. New telephone use taxes(check your next phone bill)
4. Licenses, fees, & permits for everything under the sun.
5. Real estate taxes.
6. sales taxes, etc. etc. etc. to infinity....
And the list goes on and on and on!!!

My friends the U.S. government[s] at all levels, has evolved into a giant behemoth octopus type entity which is still un-controlably growing, with probably over 100 million tentacles that continously suck the wealth produced from everyone and is now ingaged in actively trying to suck the wealth from other countries.

Lets speculate:
The real reason the USA has become aggressive internationally is to eventually COLLECT MORE REVENUE (wealth) from foriegn lands since the USA itself has reached its limit on creating enough wealth to pay its own bills and at the same time keep the dumbed down American citizens happy.
What do you think will happen when gvt. pensions and perks at all levels begin to slowly stop?
They already are at the state level, but who is getting hurt? Answer the poorest segment of society, handicapped,schoolchildren,elderly, etc. etc.

How was this monster created?
By using the U.S. paper dollars backed by debt and created and collected thru TAXATION at every government level.

Sooooo, in summary the second piller is not a way to end taxation and a constantly growing government because as the personal income tax is slowly lowered the government will simply add many,many more ""HIDDEN"" taxes in goods and services to make up for the short-fall.

I believe, as I believe Ron Paul does also, the only way out of the economic mess America has created for itself is to go back to a "SOUND" Gold monetary system.......However Dr. Paul also states in his book that there may be a terrible economic collapse of the U.S. dollar(because most Americans have been duped by TPTB) before a Gold monetary system will be re-instated once again.

Thanks For Reading..........beesting.

[Edit]
Dollar -- Netking, 11:58:54 11/03/03 Mon

inverse relationship to POG, no brainer.

[Edit]
volavka -- qwerty, 10:35:48 11/03/03 Mon

i say the cabal should just unload everything ...

i say feck the washington agreement ... each country unloads to their own delight

do a massive gold dump ... no more fecking around

[Edit]
dec stops -- volavka, 09:44:55 11/03/03 Mon

are @ 376/378, need to push off these and close back over 380.

[Edit]
Armstrong -- volavka, 09:17:31 11/03/03 Mon

sits while the scum walks.

[Edit]
Planting -- jomama, 08:57:33 11/03/03 Mon

Funny how ya kin plant a seed...and sometimes it sprouts.

re: Bitching about ur country.

Get over it.

Ain't none of 'em perfect.

Never will be.

But I'll bitch along with the best of 'em.

About any of 'em.

Dolts know no borders.

[Edit]
"Ramadan Mubarak!" -- OmarD, 08:40:23 11/03/03 Mon

Heard "read" last night during evening "Tarawi" Ramadan prayers...felt was worth "rebroadcasting" for some whom may "appreciate" here...


"Bissmilla Al'Rahman Al'Raheim"

Sura III. (Al-i-‘Imran ‘The Family of Imran’) (“Imran” – The father of Moses), verses 55-58

(Yousef Ali “Translation”)

55. Behold! God said:
“O Jesus! I will take thee
And raise thee to Myself
And clear thee (of all the falsehoods)
Of those who blaspheme;
I will make those
Who follow thee superior
To those who reject faith,
To the Day of Resurrection:
Then shall ye all
Return unto me,
And I will judge
Between you of the matters
Wherein ye dispute.”

56. “As to those who reject faith,
I will punish them
With terrible agony
In this world and in the Hereafter,
Nor will they have
Anyone to help.”

57. “As to those who believe
And work righteousness,
God will pay them (in full)
Their reward;
But God loveth not
Those who do wrong.”

58. “ This is what we rehearse
Unto thee of the Signs
And the message of Wisdom.”

59. “The similitude of Jesus
Before God is as that of Adam;
He created him from dust,
Then said to him: “BE”
And he was.”

------

All the controversies about dogma and faith will disappear when we appear before God. He will judge not by what we profess, but what we are.

Assallam allaykum,

OmarD



[Edit]
Gold should be -- volavka, 06:42:13 11/03/03 Mon

limit up right now, criminals rule in cowboy capitalism.

[Edit]
snake behind the tree -- volavka, 06:39:35 11/03/03 Mon

next time go for the head shot, 38 no good, get the 50 cal.

[Edit]
This was going on -- volavka, 06:03:38 11/03/03 Mon

Back in the 70s' certain floor traders would cover all spreads after mkts closed for a"stink" ( 1/16).

Only know does the stinking sec try to cover their dirty tracks.

The system is finished.
Mkts moving off shore.
U.S. banana note in land of puppets.
Matrix rules....

[Edit]
Current POG, POS, POP & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 04:18:03 11/03/03 Mon

US$/POG: from www.kitco.comUS$/POS: from www.kitco.comEURO/POG: from www.kitco.com[Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]




LbS/POG: from www.kitco.com London Fix: from www.kitco.com LbS/POS: from www.kitco.com



US$/POP: from www.kitco.com
US$/POP: from www.kitco.com


[Edit]
Don't offend your local American Embassy . . . -- Ag_Eagle, 01:29:01 11/03/03 Mon

Yep, a local was arrested on “misuse of a telephone” [to send an email] under the Telecommunications Act. The charge relates to an email sent to the US Embassy which contained political objections to the US invasion of Iraq.

The writers email contained some harsh truths for the American government whose attack on Iraq was immoral and illegal. The most recent analysis of deaths of Iraqi citizens puts the figure killed in the initial invasion at 15,000 with many more having been killed since.

It appears clear that the American embassy has pressured the police – possibly via the Minister of Police or Minister of Foreign Affairs - to put pressure on foreign activists who [to date] have been very effective in mobilising public opposition against American foreign policy . . . but the times, they may be a changing.

[Edit]
Periodic Ponzi Update PPU -- $hifty, 01:24:07 11/03/03 Mon

Ponzi Chart

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU

Nasdaq 1,932.21 + Dow 9,801.12 = 11,733.33 divide by 2 = 5,866.66 Ponzi

Up 142.64 from last week.

Thanks for the link RossL !

Go GATA !

Go Gold !

$hifty



[Edit]
THANKS MUCH Sir Auspec... -- OmarD, 23:04:54 11/02/03 Sun

Re: "Hultberg" & "AFR"

Finally a "cause" and people worthy of full support!

They certainly have all mine...sending some today...

Rgds,

OmarD




[Edit]
Wanted...................FIREBRANDS! -- auspec, 17:47:07 11/02/03 Sun

Here's another American Patriot.. Nelsom Hultberg & his "Sons of Liberty" piece {snippets}:

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/hultberg/2003/1022.html

Fair use copyright


Americans for a Free Republic (AFR) is now a reality, and we have a scintillating website up to spread our message. Our website is meant to be a RALLYING POINT around which all lovers of freedom throughout the world can coalesce. It is meant to be a revolutionary force that can gather together the talent, money, and ideas to challenge the black limousine crowd in Washington and finally end their monstrous Leviathan.

Visit our website http://www.afr.org and learn:

Why all political third parties fail.

How to correct the two major flaws that doom third parties to ineffectuality.

How our innovative strategy will dramatically revolutionize politics in America.

How gold money and equal tax rates are the weapons to bring this about.

How we can stop the growth of Big Government cold.

As noted above AFR's goal is educational; it is not to ACTUALLY FORM the Liberty Party. That will come later by the appropriate professionals and operatives skilled in such matters. We are only interested in educating people about the necessity of doing so along the lines of our innovative "two pillars strategy." We plan to build a massive constituency of prominent, influential, educated, rebellious Americans -- a vanguard to spread throughout the country, to do the actual selling of the idea of a Third Party based upon "gold money and equal tax rates." We wish to be the hub of the wheel that generates thousands of spokes (dedicated activists) that branch out and proselytize all the people in their respective spheres of influence.

Our site content is geared toward the intelligent reader and viewer. We don't wish to try and educate the masses. We wish to reach the intelligentsia of society, who then will sell their fellow intelligentsia. Once a sizeable portion of this group has been won over, the masses will follow.

Who are the intelligentsia? All those of you in this world who understand the power of ideas in the unfolding of history. You may be a teacher, a scholar, a pastor, an entrepreneur, a banker, a soldier, an artist, a publisher, a moviemaker, a laborer. But whatever your calling, the one common fabric you share is the understanding that ideas matter, that history moves toward the good because of RIGHT IDEAS, and that it moves toward evil because of WRONG IDEAS. It is fallacy and sophistry that are the main precursors to dictatorship.

This is the nature of all mass movements in history. This is how the American Revolution was launched. Only a small portion of the colonists were actually for independence from Britain at the time. But they were the intelligentsia -- influential, prominent, educated, and rebellious. They were leaders in their personal spheres of influence. Their cause began in the 1760's via Patrick Henry in Virginia along with Samuel Adams, John Hancock and the Sons of Liberty in Massachusetts. The Sons of Liberty got together every month or so in the local taverns of Boston, and then expanded their gathering in the early 1770's to Boston's famous Old South Meeting-house where thousands of fellow rebels joined to show their true colors to the Tories. Out of this came the Boston Tea Party in December of 1773, which led to Lexington and Concord -- "the shot heard around the world" -- and full-blown revolution. It was the Sons of Liberty acting as the hub of the wheel, and the intrepid spokes they established, that set the colonies on fire with the desire for independence from Britain. It was their provocative thinking and firebrand personalities that spread the idea of revolution throughout the land.

AFR hopes to become today's Sons of Liberty, to convince the American people to abandon the despotic Demopublican policies of PAPER MONEY and PROGRESSIVE TAXES -- to restore gold backing to our currency and eventually abolish all forms of income taxation. This is to be done through an innovative Third Party strategy that will force the enactment of radical monetary and tax reform. The New Sons of Liberty will come from every walk of life; but the inspiration that will bring them together will be their love of liberty and a resolute refusal to kowtow to the contemptible shams of Demopublicanism.

Actually AFR is not laying the groundwork for a Third Party, but for a Second Party. We mean to adamantly challenge the statist establishment in America (which is the one-party monopoly of Demopublicanism). There are several million potential AFR patriots out there -- highly intelligent and desirous of "doing the right thing" in life. All of these patriots are leaders in their workplaces, their communities, their churches, their myriad spheres of influence. Perhaps you the reader are one of them. AFR's goal is to convince you that the right thing to do is to withdraw your sanction of Gargantua's welfare state. Our website http://www.afr.org hopefully will become a modern version of Boston's Old South Meeting-house where all members of AFR can coalesce to renew their spirit, to use as a recruitment tool for others to join the fight just as the original Patriots did in the years leading up to 1776. Once the country's intelligentsia has been won over to our cause, then the masses will follow and the Demopublican regime will crumble like the Berlin Wall.

Oliver Wendell Holmes said that, "A man must become a part of the action and passion of his times, lest he be judged not to have lived." The goals of AFR will thrust its members squarely into the action and passion of our times, which we feel are destined to become the most tumultuous to descend upon our nation since its beginning. We seek the doers, the dissidents, the contrarians to join our hub and build a New Sons of Liberty for the 21st century. There are still numerous Berlin Walls to bring down.

We are far from a majority in America today, but as Samuel Adams told his fellows in 1773 in the build-up to the Boston Tea Party, "It does not take a majority to prevail...but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." Herein lies the goal of AFR. We intend to set brushfires of freedom throughout America. We intend to spread those brushfires until the flames and heat of resistance are so intense that Washington's tyrannical elites can no longer continue their usurpation of our rights. While the Clintons, Bushes, Rubins, Cheneys and Rumsfelds of today's America are different in method, they are basically the same in principle to Mikhail Gorbachev and Nicolae Ceausescu of yesterday's Russia and Romania. AFR intends to see that such Washington elites meet the same fate as their communist counterparts. While we do not intend to duplicate the Romanians treatment of Ceausescu, we certainly intend to duplicate the Russians' refutation of the weasel-tyrant Gorbachev. And we mean to extend such refutation to all future Demopublicans.

END

Comment: The Aaron Russo Presidential campaign Platform was announced by GATA in New Orleans this weekend. 12 points that free market and honest money advocates will applaud enthusiastically. To be put up at www.Russofor President.com in the near future.

[Edit]
How Hard Could it Be.........REALLY?! -- auspec, 16:59:58 11/02/03 Sun

The following snippet is from Alex Wallenwein's article at LeMet entitled "The Anti-Gold Camp's Last 'Big Guns'":

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

COMEX is "Overbought." Prices will Collapse.

Who cares about the COMEX, anymore? In a few years, COMEX will be utterly irrelevant to the world of gold, and its current price-discovery function will be a distant memory.

COMEX is to ninety-nine percent a cash-settlement market. That means that only one percent of COMEX plays are ever actually delivered in specie. That market will only survive as long as it remains lined-up with this secular bull-trend in gold. Should COMEX raise the margin requirements again a few more times, people seeking to trade real gold will simply go elsewhere, like, say, Dubai, for example. (The Euro vs Dollar Currency War Monitor's upcoming seventh issue has some surprising facts about the future of gold trading in the world. The price-setting function of gold trading will soon be performed in the physical market - and it likely won't happen in the United States, the way things are going.)

Right now, the COMEX is going up nicely, but that's mainly because the Arabs and Chinese are jabbing at the dollar. Sooner or later, COMEX will lose its relevance. Those CFTC guys had better look for a job somewhere!

END..............fair use copyright.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Look @ G-E for this article in its entirety soon. Once again, Wallenwein is CLEARLY an ANOTHER disciple if not an out and out Friend! The price setting mechanism for world gold only delivers 1% of the time!! Might just be time to hasten the demise of Comex gold and silver, ne? They can raise the margins as high as they want.........if you have the margin money and take delivery you get a world class paper gold price for real physical gold and your margin money back. This is gold as cheap as the "Stalker" is getting and you can do your countrymen a favor in the process, w/o a trip to London!

[Edit]
Richard Russell Sees Market Immoralities -- auspec, 16:15:23 11/02/03 Sun

From www.dailyreckoning.com fair use copyright:

The Daily Reckoning
Weekend Edition
01 November 2003, All Saints Day
New Orleans, Louisiana
By Addison Wiggin and Eric Fry


MARKET REVIEW: Russall Says – Gold To Reach $556

The Dow Jones Industrial Average put the finishing touches on
another winning month by advancing 2.3% last week to 9,80. The
Nasdaq performed even more brilliantly last week, gaining 3.6% to
1,932. October wasn't such a frightening month after all,
although it scared the daylights out of a few short-sellers.

The Dow and Nasdaq both defied the ghosts of Octobers past. "With
Halloween passed," remarked Barron's Michael Santoli, "the market
has made it through its toughest seasonal period unscathed.
September and October are historically the worst for stock
returns, but since the end of August the Dow is up 4.1% and the
Nasdaq ahead by 6.7%."

Meanwhile, the gold market is compiling an equally impressive
record, having advanced six out of the last seven months. The
yellow metal added only a dime during October, but has gained
more than $45 since the end of March.

The stock market and the gold market do not typically track
together. And it's a bit mysterious that they would be doing so
now. But their apparent synchronicity is more accidental than
indicative, according to Richard Russell, editor of The Dow
Theory Letters. As Russell sees it, the pricey stock market will
soon veer off into a ditch, while the gold market will continue
chugging along.

Russell, appearing via live video-feed from San Diego, told the
crowded auditorium of conference-goers in New Orleans that the
gold bull market is for real and that it is in its infancy. It's
bullish technical picture is a mirror image of the stock
market's, he explained.

To support of his assertions, Russell noted, "The S&P 500's
20-month moving average has crossed down through its 40-month
moving average, thereby indicating that stocks remain in a
primary bear market.

"But look at the picture in the gold market," Russell urged the
audience. "The picture is a mirror image of the stock market. The
20-month moving average of the gold price is crossing UP through
the 40-month moving average, which shows that gold is in a
primary bull market."

"Gold is now in the accumulation phase," he says. "Gold is moving
to strong hands from weak hands... $556 per ounce is the first
target."

Russell colored his dispassionate technical analysis with a bit
of macro-economic fire-and-brimstone. "The system of fiat money
is really immoral, almost evil. It will not last. Most of us will
live to see the complete destruction of the U.S. dollar," the
octogenarian stack market observer predicted. "When the dollar
collapses, all hell is gonna break loose in the system.
Regards,

Eric Fry,
The Daily Reckoning

END

Comment: Russell is to be commended for his boldness and discernment, same w the DR for reporting it.

[Edit]
Back @ the Ranch........The "Stalker", Sinclair, etc -- auspec, 15:25:13 11/02/03 Sun

I was told by a quite credible source that it is the LBMA where the "Stalker" is buying his $1B plus of gold and, of course, that makes perfect sense because London is where physical transactions occur for the most part. It was also confirmed that CRIMEX could NOT handle an order of this magnitude..........it would simply implode. YET, very few of those that fully comprehend this anomoly are willing to advocate the demand for physical delivery in massive size on Comex. "The time is not right" they say.

Meanwhile the paper price setting mechanism continues unabated and remains the center of attention of gold bugs' focus. Personally, I believe that now is EXACTLY the time to start the encouragement of physical demand for gold as well as silver on Crimex. Run it honest or shut it down! Do you want a free gold market or not?! This is the fulcrum of manipulated gold and it has a tremendous vulnerability at that exact same spot. THROW THE DAMN TEA INTO THE OCEAN RIGHT NOW!!

Silver would be even more vulnerable to physical demand than gold, because in reality, it is greatly scarcer {above ground}, in known quantities, than gold. I was told "It's a major hassle" to take delivery and "They make it very hard to take delivery"...........gee, I wonder why? In the end they have to put up or shut up........the rules state that it is the customers' rights to demand delivery. This process of demanding delivery, in size, by MANY unrelated parties is EXACTLY what is required. There is NO intent to "corner" a market when an army of unassociated "ants" DEMAND accountability on our national markets. The process needs to start ASAP in order to end the crooked markets ASAP. The longer we wait the longer we're held under their dishonest hands.

If a $1B order will "blow up" Crimex gold, how muich could it take to do the same for Crimex silver? A fraction of that amount for sure. How many individuals with a contract or several contracts? How many people that signed the recent petition on silver abuses would be willing to set up a futures account and demand delivery? Of course, not just anyone is allowed to trade in commodities or options, but that simply means that those that have these requirements must exercise them in size. {Hint, hint: it's a real cheap form of purchased silver}. Can anyone guess why it is not likely to be done by Ted Butler? Ah, yes, the economic compromises we make when we're associated with a coin and bullion sales company. I think Ted is fantastic and I read everything he writes, but I also believe there's a better way to end the manipulation he has so admirably documented. I hope these words do not offend, but I operate under the premise that the truth is {almost} always appropriate.

Why would the "Stalker" take gold off the London market? Probably because he really wants the gold and he wants it at Crimex paper prices even though its not available on Crimex. Fine with me...........thank you very much. Some in new Orleans this weekend speculated that Buffet is the buyer but it's much more likely dr Hwang or a fellow countryman of his. The "Stalker" has no interest in dismantling Crimex.........he's actually very grateful for it. The manipulation of silver and gold at Crimex hurts the average person MUCH worse than those with means. It has been an integral part of the "Strong Dollar policy" and the fleecing of the American populace through hedonic pricing and financial central planning. Those on a fixed income or without the means of "beating the system" are robbed the greatest.

I say a campaign to force honesty on Comex precious metals would only take about 6 months of prodding to be quite effective, if undertaken by credible and widely distributed sources. There is plenty of money being invested in related markets such as bullion, equities, etc, that if focused on COMEX would stop the fraud. Why should we continue to allow the micro-management of gold and silver, at the paper margin, with little correlation to underlying fundamentals?

Why does Jim Sinclair continue to coach his loyal subjects on how to win at the "Tea Tax" game when he should be simply dressing up as a native American and making a harbor full of salty tea? Sinclair is fighting yesterday's battles because that's what he knows best. Is it moral to participate in an immoral game just because one has exceptional skills therein? It's just a "chess game" to Sinclair, and he sees himself as the Grand Master, whereas, in reality, he IS only the Pied Piper of paper Gold as he sips freely from the tea of the King.

How many of you have heard that the Orange Juice market is controlled and not a good place to "play"? Maybe we could get Sinclair to explain to us, next, how to beat the OJ Cartel at its own game. Surely he's be up for that once he has enough golden Wizzards {Comets} up and trained. What's the difference? He's pretending this is an honest market, ne? Or is he? Who is pretending that Silver is an honest market? Ted Butler isn't..........he's documented exactly the opposite. Do you want to learn to play with the Big Boyz in O.J., Gold or Silver? Play in their game with their stacked decks? Sinclair will teach you how to count cards and Butler will proclaim that the game must be allowed to continue because it is a fine institution. Others say.......the time is not right, we really shouldn't strike where the point of vulnerability is obviously the greatest.

Butler says that Comex is such a fine American institution that it must be preserved. That's perfectly fine to keep it up and running IF it will fulfill its original purpose as an honest marketplace where users and producers meet to determine price. Ted will be the last person to say that is what is transpiring on Comex because he knows, best of all, that it is a fraudulent market where out-of-control unbacked selling is allowed. Some fine American Institution that one has become.

Free markets are far greater than these various central planners and manipulators. Does one really think the free market will not find a mechanism of honest weights and measures to settle metal prices should Comex and the criminals who run it be forced into accountability? Where's the trust in the free market mechanisms by those who cling to this fraudulent "tradition"?

Demanding honest markets, and honest money for that matter, is a much bigger goal than just making a few bucks on these crooked markets and leaving them this same way for our future generations.

Sinclair and Butler are both coaching a few enlightened citizens on how to get around paying the "Stamp Tax" or the "Tea Tax" or whatever other form of tyranny happens to be their objective. Maybe we should set up a Committee to Ensure Social Security Payments for the Enlightened where a scant few of us can get back a portion of what we paid into this crooked system? What's the difference? A few profit because of special training and the masses are left with an oppressive collectivist system intact.........for future generations to deal with. Thank goodness those that inspired the American Revolution didn't take this approach.

I would like Jim Sinclair to address these issues specifically, but will not hold my breath as he's engrossed in a world of "paper", which should be dumped in the harbor.

See ya's back at the Tavern!

[Edit]
Correction To Last Post. -- beesting, 10:12:47 11/02/03 Sun

Dawson and Dawson Creek are two different places, Dawson is in the Yukon, Dawson Creek is in British Colombia very close to Alberta.....And close to the beginning of "The Alcan Highway".
Sorry for the mix-up......beesting.

[Edit]
Le Canadians -- beesting, 09:54:08 11/02/03 Sun

Hi qwerty, from your post:
" " i am american ... when i travel outside country, i will just tell people i'm canadian ... can one tell the
difference between a canadian and american ... any tips on acting canadian :-)" "

1. Take a crash course in French.
1A. Learn to use your "hands" for added expression when talking.
1B. Leave out some "prepositions and adverbs" when talking.

2. You drive a "Bazool".(Junky old car)
3. Use the word "about"(pronounced aboot)a lot.
4. Example: You're a recovering alcoholic who used to drink "aboot" 3 gallons of beer a day.
5. Quickly become an expert on "ice hockey."
5A. Read Wayne Gretsky and Maurice "The Rocket" Richard's life historys.

6. Get a map of Canada and study it, find out where "The Bay of Fundy" is, Prince Edward Island(a Province),Sudbury, Medicine Hat, Moose Jaw, Saskatoon, "The ice fields of Colombia", Whitehorse, and Kamloops are.

7. Your Past: You lived in Dawson (formally Dawson Creek), Yukon Territory and had to learn "American" to communicate with the "Yanks" from right across the Yukon river.
8. You wear "Muk-a-luk" footwear at all times.
9. You read up on the different ways to cook moose.
10. You've seen polar bears from a distance.
11. You're interested in everything aboot Gold and Gold mining.

Good Luck.........beesting.
P.S. For any and all Canadians reading please realize this post was made in the spirit of good natured fun.

[Edit]
No jobs -- volavka, 09:25:20 11/02/03 Sun

Manufacturing workers' hourly pay.

Denmark 20.23
japan 16.46
united states 16.14
Taiwan 5.18
Mexico 2.08

CHINA 61 cents.

Game over.....

[Edit]
re Canadian conundrum -- number six, 07:57:56 11/02/03 Sun

The answer is to beat them to the punch by spouting off negative vibes about Usa (or maybe just it's government), while pretending to be Canadian. Don't rubbish the country, just bitck about the same things many a proud American hates about America, maybe the same things these foreigners hate about America... I dunno, Jerry Springer, George Bush, Falwell, Bill Gates' haircut or something like that.

You wouldn't have to be disingenuous about it all; probly no need to pretend to not be American. But their anti-US negativity towards you would be disarmed - aikido style - by your outlining many a good complaint about how you're country is going. They'd listen and be mighty impressed, and pleased to find a yank who finally knows what's going on! Might teach 'em a lesson not to be prejudiced a-holes.

You'd get to bitch about how it's all going to hell in a handbasket (a justified favourite topic around here,) and they'd get their righteous indignation stoked & stroked.

[Edit]
qwerty -- jomama, 07:08:41 11/02/03 Sun

"i am american ... when i travel outside country, i will just tell people i'm canadian ... can one tell the difference between a canadian and american ... any tips on acting canadian :-)"

Put "eh" at the end of many sentences with an upward lilt
to its intonation.

There are others like "hoose" for house.

This may have more value than u think or depending on
who ur dealing with, no value at all.

Better to learn a few phrases in another language...just
enuf to fool whoever ur talking to.

Then walk off.

If u can.

[Edit]
Sleep tight -- Au_Wag, 04:07:03 11/02/03 Sun



[Edit]
by the way..Cor Tauri -- Flitner, 21:46:18 11/01/03 Sat

...you might want to check out something called the "Jefferson Bible".

Flinter

[Edit]
@Cor Tauri && "Winning" -- Flinter, 21:18:08 11/01/03 Sat

Cor Tauri said: "The cabal can not lose in the way that you suggest, and yet, I think perhaps they are already ruined in another way."

You are so RIGHT, my friend.

In fact, I Pity them...that is all I can feel for them, their emulators...and their victims. Dancing partners in tragedy.

Do you think they understand or experience Joy, can experience the exquisite beauty of a sunset, the perfection of creation in an art work in hand or a garden in bloom, or feel the inner peace of building a tree house with a child? And if they cannot experience these simple (all that is good and true is simple) fundamentals...are they progressing toward an understanding that NOTHING is stationary, that all is alive and evolving together...that the world (the universe) is a continuous flow, interconnected together? That all are brothers and all are free?

These are the things that constitute a life of Power, REAL POWER. Enhancing the Self and all that "it surrounds".

What these fools weld is not power, but force...violence...the diametric opposite of Real Power.

They worship destruction and self-destruction, not life.

They have a gifted life in which to grow, an opportunity to evolve...and what do they do with it? They De-evolve!

To see them as "winning" is to adopt their world-view and to measure yourself by their symbols systems. To de-evolve with them. To loose with them.

I suggest that in their last instant before death...an instant that expands into eternity...they will get what they have worshiped.

But in our learning and understanding, we can have a different fate, a different experience in this life...so perhaps they DO play some kind of important role in the big picture.

But still, Pity...is what I feel.

The very best to you,
Flinter

[Edit]
dirty nuke -- qwerty, 17:50:07 11/01/03 Sat

===
Adnan El Shukrijumah is a suspected al-Qaeda organizer who is the subject of a worldwide manhunt by the FBI and CIA. He is believed to be working on Osama bin Laden's plan to trigger a radiological disaster inside the United States - the so-called "dirty-bomb" scenario where a small charge would trigger dispersion of radiation over a large area, wreaking havoc on those caught in the blast and making the blast area uninhabitable. High-grade uranium is not necessary for this project; ordinary, low-grade nuclear waste will be deadly enough
===

Translated: The US government is hard at work getting the american public pschologically ready for a dirty nuke. The US government's covert operation teams will perpetrate the act of terrorism and blame it on one of their fictitious fronts and cutouts. The treasonous perpetrators behind such terrorism will control the investigation and cover up from the start. Homeland Security will play the major role in such a cover up of treason. the media will assist.

[Edit]
Tanzania -- Frisco Fred, 13:49:03 11/01/03 Sat


I had a dyslexic period this morning.

Correction - Tananzia to Tanzania.

Thank you,
Fred

[Edit]
Decisions -- Frisco Fred, 10:49:11 11/01/03 Sat


IMHO, to truly understand a mine, a government, a religion, etc., you must first learn the history of it. I admit I have not looked into the history of all mines, but most of the ones that I have possess some dark beginnings. They may be very profitable now, but, do we want greed or morals?
Artesian miners in Tananzia, who were earning a good living and adding to the economy, were pushed out and/or killed to make way for Tan Range/Barricks to set up environmentally damaging mines, also doing away with thousands of jobs of the native Tananzian. (One example only.) The history of any government (see CorTauri post) speaks volumes for the country. The history of religion shows that some have been changed (through interpretation, translation, nefarious decisions made for the desires of the decision makers), or have been government related.

Sometimes I think that we want all things that are easy to obtain, never acknowleding the darker side that makes it so easy.

Has our country been better off since 1954, when "under God" was added to our pledge? In a government document mentioned at ER before, is a declaration that our country is NOT based on Christianity in any form. The Ten Commandments were given in the Old Testament and are Jewish, but these same commandments were given by other religions (i.e. Ancient Egyptians), so should there be such a clammer about the display of them?

What has mining (other than artesian) done to the beautiful environment that was so graciously given us by our maker? How many people have been hurt financially, physically, morally and emotionally by some of the mines that have been put in place?

You may change your mind about a choice you have made if you know the history of that choice. I know that I have.

Gentle breezes,
Fred

[Edit]
Cor Tauri -- qwerty, 10:10:30 11/01/03 Sat

>The cabal, if it is a cabal worth the name is not desperate.

i was trying to search for a word and my mind went stupid in an articulate way but i can do that at times ... depends how my health is feeling

your right in that they will never be desperate

i am american ... when i travel outside country, i will just tell people i'm canadian ... can one tell the difference between a canadian and american ... any tips on acting canadian :-)

you have a good post and a lot of good points i would like to comment on but i will try to get to it later

[Edit]
Silver - The China factor -- Netking, 10:07:50 11/01/03 Sat

China is the single most significant factor in the silver equation. But more importantly, it's coming to a real critical time.....entering into the silver hour when Jerome Smith's predictions may well come to pass.

Anyway you might find this fair use snip from the website of Pan American, where some of it's people have been involved with China's silver:

"...Chinese inventories are much smaller than they were in 1998 and it is thought by some experts that they will be completely exhausted at the present rate of sales by mid-2004. This will be hastened by any increase in domestic silver demand. Longer term, increased industrial and jewelry demand in the coun-try's growing economy, coupled with the predicted stable to lower Chinese mine supply, should result in China's current silver surplus changing to a net silver deficit within a few years..."

"...For 2003, silver demand is projected to increase, based on higher industrial demand, growing Chinese demand, greater Indian jewelry demand and higher investment demand. Silver supply growth should again be muted, with little change in silver mine supply, though it is unknown what Chinese government sales will be [a continued reduction of these?]. A key driver of the silver price is the direction of the US dollar, and some analysts argue that the dollar will continue to weaken and that, as a result, all metal commodity prices will rise in US dollar terms..."

http://www.panamericansilver.com/s/SilverFundamentals.asp

This from the Silver Institute:

"....Posting the largest annual drop since 1994, global silver mine output declined to 585.9 million ounces (Moz) in 2002. The Survey states that there could be a further decline in mine production in 2003, as base metal producers are forecast to scale back output and no significant new capacity is expected to come online. Weaker global base metals prices contributed to a 3-percent reduction in silver production from lead and zinc mines and a further 1-percent decline in silver output from copper mines. Mexico again mined the most silver last year, followed by Peru, Australia, the United States and China. Silver from primary mines generated 27 percent of total mined silver last year, up from 25 percent in 2001. Average cash costs declined 23 percent from 2001 figures, to reach $2.31 per ounce.

For the fourteenth straight year, a structural deficit was recorded. This gap between fabrication demand and conventional supply (mine production and recycled scrap) stood at 67.4 Moz in 2002...."

Further comment: So there we have it, strongly rising demand, possible declining or even a stopping of Chinese sales during 2004[?], supply under pressure. If this govt sale source which made up 8.26% of supply in 2002 stops, look out folks, things will get very ugly, very quickly for those who need silver, and who need lots of it. Even if the PRC continues as previous, it's still coming to crunch time anyway. Complete your silver [physical] stocking up before Christmas . . . I hear the sound of abundance of rain . . . silver rain.

[Edit]
scary monsters and super creeps -- number six, 07:53:15 11/01/03 Sat

re apll.ob - Sold 1/3 of shares at 50% profit - which effectively gives you half your money back, but leaves your stake as large as you originally punted. It's a betting pattern I feel emotionally comfortable with, assuming it's a stock I mostly want to hold for longer. With apll The wave of volume had clearly passed, so it weren't going any higher for a little while. I had intially set out to sell half on a double, but the pump-spike didn't have the oomph to get there.

I went looking for other gold/silver microcaps that are moving into production, and projecting tiny forward p/e's. Essentially, they're value plays in a sector where many companies appear to have a fully speculative market cap.

But if you find a USA gold company with a market cap of $12m , that is moving to initiate production of 50,000 oz/year at $11m a year profit for 10 years,....welll, you might do what I did and buy some. :) They've got over $200 million worth of resource ounces, much of which (on first glance) appears to be mineable at a comfortable profit. Rysmf.ob Royal Standard Minerals.


-THis is some guy from Silicon Investor giving his research/tout blerb on them (Their market cap is $12 million now.) The SI forums there are a great source for leads and info on gold/silver mining companies.

Click HERE


-This is an article about their main shareholder - a big European fund that definitely knows their gold. (They own 10% of Celtic Resources so I can attest that they certainly know what they're doing.)

Click HERE



-This is Lawrence Roulston's Resource Opportunities write up about the company. He's quite a good analyst stockpicking guru, imho.

Click HERE

Now this company might also suck on a lot levels that I haven't heard anything about. They're small otcbb venture exchange. Buyer beware of course... but they do apparently have a lot of gold there, relative to their price. I'm just pointing out the good side of the story, but I can't especially vouch for it. Value speculating among the gold juniors appears to be a way of minimising risks while joining the gold bull. I mean, if they have the resources they claim, then their price isn't going much lower in this golden day & age, is it?

MOre likely to go well & truly up, would be my guess.

[Edit]
Happy Halloween -- number six, 05:41:23 11/01/03 Sat



[Edit]
Wow -- Cor Tauri, 02:24:02 11/01/03 Sat

Look at the post by qwerty
fianncial matrix 2 -- qwerty, 03:27:16 10/31/03 Fri

then immediatly read the post by Hawk right above it
Interesting twists -- Hawk, 05:18:44 10/31/03 Fri

The red pill is sweet in the mouth, but bitter in the belly.

dotti:
I also am a Christian. At some point I rebelled against the beliefs I was taught as a child. I explored a number of other religious philosopies.

It was wonderous, they all have a piece of it, the truth, the wisdom, it, I don't have the words but I know you know what I mean.

Then in arrogance I went back to explore my own religion. I expected the shallowness of what I was taught as a child to be torn to shreads by what I had learned, perceived, almost understood in these other philosopies. The shallowness wasn't there anymore. There was the same wisdom, the same awe and beauty I had come to know. But here was the same truth presented in my cultural context. I mean to figure out that Vishnu and Shiva are actually one you have to figure out what Vishnu and Shiva are individually. That is best learned in that culture, which isn't my culture.

It is difficult, perhaps impossible for me to ever understand that. I might never get anything more than the practice of trying to see profund meaning that is hidden from me by lack of cultural context. OmarD has suggested I think, that to understand Islam, you have to read the Koran in Arabic. I know nothing of Islam, but I understand why it might be important to learn Arabic to understand the depth of Islam.

When I read about Christ and the beliefs of Christianity, there was none of the trite and shallowness I expected. It was new, exciting and profound. Even more profound than all the others, because I am a product of the Culture in which the richness of meaning in Christianity is expressed. Our current society is failing very baddly at living up to the Christian ideal. But our society would fail greatly at any of the religions. We as a people have turned our back to sincerity and goodness. There is no teaching that predicts a benificial outcome to that rejection.

The religion itself however, is my home. I have been sightseening and traveling, and that was very good. I have learned about people who say that "Sound is God", and though I have trouble deeply comprehending that concept, I can see clearly that "In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was with God."
I am again a new Christian. I am currently re reading the New Testiment, but this round I am only reading the words actually spoken by Christ. I grew up in this house, I remember the context they are in, and if not, I will glance at the surrounding text. But it is a hard religion, and it can cause a degree of flakyness. You know we are supposed to follow the Lamb, the Lamb that was slain. Thats scary and hard, and in our current society it is considered very much "peace and love foolishness".

Fiat Lux

dotti: I almost forgot, soon in the media you will likely see something I think you will consider a great herasy concerning the family life of Jesus. Do not be too troubled by it.

Oh, and I have no idea about the quarterly GDP being highest in 19 years. I havn't actually given that any thought. It's all managed statistics anyway.
I will mention that I am looking for a different job and after months of no responses, today three different companies called to set up interviews.

[Edit]
qwerty -- Cor Tauri, 01:16:35 11/01/03 Sat

" or just takes over barrick and the shareholders get screwed"

Several years ago, I would have read your statement as either a joke, a goofy theory, or something just very unlikely to happen. Now I read it as a purly realistic possibility. I have seen over the past 3 years that this is indeed how companies are acquired.

The shareholders in any company are simply gambling. It dosn't matter what the P/E ratio is, and it dosn't matter what the Debt/Equity ratio is. If a large comapnay has assets that are desirable, they will be pushed into debt, then bankruptcty. The creditors will acquire it for a pennies on the dollar. I think this is what happened to Worldcom and Enron isn't it?

"remember the days" The cabal, if it is a cabal worth the name is not desperate. They are stopped and reversed perhaps, but you have to figure they anticipated that. These folks the "CABAL" have been long gold a long time. The whole $850 to $250 was their "buy on the dips". Your probably right that the minions of the cabal are sweating it. But for them the worst that can happen is that they loose their jobs.

That could be hard, where I work one of the security officers is a former banker and banking examiner, he mentioned the actual titles, but he was a banker for years and then worked in a regulatory capacity for years. Now he is a guard. Bit brighter than the average guard.

There seems to be only us, the cabal, and the masses. The minions don't count, the cabal will eat them with relish. The masses will get utterly devistated, will will get hurt but with gold and luck we might maintain some semblance of a civilized life, the cabal, well I don't know what will happen to them. I imagine they won't starve to death.

Try and see my way of understanding this: IF there is a cabal, a multi-generational, multi-century organisation, dark, sinister, glamour of evil type folks, these people create the economic reality in which we live.

Our task, in which we seem to be doing well, is figureing out what direction that cabal must go in next. For years we have understood that the cabal will, must, cause gold to appreciate against fiat paper assets. I guess what I am saying is your note of triumph is hollow. Our adversary, the PTB, the cabal, is long gold too.

qwerty, are you an American? Do you remember in school being taught about the Articles of Confederation, and how they didn't work? The constitutional convention came along and created the constitution. There was a federalist party and an anti-federalist party.

Most of the people we consider the founders of our country were in the federalist party. The federalist party was the cabal. The articles were weak intentionally, to make it impossible for a federal government to usurp the rights of the states and the rights of the people. The new constitution was techniclly a type of treason in that it proposed a new form of government and contained within itself it's own vehicle for ratification.

The people of that day were wise enough to try to stop it. When they couldn't because of the power of the costal merchants and bankers, they forced the inclusion of the Bill of Rights. It was perhaps enough to preserve some liberty for a hundred years or so.

I almost hate to dampen your enthusiasim, The cabal can not lose in the way that you suggest, and yet, I think perhaps they are already ruined in another way.

[Edit]
Happy Halloween -- Woody, 18:22:57 10/31/03 Fri



[Edit]
i'll modify mark twains quote -- qwerty, 17:57:54 10/31/03 Fri

"Truth is mighty and will prevail. There is nothing the matter with this, except in the matrix"

================== QWERTY ========================

[Edit]
A Wise Man -- Frisco Fred, 12:54:07 10/31/03 Fri


"Truth is mighty and will prevail. There is nothing the matter with this, except that it ain't so."

============ Mark Twain ============

[Edit]
abx -- qwerty, 11:28:03 10/31/03 Fri

i have always wondered about the barrick hedges

i couldn't figure out how they would be burned especially if their counter parties are jpm and the cabal

i could imagine that maybe 10 years from now, gold could be a glut and they would be able to push the price down

but then i read something ...

they have 10 years to deliver ... they would have to start delivering into their hedges in years 7 years from now and would have to deliver ALL THEIR PRODUCTION

i didn't think about this

then there is inflation ... that will cause the cost of production to rise

the only way out i see is that the cabal extends out the hedges even further or just takes over barrick and the shareholders get screwed

[Edit]
remember the days -- qwerty, 11:21:06 10/31/03 Fri

remember the days when the cabal could keep gold within a 2 dollar range

remember when they could bash it down with hardly any countering

remember the struggle

things look a lot better

i am sensing from the past weeks that the cabal is in a more desperate mode

they can't bash the price too much since there are big buyers out there who will buy it up

they can't let it go up since goinjg above 400 would send up a flare at least psychologically

[Edit]
Silver Institute -- Netking, 10:19:01 10/31/03 Fri

website upgrade....nice pics.
http://www.silverinstitute.org/

[Edit]
Passing out gold coins -- volavka, 07:23:08 10/31/03 Fri

tonite. Chocolate that is in gold wrap. Note attached for parents, get u some or your kid will always beg.

[Edit]
An Ol' Disease -- jomama, 06:12:06 10/31/03 Fri

There's something seriously wrong with some folks on this planet.

Some folks just spent a lotta money and lives beating the shit outta other folks.

Then the folks doing the beating spend money stolen from other folks to fix what the first bunch destroyed.

Well, it ain't my planet.

Ahs jus' passin' thru.

[Edit]
Cry babies -- volavka, 05:18:57 10/31/03 Fri

Today we go up strong.

[Edit]
Interesting twists -- Hawk, 05:18:44 10/31/03 Fri

When reproducing our materials in whole or in part, reference to PRAVDA.Ru should be made. The opinions and views of the authors do not always coinside with the point of view of PRAVDA.Ru's editors.

Snip.

Does the Prosecutor's Office need to seek arrest of Yukos shares? The situation is perfectly clear today: all the parties involved in the scandal are anticipating open investigation at court and are not inclined to make any abrupt movements so far. If Yukos foreign investors are scared away, the shares may disappear once and for all. This is rather unfavorable for all the sides. That is why the government should keep up a dialogue with Yukos foreign shareholders. The very fact that recently Russia's President Vladimir Putin has met with Former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger interested in Yukos affairs and with Lord Jacob Rothschild suggests that the parties of the conflict are in touch and can discuss measures that are to be taken.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/89/355/11179_yukos.html

Sure is a small world.

Hawk

[Edit]
fianncial matrix 2 -- qwerty, 03:27:16 10/31/03 Fri

he predicament we face ...

===

The Blue Pill People
by Hari Heath


There are none so blind as those who will not look. If you are one of those who will look, take a look around. You are surrounded -- surrounded by millions who will not look. These are the blue pill people. Who are these blue pill people and why won't they look?

"The Matrix" may be only a movie, but it presents some scenarios with much relevance to our current situation. In the movie, Neo meets Morpheus and is offered an opportunity and a choice. Neo can take the red pill and see the truth for himself, or he can take the blue pill and return, comfortably unaware, to the illusion of the Matrix. There he can live out his life undisturbed by the truth. The truth depicted in The Matrix is an extreme version of modern socialism.

In the futuristic scenario of the movie, a massive array of human beings are kept in self-contained pods that resemble artificial wombs. These "row-cropped" human entities are maintained in their pods, from their in vitro conception until they are no longer useful to the Artificial Intelligence (AI) entity. The AI entity needs certain things from these "humans" for its own sustenance, so it continuously breeds new human crops and extracts from them what it needs. In return, the AI entity supplies the humans' needs with several permanent intravenous connections and a neural link. The neural link provides the pod-bound humans with a complete illusion -- the Matrix. In the AI-created illusion the humans have a normal life in a real world. In reality, however, the civilized world was destroyed some time ago and humans have been harvested as crops for the benefit of the Al entity ever since. The Matrix is a complete digital holographic type "world" created by the AI entity to mentally contain its human crops while it extracts what it needs from their pod-bound bodies.

In the movie, when Morpheus is about to offer Neo the choice between either the red pill or the blue pill, he explains:

"You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain -- but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life; that there's something wrong with the world; you don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?"

"The Matrix," Neo asks?

"Do you want to know what it is? The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes; it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth."

And Neo asks, "What truth?"

"That you are a slave Neo, like everyone else, you were born into bondage; born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch; a prison for your mind. Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to experience it for yourself."

Those few humans who were either born into reality, or have successfully taken the red pill, become the focus of the movie's story -- their attempts to destroy the Matrix and liberate the mass of humanity that lives completely encapsulated in their pods and the illusions fed to them by the powers that be -- powers that will go to any length to maintain the illusion.

Extreme, but not much different than our modern system of corporate government and capitalistic socialism. The governing powers need things from us, not the least of which is our consent. To obtain our consent we are fed all manner of benefits. We are programmed from an early age to believe that such benefits are necessary. To obtain these benefits, a number of conduits are attached to each of us. Adhesion contracts like Social Security, a driver's license; voter registration for a pretended choice of social masters, bank accounts where credit is manufactured for our use and other memberships, registrations, licenses, deeds and permits to insure the conduct of our affairs will be confined within the "matrix" of corporate governance.

We are given our own numbered "pod," a social net provided by the government. Educated according to mandates of the state, our belief system is further cultured by corporate media.

There are various forms of "welfare" should we succumb to poverty or disease. If we are threatened or in danger we can call 911. Government's job of "securing" us is made easier by the massive database tracking our movements, our finances, the location of our homes and businesses and our tax records. When old age creeps up, we can rely on government to take care of us.

The corporate/government/financial interface combines to create a massive illusion of benefits -- the American dream. For the price of a promise to indebt our future labors, pay our taxes and play within the system, there are seemingly limitless toys, castles, comforts and consumables for those who believe in this Matrix. For half our productivity taken in taxes (the other half in payments) and the deeds and title to whatever we think we own, government and its private affiliates will take care of us.

To live in this Matrix, all we have to surrender is any genuine sense of independence, personal responsibility and our right to live freely and actually own the fruits of our labors.

And, like in the movie, a contingent of agents are deployed to combat any renegade humans who have a will for freedom from the Matrix which surrounds us.

As Morpheus expiained, "The Matrix is a system Neo, and that system is our enemy. When you are inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters, the very minds we are trying to save. Until we do, these people are part of that system and that makes them our enemies. You have to understand that most of these people are not ready to be unplugged and many are so hopelessly dependent on the system, they'll fight to protect it."

Why will blue pill people fight to protect a Matrix that enslaves them? It's all they know. And all their toys, castles, comforts and consumables will be gone without the Matrix. Their whole illusionary existence will evaporate, leaving them naked and alone.

What won't the blue pill people in our current "real" world look at? They refuse to acknowledge they are they are funding their enslavement to a socialist homeland police state. Last month, a few "red pill" people traveled to D.C. for an eloquent conclusion to Freedom Drive 2002, exposing the fraud of the l6th Amendment, the IRS, and the federal income tax. But the blue pill people remained comfortably in their coma, ever willing to pay a tax they do not owe. They fund Congress and the Nazi/moron president's implementation of America's new Third Reich, so they can feel "secure."

And, so the blue pill people can finally understand what really happened the morning of September 11, 2001, Henry Kissinger, the angel of death and global tyranny, will investigate the facts and tell us the blue-pill truth. Will Americans really believe the Doctor of genocide?

Hidden away on the 6th floor of the Department of Justice building is the secret FISA Court. U. S. attorneys have been going there for years to get secret search warrants from in-house, rubberstamp judges under the guise of "national security." This parallel "legal" system can order clandestine searches of citizens' and non-citizens' homes. From the "evidence" gathered, we can be secretly declared "enemy combatants" and held indefinitely at U. S. military bases.

Remember the detainment camps those paranoid conspiracy theorists told you about years ago?

U.S. officials claim they can detain and interrogate enemy combatants until the executive branch declares an end to the war on terrorism. This includes no access to lawyers or family members; investigations, interrogations, trials and punishments can be held without the protections secured by the Constitution. The Nazi/moron president's administration says there is ample precedent for what it is doing. Are we following the "ample precedent" of a man named Hitler?

Meanwile, the Congress has passed the American Gestapo Authorization (Homeland Security) Act which defines a terrorist as:

"The term "terrorism' means any activity that -- involves an act that is dangerous to human life or potentially destructive of critical infrastructure or key resources; and is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State or other subdivision of the United States; and appears to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping."

As a test for social compliance, 838 blue pillers recently passed blissfully through an unconstitutional random roadblock in Pittsburgh without "seeing" the real "terrorists" in Homeland Security's new America -- the police state (See page 22). Is our present police state "dangerous to human life" and "destructive of critical infrastructure" like the Bill of Rights? Is it "against the laws" (18 USC 241; 242) to deprive a citizen of their right to travel and be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects? Do random roadblocks, by design, "intimidate or coerce a civilian population?" What happens if you don't comply with the roadblock?

The next test for blue pill compliance will be mass inoculations for smallpox. Will the blue pill population literally trample all over each other to get their shots as some officials predict? Has the vaccination "matrix" been so well entrenched in the blue pillers' minds that they will actually let mercury, monkey puss and aborted fetal tissue be injected under their skin based on an unproven theory that such things promote health and prevent disease?

And what greater "matrix" is there, than our current "fiat;' financial system? We "believe" that a piece of paper with the picture of a dead president has the value of the number printed on it and that one dead president is more valuable than another. We don't even consider that the use of this dead president paper is the direct cause of our own enslavement.

Have you ever seen your bank account? It's not there. Only the slight-of-hand practiced by the teller and the accountant behind the scenes makes this illusion look real to the blue pill people.

How deep does the rabbit hole go? Near the end of the movie, the Matrix's agent Smith acclaims the virtues of the Matrix to the captive red pill people's leader Morpheus: "Have you ever stood and stared at it? Marveled at is beauty; its genius? Billions of people, just living out their lives -- oblivious."

From the December 2002 Idaho Observer:
sent in by Eolake Stobblehouse

===

[Edit]
financial matrix -- qwerty, 03:24:33 10/31/03 Fri

===
Technicaly, its a manipulated market, comex fiat futures are irrelevant! Remember platinum? they couldn't deliver yet insisted the price was what they wanted it to be, a simple case of a market with liars on top. Realise the markets are fake, news is fake, all your life you have been lead to believe in lies, you are in a financial matrix, an imposed fantasy others would have you believe. WAKE UP! Do you think the people controling this situation are your friends? I severely doubt that, look at the siege mentality of govt armed to the teeth and hostile against the people they breed and control as prey. That is the real world, a predatory system.
===

cut and pasted a post from somewhere else

it succinctly articulates our financial predicament

[Edit]
alan stang -- qwerty, 02:24:40 10/31/03 Fri

looked into alan stang before

the more i looked, the more red flags went up

i don't think he is real

i think he works for the NWO

i sense he is treasonous

i don't trust him

[Edit]
Socialists denying communist link leave trail of destruction -- Goldustorm, 22:16:55 10/30/03 Thu

http://www.etherzone.com/2003/stang103103.shtml
BRAINWASHING IS THE METHOD
TREASON IS THE REASON
By: Alan Stang
"Treason no doubt is as old as government. Wherever you have one, you have the other. Every government has been plagued with it, from Alcibiades to Arnold to Aldrich Ames. But our situation is unique. I cannot find in history, anywhere in the world, a nation subjected to as much continuing treason for as long as ours.
There are individual traitors like the ones I have named; but I cannot find another country whose own government was the traitor; whose own government committed a hundred years of treason against its own people. That is the situation under which the American people now labor.
When Benedict Arnold betrayed his command to the British, our government was loyal. It was loyal thereafter until the early years of the Twentieth Century. Yes, the previous century did see the Mexican War, our first baby steps toward empire; it did see the fratricidal conflict engineered by totalitarian monster Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt's "splendid little war" concocted by William Randolph Hearst in Havana.

But the purpose of those wars was not to hand our country to a foreign enemy. Treason in my lexicon consists of doing exactly that, of betraying our country into foreign hands, especially during wartime. Treason certainly consists of giving control of our government to another government.
How do I know that treason is the reason? How can I prove it? Remember that when weeds sprang up among the wheat, the Master explained, "An enemy hath done this." (Matt. 13:24ff.) In the cause-and-effect universe God created, when there is an effect, you know there was a cause. You may not know yet what the cause was, but you know there was one.
God could have done it any way He liked. Why did He do it this way? My answer will as always be clear, concise and completely correct. I don't know. The only thing we know about God is the effect we call scripture He caused His prophets to write. God caused that effect to teach us something about Him.
Suppose that for a hundred years you keep finding weeds in your wheat. If, as scripture tells us, an enemy hath done this, you would have sound reason to conclude that your enemy is trying to destroy you. I am simply asking you to apply here the same thinking you would apply to someone who keeps cheating you.
The first few times, you might attribute the problem to accident or misunderstanding. After a hundred years, you would remember the hallowed legal principle that a man is presumed to intend the natural consequences of his acts. The cops won't buy it if I tell them I "didn't know" your head would split open and your brain would leak out when I hit you in the head with the axe.
And so it was that in the early years of the Twentieth Century, we began to see intensifying and multiplying attempts to destroy our national independence and to submerge our country in a world government, in which the former United States would be a mere wide place in the road.
Remember that world government – however innocuous its champions make it sound – is ipso facto treason, because world government means the destruction of the United States government. You can have one or the other, not both, for the same reason that two solid objects cannot occupy the same place at the same time.
After a century of such treason our government is Communist. Our media are Communist. Our schools are Communist. How do I know? I know because I see the Communist effects. I know because world government has always been a Communist goal. I may not know which Communists effected the perversion. I may not know exactly how they did it; but we have Communist effects, so we must have Communist causes.
Remember that the congressional investigations of the 1940s uncovered a couple of Communist spy rings because former Communists like Elizabeth Bentley and Whittaker Chambers testified about them. Many other such rings were left untouched and they have no doubt continued to infiltrate and to subvert our government and other institutions for sixty years.
There is surely no need here to repeat that the "collapse" of the Soviet Union and of Communism is an utter fraud devised by the Kremlin to advance the conquest of the West. In previous pieces you can easily find in the Ether Zone archives I proved that incontrovertible fact.
Among the Communist effects for which there are Communist causes is the fact that we are perpetually at war. Sure enough, the men who control our government these days are called "neo-conservatives" to beguile the unwary; in fact they are disciples of Leon Trotsky's and Trotsky was the founder of the Soviet Red Army. He taught the Soviet doctrine of perpetual war.
Another Communist effect is the use of dialectical materialism in politics to whipsaw the voters between the two parties, the technique colloquially known as "the lesser of two evils." A corollary of the technique could be stated as follows: You may be only one day pregnant, but you still have been had. We saw the latest application of the technique recently in California.
The job of the Democrats is to scare the h-e-c-k out of you, to make themselves look as stupid and maniacal as possible, to make the craziest proposals; and, one must admit, they do their job well. The job of the Republicans is to be one day pregnant and to keep their flies zipped and George W. Bush does an equally good job. Remember that "neo-con" Communist policies are his policies.
Some people don't believe the major political parties are merely two legs on the same bug. How can they want the same thing and be allies when they obviously hate each other? Yes, they do hate each other. Didn't Djugashvili and Bronstein (Stalin and Trotsky) hate each other? Didn't Stalin send a man to Mexico to split Trotsky's head open with an axe? Didn't Stalin and Trotsky want the same thing: world Communism?
A third Communist effect is the brainwashing our Communist government, schools and media presently are inflicting on the American people. Brainwashing is based on the Communist perversion of the scientific research conducted by Ivan Pavlov, whom the Soviets kept isolated in the splendid laboratory they gave him. Pavlov died with no idea of what the Soviets had done with his findings.
The first effects of Soviet brainwashing showed up in the Moscow purge trials of the 1930s, in which the founders of the Soviet Union – potential rivals Stalin wanted to get rid of – confessed to crimes they could not have committed, crimes that were prima facie impossible for them to commit. The still unknowing world scratched its head, wondering what had been done to these men.
Later, Moscow's little Soviet brothers in Communist Peiping adapted the technique to subjugate the people of China, where it became known informally as "brainwashing." And journalist Edward Hunter, an "old China hand," formalized the term in his books on the subject, Brainwashing from Pavlov to Powers and Brainwashing in Red China.
Why did the Soviets devise this technique? They understood perfectly that in the world dictatorship they wanted it would be impossible to keep the people subjugated with nothing but police. There could never be enough police for the purpose. There would be constant rebellion. So, they decided to create New Soviet Man. This would be a human automaton, programmed like a modern computer to police himself..
What is brainwashing? It is a psychological technique that uses intimidation, bribery, repetition, hypnosis, threats, deprivation, and torture – every weapon you can think of – to produce a bizarre species of insanity in which the brainwashed victim now believes exactly the opposite of what he believed when the brainwashing began.
It induces hallucinations, which cause the victim to swear up and down even in court, that things happened, things that couldn't possibly have happened because of the known facts. But the victim believes them. Among the best-known victims of the process was Josef Cardinal Mindszenty of Hungary. Ed Hunter relates in considerable detail how the Red Chinese tried with some success to brainwash our Prisoners Of War in Korea.
How do I know that the Communists are brainwashing Americans here in the United States right now? I know it because they are doing the same things here they did in Red China. In the next couple of weeks we'll take a look. Only if you know what is happening can you defeat it."
"Published originally at EtherZone.com : republication allowed with this notice and hyperlink intact."
Alan Stang has been a network radio talk show host and was one of Mike Wallace's first writers.  He was a senior writer for American Opinion magazine and has lectured around the world for more than 30 years. He is also the author of ten books, including, most recently, Perestroika Sunset, surrounding our Government's deception in the POW/MIA arena. If you would like him to address your group, please email what you have in mind. He is a regular columnist for Ether Zone.
Alan Stang can be reached at: feedback@stangbooks.com
We invite you to visit his website at: www.stangbooks.com
Published in the October 31, 2003 issue of  Ether Zone.
Copyright © 1997 - 2003 Ether Zone.

[Edit]
beesting -- qwerty, 16:26:51 10/30/03 Thu

what your saying is fine

i think getting physical if one already has a lot of wealth makes sense

for the poor paupers here, buying gold stocks and then taking profits from there to buy physical later will allow more accumulation of physical and make more sense

profits i take out of gold stocks will go to a holding base like turks goldmoney thing ...

i will buy a shit load of physical at some point and give it to my amish nephew who can store it and also use it ...

collecting physical will not solve the larger economic problem - the federal reserve, central banks and fiat currencies backed by nothing or a little must be eliminated ...

the fiat system has allowed the criminals to steal peoples REAL MONEY - THEIR LABOR AND TOIL - in an invisible way and subsidize and bail out their enterprises such as banks and corporations and allow masive theft ...

if a little guy has a business and they go bankrupt, the federal reserve will let them sink ... THE FIAT IS LIKE ROBBERY ON A MASS SCALE FROM THE CITIZENS BY THE INSIDERS. SPECIAL INTERESTS and ELITES and the citizens are rarely aware

as far as money ... i should say FRN fiat money ... it is still money because there are people willing to exchange their sweat and toil for it ...

more important, in legal terms, it is LEGAL TENDER ... as long as thugs control the governments and media, they will be able to make the rules and control the mindless cogs and force its use

in the bigger picture, money whether FRN or REAL is the same ... when you die, you can't take it with you ... if i could, i would definitely take the gold

at some point the gold bull will end ... what will people do out there do ... have all physical or have physical and fiat and stocks etc ...

i'll divide it up ... fiat for use in the corrupt system ... gold in storage as insurance ... probably park some money in china / asian stocks ...

unless the treasonous criminals are removed, the corruption of the money creation will continue ... you may not like, i may not like it but we need to deal with it in practical ways

[Edit]
"Tthere is no system more corrupt..." -- OmarD, 14:47:57 10/30/03 Thu

View from the "outside"...by most all...sadly...(and ultimately, very unfortunately for the citizens of this nation)

Bush's Support For Sharon
10/30/2003 - Political - Article Ref: IV0310-2123



http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0310-2123


"...The level of hypocrisy, double-talk and the neo-Pharaonic display of might, practiced by the Bush (Jr.) Administration, is sufficient to make any decent, peace-loving person question his/her fundamental belief in the goodness of human nature. Truly, there is no system more corrupt and more hypocritical than a system that represents itself as the example of justice, the example of freedom, the example of democracy, the example of human rights and can go all over this earth telling other people how to strengthen out their houses, how to manage their affairs, how to abide by international laws while it does exactly the opposite - defying international laws, courting authoritarian regimes, bugging its own citizenry, misleading all humanity, denying basic human rights and setting precedence for pre-emptive strikes as if we are living in caves in pre-historic times..."


(Omar note: Please note view of US outside our borders...)


"...What message is Bush trying to send to the rest of the world, especially to the Muslim world? Is it kosher to strike any country and ignore international laws? What does it do to his ignoble image or to the so-called roadmap for Palestine? (He is perceived by most people living outside the U.S. as the greatest threat to humanity, a Hitler-in-the-making, far worse than Bin Ladin is.)..."



"noisily" along...

Omard




[Edit]
"Toast..." ...anyone? -- Omard, 14:23:31 10/30/03 Thu

Far more future "Terrorism" is being generated by the US (and "allies") then that being currently "subdued." --- The hatred being generated from, will take many, many generations to eventually be smoothed over...(if ever...)

There is only one "ending" possible for the US in the ME...and it is big, bad and ugly.


US policy has isolated only one extremist group - its own -- October 31, 2003

smh.com


...The Bush Administration's policy behaviour has turned Iraq into a dangerous battleground between two extremist groups - the reborn Christians and neo-conservatives who dominate the Administration, and al-Qaeda and its supporters who have gained an unprecedented degree of acceptability in the Muslim world - over the future of world order. This constitutes a clash of extremisms from which nobody will benefit, least of all the United States...

...The UN knows that had it not been for the Iraqi resistance defining the limits of US power, the Bush Administration would have never come back to the UN for help, allowing the world body to restore its pre-Iraq war stature in world politics.

The biggest damage that the Gulf War and its aftermath have inflicted is on the US. It has weakened its political credibility as the world's most powerful state and confronted it with more, rather than less, danger from international terrorism.

Bush's policy approach, driven more by a minority of neo-conservative and Christian ideologues than the mainstream in US politics, has involved the US in a conflict from which al-Qaeda and its supporters stand to gain more than the world's only superpower. And those US allies who have supported this policy bear as much responsibility as Bush for dangerously enabling two pools of extremists - one from the Islamic side, another from Western side - to have a determining role in shaping our future....



WHY IT WILL NOT END!!!

In the Beginning, There Was Terror
by: Ronald Bleier


Israeli terrorism


A great "toasting" coming...

OmarD



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