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EagleRanch PRIMARY Forum 1
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Welcome to EagleRanch PRIMARY Forum 1

** FAQ & Guidelines **
winners and losers in globalism -- qwerty, 17:37:55 10/22/03 Wed

interview was in 1994 ... some excerpts

pretty much on the mark nearly 10 years later

===
Sir James GoldsmithÆs claim to fame in the 1980s was as a corporate raider; he cemented his reputation as an extraordinarily shrewd businessperson when he sold his stocks in the days before the 1987 stock market crash. He is now a Member of the European Parliament, President of the Parliamentary group LÆEurope des Nations and a member of the Parliamentary Committee concerned with global trade, the Committee on External Economic Relations. He is also the Chief Executive Officer of the Goldsmith Foundation, EuropeÆs largest privately-funded charity specializing in supporting environmental causes

MM: WonÆt high tech jobs replace those that move offshore?

Goldsmith: High tech industries can, indeed, survive and prosper under these circumstances. That is because they are highly automated and therefore employ only a few people. So labor is a minor item in the overall cost of the products that they make. But obviously the fact that they employ very few people means that they are incapable of employing very many. As soon as they need to employ many, they will be forced to move offshore. For example, IBM is moving its disk drive business from America and Western Europe to low labor cost countries. Boeing has also announced that it will transfer to China production of parts of certain of its planes to China.

In France, proponents of global free trade constantly say that the exporting of such high tech products as very fast trains, airplanes and satellites will create jobs on a large scale. Alas, this is not true. The recent $2.1 billion contract selling very fast French trains to South Korea has resulted in the maintenance for four years of only 800 jobs in France : 535 for the main supplier and 265 for the subcontractors. Much of the work is carried out in Korea by Asian companies using Asian labor. What is more, following the transfer of technology to South Korea, in a few years time Asia will be able to buy very fast trains directly from South Korea and bypass France. As for planes and satellites, the numbers employed in this industry in France have fallen consistently. Over the 5 years from 1987 to 1992, they have fallen from 123,000 employees to 111,000 and are forecast to fall to 102,000 in the short term.



MM: WonÆt the growth of the service sector compensate for the jobs lost in manufacturing?

Goldsmith: I am afraid that even service industries will be subjected to substantial transfers of employment to low-cost areas. Today through satellites you can remain in constant contact with offices in distant lands. That means that companies employing large back offices can close them and shift employment to low-cost areas. SWISSAIR has recently transferred a significant part of its accounts department to India, for example.



MM: But certain services such as health and education, cannot be transferred overseas, can they?

Goldsmith: A nationÆs economy is split into two broad segments, one which produces wealth and the other which dispenses it. That in no way means that the latter is inferior. It includes such vital activities as health and education. But one cannot reduce that part of our economy which produces wealth and expect to be able to maintain the other part which dispenses it. You must earn what you spend.

MM: Proponents of GATT claim it will spur growth, citing, for example, the joint study published by the OECD and the World Bank which states that the application of the GATT proposals would increase world income by $213 billion a year. How can we turn down such growth?

Goldsmith: If you study the facts, you will find that the increase is forecast to come about in 10 years time. Two hundred and thirteen billion dollars is a large sum of money, but to assess its significance you must compare it to the worldÆs GNP as it is forecast to be in 10 years time. Two hundred and thirteen billion dollars is no more than 0.7 percent of the worldÆs anticipated GNP. What is more, the General Secretary of the OECD described the report as being "highly theoretical."



MM: How do you respond to GATT proponentsÆ claims that free trade will enable consumers to benefit from being able to buy cheaper imported products manufactured with low-cost labor?

Goldsmith: Consumers are not just people who buy products, they are also the same people who earn a living by working, and who pay taxes. As consumers they may be able to buy certain products cheaper, although when Nike moved its manufacturing from the United States to Asia, shoe prices did not drop. Profit margins rose. But the real cost of apparently cheaper goods will be that people will lose their jobs, get paid less for their work and have to face higher taxes to cover the social cost of increased unemployment. Consumers are also citizens, many of whom live in towns. As unemployment rises and poverty increases, the towns will grow even more unstable. So the benefits of cheap imported products will be heavily outweighed by the consequent social and economic costs.



MM: Why will GATT reduce earnings?

Goldsmith: According to figures published by the U.S. Department of Labor, since 1973, in inflation-adjusted dollars, real hourly and weekly earnings in the United States have already dropped by an average of 16.4 percent, and that was before the most recent GATT negotiations known as the Uruguay Round. If populations of 4 billion people enter the workforce and are willing to offer their labor at a fraction of the price paid to workers in the developed world, it is obvious that such a massive increase in supply will reduce the value of labor. Also, it will take away practically all negotiating power from organized labor. When trade unions ask for concessions, the answer will be: "If you put too much pressure on us, we will move offshore where we can get much cheaper labor, which does not seek protection, long holidays, and all the other items that you want to negotiate."

You must understand that global free trade will brutally shatter the way in which value-added is shared between capital and labor. Value-added is the increase of value obtained when you convert raw materials into a manufactured product. In a mature society such as our own, we have been able to develop a general agreement as to how it should be shared between labor and capital. That agreement has been reached through generations of political debate, elections, strikes, lockouts and other conflicts. Overnight that agreement will be destroyed by the arrival of huge populations willing to deeply undercut the salaries earned by our workforces. The social division that this will engender will be deeper than anything envisaged by Marx in the nineteenth century.




MM: Who will be the winners and losers under a system of global free trade?

Goldsmith: The losers will, of course, be those who become unemployed as a result of production being moved offshore. They would also be those who lose their jobs because their companies do not move offshore and are not able to compete with cheap imported products. Finally, they will be all those affected by the reduction in their earning capacity following the shift in the sharing of value- added.

The winners will be those who can benefit from an almost inexhaustible supply of very cheap labor. They will be the companies who move their production offshore to low-cost areas; the companies who will benefit from paying lower salaries at home; and those who have capital to invest offshore, and who will receive larger dividends as a result of the very low-cost labor. But they would be like the winners of a poker game on the Titanic. The wounds inflicted on their societies would be too deep to be acceptable without brutal consequences.

It should also be remembered that one of the characteristics of developing countries is that a small handful of people control the overwhelming majority of their nationÆs resources. It is these people who own the major part of their nationÆs industrial, commercial and financial enterprises and who assemble the cheap labor which is used to manufacture products for the developed world. Thus, it is the poor in the rich countries who will subsidize the rich in the poor countries. This will have a deep impact on the social cohesion of nations.

MM: But why do Third World nations themselves support global free trade?

Goldsmith: You must distinguish between the populations on the one hand and their ruling elites on the other. As I explained earlier, it is these elites which are in favor of global free trade. It is they who will be enriched. Visit India and you will find that there have been demonstrations of up to one million people opposing the destruction of their rural communities, their culture and their traditions. In the Philippines , several hundred thousand farmers protested against GATT because it would destroy their agriculture.


===

[Edit]
Nickel -- volavka, 16:56:24 10/22/03 Wed

feel the pain yet:
http://www.lme.co.uk/nickel.asp

[Edit]
Kanarowski Silver Article -- auspec, 16:49:40 10/22/03 Wed

Previously put up by {Scoop} Murray. He's always about 24 hours ahead of me in time.........what's w that? smile

[Edit]
A limit move now -- volavka, 16:25:35 10/22/03 Wed

would put dec @ 461.80
Feel the pain...

[Edit]
Silver Article -- auspec, 15:32:17 10/22/03 Wed

The following snippet is from the Kanarowski article at G-E:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/kanarowski102203pv.html

{Fair use copyright........purely educational...not for medicinal use}

Do you think that the white metal has greater potential than gold in the precious metals market?

A great deal of the information about silver can be classified under two broad headings. One, how is silver LIKE gold? Two, how is silver DIFFERENT than gold? When it comes to a discussion of which metal can be expected to have the greatest percentage increase, it is within this second category where the answer will be found.

There are a great many ways that silver is different from gold and it would behoove the potential silver investor to investigate all of the differences. However, for purposes of this discussion, I will only list some of the most meaningful.

Gold is mined and accumulated. Silver is mined, consumed in micro amounts and then lost. Thus, the above ground stockpile of gold is GROWING, while the above ground stockpile of silver is SHRINKING. Presently there may be ten times more gold than silver in above ground stocks — a ratio that is widening by the day.

Gold has few meaningful industrial uses. Silver is perhaps the most versatile metal on the planet and it usually has no substitutes. As such, it is indispensable to modern civilizations.

Because gold's price has been NEAR or ABOVE its production cost for so long, there are HUNDREDS of gold projects on the books. But, there are only TENS of silver projects due to the lengthy period of prices BELOW production costs.

Gold comes from gold mines, but 70 to 80% of our silver comes from by-product production: copper, lead, zinc and gold mines. Therefore, higher silver prices will not result in a proportional increase in production.

In general geologic terms, the deeper you go in a gold mine, the richer the grade. The deeper you go in a silver mine, the weaker the grade. Therefore, most of the world's silver deposits that are found near surface have already been discovered and have been mined out.

Unlike gold, there are no known large inventories that can be dumped in the event of a run-away silver market.

What does this body of facts imply? That in some respects, silver is very different from gold — almost the opposite. And, silver will VASTLY outperform gold on a percentage basis over the next several years.

END

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Comment: More confirmation that silver is richer at surface than at depth. If "70 to 80%" of silver is secondarily produced that means that 20 to 30% is primarily produced so it is not like there is NO primary mined silver. Please remember, also, that all these variables will change as the POS increases. Meaning that projects will be viable for primary silver mining at higher silver prices. Primary silver will increase but for the most part secondary silver mining will remain mostly the same because the silver component won't change the overall profitability that much.

Has the "easy" silver been picked over? Yes, of course it has. The majority of the earth's land surfaces have had some degree of geological analysis. New primary silver mines are much more likely to come as a result of POS increasing and affecting the economics of a previously explored property than as a result of brand new discoveries.

Nuggets? They certainly exist according to Murray's links, they're simply MUCH rarer than gold nuggets, right?

Gold is approaching the point that the Cubbies and Sox approached last week..........a mere scant outs {dollars} from the promised land. I so much look forward to EW capitulation that I can taste it. At some point some projections for POS or POG are pure and simple nonsense. 50c silver for prime example. Unfortunately it can take decades to discredit some of these EW predictions.

[Edit]
The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly -- RossL, 14:39:33 10/22/03 Wed






Audio clip for background music while viewing the charts:
The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly



[Edit]
Some Good Advice On P.M. Investing From Dr. Richard Appel. -- beesting, 12:37:13 10/22/03 Wed

URL to full article a recommened read: http://www.kitco.com/ind/Appel/oct222003.html


In the case of futures contracts the person is not only liable for
his committed margin, but also for all losses that may occur while
he holds the contract. In early 1980, the rules regarding silver
were changed on the Comex. Silver had run from about $15 to
over $50 in the space of only several months. When silver
passed $50 the Comex officials mandated that the exchange
would only accept orders for liquidation. This forced the longs to
sell as no new buy orders could be entered. The result of this
rule change was that silver plummeted! It went limit down for a
number of days until it again resumed trading in the mid-$30
range. The longs, who earlier had amassed substantial profits,
were then faced with staggering losses as they could not exit
their trades. They were locked in! Each contract consisted of
5,000 ounces of silver. Thus, when silver fell from over $50 to
below $40, the longs lost over $50,000 per contract. Numerous
individuals went bankrupt overnight. This is not to say that such
an event will be repeated. However, when trading futures,
recognize that one’s losses are not limited to their margin
requirements.

FINANCIAL INSIGHTS is written and published by Dr.
Richard Appel and is made available for informational purposes
only.

[Edit]
wow -- volavka, 10:19:09 10/22/03 Wed

some serious colonics going on.

[Edit]
dec close -- volavka, 10:02:49 10/22/03 Wed

looking for 396.00

[Edit]
dec close -- volavka, 10:02:24 10/22/03 Wed

looking for 396.00

[Edit]
Next super tech -- volavka, 09:06:33 10/22/03 Wed

http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/fitzgerald1103.asp

gold recovery/navy/mit kid coming also.

[Edit]
Carbs/energy -- volavka, 08:52:02 10/22/03 Wed

eliminate the garbage: cut body fat to 5 percent try this:

5 egg whites
1/2 cup oatmeal
1 tsp splenda
1 tsp cinnamon

mix: makes 4 pancakes.

[Edit]
Beans in the teens -- volavka, 08:31:06 10/22/03 Wed

silver too:

http://charts3.barchart.com/chart.asp?sym=SF4&data=A&jav=adv&vol=Y&evnt=adv&grid=Y&code=BSTK&org=stk&fix=

[Edit]
reporters -- volavka, 08:04:42 10/22/03 Wed

anyone notice all the Gold Ties on news reporters.

[Edit]
buy stops above -- volavka, 06:26:51 10/22/03 Wed

let's go cry babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edit]
We wait -- volavka, 06:13:36 10/22/03 Wed

Specifically, we intend to put the court in the position where it knows that if it dismisses our claims it will be broadcasting, not only to the American People, but to the entire world, that government based upon the consent of the People is a quaint anachronism in America, that the American People have no way remaining to peacefully enforce their Rights, that the People of America are no longer free, that the government of the United States has seized the ultimate power from the People, that after 225 years the government of the United States of America has decided to downgrade the Republic, that it will no longer accept being limited by a written Constitution and that the government intends to devalue the United States of America by dropping it down into the ranks of the world’s socialist democracies.
By great intent and design, we have insured that only a single question declaring the sovereignty of the People through the Right of Petition is before the court. There are no questions about “Section 861”. There are no questions about tax liability. There are no questions about the definition of “income.”

There is only a single question – and in the answer to that question there can be NO middle ground. The people either enjoy sovereignty over servant government or they do not. Our servant government must answer the People’s Petitions or we will have been reduced to rely on the ballot for the protection of our Rights, as is the case in socialist democracies. Either we have the ability to peaceably enforce our Rights through Petition or we do not.

Should the courts dismiss our claim, the US Government will, by definition, be inviting Americans to resort to extraordinary means in defense of their Rights and Freedom. Is this moment in history distinguishable from the events leading up to our Founding Fathers’ frustrated encounters with King George?

CASE DETAILS:

http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/Update10-20-03.htm

[Edit]
There exists a way to sell silver for over $100 an ounce. -- Cor Tauri, 04:23:30 10/22/03 Wed

I saw so many posts about silver, and I was thinking about silver so much just now, that I thought I would post about it.
I noticed the price of silver and gold has gone up overnight. I view that as very unfortunate. I have changed sides on the silver issue. In the past I was purchasing silver as a safe-haven, investment sort of thing. I ended up with so much silver that at some point I decided to make things out of it. I am learning to make jewelry. I have made several pieces already, and they are pretty good considering how new to it I am.
Before they went to bed, my wife and sons helped me draw wire. I have an inexpensive rolling mill and drawplate. We have need of fine silver wire for making jump rings to make whats called a loop in loop chain. I also alloy my silver to make sterling sometimes. Someone mentioned Tulving and thats funny, because the silver I am melting and pouring into my little ingot mold comes from the last batch of silver I purchased from Tulving. I think I paid around $4.60 or so for the rounds, I don't remember. Another silver project that is on my mind is the creation of a pendant for my Mother in Law. A package of garnets and some other stones will arrive soon. I fear that if and when exchange controls and or terrible import duties are put in place, I will be unable to get gemstones from Sri Lanka and Thailand. I worry that silver will go up so much in price that I will be unable to get more at a reasonable price. I am concerned that the price of gold is rising just as I always hoped it would. But I have yet to work in gold and I wanted to do that too.
As I said, I have changed sides. I am now a silver user, a very small silver user, but silver is no longer an investment to me, it is the raw material from which I work my art. I never thought I would be an artist, but really at this late hour of our Republic what else is there to do?
I have worked in service industries all my working life. I still do. I never really produced anything. Over the past six months or so, I have learned to forge, braze, fuse and patinate silver. I have learned to make bezels and set gemstones. Soon I will learn to set very small gemstones, and perhaps do claw mountings and flush setting. This past evening, however, I made wire. My son held the drawplate, and I pulled. It's good wire, it will be good to make more.
I am starting to understand things. The silver wire for instance. It exists, but it wouldn't exist if it wasn't for me, my son, someone who made the cheap drawplate, Hans Tulving who provided the silver, someone who mined the silver, and made the equipment I use, the people who told me how to do it, and the people who gave me the confidence to begin learning all these things, several of which are posters here at ER, though I doubt they realize it.

I hope I havn't rambled on too much. There seem to be so few posts these days. I enjoy reading what everyone here writes. If anyone is interested in learning how jewelry is made there is a very good website at http://www.ganoksin.com/

Best Regards

[Edit]
Silver - Butler -- Netking, 02:51:48 10/22/03 Wed

http://www.investmentrarities.com/10-21-03.html

"...the five most frightening words on Wall Street are "Eliot Spitzer on line one." If the silver market has been manipulated, as I allege, Mr. Spitzer's presence could change that...."

"....I think timing is tantamount to luck, but I think price is everything. At $5, silver can't lose 98% of its value. At this point, I have trouble visualizing how it can lose more than 10% of its value. This is the most important thing I can say about real silver. It can't hurt you financially. It can reward you spectacularly. I'll be honest, it would ruin my life, or at least ruin my own impression of myself forever, if I ever caused anyone to lose 98% of their capital on what I represented was a good, solid investment. That's not going to happen with paid-for, real silver. Maybe if you buy it at $200 per ounce, but not at $5.

When silver launches from five dollars, it will become a hold, not a buy, until it becomes a sale. As a fundamental, value-oriented analyst, I will not be urging you to buy it all the way up. I will be urging you (most likely) to hold that which you were fortunate enough to buy when price and risk were low. And agonizing over when to sell. But first things, first. You can't hold, for what may be a very long time, and agonize over not selling too soon, unless you have first bought wisely. The time for buying wisely is now...."

[Edit]
Current POG, POS, POP & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 01:51:03 10/22/03 Wed

US$/POG: from www.kitco.comUS$/POS: from www.kitco.comEURO/POG: from www.kitco.com[Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]




LbS/POG: from www.kitco.com London Fix: from www.kitco.com LbS/POS: from www.kitco.com



US$/POP: from www.kitco.com
US$/POP: from www.kitco.com


[Edit]
certin.. -- ..certain, 01:08:24 10/22/03 Wed

typo..

[Edit]
Sentimental About Silver.. -- Rex, 01:03:31 10/22/03 Wed

@ Netking, SLATT, Galearis, beesting, auspec, and others who might post further info
later regarding my "question" about silver. Thanks for your interesting posts.

It's almost an enigmatic paradox, silver. While in the early eras, it was apparently
near-surface abundant; relatively easily refined into useable metal; was indeed rare
to find in nugget or dust formats as was common with gold. Much was produced.

And, apparently, in these later times, less abundant; needing more complex refining;
digging deeper; and comensurate energy requirements to achieve useful metal and purity.
And many say, nowadays underproduced, or overconsumed by a wide margin.

With the only economical way to produce it is as a byproduct of other metals mining.

Yet we've seen in that often-posted (even linked at ER's CHARTs Page) 600-year silver
price chart, it has steadily declined in value to what's essentially ludicrous today.

Laughable, I mean, in that it cannot be right, or even partly reflect silver's true
worth. When one considers the costs involved in producing it. Just the energy cost
alone would seem to justify far higher prices for .999 refined silver.

Too, I guess that could be said of ALL precious metals, especially platinum group,
that they all would eventually rise by a factor more reflective of their energy costs.

Platinum, probably being the only one that has achieved recently near all-time highs,
whether because of scarcity; demand; refining costs; or maybe just excessive speculation
in the paper commodity markets. Who can ever know? It may be the best investment of all.

It's odd, too, how little is ever said or posted about platinum in all these PM forums.
Here, we daily, hourly, track gold and silver prices and yet nobody says anything about
those that trade at more honest pricings. Are we missing something?

So to me, silver is a mysterious, puzzling anomoly in valuation. Is there a shortage,
or not? Any day of the week, Tulving can supply all we'd ever need at historic low prices.
How can that be?

I suppose we'll never know, and there are as many points of view and opinions to "explain"
the unexplainable as the number of real silver coins in a dirt-cheap 40 or 90 percent bag.

The thought crossed my mind, as I read and digested most of the links etc posted, that
silver should still have great value. I mean, in 1880 a silver dollar coin was exactly
that. A dollar of real money. And so, today, if we had or used those same coins as money,
they should..SHOULD..have the same purchasing power. Adjusted for inflation, that's $17.

Maybe that's why I tend to favor the old percent-silver bags. To me, they reflect the old
days, when money was money, honest money, and there was a certin beauty in that. I guess
I'm just sentimental.

..Rx

[Edit]
beesting -- auspec, 19:07:07 10/21/03 Tue

Of course, silver as well as gold will form a suspension...........ala colloidal silver or colloidal gold. No? Same thing.

[Edit]
stratfor -- qwerty, 18:15:45 10/21/03 Tue

sinclair did print the stratfor analysis

stratfor keeps people dumb down about the big picture of foreign policy through distractions and omission

when the nwo senses people looking for news outside the system, they will create or put forth a media vehicle to deliver what people want although it will be delivered with taint ... they seem to do general political & psychological profiles of their target audience ...

stratfor like other info sources can be useful but one needs to know their real agenda

[Edit]
Midas -- auspec, 15:26:25 10/21/03 Tue

"JUST IN 4:00 CDT – my source tells me THE STALKER was a big buyer today in the physical market, embarking on his second tranche. You might recall we reported THE STALKER bought $4.6 billion worth of gold a ways back and was going to buy $1.6 billion more. This second tranche of buying is underway and was a major reason gold was so strong. It is anticipated it will take days to fill the order."

END

Comment: Nice to have friends in high places even if their identity is not fully known. Dr H or whoever.........thanks! Time for gold bugs to shift out of depressive gear back into manic gear. Overdrive works for me. Sinclair believes gold will fly through $400 if the gold advisors don't pull the plug. I wonder if he believes EVERY gold "advisor" is beyond the reach of those who suppress gold as a way of life........??

Good info being dug out here @ ER re surface silver..THANKS!

[Edit]
Silver & Gold Dissolves -- beesting, 13:37:59 10/21/03 Tue

Hi Galearis.....Good informative post on "Native" Silver.
This part of your post really caught my attention because it rekindled an old memory:
(Snip)
Native silver just dissolves away in the streams and rivers due to dissolved gases in the
water in addition to the abrasive environment found there.
(Unsnip)
..........And I might add is eventually washed/drained into the oceans of the world.

Long ago I worked with a former mineral assayer who was responsible for getting me interested in Gold/Silver/precious metals.
It was from him that I first heard the words," There is more Gold in a cubic mile of ocean water than all the Gold in Fort Knox."
Being young and naive I asked how that could be possible since Gold is much heavier than water and would sink to the lowest point.
He very patiently explained the Gold is in a state of emulsion or suspension(dissolved) since it has been obsorbed over eons of time with a certain type of gas which is found in the earths crust and very readily mixes with water. I think the gas was called "Fluorine"(not 100% sure) which is an element.
Dictionary definition FLUORINE: a nonmetallic univalent halogen element that is normally a pale yellowish flamible irritating toxic gas.

So naturally the problems encountered when trying to precipitate the Gold or Silver from concentrated ocean water would probably require first isolating the "Flourine/Gold/Silver" solution and then separating the flourine from the Gold/Silver and whatever else might also be in a dissolved state.
Apparently it has been done but on a large scale the cost would far exceed the value of the Gold/Silver recovered.

Now if Gold goes to $3,500.00 per ounce and Silver to
$100.00 or more, and fiat paper is still used as money.......And could be printed by the truckload....maybe some entrepreneurs will proceed with the process on a commercial scale???

...........beesting.

[Edit]
More crybabies -- volavka, 12:49:52 10/21/03 Tue

You all knew the stoppers where set @ 10.00 levels and you just don't have the guts to run'um.
Okay gap it up thru 385 will blow thru 388 and off to 425.

I can wait. I've got nothing but time and nothing on margin.
Raise the margin to 20,000 a contract, I'm ready...

[Edit]
Home sweet Home -- volavka, 11:45:14 10/21/03 Tue

http://www.fin-info.com/$main$nobody,,16863246$c049617e7623/press_release.phtml?symbol=MDW&_time=20031021134359

[Edit]
Dr Hwang say: -- volavka, 11:03:27 10/21/03 Tue

Western world in deep shit now.

China will join force with India...

Now dig deep for those deep reserves...

[Edit]
china auto market -- qwerty, 10:22:54 10/21/03 Tue

===
IN FIVE YEARS China will become Asia’s largest automotive market, pushing ahead of Japan, predicted “Frederick Henderson, Asia-Pacific president for the U.S. auto giant. Henderson was speaking at a meeting of international executives on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit, being held in the Thai capital.
“Looking at the next 10 years, we see China being an engine of growth across the world,” Henderson said

===

it's truly amazing seeing the US middle class continue to mindlessly vote democrat and republican ...

voting in arnold to bless the 50 billion dollar energy theft from californians and then seeing him put the same crooks who pulled of the last one is utterly amazing

the middle class continues to pound nails into their own coffins

[Edit]
@ Rex and Net king re: "native" silver -- Galearis, 10:12:46 10/21/03 Tue

The question:
"Someone please correct me, but I was of the impression that
silver does not occur in a natural "refined" state.
ie: as gold does, in the form of nuggets or solid veins.."

I haven't followed the links posted by Murray but in hope that I can add to the knowledge base here: silver does occur in the "native" or elemental form - but not in "naturally refined" form (smile). It is mined in high-grade veins mixed with often an interesting assemblage of secondary silver minerals, and (often) cobalt and or nickel sulphide and arsenide gangue minerals. It sometimes found with native copper (Michigan) called "half breeds" as metal fillings of vesicles and veins in lavas. It is also found in high-grade native gold as a natural alloy called electrum - usually 10 to 15% of the substance of this free gold metal form is silver and a little platinum and (sometimes) tellurium.... The primary silver deposits, however, are the product of hydrothermal/epithermal events and are referred to as "surface mines" in comparison to emplacement or replacement ore bodies of base metal mines that also produce silver. The primary ore bodies are supposedly the ones that are becoming rare these days......

Virtually all the early silver and gold mines involved the elemental forms of the metal. Low tech cultures had little recourse.

The interesting thing about silver, the mineral, is its rarity. It is, as you know highly reactive (that tarnish you see on the family silver is silver sulphide) and that one finds native (elemental) silver at all in mineable quantities is delicious mineralogically speaking. Most of the time these primary mines (Mexican mines are common examples) are rich, but in secondary minerals, argentite being the most "common", with about 65% silver composition.
Native silver, when present, is there but in much smaller percentages.

The highly reactive properties of silver also precludes it being found, like gold, in nugget form in old and new placer deposits. Silver nuggets are all but unknown in nature; I can think of only one instance... Native silver just dissolves away in the streams and rivers due to dissolved gases in the water in addition to the abrasive environment found there.

Hope this is helpful....

Best regards,

G.

[Edit]
What next? -- Frisco Fred, 10:01:16 10/21/03 Tue


Omar's post reminded me of an unusual experience I had in a department store yesterday. Walking toward me was a gentleman, not finely dressed, but not shabbily dressed either. As I neared him I saw a yellow object attached to his blue shirt on his left chest. As we walked closer, I could easily see what the yellow object was. It was a yellow Star of David with "JUDE" written across it. I stopped (not very polite, I suppose) and said, "Excuse me, sir, but I was interested in your Star of David." He replied, "I wear it so they will always know who and where I am and not have to come looking for me." Then he walked away. Maybe he knows what we only think.

It's an ill wind,
FF

[Edit]
just another dull day for gold -- qwerty, 09:53:26 10/21/03 Tue

zzzzz zzzzz zzzzz

remember all you sellers, sell into strength

don't be a dodo head and sell when it gets to 370

good day to sell

[Edit]
10.00 jumps -- volavka, 06:13:29 10/21/03 Tue

blocks of stops in increments of 10.00 higher. run 'um

[Edit]
Snowpeas -- volavka, 05:54:22 10/21/03 Tue

crunch time for snow/bush...
cover dollar with 30 percent gold back or die...

[Edit]
earily again -- volavka, 05:43:29 10/21/03 Tue

Like china I move slow, must be old, sunday nites gold move, ready..

[Edit]
Rex -- SLATT, 05:15:41 10/21/03 Tue

Virtually all silver produced prior to 120 years ago was mined in the metallic state.

[Edit]
If the shoe fits.... -- OmarD, 04:42:21 10/21/03 Tue


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources/message/43359


What is
Fascism?

This may surprise most educated people. One of the more common government strategies today, especially in developing regions is fascism. Fascism is commonly confused with Nazism. Nazism is a political party platform that embraces a combination of a military dictatorship, socialism and fascism. It is not a government structure. Fascism is a government structure. The most notable characteristic of a fascist country is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population based upon superficial qualities or belief systems.

[snip]


The 14 Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
by Dr. Lawrence Britt


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. TOP

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. TOP

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. [environmentalists?]

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. TOP

5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution. TOP

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. TOP

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. TOP

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. TOP

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. TOP

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed. TOP

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked. TOP

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. TOP

14. Fraudulent Elections -
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. TOP

-----------

Rgds,

OmarD



[Edit]
Silver - Financial Sense -- Netking, 04:04:03 10/21/03 Tue

OR

Silver - The next big thing in the global markets? by Douglas Kanarowski

"...Gold is mined and accumulated. Silver is mined, consumed in micro amounts and then lost. Thus, the above ground stockpile of gold is GROWING, while the above ground stockpile of silver is SHRINKING. Presently there may be ten times more gold than silver in above ground stocks — a ratio that is widening by the day.

Gold has few meaningful industrial uses. Silver is perhaps the most versatile metal on the planet and it usually has no substitutes. As such, it is indispensable to modern civilizations.

Because gold's price has been NEAR or ABOVE its production cost for so long, there are HUNDREDS of gold projects on the books. But, there are only TENS of silver projects due to the lengthy period of prices BELOW production costs.

Gold comes from gold mines, but 70 to 80% of our silver comes from by-product production: copper, lead, zinc and gold mines. Therefore, higher silver prices will not result in a proportional increase in production.

In general geologic terms, the deeper you go in a gold mine, the richer the grade. The deeper you go in a silver mine, the weaker the grade. Therefore, most of the world's silver deposits that are found near surface have already been discovered and have been mined out.

Unlike gold, there are no known large inventories that can be dumped in the event of a run-away silver market.

What does this body of facts imply? That in some respects, silver is very different from gold — almost the opposite. And, silver will VASTLY outperform gold on a percentage basis over the next several years...."



[Edit]
25 billion reasons . . . . -- Netking, 03:45:36 10/21/03 Tue

It has been suggested that seawater contains 10 trillion dollars(US) worth, though in somewhat dilute concentrations. Certain bacteria are believed to have been involved in the precipitation of gold out of dilute hydrothermal solutions. A possible avenue for commercially viable gold recovery from seawater might involve such a bacterium, or a specifically engineered microbe.

Reported values for the concentration of gold in seawater have ranged from 5 to 50 ppt, with the average concentration at about 13 ppt. Some of the highest concentrations recently reported have come from seawater samples taken from the Bering Sea at 50 ppt.

The sea water of the Earth's oceans contain about 25 billion ounces of gold (Burk 1989*). If the ability of some of these bacteria to concentrate gold around their cell membranes to the degree that they form massively dense agglomerations of hollow gold microtubuals, as the evidence suggests, then perhaps a similar bacterium may find a practical application in sea water.

http://www.goldfever.com/gold_sea.htm#Burk

Written by Timothy McNulty - Copyright 1994 - Fair use snip's copied.

* [Burk, Maksymilian (1989) Gold, Silver and Uranium from Seas and Oceans, ARDOR Publishing, Los Angeles, CA.]

It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

[Edit]
Slatt -- number six, 03:04:36 10/21/03 Tue

For sure there are lots of pm deposits under the sea, and there they will remain for the foreseeable future. The amazing Howard Hughes once set about to do seafloor mining, but he was really mining for a sunken Russian sub. The price per ounce would have to be pretty magnificent before seafloor mining becomes a substantial market force. Unless free energy of some sort is harnessed, which should make gold cheap as dirt anyhow due to seawater mining. It would change everything. So, free energy -...now is there any kooky idea I haven't brought into this topic yet?

As for the cheap & easy pm's being mined allready... well of course they have. As our tech advances it gets "easier" to mine miles underground or to profit from sub-1g/ton au open pits, but the amounts of effort and energy involved in these processes... they're the polar opposite of easy.

Were these early easy surface finds SOOO rich that they could account for Guyatt's numbers? I wouldn't think so. They must be somewhat analogous to the occasional great surface finds today in remote unexplored places, and none of these are particularly earth shattering. (Although get back to me in a month about that one.)

[Edit]
bulldustorm -- number six, 02:38:57 10/21/03 Tue

I mean goldustorm, ;) I don't want you to think I'm very heavily invested in this theory about antidiluvian pm miners and their possible prodigious finds. I was just pointing out that our ideas about historical production MIGHT be out of whack if our ideas about history are also wrong. Maybe there were civilised people back then when there was 10-20% more land to explore, so maybe those lands which are now ocean hide SOME of the mine workings needed to account for Guyatt's crazy numbers. But like Endgame says, this is pyramiding one far-out theory upon another. At a stretch, it might actually mean historical production was ~10% higher than we'd thought, which is probably within our wiggle-range anyhow.

As for the gold sinking, I was assuming it would be the first thing anyone took with them when escaping to higher lands. The end of the ice age was a 5-10,000 year process, so usually there was time to escape. Although in some cases it was a very dramatic process - huge freshwater lakes formed as the miles-deep ice packs melted. These would eventually break through to the oceans in a most cataclysmic manner, sending 1000ft waves bursting along and gouging their way over everything.

But whether pm mining began at a respectable ~3000 bc or at the radical >10,000 bc, there was still the same amount waiting for us initially. Just how much, I'm not sure.

If you want to use the ancient world to explain a spare 40 bil ounces, then you still have to postulate an extremely long-running & elaborate scheme to support the price - DeBeers style,- by deluding everyone about stockpiles and by limiting supply to the market. Even the Oppenheimers realised that's too much hard work and it's easier to diversify into easier scams like banking, (Oppy's own HSBC, right? And Anglogold come to think of it.)

Anyhow, when my number one holding imxpf.ob comes through with amazing results in a month or so, (thereby finding 1 or 2 billion "hidden" ounces of ag, ;) ) I'll then be able to afford to scuba at some of these lost places, and I'll report back to you on any headframes or semi-autogenous mills that I might spot.

[Edit]
Rex etc - Ag Nuggets -- Netking, 00:46:13 10/21/03 Tue

Good evening, good question/s but it would seem the answer is "yes", maybe Galearis our friend from the north would be more qualified to speak on this than me, or Au_Nuggets. Anyway the info in the short link below may be of some use :-)

Keep Watching the Ground! . . .In the Nevada silver rush, treasure lay right at your feet

Horn silver from Broken Hill, Australia

[Edit]
Silver Nuggets? Never Heard of Them.. -- Rex, 23:44:59 10/20/03 Mon

Someone please correct me, but I was of the impression that
silver does not occur in a natural "refined" state.
ie: as gold does, in the form of nuggets or solid veins..

Silver is always found/mined in a condition that needs further complex refining?

[Edit]
Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 23:34:57 10/20/03 Mon











US$/POG: from www.kitco.com US$/POS: from www.kitco.com EURO/POG: from www.kitco.com [Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]










LbS/POG: from www.kitco.com London Fix: from www.kitco.com LbS/POS: from www.kitco.com


[Edit]
DC Electricity Directly from Flowing Water.. -- Rex, 23:32:39 10/20/03 Mon

..With no other moving parts..

Electrokinetic Energy

News item dated Oct 20 2003..

{snip}
A team of Canadian scientists has discovered a new
way to make electricity from flowing water..

The breakthrough could provide free, clean energy for
devices such as..

Electricity is generated as the water is released and
surges through an array of tiny microchannels.

The system relies on the natural "electrokinetic" effect
of a fluid flowing over a solid surface.

Millions of channels can produce enough power to
operate..
{unsnips}

[Edit]
WRONG (sigh) -- SLATT, 22:51:53 10/20/03 Mon

"All this means is that the easiest stuff and likely the most abundant was long ago pocketed. Rich stuff way beyond what is commonly found now and lots of it. Why not?"

This quote represents a myopia all too common in the PM investment community.

"easiest stuff"- that assumes much. Usually said in the context of some boob bending down to throw their back out trying to heft a large "nugget". The easiest stuff has yet to be mined. It is dependent upon the price of the metal vs. the cost of mining.

"most abundant"- this is simply wrong. Roughly 25% of the earth's surface is terra firma. Writing off 75% of the surface of the earth is foolhardy considering large areas of terra firma have not been investigated, particularly at depth.

"rich stuff"- in what context? More metal per ton than today? More total production? I submit that greater amounts of precious metals are being produced today than at any time in the known history of man.

The major impediment to flooding the world with precious metals is the cost of energy. Solve it and civilization will change, power will shift, and much of the mundane will become extremely valuable. We already know where the easiest and most abundant source of PMs exist, i.e. under the sea and in sea water.

There has never been a lack of PMs on or in the earth. Mankind has always found what was needed.

[Edit]
copper -- volavka, 18:43:16 10/20/03 Mon

http://ca.us.biz.yahoo.com/rm/031020/minerals_japan_copper_1.html

[Edit]
Endgame & Chinese Silver Production -- auspec, 18:41:14 10/20/03 Mon

"I can find no credible explanation as to why for most of the twentieth century China reported virtually no silver production yet was near the top in copper, lead and zinc mining"

I have been advised by officials of Canadian mining companies currently exploring China for gold and other minerals that China presents a distinct LACK of silver. When in Germany lots of VW's are seen, Mercedes in Germany, etc. Silver in Mexico, South America, Australia, but not so in China. At least not to date. Secondary silver to some degree but primary silver mines almost nonexistent. They had no axe to grind, volunteered the info.........& I take them at their word.

Looking back over historic production of silver. For the most part the greatest quantities of silver have been found relatively close to surface. How was the initial amounts of silver "mined".......? Sheesh, a lot of it was simply picked up off the ground from where it was patiently waiting. Next came abundant primary silver near-surface mines, and finally much deeper mines.

All this means is that the easiest stuff and likely the most abundant was long ago pocketed. Rich stuff way beyond what is commonly found now and lots of it. Why not?

Anyone who is searching China for historic open pit mines is in posession of insufficiently tightened screws. China has no modern mining methods..........they are just now being introduced to modern mining by Canadian companies for the most part. They simply used raw man power for metal extraction..........not exactly going to show up via satellite.

Chinese mining records are dismal at best.......a great unknown.

Buying silver well below the cost of produvtion is, sooner or later, a big winner. Anyone who sells silver well below the cost of production is either stupid or manipulative. I'll wait em out, thank you.

Enjoyed the chat,

auspec

[Edit]
@Goldustorm – re silver hoards -- Endgame, 18:05:49 10/20/03 Mon

I don’t think that you have to believe in Atlanteans or aliens to come up with the missing silver. I can find no credible explanation as to where all of the silver used for coinage that went to China during the seventeenth and eighteenth century disappeared to. I can find no credible explanation as to why for most of the twentieth century China reported virtually no silver production yet was near the top in copper, lead and zinc mining. I can find no credible explanation as to where all of the silver coins from around the world have gone except that China does get a lot of silver nitrate to do the final refining on.

And then other thing that escapes me is why China has not gone the way of Atlantis given the weight of all of that silver hoarded within its borders.

Regards,
Endgame

[Edit]
@number six – golden black bull -- Endgame, 17:49:33 10/20/03 Mon

Come now. You can’t pyramid the current black gold nonsense on top of another fantasy. Even if some ancient societies were swallowed up by the waters, these still would have been some very primitive peoples. And they did not burrow miles below the surface of the earth and use massive pumps and compressors to keep their gold mining operations going.

And even if by some fluke that they had managed to dig up some gold, one would think that that gold would have sank with them. Unless gold floated in those days.

And even if gold did not float but they somehow managed to get it to shore, where has it been hiding for all of these centuries. Certainly the Pharaohs did not find it. Certainly the knights of old did not eat off of golden tables. But I would not put it past the Vatican.

No, the world is not awash in zillions of ounces of black gold. But Guyatt has books to sell. And this story is very important for the endgame. That time that is yet to come, when all must believe that there is no end to the gold coming to market.

Regards,
Endgame

[Edit]
What's a "Patriot" to do? -- auspec, 17:33:44 10/20/03 Mon

Jim Willie has it just about right in this G-E essay:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/willie102003pv.html

Nice to see brave and educated men shouting about the "Creature". Willie has gone from high tech bust to pro gold in a hurry........a scant few years.

[Edit]
@number six -- Goldustorm, 16:45:49 10/20/03 Mon

Thanks for that piece of the puzzle! The missing piece, because I believe 1) there are large quantities of black gold and 2) This is the tip of iceburg on ancient civilizations, which in years past I have heard much about but failed to make the metals connection up to now. And your information regarding mine tailings and workings was presented convincingly enough to pose an enigma you have solved today, IMO.
Also, your mention of Au AND Ag mining being possible in these civilizations lends credence to Endgame's assertion that large quantities of silver exist beyond official numbers. This IS very important news, because to me it makes perfect sense that silver extraction would be easy for them. And it just so happens that gold appears to be more in favor with the establishment PTB, Asians and Arabs right now, and I don't need to continue taking losses on silver. Thanks again, with apologies to the silverbugs, though I will still keep a significant core of physical Ag after trading yet some more away, unless someone like Ski, the encyclopedic silverbug, rescues me from the clutches of silvertigo disorientation.

[Edit]
copper -- volavka, 12:10:19 10/20/03 Mon

as she approaches 1.00, adds alot to some metal mines balance sheet.

[Edit]
Great Recovery -- Messenger, 10:00:10 10/20/03 Mon


Sony cutting 20,000 jobs.

Next go-around, interest rate to rise.

[Edit]
Short squeeze material -- volavka, 09:36:33 10/20/03 Mon

say your prayers:
20, 2003 (financialwire.net via COMTEX) --
(FinancialWire) In a surprise announcement that has
shot through the U.S. microcap securities community
like a lightening bolt, the U.S. Securities and
Exchange Commission said late last week it will
consider a new Regulation SHO Wednesday, October 22,
at its 10 a.m. meeting. The regulation would require
short sellers in all equity securities to locate
securities to borrow before selling short, and add
further requirements to address "naked" short selling.


The practice of selling stocks without securing
certificates has pitted at least 13 market makers,
including Deutsche Bank AG (NYSE: DB), Goldman, Sachs
& Co. (NYSE: GS), Knight Securities, LP (NASDAQ:
NITE), and Ladenburg Thalmann & Co., Inc. (AMEX: LHS),
against some 106 public companies claiming "foul" for
over a year now, and has also called into question the
electronic settlement system run by the Depository
Trust and Clearing Corp. more commonly referred to as
the "DTC."

Despite its immense power in the securities industry,
and its "old boy" network of directors, the Depository
Trust has so far largely escaped the governance crises
that have struck, first the U.S. Securities and
Exchange Commission itself under Harvey L. Pitt, and
then the New York Stock Exchange and the American
Stock Exchange, currently owned by NASDAQ (OTCBB:
NDAQ).

Among other things, Regulation SHO would institute a
new uniform bid test, applicable to exchange-listed
and NASDAQ National Market System securities, that
would allow short sales to be effected at a price
above the consolidated best bid. Regulation SHO would
also suspend the operation of the proposed bid test
for specified highly liquid securities on a two-year
pilot basis.

The hearing, and assuming the SEC approves the staff's
proposal, the subsequent public comment period, is
expected to attract immense interest, as shareholders
and company executives vent their frustrations. SEC
spokesperson John Heine told FinancialWire that the
Wednesday hearings will be webcast directly from the
SEC at www.sec.gov.

[Edit]
What's the color of my wind. -- volavka, 08:56:38 10/20/03 Mon

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3627872872

[Edit]
buying breakout -- volavka, 06:09:09 10/20/03 Mon

give it all you've got, rudy.

[Edit]
copper rocks -- volavka, 06:07:54 10/20/03 Mon

will lead metals higher.

[Edit]
re black gold -- number six, 00:04:01 10/20/03 Mon

The other day when I was writing about Guyatt and his alleged 40 bil oz of gold, I thought the whole thing was silly, (well, the numbers mentioned anyhow,) so I said "Where did they mine these ounces, Atlantis??" Obviously, I was poking fun at it all. But as chance would have it, I listened today to an interview with Graham Hancock, who is quite an expert on ancient civilisations gone to the sea. He's got a very good case! Obviously "Atlantis" isn't an actual continent what sunk one day. But what it might well be is antidiluvian/pre-ice age civilisations that were swallowed up by the "great flood." The coastal land masses which disappeared over this time were as large as South America plus USA combined. And slowly, they are revealing their secrets. The best finds being the underwater pyramid/thing of the coast of Okinawa, and the new finds of huge structures off India's south-east coast, and the big underwater cities found off India's north east coast. The Cuban discoveries also sound pretty awesome. The evidence is looking pretty watertight, even if the civilisations behind them proved not to be. This obviously hasn't made it into the mainstream official "truth" yet; and it would be considered impossible because civilisation wasn't meant to be around back then - but that is exactly what these evidences are now establishing.

So maybe lots of au & ag was mined from these regions which are now submerged, so it's not as completely fanciful as I had first thought.

[Edit]
Periodic Ponzi Update PPU -- $hifty, 23:27:53 10/19/03 Sun

Ponzi Chart

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU

Nasdaq 1,912.36 + Dow 9,721.79 = 11,634.15 divide by 2 = 5,817.075 Ponzi

Up 22.085 from last week.

Thanks for the link RossL !

Go GATA !

Go GOLD !

Go Comets !

$hifty



[Edit]
"Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all?" -- Goldustorm, 22:13:40 10/19/03 Sun

Let us not worry that when gold stands before a mirror of itself, it doesn't see itself as the currency alone among peers.
Ancient kings do not sweat the small antics and mischief of urchin "money". Nor a Bin Laden scare tape, real or fanciful, once in a while that can cause sporadic flight into currencies like the buck and bonds. They help feed the global gold calves too these days, as nearly any economic news acts like a double-edged sword.
Even if some pesky terrorist hackers "get it right" just once and trigger a FAT headline someday- lamenting the consequences of a glitch or an "unavoidable modern technological vulnerability"- notice how it directs more investment into gold and commodities and safe havens and cheap entertainment.
And notice how the world managers "fix" resembles their reactions to 9-11 and other crises where long-standing rules were changed overnight and new bureaucracy arose like knights in shining armor from their subterranean birthplace.
And then you may see that gold's greatest qualities and storied, illustrious but sometimes notorious and nefarious patronage and history will be off most everyone's radar, television, and PC screens even in the later years of the generational gold bull.

[Edit]
Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 19:45:39 10/19/03 Sun











US$/POG: from www.kitco.com US$/POS: from www.kitco.com EURO/POG: from www.kitco.com [Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]










LbS/POG: from www.kitco.com London Fix: from www.kitco.com LbS/POS: from www.kitco.com


[Edit]
I'm ready -- volavka, 18:14:53 10/19/03 Sun

to go, good, bad and ugly...classic

Gold knows...it is time...

[Edit]
Apec Family -- Netking, 10:39:52 10/19/03 Sun

Yep, aside from the previous post . . . the US attempts to convert the Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation forum into a "good ol' security forum" . . . hot resistance is met from some, including China and esp from host Thai Foreign Minister Dr Surakiart Sathirathai . . . meanwhile Malaysian Prime Minister Dr Mahathir Mohamad set the scene last week for a tense start accusing Jews of ruling the world by "proxy" [oops] and accusing Australia of being a puppet of the United States [oops] after George referred to Australia as a "sheriff". . . NZ continues to whinge for a free-trade agreement with the US, but no advance is expected on the "not right now" sentiment expressed by the President last week [Helen, what's in it for me stupid!]. . . . and so it goes on, ah yes the Apec family, can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

[Edit]
China's CB Governor -- Netking, 09:45:10 10/19/03 Sun

Zhou Xiaochuan [China's central bank governor] on the exchange rate of the Chinese Renminbi etc:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200310/19/eng20031019_126352.shtml

...the battle is not over yet with Apec members being squeezed for US allignment on this issue prior to the meet. Thus far though, the US has not attracted the necessary support to bring any substantial pressure upon the PRC.

[Edit]
U S Eh? -- Goldustorm, 09:41:00 10/19/03 Sun

http://www.etherzone.com/2003/devl101703.shtml

THE FISH STINKETH FROM THE HEAD
MY FAIR LADY GOES TO WASHINGTON
By: Paula Devlin
Remember that great play, "My Fair Lady"? Its main point was that you could take a member of the lower classes, teach her how to speak and behave as a member of the upper classes and fool everyone.
Washington has been doing the political equivalent of that for years, taking sow's ears and passing them off as silk purses. While a certain amount of chicanery and filching from the till are part and parcel of the political genre, wholesale treason is not. Thugs and whores from the ideological gutter have been made over into media icons and spoon-fed to the gullible, the naïve and the lazy who refuse to call them what they are.

The goyem have been being herded into vast holding pens for the murky and nefarious purposes of the New World Order. The herding techniques have been so well refined that the goyem don't stampede, but go gently into that dark night.
Treason is a grave national problem but nobody seems to mind. During the previous administration, there was clear collusion between our government and China. Some pretty hefty campaign contributions by the Chinese minions and American corporations resulted in that White House allowing extremely important military equipment and information to be exported to the Chinese.
In the meantime, over the past 15 years other captains of industry have been exporting our manufacturing base to China so they can sell us things we used to make for ourselves and keep our money. Our money is subsidizing their war machine. For those who argue China is becoming capitalist, that's the Hollywood version: it is a state-controlled oligarchy of slaves and slave owners. Their workers make between thirteen and twenty seven cents a day and work 16/7. Granting China "most favored nation" trade status, under the circumstances, is treason. Exporting our industries, as it undermines our economic independence, is treason.
Letting Chinese fronts buy Magnaquench and helping them establish basic industries (steel mills, tool & die making) is treason. Magnaquench was an American company that used rare earth metals in the production of missile guidance systems. First the "earth-worshippers" shut down the rare earth mines in California. Then the Feds allowed the company be sold to China, which is the only other country with the same needed rare earth metals. It has markedly advanced their space program as well as their development of warheads capable of reaching multiple U.S. cities.
Global Crossing, a Bermuda corporation, went belly-up but was kept on life support because it provided communications infrastructure for the U.S. military, FBI, CIA and the U.K. military. Li Ka-Shing, Triad-connected darling of the PLA, has been trying to buy Global Crossing. Currently a Singapore corporation has it in its sights, waiting for Fed approval.
One can only speculate that Gary Winnick made Global Crossing go belly up to facilitate the sale of this extremely critical communications infrastructure. Now he is some kind of Wall Street hero for screwing so many people out of so much money and walking away rich. DOJ doesn't seem to have noticed. It's too busy covering boobs and pretending The Patriot Act will be effective against treason.
Is the flood of illegals designed to corrupt our formerly identifiable American culture? If this flood were not part of some (horrors!) conspiracy, why was not the southern border included in the Patriot Act? (Title IV Subtitle A – Protecting the Northern Border. No similar specific provisions were made for protecting the more porous border, the Mexican border.)
Our current building boom has been fueled by the 10 million plus illegals who prefer a solid roof over their heads as soon as they get jobs. Shutting off the flow of illegals will precipitate an economic crash in the housing industry.
Housing prices have been driven up and up to the point where one who has been in their house for 5 years could not afford to buy it again. To keep the myth alive that we are still a booming economy, folks are encouraged to refinance with low interest rates and spend that money on goods made in China. Why else would Consumer Confidence be so important? What about the kind of ability people have to pay down their debts with their present and anticipated income? Consumer Confidence? Give me a break. That is about feelings, not economic reality. The ordinary American worker is worse off now than thirty years ago in terms of spending power.
When will these chickens come home to roost?
Does anyone believe for a nanosecond that those inside the Beltway do not know what is in the pipeline and where they will be when it hits?
Mr. Shaw wrote a very charming play. A dark spirit translated its theme to politics, is playing the leading role and the masses can't get enough. Mr. Shaw wrote a comedy. The Washington version has all the earmarks of a tragedy.
"Published originally at EtherZone.com : republication allowed with this notice and hyperlink intact."
Paula Devlin is a former New Englander who bolted to the Rocky Mountain West, where the air is clean, the stars are brilliant and men still put their pants on one leg at a time.  Paula is a regular columnist for Ether Zone.
Paula Devlin can be reached at: pdevlin@bacavalley.com

[Edit]
SHRUB MAKES A CHOICE -- OmarD, 16:11:52 10/18/03 Sat

"A entertaining story to get to a sobering punch line..."

(From Br. Ted) 10/17/03
-----------

George Dubya Bush was shot with 50 rounds from a legal assault rifle by a disgruntled NRA member who was ticked off because Bush failed to get Congress to legalize bigger assault weapons. St. Peter met the prez at the Pearly Gates.

"Welcome to Heaven," St. Peter said. "We seldom see a Republican big-wig around these parts, so we're not sure what to do with you. The Man says you're to spend one day in Hell and one day in Heaven, then choose where you'll go for eternity."

"But, I'm the President, and I've already made up my mind," Dubya said. "I wanna be in Heaven."

"Sorry, but we have our rules," said the saint, and escorted him to an elevator going down, down, down, all the way to Hell.

The doors opened and he found himself in the middle of a lush golf course, sun shining in a cloudless sky, temperature a perfect 72 degrees. In the distance, a beautiful clubhouse, and standing in front of it were his dad and dozens of others who'd helped him out along the way ó Kenny Lay, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, all happy, all laughing, all casually but expensively dressed.

They greeted him, hugged him, and reminisced about the good times they had getting rich at expense of the "suckers." They played a friendly game of golf and then dined on lobster and caviar.

The Devil himself served the president a frosty drink. "Have a Margarita and relax, Dubya!"

"Uh, I can't drink no more, I took a pledge," said Junior, dejectedly.

"This is Hell, son," Lucifer chuckled. "You can drink and eat all you want and never worry, and it just gets better from there! Nobody's left behind."

So Dubya took the drink and found himself liking the Devil ó he seemed like a really great guy who could tell funny jokes and pull all sorts of hilarious nasty pranks, kind of like a Skull and Bones brother with real horns.

Before he realized it, it was time to go. Everyone gave him a big hug and waved as he got on the elevator and headed upward.

St. Peter was waiting for him. "Now it's time to visit Heaven," he said, and opened the gate.

For 24 hours, Bush had to hang out with a bunch of honest, good-natured, boring people who talked about things other than money, and some of them were even poor. No pranks or frat boy jokes, no swell country clubs and, while the food tasted pretty good, it sure wasn't caviar or lobster. He didn't see a soul he knew, and nobody treated him like he was special.

Worst of all, Jesus turned out to be some kind of Jewish do-gooder forever talking about ''peace'' and ''do unto others.''

"Whoa," Dubya said to himself, "Pat Robertson never prepared me for this."

At day's end, St. Peter came back. "Well, you've spent a day in Hell and a day in Heaven. Now choose where you want to live for eternity."

With the 'Jeopardy' theme playing softly in the background, Dubya squinched up his face with the effort of thinking, and then said: "Well, I never thought I'd say this -- I mean, Heaven has been just fine and all -- but I really think I belong in Hell with my friends."

So Saint Peter escorted him to the elevator again, and down, down, down he went, all the way to Hell.

The doors opened on a landscape of barren scorched earth covered with garbage and toxic industrial waste ó a little like Houston. Horrified, he saw all his friends, dressed in rags and chained together, endlessly picking up trash and putting it in bags, groaning and moaning piteously, faces and hands black with grime.

"I-I don't understand," Dubya stammered in shock. "Yesterday I was here, and there was a golf course and a clubhouse and we ate lobster and caviar and drank booze. We screwed around and had a great time. Now it just looks like we're back on earth, and it's just a wasteland full of garbage and everybody looks miserable!"

The Devil smiled slyly, put an arm around him and purred, "Yesterday, we were campaigning. Today, you voted for us."


----------

So true...........

OmarD



[Edit]
Correct Link -- Vote No War, 11:09:43 10/18/03 Sat

http://www.votenowar.org/

It's all happening October 25, wonder if George will be there?

[Edit]
"Fraud culture" reception interferes with radio, rationality -- Goldustorm, 07:35:10 10/18/03 Sat

http://www.etherzone.com/2003/sart101603.shtml

WHEN OLD TIME RADIO REIGNED
HOW MUCH IT IS MISSED
By: SARTRE
The 40's and 50's seem like a time from another life. Most audiences remember that era only as part of a history lesson. The "Golden Age of Radio" is long gone, but for anyone who has the chance to listen to the programs that entertained an entire nation, the lessons of that time are self revealing. Jack Benny's life was as assessable as a close member of your own family. Fibber McGee was always living the Life of Riley, as Our Miss Brooks readied herself for another Burns and Allen visit. The Inner Sanctum was an inviting place for the likes of Boston Blackie, Johnny Dollar and Sam Spade. The Shadow was always lurking for Superman or the Green Hornet as the Whistler tune is heard in the background.

Yes, this was a time when innocence seemed the norm and the world was simple and familiar. You knew the good guys where the Lone Ranger, Hopalong Cassidy and the Cisco Kid would round up the desperadoes with the smell of their Gunsmoke. The cops would set their Dragnet and Philo Vance, Richard Diamond and Nero Wolfe would get their man. No Escape - Crime Does Not Pay - for the Crime Club, the Suspense is gone. Today, we live in a Black Museum among a Dimension X generation that has no Jack Armstrong. Philip Marlowe is passé and Ellery Queen only appeals to Dr Kildare and the rest of the X Minus One crowd.
So what's the point? Who cares about Fred Allen!  Amos and Andy don't do dinner with the Aldrich Family. The Big Town no longer has Ozzie and Harriet neighborhoods. Compare the entertainment coming from Britney Spears with spending an evening at the Phil Harris home. Let's Pretend that Lum and Abner are funny and that kids wear Buster Brown shoes! Who really believes that Father Knows Best when Eminem goes the extra eight miles to reach a new high?
Society has digressed into a deviate Mysterious Traveler, no more meeting friends at Duffy's Tavern. Death Valley Days have come to a Mercury Theater of the absurd. So when you hear that all is well, ask if you contribute to this pattern of rejection? What is left within this culture to conserve? Once there was a common thread that was shared by the overwhelming majority. Radio represented one of those mediums that brought people together for a mutually shared experience. Imagination and inventions of the mind allowed for creative and thoughtful reflections. Today, the talking heads that dominate the boob tube are dispensing a subliminal political message through cultural distortion.
The mindless nature of today's entertainment has a serious purpose. Not being satisfied to simply dumb down the masses, the underlying objective of the mass media is to formulate a social despair that will place blame upon traditional values and cause a rejection of fundamental institutions and civil conduct. Former US House Majority Leader, Dick Armey has a new book -  Armey's Axioms: 40 Hard-Earned Truths from Politics, Faith, and Life. He has always been a champion of a certified conventional mindset. As a political leader, he failed; but that does not diminish the correctness of many of his conservative conclusions. Few will hear the message from his wisdom, just as listening to the broadcasts of over a half century ago seem out of date. However, the fools who vote for political candidates based upon a celebrity mystique, deserve the tragic cesspool they create for themselves. But what are the alternatives for those who find value and derive sustenance from a society that operates upon decency and treasures a moral lifestyle?
There is no Dr Christian waiting in the wings to cure all the Baby Snooks. People Are Funny only if you are apathetic. The harmless hype of a Great Gildersleeve has the burlesque of a Spike Jones, but when it is replaced with 'reality programming', you'll get a real War Of The Worlds. Almost makes one wish for a visit from Harry Lime! Sorry; the past is the past, and the future is a Command Performance. All the Charlie McCarthy's are dummies, they turn their back on the Cavalcade Of America, for Christmas At The Soaps. Have Gun Will Travel is forsaken for I Was A Communist . . . now ignored by This Is Your FBI.
Sherlock Holmes can't solve this crime, Roy Rogers won't ride to the rescue and The Saint won't save the day. Only all the Mr. and Mrs. North's can bring the pirate Henry Morgan to justice. You Bet Your Life, that Armey's Axioms are worth a forethought. Sgt Preston won't be Calling All Cars to protect and serve. Little Miss Margie won't be mollified by Arthur Godfrey, nor will the Halls Of Ivy sing a tune by Bing Crosby or brighten your morning with a Dennis Day. The Stage Door Canteen will be open for many more GI journals. Think, the Crime Photographer is taking your picture. The Witch's Tale awaits a Famous Jury Trial. The Fourth Estate has sold you a culture of FDR's Fireside Chats.
Reminiscing and cherishing those old broadcasts won't alter the bill of fare that has become - This Is You Life. As difficult as it often is, click off the remote and free yourself from the dribble on the Sunday morning political shows. Tune out the evening news, it's designed to confuse. Switch off your walkman, the rap music will hip hop you into a Line Up. Recovery starts with the admission that your leaders have betrayed you, the media has sold a fraud culture and your neighbor is just as ill as yourself. Break The Bank, become a Gangbuster, remember Groucho Marx: "Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"
"Published originally at EtherZone.com : republication allowed with this notice and hyperlink intact."
SARTRE is the pen name of a reformed, former political operative. This pundit's formal instruction in History, Philosophy and Political Science served as training for activism, on the staff of several politicians and in many campaigns. He is the content liaison for Ether Zone.
SARTRE can be reached at: BATR@sartre.info
We invite you to visit his website at: Breaking All The Rules 
Published in the October 16, 2003 issue of  Ether Zone.
Copyright © 1997 - 2003 Ether Zone.

[Edit]
Vote No War! -- Kevin, 03:44:06 10/18/03 Sat



Vote No War!

[Edit]
"Get out of U.S. stocks, the U.S. dollar" - John Templeton -- Netking, 03:01:53 10/18/03 Sat

Snip from 'Daily Reckoning' free e mail service:

Templeton believes the dollar will fall 40% against other major currencies... and that this will lead the nation's major creditors - notably Japan and China - to dump their U.S. bonds, which will cause interest rates to run up, thus beginning a long period of stagflation.

The Florida reporter felt he should get a second opinion from the local brokers and fund managers. None wanted to contradict the great man directly, but neither did they want their customers to think he might be right. "It
probably won't be that bad," was the gist of their remarks.
"Bush wouldn't let the dollar fall too much," said one.
Another thought she saw a way to undermine Templeton's
authority. His age, she noted, "could count against him."

Templeton was still sharp in 1999. While the financial
industry hacks in Florida were urging their customers to
buy more tech stocks, Templeton warned that the bubble
would soon burst. He was right; they were wrong. Of course,
he was only 88 back then.

For more:
http://www.dailyreckoning.com

[Edit]
PRC - Growth -- Netking, 01:40:44 10/18/03 Sat

China's economy grew by 8.5 percent in the first three quarters this year, with an increase of 0.6 percentage points compared with the same period of last year, according to a government report issued Friday. The report by the National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) said the gross domestic product (GDP) of the first three quarters totaled more than 7.9 trillion yuan (about 956.6 billion US dollars).

Forget the sleeping giant bit.

[Edit]
When the eagle flies with the dove -- goldus, 21:54:19 10/17/03 Fri

http://www.etherzone.com/2003/henr101703.shtml
Ramapaging possessed madmen continue to prey on the earth and her inhabitants, enlisting unwary followers to lives of slavery and prostitution. When the earth spits her fury upon the gleaming brash skylines of man and shakes today's garish houses of ill repute down into sterile dust and organic magmas and vapors, the caressing wind will again blow upon the land of my people. So be it. Om Nama Shivaya. Aom Hum
Amen Shanthi Peace Om Shalom Aum...

SILLY SEASON
NO LONGER FUNNY
By: Ed Henry
George W. Bush has himself trashed the whole idea that the FBI, CIA, or any intelligence agency gave him bad information about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. There is no longer the slightest doubt that the President of the United States, his Secretary of State, his Secretary of Defense, the Vice President and other unelected bureaucrats deliberately put forth erroneous information they knew to be false and did it to excite and frighten the American people into condoning an illegal invasion.

How do we know this? We know it because Bush continues to say the same things he told us daily for six months before the invasion, and he blatantly does it in the face of evidence that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and probably haven't been since before the UN inspectors left in 1998.
"The most obvious proof that Bush officials hyped and distorted evidence about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction in the past is that they continue to hype and distort that evidence today, with a shamelessness that is stunning." From the editorial page of the Atlanta Journal Constitution, Saturday, October 11, 2003.
____
Anyone who believes there "is no plan" for what to do after we invade Middle Eastern nations one by one hasn't read the Manifesto of the New World Order. Did the pirates of yesteryear rescue survivors of the ships they plundered? Did Hitler have a plan to rebuild France or Poland?
____
President Bush has put Condoleezza Rice in charge of rebuilding Iraq, but all that seems to mean is that she will tour the United States with public relations speeches trying to convince the American people that the invasion was justified. Why is Rumsfeld upset? He's not nearly as pretty as Condoleezza or as convincing.
____
On Sunday, October 12, 2003, both the Washington Post and the Denver Post published a story titled: "New Plan: Kill endangered species to save them." The logic behind this plan is that third world nations that cannot afford to police poachers will, if the U.S. allows wealthy trophy hunters, zoos, circuses, and the pet industry to pay a healthy fee to take some of these endangered creatures, be able to afford protection for the remainder. The end justifies the means. Other endangered species, such as American workers, should take heed.
____
The Giant Sucking Sound has been re-titled "outsourcing" and continues unabated. The Bush administration proposes giving these companies a $400 billion tax break in hopes they will return home and hire Americans.
____
Meanwhile, American workers still employed continue to pay an overcharge on their payroll taxes. In fiscal 2000, this overcharge amounted to $94.5 billion for the government to enjoy. In fiscal 2001, it was $98.7 billion. And in fiscal 2002, it amounted to $89 billion. This year, fiscal 2003, it will be close to $76 billion, but we don't have the exact figure yet. To the chagrin of the pirates, unemployment keeps dragging down the booty. Watch for an increase in payroll taxes or another cut in Social Security benefits.
____
With individual Americans, States, and local governments buying prescription drugs in Canada because they are up to 50 percent cheaper, Congress is debating the legality of these purchases and considering restrictions. The spin that it is "dangerous" to buy American made drugs from other countries is not working. The pharmaceutical industry employs more than 550 lobbyists in Washington, more than one for every member of Congress.
____
States and local governments are having difficulties meeting their promised pension obligations and many are considering bond issues to make up the difference. It's about time citizens started questioning some of the perks paid with taxpayer money. For instance, police and fire often receive as much as 8-to-1 in matching pension funds while, although their occupations are dangerous, both rank far below truck drivers and farmers who do not get such perks, rank number one and two in on-the-job fatalities, and pay through the nose for things like insurance and health care. You might also notice that the Department of Labor says more lawyers die on-the-job than do policemen.
____
The best thing Bush has done since taking office is to reduce the income tax overcharge. In fiscal 2000, the year of the government's greatest surplus of $237 billion, $87 billion came from income tax overcharges. No democrat would have given this money back to taxpayers. And isn't it interesting that this is the exact amount Bush now wants to carry on the war against terrorism and build his empire? Do you believe things like this happen by coincidence?
"Published originally at EtherZone.com : republication allowed with this notice and hyperlink intact."

[Edit]
An outstanding piece from Gary North on capitalism -- ET, 21:11:00 10/17/03 Fri

Capitalism isn't dead despite what you've heard. It may have shifted to a different part of the world, however.


Quoted material follows:

Gary North's REALITY CHECK

Issue 284 October 17, 2003


THE TORTOISE AND THE HARE: A MODERN REVISION

First, I am going to make a statement that seems outlandish. Second, I am going to ask you to prove me wrong. Third, I am going to offer some explanations.

Here is my statement:

"You are not significantly better off
economically than your parents were in
1973, and you are significantly worse
off culturally."

This may not seem conceivable. After all, we live in America, and this is a land of ever-greater opportunities.
We are always improving. Retrogression is impossible here,
but if it were possible, it would be anti-American.

There was a time when the previous paragraph was true.
I think those days are gone. I think, sometime late in
1973, Americans went into preservation mode. We became defensive. In doing so, we abandoned a characteristic feature of America that was foundational. This happened without fanfare or even widespread awareness that anything major had changed. But it had.

Americans are better off in the area of computer
power. As an editor and a publisher, I am much better off.
I was in a position to take advantage of the one clear-cut economic advance since 1973: the price of computer technology. But this development has not changed the lives of most Americans to the extent that it has changed mine.
How much has it changed yours?

Here is my challenge. Get a piece of paper and a
pencil. Draw a paper-filling T. Above the left-hand side
of the T, write 1973. Above the right-hand side, write
2003.

We are going to go from October to October. Why is October so important? On October 17, 1973, OPEC announced its first oil embargo and price hike. (I am not so good an historian that I remembered this date, and scheduled this report to commemorate that event. I got this fact off the Web after I began to write this report. I had known the OPEC embargo began in the second half of 1973. I had not known it was exactly 30 years ago to the day.) OPEC did this in response to the Israel-Egypt war, which had begun with an invasion of Israel by Egypt on October 6. The West backed Israel. OPEC backed Egypt. The price of oil quadrupled over the next six months.

The second reason I chose 1973 was the official devaluation of the dollar. This took place in February.
Nixon had unilaterally announced on August 15, 1971 that
the United States Treasury would no longer sell gold to
foreign central banks or governments at $35/oz, thereby
ending the last remaining traces of the gold standard. He floated the dollar, ending fixed exchange rates (price
controls) over the dollar. The following December, central banks re-imposed fixed exchange rates. This did not work.
The banks could not afford to redeem each others'
currencies at the fixed rates. Britain devalued in 1972.
The Swiss revalued (upward move) in early 1973. The U.S. devalued in February 1973. This introduced a system of floating exchange rates -- free pricing -- or at least managed rates. This system was officially recognized in 1976.

We now live in a world in which a currency speculator, such as George Soros, can short a currency and make a short-term profit of a billion dollars or more at the expense of a central bank, whether Malaysia's or England's.
Currency rate management has shifted to private individuals rather than central bankers. This is where it belongs.
Price controls don't work. They never have. It is only because of men's near-worship of the wisdom of central banking (a government-created cartel of bankers) that the idea of fixed exchange rates still has supporters among some economists and policy-makers, who reject the whole idea of price controls in every other area of the market.

From 1973 until now, the word "devalue" has had no
meaning in most currency markets. To devalue or revalue a currency is to move from a government-imposed price control at one rate of exchange to a new price control at another rate of exchange. But when governments and their central banks ceased attempting to establish price controls on their currencies in 1973, the old terminology ceased to have any meaning. Currencies depreciate or appreciate according to supply and demand, but they are no longer devalued or revalued by governments.

Today, there is only one major fixed exchange rate:
the dollar-yuan rate. This rate is fixed by the Chinese government through its central bank. The central bank supplies yuan to product-buying Westerners who present dollars in order to buy goods with yuan. It does this by expanding the supply of yuan. Chinese officials still cling to the illusion that government price controls can make an economy more successful. The Chinese will eventually learn, in a depression, that expanding the money supply produces a misallocation of capital. They are new at this. They still play the mercantilist's game: expanding exports through currency expansion, which holds down import prices in foreign nations. They will learn, painfully, that such a policy has costs attached to it.

From 1973 until today, the partners in the twentieth- century alliance between banking and oil have been in a race, with the politicians who run the oil-exporting nations pressing up the price of oil in response to Western central bankers, who keep cranking out more fiat money to keep the boom alive. In inflation-adjusted terms (dollars in 2000), the price of oil has been in the range of $20 a barrel since 1945.

http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

Today's higher rate is an anomaly. There are analysts
who think oil will return to $20. Others think we have
entered a new era of oil shortages based on physical limits
of oil production and rising demand from Asia. What is not disputed is that the price of oil has kept up with the decline in purchasing power of Western currencies, which has been steady since 1973.


HOW ARE YOU DOING?

Start filling in your T-page. Where are you
significantly better off than your parents were three
decades ago?

I know you are better off economically. Three decades ago, you were younger. You were not equally productive.
You were just starting out.

In 1973, I was earning $1,000 a month, worth about
$4,200 today. Of course, I was in a lower income tax
bracket. Social Security taxation was less. But I had no insurance or retirement savings. I had not started publishing REMNANT REVIEW. I was working for my father-in-law. Am I better off now? Not biologically, surely. In most other ways, yes. But this is because I'm older. Also, I was one of the few who was in the top 5% in terms of income generation. We won the race after 1973.

For the average Joe, there has been very little
progress. While the following Web page has extracted
material from authors with a bias against capitalism, the figures are generally accurate. The page's creator sees economic stagnation pretty much the way I do: a product of anti-gold, pro-fiat money ideology. I suggest that you click through and spend five minutes surveying the evidence. The first entry is worth considering.

The average weekly earnings of the 80% of
rank-and-file working Americans, adjusted for
inflation, fell by 18% between 1973 and 1995,
from $315 a week to $258 per week.

http://ebean390.tripod.com/walt1971.html

This has been confirmed by all of the surveys I have
seen. This is not just one economist's opinion. Between
1973 and 1995, inflation-adjusted wage rates fell. Family income stayed stable only because wives entered the work force.

There is no agreed-upon explanation among economists.
(Surprise!) There is not even a majority opinion.
Somehow, economists tell us, everything changed. Prior to 1973, there had been labor productivity increases with wage increases to match since 1945. These increases were in the
2+% per year range -- a rate that had been sustained for
two centuries, excepting mainly the 1930's. Then, without warning, everything changed. Productivity hit a brick wall.

This reversed after 1995, but then hit another brick
wall in March, 2001, exactly one year after the stock
market peaked. Worker productivity is rising today because about three million jobs have disappeared since 2001.
Those who are still in the work force are facing tremendous competitive pressure from unemployed Americans, who can get back into the labor pool if wages rise, and also from highly employed Asians. Real wages do not seem to be rising. The trade deficit is. So is the U.S. government's deficit.

In this T-exercise, consider one day in your parents' lives. They got ready for work. They fed you a bowl of Cheerios, just as they had been fed as children, when it was called Cheeri-oats. They put you on the yellow school bus, which looks just the same, and smells just the same, to today's kids.

They drove to work in a larger car. Today's cars are better in many ways, but if you had to drive one just like they did, you would find it roomier. It would have air conditioning. It probably had an AM-only radio. Well, most people still listen to AM radio in prime drive-time.
They listen to talk shows, not music. What hurt them in
that car was the gasoline prices, which began to rise as a result of OPEC.

How about television? It was color. The set had the
same clarity as today's sets. Americans watched just as much of it. They watched Mary Tyler Moore. The average Joe today watches "Friends" and "Will and Grace." Who is better off? Do you want to make a case for 2003 on the right-hand side of the T based on "Will and Grace" vs. "The Mary Tyler Moore Show"?

The movies had the same technology. They were shown
in a shopping mall. You only saw one feature.

They listened to vinyl records that went click & pop.
You listen to CD's. OK, that's one for 2003. But the CD
is not significantly better technologically than in 1987.
What happened since then?

You have a VCR. Your parents didn't. Score one for
2003. Hooray for Sony and Sanyo. The Asians have made us richer. You get to record "Will and Grace." You will even have tape left over for "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy."

Aren't things grand today?

In medical care, it's positive for people with certain rare diseases and conditions requiring surgery. As for heart attacks, stroke, and most cancers -- the afflictions that kill most people -- it's no better. Whatever is better is due to changes in people's lifestyle, plus the discovery that aspirin can reduce heart attacks. This works for the masses because aspirin was on the market before the Food and Drug Administration came into existence, and so it got "grandfathered" by the regulators.
If aspirin had been invented in 1973, it would probably
still be a prescription-only drug.

If you're talking life extension, the big improvements were these: wire mesh screens that kept out insects, separating water supplies from latrine areas, and the replacement of horse-drawn trolleys by automobiles -- fewer flies. Those were developments of the 1860's through the pre-World War I era. Penicillin and the sulfa wonder drugs were innovations of the pre-World War II era. The great pandemics were gone by 1960, including polio.

I still wear a suit I had made in Hong Kong in 1973.
It still looks better on me than any of the off-the-rack, garment-district suits I wear, which are 1980-era.

Start writing down the clear-cut improvements in your lifestyle vs. your parents' lifestyle 1973 -- improvements that you can tie to economic growth.


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-----------------------


SOMEWHERE ACROSS THE SEA

Now think of China and Russia. In 1973, China was
still suffering under Mao. The cultural revolution was
still in force. Rural poverty was massive. There was no economic growth. Deng's agricultural reforms came in 1979.
In 1973, Deng was stripped of all power by Mao.

As for Russia, then the USSR, Brezhnev was in power.
The economy was a continuing disaster -- a fact visible to everyone who looked at the facts except Nobel-Prize winning economists like Paul Samuelson. It was in 1973 that Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago" was published in the West. The next year, he was expelled from the Soviet Union.

Japan and the Asian tigers were beginning to grow
rapidly. Japanese automobiles began to get a toehold in
the United States. I had bought my first and only new car
in 1971: a Toyota Corolla.

Sub-Saharan Africa was still a basket case, but India
was beginning to escape Third World status.

If you consider the economic condition of the typical Asian today and compare this with his father's condition in 1973, there is no question of improvement. The right side of the T gets filled. An Asian probably has to turn the paper over to make another T.


COMPARATIVE RATES OF GROWTH

For Asia, there was little growth prior to 1950. It
is only as free market ideas penetrated the thinking of
Asian leaders, who began to free up their economies, that
the marvel of compound annual economic growth spread to
Asia. Within the lifetimes of adults born under
colonialism, the world of Asia changed.

The world in sub-Saharan Africa for the most part has
not changed. The difference is ideas. Sub-Saharan
Africans, apart from South Africans, still live under despotism.

Asians are cleaning the West's clocks, economically speaking. Their growth rates are much higher than ours.
The average man is becoming middle class. The number of millionaires in China is unknown, but it is probably in the millions.

The tortoise in the Aesop's famous fable is the slow, steady-as-you-go fellow. The hare gets off to a fast start, but then takes a nap. The tortoise wins the race.

Those who listen to this story always think of
themselves as the tortoise. That is why parents tell the
story to their children. They know that most people are
not hares. They don't want their children to lose hope at
an early age.

The problem is, the West seems to be the hare in the story. Since 1973, Western economies, most notably the United States, have slowed. We are napping at the side of the road. Meanwhile, Asians, who were the economic tortoises after 1500, have turned into hares. It's not just steady as you go in Asia. It's more like a middle- distance race where the winner has the ability to kick in the second lap. In just one generation, everything has changed.

Because Western economic analysts do not have a theory
to explain the failure of Western economies since 1973, policy-makers are following pre-1973 policies, mostly
Keynesian: tax and spend. These policies are remnants of
the 1930's.

To fund these fiscal policies without experiencing a
tax revolt, national governments have called on central
bankers to produce sufficient fiat money to keep the
economy booming, at ever higher prices, so as to push more taxpayers into higher tax brackets. The combination of graduated income taxation and a rising money supply favors the tax collector.

To this, add the fiscal pressure of a rising number of Social Security and Medicare recipients. This is a prescription for reduced thrift. This means reduced entrepreneurship, because a lower rate of saving leaves less capital to invest.

This leads me to my third reason for selecting 1973
as the turning-point: the U.S. Supreme Court's legalization
of abortion on demand in "Roe v. Wade." This led to at least 1.2 million legal abortions per year in the United States: 36 million people so far. The future of Social Security and Medicare is now threatened by a reduction of middle- class workers coming into the work force.

So, American employers have relied more and more on immigrants, mainly from Mexico, to make up the difference. These Latin American immigrants have come out of a non- entrepreneurial society, a society in which mostly white oligarchies -- Mexican President Vicente Fox's grandfather was Irish -- have for four centuries used State coercion to keep the mixed-race population in something like peonage.
These immigrants have poor educations. They marry young.
They go on the public dole in higher percentages than pre-
1973 immigrants did, since there is a far better organized government bureaucracy that earns its collective living by getting people on the dole. These newcomers are not well- capitalized entrepreneurs. There is a now a rising class of Latino-American entrepreneurs in this country, but they are not coming on-stream fast enough to pick up the tab for retirees that aborted Americans would otherwise have picked up.

What we are seeing is a race in which Asians are
gaining ground very fast on the West, and especially on the United States, which keeps adding to its trade deficit by borrowing from export-surplus nations. You and I know that this cannot go on forever. As to whether we are facing a slow fuse or fast fuse, economists and forecasters disagree, but that this is a lit fuse, there can be no doubt. At some point, foreign investors are going to ask
themselves: "Is the United States the most profitable place
for our earnings from exporting?" The answer will be "no."
The gravy train will cease. The dollar will fall.

Remember, this will not be dollar devaluation. It
will merely be good, old-fashioned dollar depreciation. It will be a time when currency speculators who have shorted the dollar will take their money -- not dollars -- to the
bank: not an American bank.


CONCLUSION

You are a little better off than your parents were in 1973. That's because you read a newsletter like mine. The average Joe doesn't read newsletters. In his world, there has been little or no improvement. Some are even worse off. This is unique in American history.

What has happened? Part of this is moral: the
question of will-power, meaning won't-power. We are
running short of will. We are running short of grace.

Economically, we are marching into big government.
As a nation, we are steadily substituting government- guaranteed security for entrepreneurship and thrift. Our thrift, such as it is, is flowing into government-regulated enterprises that are eligible for corporate pension plans to invest in.

Across the sea, our competitors are marching out of
big government -- the biggest governments in human history.
The former Communists are becoming entrepreneurs. Even the official Communists who are still in power in China are hooking up personally with entrepreneurs, just as Chinese warlords have done for millennia.

Economic liberty always has this effect. Capital
doesn't care who your parents were or what color you are or what language you speak, other than the two major international languages: mathematics and money. (The third international language, another M, is music, but Internet file sharing is creating profit-reductions for distributors in this area of the economy.)

In Asia, the Communist and Fabian tortoises are
turning into capitalist hares. Capital flows toward
liberty. That is the Asian threat. It is a threat to
those who have trusted the siren song of Fabianism, namely, that the bureaucrats, using tax money and newly created fiat money, can and will take care of us when things go wrong. Fabianism can be summarized in one sentence: "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." It always means this: "I'm here to help myself to whatever you own that is not hidden, and in exchange, I promise to do the same thing to your next-door neighbors."

The welfare state turns hares into tortoises. The
free market turns tortoises into hares. This is the lesson taught, but not yet learned, since 1973.

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[Edit]
Silver Technicals - Adam Hamilton, Zeal Research -- Netking, 17:04:33 10/17/03 Fri

http://news.goldseek.com/Zealllc/1066411551.php

Ah, Silver Technicals the real Mr Jones.

[Edit]
Nikita..............Meet Sir Douglas! -- auspec, 12:42:07 10/17/03 Fri

From the Julian Phillips article @ G-E:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/phillips101803pv.html


Fair use copyright as opposed to exploitation and plunder of proprietary information.

"In "Gold-Authentic Money", the next issue, we look at how the pricing of Russian oil in Euros would impact on the gold price, in particular. We examine the gold price and factors not only determining it, but how they synthesise to establish it in the short medium to long term."

"Instability, is the major factor influencing a rising price, but instability need not be solely a result of economic decay of whatever sort. Sometimes a factor comes along that creates such a sea change that it establishes a totally new current of instability, rupturing the old stability. We have spoken on the surface here, about the potential for the Euro. It seems that its entrance onto the world stage as a real challenger to the role of the $, as sole credible reserve currency, is imminent."

"We read that Russia intends to price its oil in Euros! Of itself, it allows Russia to diversify its reserves into Euros, without stress, whilst taking a huge chunk of capital flows away from the $. This has a considerably greater impact than at first seems apparent and will increase the likelihood of instability in currency markets, at some stage. If this does happen, it will mark the first major recognition of the Euro as a major reserve currency! The Central Bank of Russia, it is reported, has been treating the Euro as a reserve currency for the last two years. Its reserves stand at $65 billion, with Euros moving from 10% of the reserves to 25% of the reserves, according to the Finance Ministry. This is a major adjustment in the balance of power placing Europe and Russia in an effective position to reduce the role of the U.S. $ in the global economy. The ripple effect of this change will be enormous, if it comes to fruition. Already the I.M.F. reports that the U.S. $ has slipped from making up 76% of the world's reserves to 68%compared to the rising percentage of Euros to 13% of global reserves."

"Mr Putin acknowledged that Russia was exploring the change to Euros, whilst German Officials reported that Chancellor Schroder has secured an agreement for the change in oil pricing this week. Such a change would bring to the fore a power bloc that would be strong enough to resist any but the strongest measures from the States. The European bloc combined with Russia, would call the U.S. deficits to account, giving an alternative place into which to invest surpluses."

"If other nations follow suit the destabilising impact of these changes would highlight the value of gold."

END

****************************************

Comments: A lil history refresher is in order here. It was Wm Jennings Nikita Bryan who once stated "We will bury you in a casket of GOLD" as he banged his Rockports along the Trail. Sir Douglas heard every word clearly and has since taken up this same cross to carry for the Eurocentric Royal {pia} world. The damn {Dean} Ruskies are at it once more and only the likes of George C. Patton can save us from the Bulging gold coffers of the infernal free market based Russians, or possibly MacArthur could "return" once more to quiet the Chinese & their insatiable gold lust as well as leading the US to buried treasures in the jungles of Indonesia so as to replenish our own coffins.

Old "Blood & Guts" will also shut these yapping Buba Central Bankers up with their perpetual announcements of selling gold they no longer hold. That's exactly the type of finesse called for these days. Just like Schwarzkopf did w the Italians in WW1. Where is Sherman when you need him? Steinbrenner likely has him under contract. Marla was really smart to escape his clutches.

Gotta go...........I'm taking an internet history course for P.H.D. certification {or some type of certification for sure}.

I've said it before and will say it again........they may just bury us, but it'll be right after we KICK THEIR BUTTS!!

Free GOLD, indeed!

Learnin along,

mini

[Edit]
@Goldus and Frisco Fred -- Wolfgang, 12:16:41 10/17/03 Fri

Goldus: Germany is facing quite the same problems as the US
Rising costs in Healthcare and Energy and hidden Taxes and though creeping inflation. A country , that is working hard on social reforms, but is not very succesful to break through the barriers. Besides, the population of the elderly is growing dramatically relative to the younger people. So this disproportion makes up the shift in solving some of the problems needed ,because the elderly are a voting power, that no one dares to attack. In other words, a country without real leadership and without a vision. But our beer ( Bavarian Beer) delivers the same good old quality.

Frisco Fred: Water is key, definitely , particularly a clean one and sufficient supply of not too expensive energy.
In eastern Germany, properties are dirt cheap. Some of the former GDR " cakeshops" ( rotten houses)in the badlands are not worth investing, except for some Mafia deals, like using them for a mortgage security to create debt overseas and for money laundering. Some Living houses, to be reconstructed, for instance in the badlands of Saxony Anhalt or Mecklenburg cost only $ 3000 with some 1000 sqm. land and garages included.(Lowest first bid price at an auction house.)Even whole castles with a draw bridge and complete inventar can be acquired on auction very very cheap, for example for $ 200.000 with hectars of forests and a lake with boat-house. An old 1962er Mercedes-Benz in good condition with leather and wood features is also contained in the offer.The jobless rate there is 20 % + .The region is rotten and forgotten, but has history. Many Aristocrats and later rich-becoming civilians grew up there and spreaded all over the World from here, as well. For Example, the Name "Mansfield" , better known as Jane Mansfield is derived from Mansfelder Land. Nature and environment can be enjoyed in full shape of it`s untouched origin, because there was no industry for hundreds of years.
There are plenty of huge rich water resources there in Brandenburg and Mecklenburg, lakes , smaller and bigger ones, that no one takes care of except some fishermen or fishing birds. These water reserves could serve one day as a store of water supplym, if needed. These lakes can also be bought cheap at auction houses specialized in Eastern German properties.

Water, yes it`s key and we have lots of them.

Wolfgang

[Edit]
good read -- volavka, 11:12:33 10/17/03 Fri

http://64.4.22.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=2342e7d8f75bce05f7430d7f000e605b&lat=1066413367&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2elewrockwell%2ecom%2fdilorenzo%2fdilorenzo54%2ehtml

[Edit]
Todays good lesson in gold -- volavka, 10:56:44 10/17/03 Fri

When you put stops in you broadcast the fact that you want to bend over.

D.D.

Watch the metals Sunday nite, surprise coming...

[Edit]
Where's the beef -- volavka, 10:31:40 10/17/03 Fri

http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/2003/10/15/rtr1110313.html

[Edit]
I{Hoppin Mad}Head -- auspec, 10:30:24 10/17/03 Fri

How's it going Colonel? Maybe Bagdad Jane is also prepping for a visit?

The new UN participation is also most interesting, even though I have read nothing but the newspaper headlines to date. The US military has been used as the global arm of the globalists IF this fracus does indeed end up in UN hands. That was the call by the article from the New American Century some time ago............as well as my belief. A careful review of PNAC will also shed some insights, ne?

Either the US stays greedy and continues to take control of all the spoils OR they have to back off in order to slip under the UN umbrella..........either way Iraqi assets have changed hands. The US is still in position to dictate much from here on, regardless.

Peacekeepers........?? A job for the UN. Invasion........? Requires American know how & American arms mnfg profits. Maybe we should officially label it a growth industry?

Rumor is Bush is looking to H Rodham as next VP on his tx. Chainey is determined to be the veekest link! Goodbye! The Demopublicans then live happily ever after. American people..........another subject altogether.

Exfoliating along,

mini {Agent gold not orange}

[Edit]
Om, Where Have We Seen These Tactics Before? -- IronHead, 09:32:38 10/17/03 Fri

Somewhat remember, some folks around these woods, mentioning at the onset, how Iraq could become the NewNam for our current fodder.

Looks like we have the early stages of "good villagers" vs. "bad villagers" .....maybe soon, we'll even see a little
My Lai madness to go with those "winning" hearts and minds stories.

Maybe time to introduce those "bad villagers" to Persian rug decontamination, i.e. 'carpet bombing'?

Paris peace talks with UN leading the way, and square tables for the blockheads, in the somewhat distant future?
Oh, yes, that begun yesterday, with scripted good cop and bad cop as the UN leads the way, behind our bull-dozers. Hmmm....a new name for politicians?

From: http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=452375&host=3&dir=75

snip for whatever fair and educational use one deems necessary:

"US soldiers driving bulldozers, with jazz blaring from loudspeakers, have uprooted ancient groves of date palms as well as orange and lemon trees in central Iraq as part of a new policy of collective punishment of farmers who do not give information about guerrillas attacking US troops." end snip

Abomination of desolation; helped across the ME, with smiles and cheers amongst the Carlisle carpet cleaners, no doubt.

Learning 'trees', courtesy of Nam and Palestine; apparently being put to "good" lesson? Maybe there is still some agent Orange clogging up the Dupont warehouses, that could be put to good use, in effort to unmask the enemy in Iraq?

"[Asked how much his lost orchard was worth, Nusayef Jassim said in a distraught voice: "It is as if someone cut off my hands and you asked me how much my hands were worth."]"

Nusayef's of the world; me hopes there will come a time when a 'strong' hand shall come to slap the living shit out of those that smite thee.

Howdy to everyone,
I-Head

[Edit]
stops -- volavka, 07:13:30 10/17/03 Fri

Thanks, free money.

[Edit]
number six -- volavka, 06:24:07 10/17/03 Fri

six pack, working on both.
agree, squeeze it to 50.00 share.

[Edit]
Play it again sam -- volavka, 06:07:49 10/17/03 Fri

95% OF ALL BROKERS ARE CRIMINALS.
D.D.

[Edit]
Numero Six -- Ag_Eagle, 05:16:02 10/17/03 Fri

...answer was delayed by the All Blacks, think Endgame must have had his locals fired up, but our boys came through.

Jackie Mason? Given the topic we are both same to assume:-)

[Edit]
wake up V - cypt -- number six, 01:55:20 10/17/03 Fri

quick man! Trade it in Frankfurt!! Buy back at lunchtime. Double your position if all goes right. I expect a barnstorming positive close, but that's just my dodgy guts speaking.

[Edit]
ag eagle -- number six, 00:09:14 10/17/03 Fri

Am I safe to assume that's not Jackie Mason? :)

Volavka, your cypt might be having a half-price sale tomorrow, no? Beyond that, they clearly belong somewhere better than the otcbb, based just on volume & mkt cap alone.

[Edit]
Israel Takes Invasion Of Palestine Territories To New Level -- Ag_Eagle, 21:42:18 10/16/03 Thu

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/

[Edit]
Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 20:38:56 10/16/03 Thu











US$/POG: from www.kitco.com US$/POS: from www.kitco.com EURO/POG: from www.kitco.com [Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]










LbS/POG: from www.kitco.com London Fix: from www.kitco.com LbS/POS: from www.kitco.com


[Edit]
Damn Yankees -- auspec, 20:23:33 10/16/03 Thu

That's all there is to say.......

[Edit]
Goldus -- Frisco Fred, 20:01:05 10/16/03 Thu


>How did you get immersed in water?

FF - Thirst. Which I expect to last all my life.
My windmill should take care of that.

After the tsunami, I shall be glad to exchange some of my water for some of your au or ag :>)

Fred

[Edit]
Depth of test -- volavka, 18:14:36 10/16/03 Thu

Tonite/tomorrow should show you how the metals will hold or blow.
support @ 370.
stops 365/366.
Friday close @ or above 370 dec confirms retest of highs and resistance levels of 7 tiers to 400.

[Edit]
@Wolfgang -- Goldus, 17:22:10 10/16/03 Thu

Good to hear you've done all that!
How is Germany?
I have relatives in the Black Forest area.

[Edit]
@number six, Netking -- Goldus, 17:18:32 10/16/03 Thu

@No. six -I enjoyed your posts from yesterday morning on gold extraction, recovery facts, tailings and black gold.
The painting from Florence has appeared in at least one book exploring UFO's as I recall. Nice reproduction.
@Netking- Black gold, silver moondust: Is this how they pay for the space program?
@Frisco Fred- I was once a water filter dealer. How did you get immersed in water? For all I know of it, it's just a drop in the bucket of available info. Thanks.

[Edit]
@Iraqgate -- Goldus, 17:06:11 10/16/03 Thu

Thanks for the anecdote. Sick, truly sick over there, just like 'nam. I see in the news today some U.S. officials saying there is now a war between religions. What else is new.
That soldier's story is so typical. Tragically, he may never know why he feels the way he does about "policing" in Iraq- just gut feelings, waging war in his mind.
How will he be different from thousands of vets returned from tours in Vietnam and elsewhere? How long before sentiment for the war swings the other way? The sooner the better- but the splits are opening up already in the newspaper editorials, on campuses, in churches, in town meetings, on the web. Will the old resettlement program for Vietnamese immigrants into U.S. cities be updated for the latest refugees?

[Edit]
GATA.............Sinclair Interview -- gata, 16:09:20 10/16/03 Thu

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Thanks once more to the stenography of GATA supporter
Mark Webber, GATA is able to present to you an edited
transcript of another important program on ROB-TV in
Canada. This time it is an interview with gold partisan
Jim Sinclair, chairman of Tan Range Exploration and
proprietor of the vital Internet site JSMineset.com.
It was broadcast Tuesday evening, Toronto time.

Sinclair told ROB-TV that a new crowd is taking
leadership in the gold market and that he expects gold
to surpass $400 this month.

The transcript is appended.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

* * *

"The Business News" with Howard Green

Interview with Jim Sinclair, chairman and CEO,
Tan Range Exploration Corp.

Broadcast on Report on Business Television
in Canada on Tuesday, October 14, 2003


Green: Next a fresh voice on the gold market: Jim Sinclair,
precious metals specialist, commodities trader, and chairman
and CEO of Tan Range Exploration.... There is a new crowd in
gold, a new group of buyers putting some fizz in the market,
according to our next guest. The last time a scenario like this
existed, bullion hit US$400 and beyond. Industry veteran Jim
Sinclair is chairman of Tan Range Exploration. We spoke
earlier today. I started by getting his thoughts on Barrick's
new purchase in Russia.

Sinclair: Clearly the circumstances have changed dramatically
in Russia in terms of doing business there. In terms of what's
in the ground, it has always been known to be extraordinarily
attractive. So I would compliment Barrick in being
edge-of-the-envelope. It was an excellent buy.

Green: At the right price?

Sinclair: Well, everybody will argue prices. That's continual.
Price is what another man is willing to pay for it. So I would
just say that, knowing that company well and knowing that
they don't pay for something that they don't get, whatever
they paid was right.

Green: So generally you like the prospects in Russia for
gold?

Sinclair: I'd say that in terms of the prospects that has
always been a given. But the environment hasn't always been
a given. And those changes have taken place. Look at the
upgrading of Russia's debt. Look at the upgrading of four banks
in Russia, for investment quality, by Moody's. These are very
serious developments that reflect a higher level of governance
that never existed before.

Green: What about your company? You're chairman and CEO
of Tan Range Exploration. What's doing there? How far away
are you from something really solid?

Sinclair: It's what you define as being solid. We're an exploration
company with a focus on royalties. And we're second only to
Barrick in the area that we're in, which is in Tanzania and the
Greenstone Belt. We've defined very significant potential for
diamonds in that belt as well. So yes, I'm very confident that
Tan Range will be a very significant company in time.

Green: Do you have enough money to develop it?

Sinclair: You're basically saying, "Do I have enough money?"
Because I've been financing the company, the answer is yes.
I've done it before and I'll do it again.

Green: Moving to the subject of bullion at large. What's you're
target for bullion right now?

Sinclair: There's two targets sitting out there in front of us if the
question is in the technical sense. We've got a target at $419.21
and we've got a target of $433. And we've got, extraordinarily, nine
levels of support between the price levels of $362 and $367. We
got tested there back on "Black Friday" and it looks like gold
passed the test quite well. In fact, going off today and coming
back up to close up on the day was extraordinarily good action.

Green: Setting aside the technicals, what about the
fundamentals? What are the fundamentals driving it?

Sinclair: The fundamental driving it is the obvious fundamental of
currency. It's very hard to ignore even a few days below 110 in
the yen versus the dollar. You've got the dollar on the USDX.
You've got the extraordinary strength in the Canadian dollar. All
this reflects on gold. But more than that, you've had this
tremendous creation of liquidity in terms of being able to finance
the fiscal spending in the United States on a monetary basis.

Green: You're talking about low interest rates?

Sinclair: Not really.

Green: No?

Sinclair: What I'm talking about is the actual creation of money
supply, which really started in July. It sort of gained its
momentum and broke out of downtrends that have been there
since the December before. So the money created like that
always is the grease of the wheels of the markets. And in fact
it is one of the major reasons why you've had a tremendous
rally in your general equities for over a year.

Green: Does it mean that you're anticipating inflation?

Sinclair: It means that the equities have slowed down
momentum-wise and that money has shifted to general
commodities. If you take a look at what's happened in things
like cattle -- limit up, limit up. In soybeans: up now about a
dollar-sixty from the low of the $5 level. Tremendous bull
explosions taking place in commodities have an effect on
gold as a currency. So the slowdown in the momentum.
In other words, your equity market is not gaining at a gaining
rate. Hot money created by monetary expansion has found
its way into commodities. And that's having a significant
effect on gold as well. So those two factors are what probably
will take gold over $400. I would say certainly this year.

Green: And what if it goes through $400? Does that create
another technical push upward?

Sinclair: Well, it's, you know, I'm kind of as old as dirt.

Green: (Laughs)

Sinclair: So I was very much involved in this back in the '70s.
And the whole thing looks exactly as it looked right before the
break above $400 at that time with its significant amount of
doubters. But a break above $400 will occur only if in fact
there is now a change of the group following. And as the
commodities come alive, as the momentum in the equity
market slows down, there's a very significant possibility --
especially with these currency levels -- that more
establishment money may be attracted toward gold.

Green: What do you mean -- "more establishment money"?

Sinclair: Money that would not normally be associated
with investment in gold. Big-name investment houses.

Green: Houses that look upon it with suspicion?

Sinclair: Basically they look upon gold as being an enemy
of equities, and that's not true. But the general idea is that
if you like equities, which most investment banks do, then
liking gold becomes a contradiction to them. Now if there is
a shift in that attitude, brought on by the factors that I've
mentioned, then gold will go through $400 and establish an
entirely new investment environment in terms of the names,
the people, the institutions behind it. The old crowd is not
going to push it through $400. Quite to the contrary. They
sold at $400 or as we got up to $396 and actually put it
down. Now if you look at the equities today in gold and
notice how strong they are technically, they've made a very
significant shift in the last three days. It's only a new crowd's
entrance that could possibly have been responsible for that.
So I see a scenario that I lived through once before, when
gold went over $400 and never looked back. Now whether it
will look back here is a different story. But through $400, I
firmly believe, is, in all probability, before November.

Green: One last point before we have to go. I understand
you think there are a lot of new players in the gold market
and old players are going to get left behind. Can you tell us
what you mean by that?

Sinclair: It's always the way it happens. Even the people who
discover a bull market in equities are rarely the people in it at
the end. There's always a shift in the participants and the
players. And that's exactly what I see happening in gold now.
It's not the old crowd that turned around the gold shares in the
last three days. It's a new crowd that did. So there's evidence
out there that this might be developing. I'm not saying it is, but
the evidence is strong.

Green: Unfortunately we're out of time. It has been a pleasure
speaking with you. Hope we can do it again.

Sinclair: Thank you very much for having me.

Green: Thank you. That's Jim Sinclair, chairman and CEO of
Tan Range Exploration.

END

[Edit]
@ ALL -- Frisco Fred, 15:23:16 10/16/03 Thu


Everyone needs to read the editorial of the Wall Street Journal, Jan. 29, 2003 about the terrorist training camp in the Everglades that has been untouched by Homeland Security.

[Edit]
Wolfgang -- Frisco Fred, 15:00:57 10/16/03 Thu


I am with you 100%. And I am thinking of converting all paper money into coins. The coin will at least have a metal (zinc, copper, etc.) value. This will just be cash on hand.

Top of my priority list is water. Did you see what happened in New York today? And I think that water everywhere is quite vulnerable to being tampered with.

Others are talking of going to other countries, but I don't think it will matter what country you are in.

Enjoyed reading your post.

The breeze and I,
FF

[Edit]
Gold stocks and my outlook -- Wolfgang, 13:24:37 10/16/03 Thu

I just sold my remaining position in KGC today, I`m free of any gold stocks, though.
I just hang on my physical core position in both gold and silver. The rest is in cash. I see almost any lead bourses worldwide in a crash mode. Gold stocks could also get flushed down with the other overvalued paper holdings. I`d avoid anything to touch ,except some few base metal stocks with a PE-ratio of around one or two. Sounds ridiculous ? There are such co`s. But not many.
So I sit tight in my fortress, awaiting the "tidal wave", which I expect to come in late 2003 until 2004 or 2005.
It could be cruel for all not being prepared. I give a damn on the few % interest being paid by banks on CDs or bonds. Historically, times of artificial éxtreme low interest rates or even negative real rates, like you can witness in the US today, are marking very dangerous times, because a major change almost always lies up in front of them.
I can and really will withdraw all my cash holdings sometime in this timeframe. I do not trust banks, the merchants of debt, they are all involved in the coming debt Tsunami. Who can say, which one will hold on to it`s promises ?

So good luck ladies and gentleman here on ER, make yourself the best decisions possible.

regards
Wolfgang

[Edit]
Iraq . . . Iraq -- Iraqgate, 11:03:56 10/16/03 Thu

Wounded each day:
http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/WndByDate.aspx

Dead and wounded:
http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

Deaths both combat and non-combat: http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Details.aspx

...not a complete list by any means.

The following brief snip of an interview is with a sergeant in the U.S. Army who until recently has been completely dedicated to the cause of the US and 100% patriotic by his own definition:

"...Man conditions suck some major ass right now. Morale sucks, people are committing suicide, the Iraqis hate us and want us all dead, it’s hot as hell and the food sucks, it just is not fun or even near being nice. I have to go back and I am going to do it because it’s my duty and I wouldn’t want to do anything else. I want to be in the military and I am proud to be in Iraq. I just want it to really mean something more than what it does know.”

“I have not seen any rebuilding or anything like the US and Bush promised all the Iraqi people. That is one of the reason they are so pissed off and hate us like they do. We haven’t started to do shit to really help them, not like we the mission we were supposed to be there to do.”

“I am a Republican and proud of that to. I voted for Bush and I want him to lead this country against our enemies like he promised. I never thought a few months ago that I would be saying this to anyone. I wanted to go to Iraq and do what had to be done. I would have volunteered if I hadn’t had my unit ordered over. Now I wonder why I was so quick to get on the big bandwagon.”

“I am a red blooded American soldier and I am proud of my country. I just think Bush needs to change the way we are fighting this war. give us more men to do the job or figure out how to keep the peace over here. I didn’t sign up to be a fu..ing cop or a peace keeper, I joined up to fight and to protect and defend my country. I never thought I would be acting like a cop in Iraq and not being able to figure out who was my enemy...”

[Edit]
maybe all these guys/girls martha -- volavka, 09:34:07 10/16/03 Thu

should learn the texas 10 commandments:

1) Just one God.
(2) Honor yer Ma 'n Pa.
(3) No telling tales or gossipin'.
(4) Git yourself to Sunday meetin'.
(5) Put nothin' before God.
(6) No foolin' around with another fellow's gal.
(7) No murderin'.
(8) Watch yer mouth.
(9) Don't take what ain't yers.
(10) Don't be hankerin' for yer buddy's stuff.

[Edit]
Dick Gr(ass)ho -- volavka, 09:20:35 10/16/03 Thu

200 million to let specialists front the inter positioning prior to the little guy getting filled..

[Edit]
This is a no brainer -- volavka, 08:02:44 10/16/03 Thu

There is no place left to go except metals, now!!!

[Edit]
China shoot you the moon -- volavka, 07:01:59 10/16/03 Thu

and shoot gold to moon too.

[Edit]
Go red and gold -- volavka, 06:36:31 10/16/03 Thu

Red Sox Boston rules.

[Edit]
Flubs -- auspec, 04:36:31 10/16/03 Thu

So be it...........

[Edit]
"Flubs"? -- auspec, 18:33:29 10/15/03 Wed

3 to 3
we shall soon see
sacrifice the damn goat & be done w it
sox live to die another day?

[Edit]
John Snow -- volavka, 17:30:22 10/15/03 Wed

This guy is total, total total bull shit.
Massive Bull shitter!!!!

[Edit]
We never learn... -- OmarD, 15:46:00 10/15/03 Wed

(Daily Reckoning) http://www.dailyreckoning.com./

Lessons Unlearned in the Middle East

by M Iftikhar Malik


"...A review of British presence in the region from the end of the 19th century to the middle of 20th century is warranted to remind us of how even the experienced imperialists blundered badly. For Britain's failed effort to master Iraq earlier contains a warning to American policymakers of what to expect down the road..."

History has a strange way of repeating itself. The "axis of evil" in Washington - made up of the Pentagon, the Jewish lobby and the neo-conservative Christian-right - having hijacked the White House and US foreign policy, remain the chief proponents of the adventure of illegal and unjustified war against a sovereign nation, and continue steering a great nation like America down a perilous path. Mounting casualties, the cost of occupation and post-war reconstruction, increasingly negative public opinion at home and abroad, not to mention the fact the Iraqis - whether Shi'ites or Sunnis - clearly despise the idea of being ruled by a foreign power. Open hostility towards the occupying troops patrolling the streets of every major Iraqi town, should be a wakeup call for the US/British leaders to start accepting the realities of failed misadventures in Iraq, and exit gracefully.

The irony of the whole affair is that of all foreign powers, Britain once again sent its own troops to be slaughtered alongside the American forces, in the same part of the world half a century later - lessons of history all but forgotten!

The question then needs to be asked not if history will repeat itself in Iraq, but at what scale. Almost 100 US soldiers have been killed, and thousands more wounded just since the end of "major combat", as declared by President George W Bush. Countless Iraqis have needlessly perished trying to resist the occupation. Billions have been spent trying to pacify the resistance. Billions more will be spent to reconstruct Iraq from the ashes. As things stand today, the outcome this time around is not likely to be any different than that suffered by the conquerors of the Ottoman and British empires."


------------

History does of course repeat itself...especially to those who ignor it. As has been stated here over and over...the real "costs" are immeasurable...the future of this once grand country is gloomy at best. I, in fact, question its very survival...all the seeds of self-destruction are planted and just a matter of time before they "sprout"

Preparation for and having a plan is best defense...it also provides "some" comfort knowing that you have taken the most prudent steps possible to prepare for the coming upheaval...too bad so few see it.

Sadly,

OmarD

[Edit]
N6 -- Netking, 11:05:13 10/15/03 Wed

Hmmm, could be N6, or possibly even Endgame the Canuckonaut from the North.

[Edit]
netking -- number six, 10:57:06 10/15/03 Wed

Maybe that first picture is Tai the Taikonaut?

[Edit]
Numero Six . . . Black gold ['n silver] discovered -- Netking, 10:40:08 10/15/03 Wed



Yep, Black Gold discovered, and ANOTHER showing Caught in the act on location

N6, if you have doubts, please just deal with it.

[Edit]
Don't know about gold -- volavka, 10:24:34 10/15/03 Wed

do know that if cubs don't win tonite, that kid goes into the witness protection program.

[Edit]
HiHat -- volavka, 07:26:16 10/15/03 Wed

short squeeze in cypt, in @ .12 and .18

[Edit]
Pensions -- volavka, 06:40:17 10/15/03 Wed

8.8 billion deficit.
still growing.

Puppet dust coming while clowns run country into dust.

[Edit]
ot - maybe this is where all that gold is from??? :) -- number six, 05:47:35 10/15/03 Wed

This 15th Century painting hangs in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence, and a reproduction is bluetacked in my hallway. It's from http://www.ufoartwork.com/ There's now a coffee table book full of paintings on a similar theme.





---
One certainty can be enough to destroy all others.

[Edit]
spare gold -- number six, 04:10:22 10/15/03 Wed

And besides, I thought Sitchin's Sumerian alien Mermen had our ancestors dig all the high-grade gold to repair the atmosphere on their home planet! Maybe the shipment got lost due to some logistical error, or Nazi time travelling ufonauts intercepted it? I bet the mermen weren't expecting that one.

If 40 bil oz au and 400 bil oz ag have been extracted from Earth, the tailings would be eminently findable, and given the metal recovery limitations of times gone by, these tailings would be richer than any of the deposits being mined today. Does Guyatt know where I should start looking?

[Edit]
tai -- number six, 02:25:57 10/15/03 Wed

Tai said -"Give me a break. When you cannot actually see something, instead you look for the effects the unseeable has on something that's clearly visible. I believe astronomers etc use the same princple to detect unseen planets etc."

This is a good principle of inference. All this alleged unseeable pm would have an effect on the ground - look for evidence of past mine workings - there's nothing on the required scale.

Tai - "We can see there's ample Gold and Silver, by watching the effects on the visible markets. What else do we need to know.?. Answer: Nothing. It's gotta be out there somewhere, somehow. Just deal with it."

I thought paper manipulation could explain most of the price action?? Obviously, we haven't completely run out of ag or au yet, but that's never been the point.

[Edit]
40 bil extra au oz's, 400 bil extra ag oz's ???? -- number six, 02:04:54 10/15/03 Wed

SO where were these ounces mined from? Atlantis? These days production is higher than ever due to the prevalence of open pit mining. Did they have g-normous open pits in the olden days but cover them up perfectly such that archaelogists and exploration geologists have no clues? If you took all the known old workings and assume somehow that their grades were maybe 100 times greater than what you would think they were, then you might be getting close.

Look at the South African gold deposits - best (known) deposits in the world, accounts for a billion ounces of past production plus reserves. These workings would be visible from space! (maybe not saying much if spy satellites can read licence plates, but you know what I mean.) They're huge, and people could recognise them for what they are for 10's of thousands of years. Has there been the equivalent of 40 of these operating over the years, but which nobody knows about? Exploration geologists would give their left one to sniff around any such historical find. And they are known to look in all the best places, you know. And they understand the trends and districts which contain such deposits, and the geological forces behind them. They've had a look nearly everywhere.

Now maybe placer deposits were hugely more prevalent and rich in the olden days, compared to today's occasional find. And this could account for quite a lot. But it's such a long bow to draw to say this accounts for 40 billion ounces. You'd have to posit kilos/tonne au deposits sitting shallow all over the place, being found and smelted by pre-historic furry guys.


I could imagine black gold being a decent percentage of the known historical production, but not a huge multiple of it. Otherwise, the evidence would be everywhere. multiply all silver number by ten on the absurdometer.

[Edit]
PRC in space -- Netking, 01:20:46 10/15/03 Wed

Some more beautiful shots, enjoy:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200310/15/eng20031015_126053.shtml

[Edit]
How to Propel Gold to The Moon... Silver too, Of Course.. -- Tai, 00:18:35 10/15/03 Wed

[snip]

China invented gunpowder and legend holds that a
Ming dynasty (1368-1644) official named Wan Hu
attempted the world's first space launch. He strapped
himself to a chair with kites in each hand as 47
servants lit 47 gunpowder-packed bamboo tubes tied
to the seat.

When the smoke had cleared, Wan was found to
have been obliterated. But the dream was not.

[unsnip]

Link:

China Orbits First "Taikonaut"

[Edit]
Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 22:42:51 10/14/03 Tue











US$/POG: from www.kitco.com US$/POS: from www.kitco.com EURO/POG: from www.kitco.com [Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]










LbS/POG: from www.kitco.com London Fix: from www.kitco.com LbS/POS: from www.kitco.com


[Edit]
@_Endgame: Seeing What's Hidden... It's Not a Paradox... -- Tai, 22:38:37 10/14/03 Tue

Hello Endgame...

You said:

"Now if David Guyatt is correct and there really is about 40 billion ounces of gold around, then
where did they hide the 400 billion ounces of silver?"

-and-

"The main point that I was trying to make is that if you believe in the Black Lies gold story, you have to come up with an
explanation as to where the silver is, because these numbers do not lie."

Tai Comment (tongue almost in cheek)...

Where is the Silver.?. Don't know for sure, but it sure seems to come into the market
via London, whenever the POSilver gets "out of control" (ho hum, dejavue, etc)...
ie: above their benchmark control point of 3 Lbs Stering per ounce.

Why are we unable to believe things exist, just because we cannot see them.?.

There are many things in life we cannot see nor physically touch nor account.
Yet we know they exist, and take it for granted. Yet Silver (and Gold) must
be confined to stricter rules.?. In an environment that reeks historically of
secretness, cloaked in mystery and intrigue, falsification, disinformation,
and all the rest.

Give me a break. When you cannot actually see something, instead you look
for the effects the unseeable has on something that's clearly visible. I
believe astronomers etc use the same princple to detect unseen planets etc.

We can see there's ample Gold and Silver, by watching the effects on the
visible markets. What else do we need to know.?. Answer: Nothing. It's gotta
be out there somewhere, somehow. Just deal with it.

...Tai

[Edit]
journeyman -- Frisco Fred, 22:05:01 10/14/03 Tue


You may be interested in article Politics of Assassination by David Hoffman at Pravda.ru of
10/03/03.

[Edit]
Miscellany -- Goldustorm, 22:03:02 10/14/03 Tue

@Tai- Smedley Butler- What a guy. Timeless.
@Volavka- Keep on truckin. You get my share of the roadkill- I'm vegetarian.
@Dotti and Jomama- Your posts correspond. I've posted on this subject before but for now I'll say I'm sure you'll see N. America makes out better than the rest of the world after the coming climax/collapse/crisis.
Jomama- Your points about perspective are akin to a subjective/objective debate. But you don't sound like a vascillator or indecisive, but even that assertion is an assumption, being relative to one's experience and contingent upon some standard and so, not absolute.

[Edit]
Head count -- Goldustorm, 21:40:19 10/14/03 Tue

I hope that didn't scare you like it did me when I wrote it- "Head count". Does have multiple meanings. But the schoolteacher's classroom analogy beckons all visitors to say hello periodically in this our cyberspace coffeehouse and anywhere else you may wish, including private emails.
For myself and the many supporting readers, please share any insights or thoughts as you have time. Thank you.
Best Regards,
Mike B.

[Edit]
"Go for it" -- Goldustorm, 21:18:58 10/14/03 Tue

Great posts. Omar, Flinter, Beesting, Netking, RossL, Auspec, Sojo, Journeyman, Ironhead, Qwerty, Tai, Rex, Endgame, All- keep it up.
Endgame- Your work is expounded thoughtfully and rather persuasively, IMO. True, no one can cover every angle or have every bit of documentation where inadequate reporting of global current events and finance is the rule, not the exception. But your persistent independent thinking is all the more valuable because of the opposition fresh and creative ideas attract. Various issues seem to have been exhausted, but you and others like you manage to develop entirely new angles!
It's one of the finest qualities of ER forum also, that fresh and progressive thinking boldly sprout even when not invited by a warm climate of tolerance and optimism on days when posts are fewer or world news is depressing.
Reminds of how "necessity is the mother of invention" just as "variety is the spice of life".
And how the minutest particles in the universe demonstrate consciousness. Man's free will is being used to express the purpose of that (C)consciousness, and his responsible use of that power will open up the living potential of creation for himself and all the universe.

Aum, Hum, Amen, Om, Shanti, Shalom, Peace brothers and sisters everywhere.

[Edit]
Still on tract for big move -- volavka, 16:53:33 10/14/03 Tue

FAITH. END OF STORY.
+ BIG GUY SAID SO.

[Edit]
Be Prepared -- volavka, 16:48:27 10/14/03 Tue

like boy scouts, derivatives jerks taking out contracts on how long pope will last.

When will the sickness end???????

[Edit]
@Ag_Eagle - silver stories -- Endgame, 16:30:17 10/14/03 Tue

I did a previous post regarding the gold/silver ratio on my website. It can be accessed by clicking on the Archive button and typing ppm in the “search for” box. Basically the ratio of gold to silver in nature is somewhere between 15 and 20 to 1. Historically it has been mined at a ratio of between 8 to 1 and 18 to 1, depending on the time and place. It has averaged about 10.7 to 1. There is no question of the validity of these numbers as they represent the variance in gold and silver coin values through out history. If they had been mined in a different ratio then the value of the coins would have revealed that fact.

If you look at more current production, a ratio of about 7 or 8 to 1 seems to be the norm. This is probably due to the fact that gold mines were aggressively brought into production, partly to keep the gold price depressed. But some of this variance was definitely China not reporting a big portion of its silver production. This showed up when the Chinese silver numbers were compared to their copper, lead and zinc production numbers (silver being a byproduct of these mines).

The main point that I was trying to make is that if you believe in the Black Lies gold story, you have to come up with an explanation as to where the silver is, because these numbers do not lie.

Regards,
Endgame

PS: I am assuming that the points that you threw in about consumption were the typical red herrings.

[Edit]
@jomama -- dotti, 16:15:39 10/14/03 Tue

Yep. I agree. We are so anxious to see the dollar decline against other currencies so that our manufacturing will thrive. Uh-huh.

People really buy into this?

Am I nuts or is the rest of the US nuts? Accepting that our pols are wanting to depreciate the dollar so that our exports will be competitive?

How low would the dollar have to go for our manufacturing to be competitive--or even our IT services? I just can't imagine it.

I think that the rest of the world is getting ready to jettison us. Pricing of oil in euros is just a symptom, as is the decline of the dollar. We are a nation of people out of control and the rest of the world knows it.

I am considering a move myself. Costa Rica, maybe. I don't know. Too difficult to make such a drastic change. Too scarey.

I'll be on tv tomorrow morning--live--promoting myself, my products, and the arts & crafts show that I will be in this weekend. If they only knew how "dark" my impression of our future is....

I still question: Can the rest of the world "surgically remove" us without killing the patient--i.e., the world economy? I think it is possible. I think that it is already underway. It is happening right now.

Anybody disagree?

Take care, All.

dotti

[Edit]
Dollar assets & hubris -- jomama, 15:21:16 10/14/03 Tue

This is hilarious:

"Given the American deficits,
other economists are also looking
at the dollar as overvalued. As
the American economy's weakness
comes into focus, the dollar has
to fall to reflect its real
fundamentals. Therefore US
Treasury Secretary John Snow
welcomed a Group of Seven
statement that currencies should
be allowed to find their own
level, calling it "a milestone
change". His remark was against
the backdrop of Japan's dramatic
intervention in the forex market
last year, equivalent to Ireland's
entire GDP in an effort to keep
the yen below 115 to the US dollar."

"should be allowed...should be allowed?"

Bwahahahaha.

The dolts lost control of
the currency markets years ago and now
they have no choice but to go with the flow
and the hubris to say "should be *allowed*.

But I've seen this hubris before and I'm
sure I'll see it again.

Sorry, I can't stop laughing.

But take a look at the whole page:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/EJ10Dh01.html

[Edit]
qwerty -- jomama, 15:17:14 10/14/03 Tue

A few answers...maybe...


Keep this in mind while u read my responses to ur questions below:

No two people even live on the same planet.
They only look similar enough to fool us into believing that we do.

and...

Unless it's obvious from my statement that I've had personal experience in something, all I say
beyond that is pure speculation. I don't *know* sqwat except what I experience personally
and even then, I ain't sure. Shit morphs in this world...and fast.

Then there's ur paradigm, hir paradigm, and mine....and ours:

Tother day, a friend held up a stone and said: "Ain't that a purty purple." My wife and I
sitting in front of the fellow said, in unison: "Are u color blind? It's red." Then I thot
to look at the stone from his angle. It was purple. The light was behind him.

BTW, neither does anyone else know sqwat. I don't trust anyone's judgment but me own...and I don't even
trust that tomorrow.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Now, to ur questions:

....do you speak spanish

Yup. But I know a number of folks of the more northern persuasions that speak nary a word.
U might want to learn some restaurant spanish and some useful phrases but there are a fair number
of mexicans who speak a good or fair english. If they don't speak it, they understand it.

....where in mexico do you think are the best locations

Southwest and Oaxaca and depends what u want. Suggest u dig around in google. Guadalajara, Barra de Navidad,
Colima, Jalisco, Nayarit, Manzanillo, Mazatlan. I stay away from the tourist areas as living areas. Only to visit occasionally. Prices there are "world class", if ya know what I mean.

....what do you see as the advantages / disadvantages

The biggest advantage is that I think mexicans are generally the most tolerant people on earth. They're more likely
than most to let other people alone as long as what other folks are doing ain't in their face. 'course they expect
that in return.

Biggest disadvantage: Lottsa "mananas" for getting something done. "I'll be here manana."
Many times manana never comes.

But if you do ur homework u can find good people who show up on time and get the job done AND are qualified. If u hear
manana just go somewhere else. The Mexican sense of time is very different from gringo time.

Wal-Marts, Sam's & Costco are in the cities so many products and foods ur used to
are here. ISPs are everywhere, many DSL or fixed-base wireless. Bring ur own portable or desktop. Buying
from "up there" costs another big chunk in duties but u can get thru with ur own personal unit without
paying.

Second biggest disadvantage: If u want something special imported from "up north" be prepared to wait and
have it go thru customs. If it's made in China, no matter where it comes from, it's gonna get whacked with
a big duty. Mexicans are scared of cheap Chinese labor.

There are lottsa advantages and a few more disadvantages but I'm not gonna get into that here.

BTW, I just met a couple of gringos who sailed thru Mx customs and were never stopped.

....isn't mexico under the north american military command structure

Dunno. But if ur implying they could be taken over by The Collosus of the North, as it's known here...
what would stop them, north american military command structure or not? And the Mexicans would welcome
them. After all, where does an 800lb gorilla sleep?

....i only took visits to border areas a couple times but it seemed very dangerous or at least i sensed that

So were some sections of Indianapolis when I lived in that area years ago. And how about downtown Detroit
a couple o years ago?...maybe still. Dunno. Watts? There are many places in Mx I wouldn't go. That's true
about many places on the planet.

It's been many years since I passed thru any border town. I didn't like 'em then and don't now.

I'll stay out of Mx City. To many people, and too many baddies in some areas. Never been there, won't go but
most folks say it's a hell of a nice place to visit.

I've sensed danger (speculation) once in the years that I've been here and I used an old chinaman's advice:

Of all the 36 ways to get out of trouble, the best is to leave.

....i never cared to do much traveling outside but the political climate in the US has turned very dark and it has motivated me ... the cultural and language transition i can live with when one considers the economic and political risk

Dark, to put it mildly in my view. Don't have a dime up there or a reason to go back.

But I've lived or visited a number of places on the planet so I'm used to that.

U may not be suited for it. All u can do is give it a shot and see how it sits w/ ya.

[Edit]
Endgame -- Ag_Eagle, 14:39:04 10/14/03 Tue

Howdy Endgame, hope it's not getting too cold up there in the far-north for you guys just yet, [smile].

You re: "...according to official statistics, all of the gold ever mined comes to about 4 billion ounces and all of the silver ever mined comes to about 40 billion ounces..."

You re: "..if there really is about 40 billion ounces of gold around, then where did they hide the 400 billion ounces of silver...?"

Ag Mon: Pertaining to "deep storage" supply, Ag is found in the ground at a 6:1 over gold, or up to 10:1 in history.

You need to ask:
* Where does the 40 billion figure come from? If Au:Ag supply was in the ground at say a 1:10 ratio, was it mined at the same ratio?
* How much silver has been consumed over the last 6 thousand years?
* How much of the above could/would be recoverable?
* What consumtion figures do you base your premise on?
* If you are correct, where is the silver, how much is there & why is it there?
* Why do you believe the paper [Comex] market will not falter & represents the best Ag investment medium rather than physical?.
* What do you think about the PG metals history of exchange/market default? Why do you think this happened & why could this not repeat for Ag? ie why would history not repeat?

Gotta run to "Fleet street"....back here tonight.

[Edit]
Can you think of an explanation? @ALL -- journeyman, 14:32:05 10/14/03 Tue

Hi ALL!
This last hour of [stock market] trading has had a noticable characteristic over the last few months -- up to the last hour, the markets may be down or neutral, and then in the last hour, they go way up. ... Long-short hedge funds have been shorting the market and are up only 10% in the last few months while the markets they play has been up 17%. How could the smart money be getting things so wrong? -Bob Pisani, CNBC, October 14, 2003, 17:13:35

Regards,
Journeyman

[Edit]
@Ag_Eagle – Sorry I scared you -- Endgame, 12:02:53 10/14/03 Tue

Especially with Halloween just around the corner, I am sure that there will be plenty of sights and sounds that will also send shivers down your spine. Not to worry. It will probably be just kids dressed as ghosts and goblins, running around looking for a hand out.

Maybe you can clarify some thing for me. As you know, silver is normally found in nature at about a 10 to 1 ratio to gold. And according to official statistics, all of the gold ever mined comes to about 4 billion ounces and all of the silver ever mined comes to about 40 billion ounces. Now if David Guyatt is correct and there really is about 40 billion ounces of gold around, then where did they hide the 400 billion ounces of silver?

Regards,
Endgame

[Edit]
rule change -- volavka, 11:34:05 10/14/03 Tue

Shortz saved by the Merc as they change the rules...
***************************************8
CME live cattle futures on Tuesday were limit-up in nearby months as futures try to catch up with the cash market. Back months were limit-down as new expanded daily limits, which would likely take effect on Wednesday, should allow shorts to exit the market on spreads, traders said.

Under new CME regulations announced on Tuesday morning, if either of the two nearby, even month contracts close up or down the limit for two consecutive days, the normal 1.500 cent limit would increase to 3.000 cents. If either contract closes up or down the limit for two more consecutive days, that limit would go to 5.000 cents.

However, if either month fails to close the extended limit-up or -down, the limit would fall back to the next lowest level in the next day's session.

The new regulations go into effect on Wednesday and would take into account the previous six days.

Since the October contract LCV3 was locked limit-up for the seventh straight day on Tuesday, it appeared likely that the newly announced daily limit of 5.000 cents would take effect on Wednesday.

The CME also announced that it was increasing by 33 percent the margin or good-faith deposits it charges to trade live cattle futures due to "market volatility." Margin increases usually act to force some liquidation of holdings. ( ( Reporting by Karl Plume; editing by Matthew Lewis; Reuters Messaging: karl.plume.reuters.com@reuters.net; karl.plume@reuters.com. Chicago commodities desk ( 312 ) 408-8720 ) )

[Edit]
apll -- volavka, 11:30:42 10/14/03 Tue

http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/031014/058592.html

[Edit]
Silver - Butler -- Netking, 11:22:46 10/14/03 Tue

The MOABO? By Theodore Butler

http://www.investmentrarities.com/10-14-03.html

[Edit]
KOREA, CHINA, AND THE US / The Murder of David Kelly -- Netking, 11:17:45 10/14/03 Tue

According to The Asia Times, China Has Just Moved 150,000 troops to its border with North Korea and is widening the roads for armor. Former West Point instructor and retired Special Forces veteran Stan Goff makes sense of an increasingly dangerous situation.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/101403_korea_summary.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Journalist Jim Rarey confirms the suspicions held by many that British Microbiologist David Kelly - at the center of Britain's intelligence scandal - was murdered. Rarey has done the hard methodical work of deconstructing the official version. Not only is the Blair government teetering as a domino that may fall towards Washington, another world-class microbiologist has died under mysterious circumstances. Part I

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/101403_kelly_1.html

[Edit]
total garbage day -- volavka, 10:42:32 10/14/03 Tue

Comex pigs holding metals down , now will be punished for their bull shit ways.

Like new york share mkt these pigs (specialists) will lose, mkts will move total electronic and OFFSHORE.
911 all over again..

[Edit]
Cars -- volavka, 09:29:03 10/14/03 Tue

Cattle traded by cars, rail cars, Hillary in @ .68 now over 100.

Eat crow.

[Edit]
resistance in au -- volavka, 08:40:14 10/14/03 Tue

being taken out now.

[Edit]
Remember -- volavka, 05:45:36 10/14/03 Tue

Dec stops are @ 365/366, these pricks will run for them.

[Edit]
merk is merc -- volavka, 05:40:12 10/14/03 Tue


[Edit]
Emergency meeting merk -- volavka, 05:39:17 10/14/03 Tue

cattle locked limit, talks on expanding limits and/or change of game similar to silver shot by big bunk.

Watch same results @ comex with silver/gold coming soon.

China will not be held liable for U.S. dollar.
Do not shift blame on us or our currency, there it isn't, we buy gold with your rainbow rout

[Edit]
Endgames fine place -- Ag_Eagle, 01:24:07 10/14/03 Tue

The man himself from Tai's link says:

"...Silver is being groomed to run big time. And if you play in paper silver this is an opportunity to make a fortune" Trying to win at this game with physical silver might present a problem. After all, by the time that you rent a truck to take your silver to market, the game will be done..." [10/8/2003 9:42:55 PM] http://www.endgame.ca

Comment: Yep..."fine analysis" indeed Endgame, your intellect is frightening me at this point.

[Edit]
Frisco Fred -- qwerty, 22:14:48 10/13/03 Mon

>will the dollar go strong or go weak as a result of the nudging of Bush on Japan and China?

japan and china have shown interest in supporting the dollar by buying US bonds and currency

so i think the nudging is irrelevant to what they dollar does

but one can question whether it is really going on or what it means

i think if you got all the heads of their financial intelligence of all the major countries in the world in a private meeting and ask them what will happen to the dollar ... there would be a consensus and say it is heading down

the real question is - WHEN

as far as the time table ... i could only ball park my guess and say within 2 years ...

i could make a better guess if i was privvy to the inside financial intelligence

i would say the insiders have a good idea of a time table

i am still in the dark as far as when

[Edit]
Thanks, @_Endgame... -- Tai, 22:08:54 10/13/03 Mon

Although Endgame disagrees with this eyeopening Essay by David Guyatt...

http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/the_spoils_of_war.htm

For those (few) of us who feel there is alot of unreported Gold around somewhere,
influencing these markets, Guyatt's latest material contains much food for thought.

Thanks for posting that, Endgame, at your fine Forum site:

http://www.endgame.ca

[Edit]
@Jman... & Other Fans Of USMC Gen Smedley Butler... -- Tai, 21:56:53 10/13/03 Mon

"War is a Racket"

Reprint of a 1935 speech by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC

[snips]
WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope.
It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a
small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the
very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War [I] a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and
billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in
their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them
knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights,
ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy?
How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?

Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired
territory promptly is exploited by the few -- the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The
general public shoulders the bill.

And what is this bill?

This bill renders a horrible accounting. Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken
hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for
generations and generations.
{unsnips]

Link to the Full Text

Posted under the fair-use doctrine, material believed to be in the Public Domain:
"Reprinted under the Fair Use doctrine of international copyright law."
"http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html"

[Edit]
mineweb gold psyops -- qwerty, 21:47:43 10/13/03 Mon

===
A trader at a major South African bank said many market players shared the view that gold would hit $400/oz before the end of the year, but that the sell-off once the metal breached that level could be massive. “Some are saying that after we hit $400/oz, we could go as low as $350/oz – the funds are expected to liquidate their positions rapidly, and few people are bullish at levels over $400/oz.”
===

seems like another psyops against gold

mineweb's says it has "uncomprising independence"

it is cabal operated disinformation site

the above stuff from mineweb would scare the shit out of naive investors and keep them out


could this also be the cabals next attack strategy

after hitting 400, they dump a lot of metal in the market

you know they have to keep people afraid of gold

the problem is, if it holds 395-400 for a few days time, prechter will have to become bullish

so a planned bombing of it would take place

whether they succeed would depend on the savvy long traders

[Edit]
@Frisco Fred -- Goldustorm, 21:31:37 10/13/03 Mon

Qwerty is right. It's a bogus conflict except that the only one's indemnified from casualties and collateral damage in this WMD (weapons of mass destruction) age are the puppetmasters and the pigs who squeal the loudest- "Wee, wee, wee". Right up until they turn on each other which requires that they constantly replenish their ranks, drawing new collaberators and powerful, leveraged or publicly instrumental social, financial, political, academic, religious, media, or fraternal vested interests through infiltration, bribery, blackmail, coercion, treason or treachery.
As for the dollar, I think these volatile upward explosions like tonight, accompanied by theatrically obvious King Kong Nikkei stepping like tonight, do not necessarily mean the sky is falling. But there are pigs squealing "wee, wee, wee" so hang in there!

[Edit]
qwerty -- Frisco Fred, 21:28:12 10/13/03 Mon


I agree about the perpetual war and I also had a chuckle about Leichenstein. But the question is - will the dollar go strong or go weak as a result of the nudging of Bush on Japan and China?
Breezing along,
FF

[Edit]
Frisco Fred -- qwerty, 20:47:13 10/13/03 Mon

>Bush can't push too hard because he knows that Japan and China are key to North Korea talks.

North Korea is just a bogus conflict manufactured by the US government and elites

it helps perpetuate the goal of the endless war and planned destruction of america

let's assume for a moment that the north korea thing is real ... well, the idea that north korea is a threat to the US is laughable beyond belief

gee, remember the threat that libya posed ... and how about grenada ( talk about reaching ) ... president and congress and the controlled media could convice americans to bomb leichenstein because it posed a threat to the US

a massive attack against the US constitution and america is being carried out. ironically, american people have responded by giving the attackers of the US constitution and america their support ... it's a real catch-22

[Edit]
Strong dollar/Weak dollar -- Frisco Fred, 20:13:38 10/13/03 Mon


Japan has free floating currency valuation. China hooks the value of the yuan to US$. Next week
Bush is going to speak (more softly than did Snow) to the two countries about loosening up - wanting a weaker dollar. China and Japan are expected to draw up a trade agreement and one for Japan with AESA (China already has one). Bush can't push too hard because he knows that Japan and China are key to North Korea talks. What are your speculations about the outcome?

Which way will the wind blow?
FF

[Edit]
mr cryptic -- qwerty, 19:33:18 10/13/03 Mon

>volavka. enjoy your posts. Wish I understood them.

we should address him as "cryptic"

and also volavka has the shortest posts on the internet

[Edit]
ECB: Pricing Oil in Euros Sensible -- Goldustorm, 17:30:34 10/13/03 Mon

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/10/14/041.html
Read for the gold implications or just look at all the golden hair on Dussie's head!
More bullish news that just keeps piling up.
And you've got to love Hussain Khan's article in the Asia Times regarding sales of "dollar-denominated assets", posted at Prudent Bear Home- (How do you get your name changed like that?) Also GE earnings pus forma. Iraq hawks cannibalizing, etc.

[Edit]
@Global2000, J-man, volavka -- dotti, 16:44:28 10/13/03 Mon

volavka. enjoy your posts. Wish I understood them.

Global2000 and J-man. Thanks for response. I am becoming less and less sure that a collapse of the dollar will mean a collapse of the world economy. I think that other nations are also wondering about that. If they think that they can "run the world without us", I suppose they will try.

Global, why do you think that a collapse of the dollar will burn all currencies? Chinese and others are accumulating gold. All that has to happen is for others to go back to gold standard of some sort--we can't handle that. That's why Nixon took us off the gold standard. We were not able to curb our appetites for foreign goods.

J-man, I agree that we are waning on the global scene. Not just manufacturing--also, look at Intel's cEO's comments--death nell. Even in the services sector we are falling behind.

If Global is right, then we may be in a situation to "buy time". Otherwise, we are toast. I don't think that we are the center of the universe anymore, toto.

Take care, All.

Thanks for comments.

dotti

[Edit]
Where's the beef -- volavka, 14:23:13 10/13/03 Mon

Limit up going expanded limits, no inflation here...

Eat crow.
Get spanish Goats now...

http://charts3.barchart.com/chart.asp?sym=LCV3&data=A&jav=adv&vol=Y&evnt=adv&grid=Y&code=BSTK&org=stk&fix=

[Edit]
inversion in gold mkt -- volavka, 14:01:15 10/13/03 Mon

very strong pattern.
Could start the short squeeze tonite.


Drooy was super buy today, here me Ray!!!

[Edit]
You must know -- volavka, 13:52:13 10/13/03 Mon

The CPDCI.
Closing price directional change indicator.
It is 93% correct and tells you the direction daily.
Not perfect but I'll take 93%.

[Edit]
Cattle/gold -- volavka, 13:43:05 10/13/03 Mon

Bill M over @ gata has something posted about relationship of commercials in cattle and gold.

Follow the beef follow my point, Dr Hwang.

[Edit]
Manufacturing?? -- journeyman, 11:43:08 10/13/03 Mon

Hi ALL!

When figuring what the melt-down will be like, keep in mind that less than 18% of the u.S. economy is currently manufacturing - - - that is, 82% of the economy here is "something else."

Regards,
journeyman

[Edit]
dotti -- Global2000, 10:05:16 10/13/03 Mon

When the USD "crashes" all paper will burn, everywhere, yes, it's going to be the biggest show in town. Expect there to be a new currency not just in the USA, say no more.

[Edit]
Found Gold & "Storage..." -- OmarD, 08:34:21 10/13/03 Mon

For those that (like me) spend very little time reading "Forbes"...I found off another link...

http://www.forbes.com/2003/09/30/cx_0930hot.html



Found: Afghan Gold
Martin Bailey for The Art Newspaper

Snips...



"...The Bactrian gold, Afghanistan's greatest treasure, escaped destruction from the Taliban and has been found in a locked vault beneath the presidential palace compound..."

"...The Bactrian gold was found a month ago, almost by chance, when government officials opened a vault which they believed would contain bullion bars belonging to the central bank. This secure area set in concrete beneath a treasury building in the presidential palace compound had been sealed in 1989, when the Afghan government was still backed by the Soviet Union. Successive regimes, including the Taliban, made numerous attempts to gain access, but all failed to open the seven locks which secured the thick steel door. The keys were each held by different people, who by this time were dispersed around the world..."

"...Eventually, on Aug. 28, specialist locksmiths brought from Germany managed to gain access. President Hamid Karzai and Finance Minister Ashraf Ghani then entered the vault, but significantly the Culture Minister and Kabul Museum director were not present--because the $90 million of bullion was regarded as the major find..."



Must have been quite a "safe" --- would be interesting to see photos of.

Lots of trouble to protect that 'ol "barbarous metal"

Reminds me of massive underground "storage" vaults I saw being constructed in "Jebel Ali" (between Abu Dhabi & Dubai - "Gold Capital of the World" - in UAE) 10 years ago..."massive" is understatement...100's of European engineers...shiploads of concrete and steel delivered daily...football field size holes in ground 100's (?) feet deep...

Remember wondering at time...what in the world could the Arabs have (or plan on having) that justify all that "protection"...am pretty sure I know now!

Wa Salaam,

OmarD



PS: Get "yours" NOW! - as "volavka" almost daily reminds us, - the "scramble" for the big stuff is nearing its end...the "scramble" for the "little" is just getting underway...Om




[Edit]
cry babies -- volavka, 07:57:56 10/13/03 Mon

Is that it on running for stops, can't even get it under 370.
You know , we know that if you hold it here till close, we'll press you hard tomorrow.

[Edit]
Re: GATA -- gata, 16:48:20 10/12/03 Sun -- dotti, 07:22:00 10/13/03 Mon

Re: GATA -- gata, 16:48:20 10/12/03 Sun

Quote:
But Morgan Stanley analyst Stephen Jen says fears of a
dollar collapse are unwarranted.

"The rest of the world is too weak to absorb a large dollar
correction," he said.

"If the dollar falls by 30 percent, the US' partner currencies
should rise by 30. In response to the prediction that the dollar
must crash, I ask 'against whom?' Which economy in the
world can, now or in the next year or so, withstand a 30
percent appreciation in their currency?

"If the euro area and Japan were stronger than they are now,
these levels might be possible. But we have still not yet fully
emerged from a synchronized global recession ... Unless
Japan and Euroland simultaneously make a huge policy
mistake of allowing this to happen, they will intervene
massively to prevent the dollars from weakening so much
now, in my view."

End Quote

First of all, the source, Morgan Stanley, is not to be trusted.

Then…

This assumes that the US cannot be taken out of the loop. I wonder whether that is true. Perhaps the US can be edged out of the world trade circle very carefully. Our contribution to the world has become primarily as a facilitator for flows of currencies. The Japanese are only one example. We purchase their goods with dollars, then they purchase dollars with yen. Slowly, but surely, we have eaten up all our seed corn.

I doubt that devaluing the dollar—supposedly in our best interest to prop up our own manufacturing—can have that effect. What can we manufacture cheaper and better than the Chinese? How far would our currency have to drop to make us competitive—even if the Chinese would allow their currency to float—which is unlikely. Does anyone REALLY THINK this would work?

BTW, reading the articles describing the understanding arising out of Bush Sr. meeting with Chinese, it seemed to me that the Chinese were totally in control. I didn’t see anything that Bush got out of them. They reiterated what they expected of the US with regard to the “One China” policy. Anybody else get the same read on this?
Oh, well. Just a few questions…

Take care, All. dotti

[Edit]
A moment of silence to do the math -- HBM, 06:10:29 10/13/03 Mon

Mr. Levy, the forth grade teacher, stood in front of his class and said, "The Jewish people have observed their 5,759th year as a people. Consider that the Chinese, for example, have only observed their 4,692nd year as a people. Now what does this mean you?"

After a moment of silence, a student raised his hand. "Yes, David, "Mr. Levy said. "What does it mean?"

David replied, "It means that the Jewish people had to go without Chinese food for 1,067 years."

[Edit]
dec stops -- volavka, 05:43:54 10/13/03 Mon

sitting @ 365/366.
Massive support 354

Hold today and watch for some news of Muslims announce gold support thru conference.

[Edit]
If you can't beat them ... -- Husbands of the world, 05:02:03 10/13/03 Mon

An Indian group claims 40,000 beaten husbands have joined up to demand new laws to protect them from their wives.

With a guiding slogan of "Husbands of the world unite - we have nothing to lose but our wives", the All India Front Against Atrocities by Wives claims men are the weaker sex and says its 400 branches include police officers and judges.

One wife was arrested recently on charges of hiring men to beat up her husband the day after their wedding before making off with all the wedding gifts and jewellery.

Comment: hmmm, sure tis somethin to do with all dat silva dem Injins ave.

[Edit]
GATA re Reversal of Yen Carry Trade -- gata, 04:34:59 10/13/03 Mon

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Thanks to our friends who confirmed the authenticity of
that Reuters story about the reversal of the yen carry
trade and who provided a link to its posting at Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/home/newswire/2003/10/09/rtr1104042.html

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

[Edit]
GATA -- auspec, 03:42:00 10/13/03 Mon

Should be quite the event:


Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

Three stars of the gold world will attend the GATA
reception at the New Orleans Investment Conference
on Saturday evening, November 1:

-- Frank Veneroso of Allianz Dresdner, a GATA
consultant whose research has disclosed that
central bank gold lending is two to three times
larger than officially acknowledged. In an interview
with CBSMarketWatch Editor Thom Calandra two
weeks ago, Veneroso declared that the central
banks have been trying to suppress the price of
gold as another form of currency intervention.

-- John Embry, president of Sprott Asset
Management in Toronto, who in several public
appearances in Canada has endorsed GATA's
research and conclusions about the gold market
and whose precious metals mutual fund was the
best-performing major fund in the world in 2002.

-- Mark Wellesley-Wood, CEO of Durban
Roodeport Deep, the South African gold-mining
company that is considered the most leveraged
to the gold price and that has a huge investor
base in the United States. Of course Durban
and Wellesley-Wood are long-time supporters
of GATA.

The GATA reception will be held just prior to the
conference's dinner/dance and will be open
only to GATA supporters (which, by definition,
includes subscribers at GATA Chairman Bill
Murphy's Internet site, LeMetropoleCafe.com).
Reservations for the reception will be required,
so if you haven't already made a reservation,
please do so by e-mailing your secretary/treasurer
at GATAComm@aol.com. I'll reply with details
about the exact time and place of the reception.
(A notice to people who already have made
reservations will be sent shortly too.)

Of course GATA's delegation to the conference
will attend the reception as well -- Murphy,
GoldMoney founder and Freemarket Gold and
Money Report Editor James Turk, litigator
Reginald H. Howe, statistician Michael Bolser,
researchers Andrew Hepburn and Robert K.
Landis, and your secretary/treasurer. We're all
looking forward to meeting new and old friends.

In addition to GATA's Murphy, Turk, and
Veneroso, the conference's speakers include
Bill O'Reilly of Fox News, Richard Russell of Dow
Theory Letters, renowned global investor Jim
Rogers, and CBSMarketWatch's Calandra.

The conference emphasizes natural resource
investments and always has been a favorite with
investors interested in gold, silver, and energy.

While the conference hotel, the New Orleans
Sheraton, is now fully booked during the
conference, there's still time to register for the
conference and lodging is available at another
excellent Sheraton hotel just a few blocks away
within easy walking distance.

You can register for the conference and find out
all about it and New Orleans here:

http://www.neworleansconference.com/

The conference has generously offered to make
a contribution to GATA for every GATA supporter
who attends. So when you register online, watch
closely for the section of the registration form that
asks how you heard about the conference. Open the
answer box and click on "GATA."

With the gold and silver markets boiling and
currencies showing great strain, the New Orleans
Investment Conference will present more
profitable investment opportunities than ever, as
well as just being plain old interesting. Of course
uprooting yourself for four or five days isn't easy
and cheap, but at least check out the conference's
Internet site. We can make good progress for the
cause here and hope to see you.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

[Edit]
Periodic Ponzi Update PPU -- $hifty, 23:21:41 10/12/03 Sun

Ponzi Chart

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU

Nasdaq 1,915.31 + Dow 9,674.68 = 11,589.99 divide by 2 = 5,794.995 Ponzi

Up 68.555 from last week.

Thanks for the link RossL!

Now where did that fat lady wander off to?

Go GATA!

Go GOLD!

Go Comets!

$hifty



[Edit]
Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 21:48:54 10/12/03 Sun











US$/POG: from www.kitco.com US$/POS: from www.kitco.com EURO/POG: from www.kitco.com [Most Recent USD from www.kitco.com]










LbS/POG: from www.kitco.com London Fix: from www.kitco.com LbS/POS: from www.kitco.com


[Edit]
Who do you mean? -- Aldebaran, 21:14:01 10/12/03 Sun

ATR inside the tower? Robert? Who and why?

[Edit]
Newbie... -- CIA, 20:00:14 10/12/03 Sun

...is not what he seems ATR...comes from within the Tower.

[Edit]
some things never change -- invisible man, 19:48:17 10/12/03 Sun

Many posts MIA ATR !

--------- ---

[Edit]
GATA -- gata, 18:05:51 10/12/03 Sun

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

What purports to be a Reuters story from London last
Thursday, appended here, forwarded by a GATA supporter
in Europe, does not seem to be available at the Reuters
Internet site, though many other stories by the author of
this story are available there. So either your
secretary/treasurer has botched his use of the Reuters
search mechanism, Reuters inadvertently omitted posting
the story at its Internet site, the story is a very good
forgery, or Reuters has removed the story from its Internet
site because of the effect it could have on the currency
markets.

GATA forwards this story to you in suspicion about the
latter possibility and in the belief that the situation
the story describes bears close watching.

GATA will be grateful to receive any information on this
issue at our e-mail address: GATAComm@aol.com.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

* * *

Analysis: Yen carry trade unwinding risks 1998-style dollar fall

By Natsuko Waki

LONDON, Oct. 9 (Reuters) -- A potential investor exodus
from option-related yen carry trades is threatening to trigger
a 1998-style precipitous drop in the dollar with currency
options prices already showing unprecedented demand
for yen upside.

In carry trades, investors borrow yen at low cost to buy
higher-yielding assets abroad. A lot of traditional yen carry
trades have already been closed out as U.S.-Japan interest
rate differentials narrowed and the trades became less
profitable.

But the dollar's five-yen decline since a G7 call for more
flexible exchange rates on September 20 is triggering
hedging on longer-dated option-related yen carry trades
which were profitable as long as the dollar went up or
stayed in a range.

These leveraged trades use long-dated options beyond
20 years. Because these long-term options markets are
highly illiquid, signs of panic are already emerging in
options prices and hedging the positions could ultimately
result in selling dollars in the spot market.

"As spot dollar/yen falls, the market is looking for protection
in long-dated options and is willing to pay a very high price.
But the long-dated market is not liquid. So once dollar/yen
starts to fall, people are having to hedge in a thin and
panicked market," said Giovanni Pillitteri, vice president on
the options trading desk at Deutsche Bank.

"They will move down the line (from long-end to short-end)
and ultimately they will be forced to sell dollar/yen to hedge."

Major unwinding of traditional yen carry positions in the
aftermath of the 1998 Russian default and the collapse of
hedge fund Long Term Capital Management shaved a quarter
off the dollar's value in just four months.

Risk reversals, a widely used indicator in the options market
which gauges investor sentiment towards a specific currency,
are showing a record skew toward the yen's upside, beyond
levels seen in the 1998 crisis.

Only a fortnight ago, one-year risk reversals hit an all-time
high above 3 percent favouring yen calls, which give the right
to buy yen, and have stayed near that level ever since.

"It's such a one-way market," an options dealer at a
London-based bank said.

The longer-dated options market is still very illiquid and
Pillitteri said it was only over the last year that a two-way
market in 10-year options has developed.

Eric Ohayon, European head of FX structuring at Bank of
America, said: "The market remains exposed to the (dollar)
downside ... but it is likely to be expressed through the
options market rather than the spot given the threat of
potential intervention."

But "once barriers are broken, you suddenly find yourself
having to sell spot to cover those positions, and it becomes
a self-fulfilling prophecy," he said.

Japanese authorities have intervened heavily this year to
keep the yen from gaining on the dollar but since the G7
statement they appear to have become less aggressive.

By August 1998, demand for lucrative yen carry trades had
helped propel the dollar to a peak of 147.63 yen from a
record low three years earlier. The total amount of yen
borrowed by speculators was estimated in mid-1998 to have
reached 15 trillion ($137.5 billion).

The dollar then lost nearly 33 yen, a quarter of its value, in
just four months as extreme risk aversion resulting from the
crisis triggered major unwinding of those trades. Dealers
say longer-dated structured notes, such as Power Reverse
Dual Currency bonds (PRDC), gained popularity in the 1990s
as Japanese investors sought higher-yielding carry trades
because domestic interest rates were near zero.

PRDCs, whose average maturity is around 27 years, link
the coupon to FX rates. The first coupon is fixed and
subsequent coupons are then proportional to the dollar/yen
rate.

The coupon becomes larger if dollar/yen is higher on the
coupon date.Conversely, the coupon becomes smaller if the
dollar/yen is lower on the coupon date. Deutsche estimates
the market size of PRDCs is four to five trillion yen.

"Investors are betting dollar/yen will go up or at least not go
down. If dollar/yen falls, swap houses (with which the issuers
with PRDCs hedge their cash flow) will need to hedge their
exposures -- that is, buying back long-end volatilities,"
Pillitteri said.

"It could reach a point where there is no supply anywhere in
the options market to offset the demand for hedging.
Ultimately, they will have to sell dollar/yen in the spot
market."

[Edit]
Midasize -- auspec, 17:58:39 10/12/03 Sun

6:13p ET Sunday, October 12, 2003

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

GATA Chairman Bill Murphy's "Midas" commentary from
Friday, October 10, at LeMetropoleCafe.com has been
posted in the clear at GoldSeek.com:

http://news.goldseek.com/LemetropoleCafe/1065995109.php

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

[Edit]
Ag_Eagle -- auspec, 17:18:26 10/12/03 Sun

The guy that wrote the cia article is a real "trip" for sure.............this should be fun.

[Edit]
GATA -- gata, 16:48:20 10/12/03 Sun

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?
tmpl=story&cid=1518&ncid=1518&e=3&u=/afp/20031008/bs_afp/us_economy_fo
rex_031008201123

WASHINGTON (Agence France-Presse) -- The US
administration has embarked on a risky strategy to
bring down the value of the dollar as part of an
effort to keep a fragile economic recovery on track.

Analysts say the US effort could alleviate some
economic woes, but that if not handled correctly
could scare off foreign investors needed to finance
the country's massive trade and investment deficits.

The greenback, which has been on a downward trend
for months, accelerated its move after last month's
Group of Seven meeting in which the world's economic
powers called for more exchange rate flexibility -- an
effort widely seen as calling for a weaker dollar.

"There is little doubt that there is a strong consensus
in the markets that US policymakers have decided to
push the dollar lower as a policy lever to complement
stimulative monetary and fiscal policies adopted during
2003," said Citibank chief currency strategist Robert
Sinche.

A weaker dollar, long sought by US industry, would
make US products more competitive and boost profits
for US multinationals.

It would also ease worries about deflation by making
imports more expensive, and over time could curb the
massive US trade deficit that has allowed Asian nations
to build up massive dollar reserves.

The US current account deficit, the broadest measure
of trade and investment, hit 503.4 billion dollars last year
and is still growing.

"The problem with this imbalance is that the US is
borrowing from the rest of the world, largely from Asia, to
finance the current account deficit," according to an
analysis by Wachovia Securities.

"For now, foreigners seem content to accumulate more US
assets. However, this willingness clearly has its limits, and
it will begin to be tested if the net indebtedness of the US
continues to rise."

But a weaker dollar has long been fought by US trading
partners like Japan, which has been in a constant battle to
keep the yen from rising to help its own exports.

And while the lower dollar could be a boost for the US
economy, it could mean the opposite for sluggish
economies elsewhere.

"Excess US dollar weakness (at this point) is a bad thing
for everyone if it threatens the broadening out of economic
recovery from the leader (the US) to the laggards (Europe
and Asia)," said Smith Barney analyst Matthew Merritt.

A big risk for the US strategy is that the falling dollar could
become self-feeding, prompting more investors to move
away from dollar-denominated assets like stocks and
bonds, fueling a crash in the dollar and financial markets.

The US administration has been sending the message --
reiterated Wednesday by the White House -- that its
"strong dollar" policy remains unchanged.

But some analysts see this as a way of making the
dollar's decline more gradual, or orderly.

The dollar hit a fresh three-year low against the yen this
week, falling below the symbolic level of 110 yen, and the
euro has begun creeping back towards its all-time high of
1.1933 hit earlier this year.

But Morgan Stanley analyst Stephen Jen says fears of a
dollar collapse are unwarranted.

"The rest of the world is too weak to absorb a large dollar
correction," he said.

"If the dollar falls by 30 percent, the US' partner currencies
should rise by 30. In response to the prediction that the dollar
must crash, I ask 'against whom?' Which economy in the
world can, now or in the next year or so, withstand a 30
percent appreciation in their currency?

"If the euro area and Japan were stronger than they are now,
these levels might be possible. But we have still not yet fully
emerged from a synchronized global recession ... Unless
Japan and Euroland simultaneously make a huge policy
mistake of allowing this to happen, they will intervene
massively to prevent the dollars from weakening so much
now, in my view."

[Edit]
Flinter,HBM, and ALL interested in Digital Gold Currency. -- beesting, 10:57:49 10/12/03 Sun

Since Gands thread (DGC's) on forum 2 seems to be getting sabotaged [?] I am posting this very up to date comparison
of the different alternate currency systems now available:

Click Here To Enter Express Lane To Site

.......beesting.

[Edit]
um -- number six, 08:16:41 10/12/03 Sun

I meant Bob Novak not Billy Krystal, d'oh.

Here's the smoking gun link for people who think 911 was fishy - it's all about wtc7, the third skyscraper that collapsed on 911.

wtc7.net

[Edit]
turk says -- qwerty, 06:45:00 10/12/03 Sun

break out in 2 months says turk

turk told us it would be back in february

my guesses would be ...

best case - within 2-3 months

moderate risk bet - within 5-6 moths

worst case - within 11-12 months

i think a 60 point rise in gold over a year is staying within the bounds of a very conservative especially at these levels ...

[Edit]
amazing article ag_Eagle -- number six, 23:08:50 10/11/03 Sat

On that topic of the outed cia agent, I kinda woulda thought that the journalist who published the outing - Billy Kristol or whatever, - would stand to be in just as much trouble as would Rove or whoever. And maybe his newspaper be in trouble too??? Maybe they're too well connected, or part of an op. Maybe the cia leaked the name via media, in order to have something to pin on the admin, to be able to go after them. Just like the admin invented their dirt on Hussein; (and according to some, just like they scripted 911.)

It's fun to guess about.

[Edit]
Cinematic Equities Theatre- Featuring global stars and has-beens performing an authentic "Roaring Twenties" Replay of "Bullcake Waltz"! -- Goldustorm, 22:46:19 10/11/03 Sat

Aside from the many reasons people have for seeing the global equities markets as in a bear market correction, there are other worries. One is the various derivative pyramids of debt, bonds, mortgages, fiat and other layered risk, speculation and opaque hideaways. Like the equities markets, they're only being held in place by the suspension of disbelief that occurs in the human psyche like a suspended animation, still footage snapshot of the Warner Bros. cartoon classic Wily E. Coyote- supercharged by injections of stimulatory liquidity and desire and a steady desert diet of economic hyberbole and rhetorical mirage. Like many others subsisting on a derivative diet, he won't be aware that he's suspended above the mesa or beneath the avalanche until he hears the Roadrunner's "Beep, Beep".
BEEP, BEEP...

[Edit]
jomama -- qwerty, 16:39:20 10/11/03 Sat




i heard someone say that the real motive behind all these surveillance laws is the government wants to know where all people's asset's are and that this was one of the nazi's primary motivations ...

the patriot act gives tremendous powers to the government to take anyone's assets on a whim with no evidence or reason

the forfeiture law on drugs should have been an alarm bell but only a few really cared

those 96% voting ... holy cripes

their jobs and assets and health will be under threat unless they comply with the agenda of the state and that's assuming they have any left and haven't been impoverished by the economic downsizing

yes, best to wait it out someplace else until the volcano has vented most of it's energy

===
U got it right and of all the places I've been on the
planet, Mexico is numero uno.
===

do you speak spanish

where in mexico do you think are the best locations

what do you see as the advantages / disadvantages

isn't mexico under the north american military command structure

i only took visits to border areas a couple times but it seemed very dangerous or at least i sensed that


i never cared to do much traveling outside but the political climate in the US has turned very dark and it has motivated me ... the cultural and language transition i can live with when one considers the economic and political risk ...

[Edit]
''Don’t dick with the Central Intelligence Agency'' -- Ag_Eagle, 14:55:19 10/11/03 Sat

Snip:
"...it seems to me that an agency willing to overthrow the government of Guatemala in the name of banana imports ought to have no problem saying “screw you right back” to a bunch of venal, inbred frat boys blundering their way through their last terms in public office. You don’t play dirty tricks on the folks who invented them. Expect events in the next few months to get very interesting as political revelations start to occur at the most embarrassing moments, policy notions don’t get properly cooked intelligence to back them up, and personal secrets float into public view for no apparent reason, drifting down the cloaca publicum to the delight of scandal-mongers everywhere. The CIA has officially been dicked with. They might even start parting people’s brains again, although probably not the president’s. They don’t make spatulas that small..."

CIA FU - By Ben Tripp

[Edit]
arnold's bold move -- qwerty, 13:27:20 10/11/03 Sat

===

One of Schwarzenegger's boldest moves, however, will be to enter into quick settlements with about a dozen energy companies accused of manipulating the state's electricity market during the height of the state's energy crisis two years ago, aides to Schwarzenegger said Wednesday.

For three years, California has been engaged in a costly legal battle against dozens of energy companies it said ripped off the state by purposely withholding much-needed electricity from consumers, creating an artificial shortage while boosting the companies' profits.

Federal regulators ordered electricity refunds for California totalling about $3.3 billion, but Davis said the state deserves at least $9 billion and "not a penny less."

===

quick settlement

bold move

wallstreet also made bold moves on the small investor to the tune of 100 billion and then another 100 billion on nasdaq or something

with enough bold moves fronted by the politicians, we should be peasants in the not too distant future

there will be yuppie software peasants too

[Edit]
qwerty -- jomama, 12:43:45 10/11/03 Sat

"i look at america as just a political yellowstone volcano ... just like guessing when the stock market will plummet ... from my risk perspective, it is better to just stay away from the volcano / market ... a lot of beautiful places to reside on this planet without the political baggage"

U got it right and of all the places I've been on the
planet, Mexico is numero uno.

The vast majority here look at politics and politicians and all gummint for what they are:

One Giant Scam

When The Giant falls, best not be underneath.

[Edit]
qwerty -- number six, 12:41:03 10/11/03 Sat

I'm not sure, but I don't think it uses up much just yet. But it appears to have global potential for energy-efficient lighting, so it could get rolled-out everywhere. And thus maybe use up a lot of gold. I don't know how much is a lot, though.

[Edit]
led -- qwerty, 12:35:49 10/11/03 Sat

>Tiny gold contacts are applied to each chip site

how many tons does this use up

[Edit]
say bye bye to most software and services -- qwerty, 12:23:42 10/11/03 Sat

===
Acknowledging that it was National Depression Day, Intel co-founder Andy Grove warned that US software and services would go the same way of the US steel industry. "It would be a miracle if it didn't happen in the software and services industry,'' he said.
===

remaining local software jobs will have wages that will face drastic cuts

without the high wages of professional and white collar workers, the housing prices will need to come down a lot ... i think minimum downside is 30% without income level loss and factoring in the income loss, i think it could go past 50% or even 60% ... this does not take into account inflation ... maybe templeton's 90% figure could conceivably be reached ... the only way to bail everyon out is with high inflation

[Edit]
essential new technology that will consume gold -- number six, 11:57:18 10/11/03 Sat

http://www.lutw.org/LEDtechnowhat.html

leds

[Edit]
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