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Why Bush & Company Are Not Worried About Adding More Debt. -- beesting, 19:18:17 09/15/03 Mon

Answer to above statement:
As the USA slowly gets deeper in debt and as productive type jobs are slowly being lost, causing a loss on taxes paid into "The General Fund" the lender of last resort will eventually become the IMF/World bank.......Especially if the Euro slowly replaces the dollar in international trade.

Look for the above future scenario to happen......Unless Ron Paul gets elected President!

.......beesting.

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Let's cut thru the bull shit -- volavka, 16:36:23 09/15/03 Mon

Investing 101:

You must evaluate the mkt on a daily basis.
If certain levels of support or resistance are taken out it effects the math of the next daily range.

The open is more important than the close.

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@Netking -- Goldustorm, 16:00:05 09/15/03 Mon

Aren't China and Russia directly threatened by an invasion of Iran? And how much longer can that type of spending increase be sustained? But maybe an invasion of Iran or Saudi Oilabia will be the straw that breaks the dollar's back! After the bombing of Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq(for years), I wouldn't be surprised to see Iran targeted somehow.
But the UN has made a deadline which means they can bring other nations in to help pay AND fight if Iran won't back down?

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Countdown Iran -- Netking, 11:57:08 09/15/03 Mon

[US Army official poster]

Countdown Iran : T- 138 days?

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Having just received a death threat -- PeterA, 22:05:51 09/14/03 Sun

From some contractor supply telemarketer that has been sporadically harrasing us for ten years, I found some cheer in today's WND item below:

@ Rex: I assume if an article has a button to "email to a friend" it can also be posted as they wish it to be passed on.

Ask not what telemarketers can do to you

DAVE BARRY

There's just over a year to go before the 2004 presidential election, and everybody in the nation is extremely excited. Except of course the public. The public, shrewdly, pays no attention to presidential politics until all of the peripheral dorks have been weeded out, and it's finally time to make a selection between the two main dorks left over.

So what does the public care about right now? Telemarketers. The public hates them. It hates them even more than it hates France, low-flow toilets or ''customer service.''

We know this because recently the Federal Trade Commission, implementing the most popular federal concept since the Elvis stamp, created the National Do Not Call Registry. The way it works is, if you are a member of that select group of people (defined as ''people with phones'') who do not wish to receive unsolicited calls from telemarketers, you can go to www.donotcall.gov and register your phone number. Starting Oct. 1, any telemarketer who calls you will be locked in a tiny room with a large, insatiable man who will force the telemarketer, repeatedly, at all hours of the day and night, to change his long-distance provider.

No, sorry, that was the original concept. But the law is pretty strict: For each call to a registered number, telemarketers face an $11,000 fine. This program is a huge hit with the public. Already 30 million American households have registered; this figure would be even higher if it included all the Florida residents who tried to register but accidentally voted for Patrick Buchanan instead.

And how has the telemarketing industry responded to this tidal wave of public hostility? It has issued this statement: ''Gosh, if these people really don't want us to call them, then there's no point in our calling them! We'd only be making them hate us more, and that's just plain stupid! We'll try to come up with a less offensive way to do business.''

No, wait, that's what the telemarketers would say in Bizarro World, where everything is backward, and Superman is bad, and telemarketers contain human DNA. Here on Earth, the telemarketers are claiming they have a constitutional right to call people who do not want to be called. They base this claim on Article VX, Section iii, row 5, seat 2, of the U.S. Constitution, which states: ''If anybody ever invents the telephone, Congress shall pass no law prohibiting salespeople from using it to interrupt dinner.''

Leading the charge for the telemarketing industry is the American Teleservices Association (suggested motto: 'Some Day, We Will Get a Dictionary and Look Up 'Services' ''). This group argues that, if its members are prohibited from calling people who do not want to be called, then two million telemarketers will lose their jobs. Of course, you could use pretty much the same reasoning to argue that laws against mugging cause unemployment among muggers. But that would be unfair. Muggers rarely intrude into your home.

So what's the answer? Is there a constitutional way that we telephone customers can have our peace, without inconveniencing the people whose livelihoods depend on keeping their legal right to inconvenience us? Maybe we could pay the telemarketing industry not to call us, kind of like paying ''protection money'' to organized crime. Or maybe we could actually hire organized crime to explain our position to telemarketing-industry executives, who would then be given a fair opportunity to respond, while the cement was hardening.

I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm sure you have a better idea for how we can resolve our differences with the telemarketing industry. If you do, call me. No, wait, I have a better idea: Call the American Teleservices Association, toll-free, at 1-877-779-3974, and tell them what you think. I'm sure they'd love to hear your constitutionally protected views! Be sure to wipe your mouthpiece afterward.

In closing, here's an:

IMPORTANT REMINDER -- Mark your calendar with a big ''X'' on Sept. 19, which is the second annual National Talk Like A Pirate Day. This is the day when everybody is supposed to talk like a pirate for very solid reasons (see www.talklikeapirate.com).

Last year, the first National Talk Like a Pirate Day was a huge success, as measured by the number of messages on my answering machine consisting entirely of people going ''Arrrrr.'' So if you're feeling depressed -- if you think the world is in terrible shape, and one person like yourself can't make a difference -- remember this: You're right. So you might as well talk like a pirate. It's easy! For example, when you answer the phone, instead of ''Hello,'' you say ''Ahoy!''

Then you hang up. Scurvy telemarrrrrketers!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read more from Dave Barry

© 2003 The Miami Herald and wire service sources.

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Voy.Com's Latest Info Re: Forum Access Problems -- Rex, 21:40:19 09/14/03 Sun

Click this link, and read it if interested.
They attribute the problem to network overload
caused by the "sobig" VIRUS, which is rampant yet.

[Explanation of recent network slowdown]

..Rx

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Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 21:30:52 09/14/03 Sun

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Periodic Ponzi Update PPU -- $hifty, 20:18:34 09/14/03 Sun

Ponzi Chart

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU

Nasdaq 1,855.03 + Dow 9,471.55 = 11,326.29 divide by 2 = 5,663.29 Ponzi

Down 17.50 from last week!

Thanks for the link RossL!

Hope things are drying out !

Go GATA!

Go GOLD!

Go Golden Comet's!

$hifty

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Bubba Gump -- volavka, 18:09:53 09/14/03 Sun

Run forest, passing turks & caicos.
The size of this storm will creat more damage and much more inflation.

Gold has built alot of stops down @ 370 so the jelly fish will wash the weak out.

scum floats.

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Whut's ta come @ OmarD & J.H. Kunstler -- jomama, 14:03:50 09/14/03 Sun

"We've sunk so much of our national wealth
into a particular way of doing things that we're
psychologically compelled to defend it even
if it drives us crazy and kills us."

The "crazy" part is easily seen growing every day
in Amurika.

The "kill" part will probably be the method of
Americanaltionalizing all the oil in the world.

Like the ol' rock and the hard place, but I expect
something to that effect or at least a "valiant"
effort by The Boyz in Charge.

Someone once said something to the effect that:
"He who controls all the world's oil, controls a
world running on empty."

But a world running on oil is just a *symptom* of
a much bigger problem:

Centralization...of everything.

'twill be a rapidly disappearing way of doing things as
the Shit Hits The Fan.

Better to find unorthodox ways of looking at and doing
things.

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The bogus war on terrorism and pretexts to secure global domination -- Ag_Eagle, 11:45:28 09/14/03 Sun

Michael Meacher, a former British environment minister on 9/11 & the war on terrorism. Meacher, who served as a minister for six years until three months ago, today goes further than any other mainstream British politician in blaming the Iraq war on a US desire for domination of the Gulf and the world. Interesting reading

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/090803_meecher.html

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GULF WAR II SYNDROME? -- Ag_Eagle, 11:29:24 09/14/03 Sun

But wait, there's more: Special Forces veteran and brilliant writer Stan Goff describes another one of the lies and victimization of US troops by an insane government that is bent on eating its own. Only someone who is without a conscience could take heart from the fact that as many as 40% of the US troops now serving in Iraq may be condemned to death or permanent disability - without benefits or honor.

Read now:
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/091003_gw2_syndrome.html

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Iraquagmire -- auspec, 10:37:30 09/14/03 Sun

Inadequate troops, inadequate money, inadequate foresight............all grinding down in the sands of Iraqnam. The UN is being begged to take this mess off our hands but on OUR TERMS....hahaha. No way.

Here's the ultimate drawdown. The US military has been used to take out a global rogue.........who better to perform the task? The US will continue to eat sand and crow up towards next year's prime election season. Ultimately the UN will play a much larger role in "peacekeeping", but ONLY w the spoils of war being 'equitably' distributed amongst those not tied to the US fascelitists {look it up if you doubt me}. Current US policy is totally untenable..........to the point of being hallucinogenic, to borrow a word from Cap'n Bill of Privateer.

The Bush 1 & 2 Legacy........snatching defeat from the jaws of victory unlike no two father son duos in history. Middle East War "victories" don't leave a lasting impression on US populaces. Without a new "crisis" developing to galvanize US knee jerk {not a reference to the Bush team arrogancy {this time}} patriotic support for our {mis} leaders............he's toast. If he wins he'll wish he didn't.

Richebacher says the US monetary system only has 12 to 18 months left before it comes totally unglued. I'm buying Band-Aide stock options in the meantime.

By the way, unlike our residing Pres., I do have a Plan B.

What made so many of us think Gore was the delusional one in 2000? Ed Koch says he sees tremendous leadership from W.........wonder what he's been granted? CFR office? He probably likes the way Bobby Cox manages the Braves come playoff time also.

Questioner.......yep, ER has been down some........seems some authorities didn't like our lil contest. They'll be contacting YOU pretty soon.

Goofin along,

mini

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Forum -- Questioner, 07:25:58 09/14/03 Sun

Has the forum been down on and off for the last week or so?

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Britain and US isolated as Iraq angrily buries its dead -- Netking, 02:36:24 09/14/03 Sun

Bitter divisions re-emerged yesterday among the world's five most powerful countries about how soon America is prepared to return power to the Iraqi people.

The US slapped down as unacceptable a French plan to end its occupation within a month, although the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, talked down the differences after the Geneva meeting of the UN's big five.

The failure to reach agreement on a new Security Council resolution that would pave the way for tens of thousands of international troops to go to Iraq under a UN flag, came as the situation on the ground grew yet more perilous...

...The failure of the occupying forces to bring law and order to the country and the ability of the Iraqi resistance to strike with near-impunity are also galvanising international opinion against America and Britain.

If a new resolution is not agreed during further talks in New York this week, George Bush and Tony Blair can expect a month of public humiliation over the Iraq crisis.

Washington and London had hoped that the meeting of the veto-wielding members of the council would begin to draw the UN into the task of reconstructing Iraq. Instead, it produced a virtual replay of the pre-war rift...

...Mr Bush, however, is unabashed by either criticism from abroad or his tumbling popularity at home. Far from stilling disquiet, his televised address last Sunday saw his approval rates drop from 59 per cent beforehand to 52 per cent afterwards, according to a CNN-Gallup poll.

Six out of 10 Americans believe the administration does not have a coherent plan for Iraq..."

[Snippets copied under 'fair use' from the Independent]

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NIce overview at GE from Bill Bonner of The Daily Reckoning -- Goldustorm, 21:37:15 09/13/03 Sat

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_03/bonner091503.html
The Daily Reckoning PRESENTS:
Investors are up and running...but whither do they go?
Bill Bonner weighs in with his judgment, below.
FLIGHT TO IMBECILITY
Bill Bonner- (Excerpts posted with permission under U.S. Fair Use Laws):
"Just because every fiber of society and government wants bond and housing price inflation to continue without consequence does not mean that this will happen."
- Michael J. Burry
"And there is the spectacle of people mortgaging their houses for more than they are worth; what do we make of that? Who is the greater fool...the borrower, or the lender? It is hard to say; both seem to be headed towards a disaster. Theoretically, the lender is the expert; the borrower is the rube. But, in their flight to mediocrity, mortgage lenders have reached further and further for yield - going after more and more marginal credit risks. Haven't they created a situation in which both sides could be losers?
The lender stands to lose from a boost in inflation rates. Inflation would collapse the value of a fixed-rate mortgage.
But inflation is no sure thing. The homeowner stands to lose, too. Jobs are disappearing. Pay levels are stagnating. Deflation would make it harder for him to make his mortgage payments. And if his house fell in value, maybe he wouldn't want to. An adjustable rate mechanism would protect the lender from inflation...but then again, not if the borrower can't pay. In a real crisis, over-stretched homeowners couldn't continue servicing their mortgages. Already going bankrupt at the highest rates in recent history, millions more could go down if a genuine recession were to begin. Most likely, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and other mortgage lenders would soon be insolvent, too."

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U.S. Senate Subcommittee Holds Hearing on Silver-Based Biocides as an Alternative Treatment for Wood Preservation -- Netking, 21:19:14 09/13/03 Sat

Washington, D.C. - September 12, 2003:
http://www.silverinstitute.org/news/pr12sep03.html

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Creditworthiness: a high privilage not to be taken for granted, a sacred trust with one's fellows, an honorable contract -- Goldus, 20:23:41 09/13/03 Sat

$87 BILLION
WHY THE COMMOTION?
By: Ed Henry
Ever since President Bush's Sunday night speech where he said: "I will ask Congress for $87 billion to carry out the war on terrorism" the media and news people have been abuzz with questions. Suddenly, there is all sorts of concern over where the money will go, how much is needed for this and that, why it's so much, what will Congress do, will more be needed, and how are we going to pay for all of this?
It's wonderful that the so-called watchdogs are finally taking an interest in government accounts, but why now? The national debt has already gone up $584 billion as of September 5th and there's more than three weeks left in the fiscal year. No one seems too concerned about that, and it's the real deficit because it includes what the government has borrowed/stolen from entitlements like Social Security.

In the last eleven months, did President Bush ask Congress for permission to borrow $426 billion from investors? Why would it suddenly be necessary to do so now?
Is Congress sitting on a batch of money? Is Bush asking for $87 billion of this stash? If so, then why are we running deficits? A deficit is when the government spends more money than it has in tax receipts, its only source of revenue besides borrowing.
The news has it that Congress will approve the $87 billion anyway, but what difference does their approval make? Congress has already proven itself irrelevant on most major issues like war and foreign policy.
Something is very screwy here. All I can do is hypothesize about why there is this sudden interest in $87 billion more to fight terrorism. Has anyone bothered to put together what the war on terrorism has already cost us?
Maybe, after it's so obvious that Bush and his henchmen lied to us about "weapons of mass destruction" day after day for months on end that people simply don't trust him any more. With his approval rating plummeting like an elevator with its wires cut, maybe people are starting to question everything he says. It could be that simplistic.
Perhaps the hubbub about $87 billion more is a deliberate prelude to giving in to the democrats and rescinding the Bush income tax cuts. Failing to get financial help from nations that were opposed to our invasion in the first place, left with our "go it alone" arrogance and having opened up a guerilla battlefield for everyone that hates us, and needing to restore the infrastructure we so thoroughly destroyed in Iraq would certainly make taking back the benefits of a tax cut seem reasonable, would it not? After all, you don't want them coming over here "on our streets" now do you?
If the income tax cuts and restructuring brackets were a "stimulus to the economy," what happens to our hard pressed nation when they are taken away?
No doubt, Bush would like to put the $87 billion on the backs of future generations by borrowing more money, but there are problems there too. The bond market is in trouble that has been described as a "perfect storm" with investors starting to reject treasuries as the safest place for their money and the big mortgage houses like Fannie Mae being overextended in derivatives. The Bush administration is finding it more and more difficult to borrow as much money as they would like.
Just the other day, Wednesday, September 10th, the Treasury put $33 billion worth of 5-year notes on the auction block and only $11.8 billion were sold to investors.
Hey, how long did the borrowholics think this constitutionally provided "emergency" credit card would be unrestricted?
Maybe Bush is asking Congress to include the $87 billion in the 2004 budget where he is already planning a $485 billion deficit. Would this then go in as an increase to the Defense budget, jumping it to almost $500 billion? He would definitely need the approval of Congress to do that.
Worse yet, he could be asking Congress to take this $87 billion out of discretionary spending that has already been decimated this year. Next year, it would mean putting even more of a burden on States and local governments that are already strapped by shortfalls due to his refusal to deliver on social programs like education, health care, housing, and so forth, not to mention what it does to the public.
There are much more heinous possibilities.
Every time the Bush administration and the New World Order find themselves in trouble we are hit with a calamity from left field. And the Bush administration is definitely in trouble today.
The first time it happened was September 11, 2001, and that disaster could hardly have come at a better time for the U.S. government. After years of ripping-off American worker's retirement and health care money, the Social Security "Pay-It-Again Sam" scam was coming unraveled.
You might want to review the archives of some of the news from July, August, and the first ten days of September immediately preceding that attack. And it wasn't the trillions of dollars involved that threatened the Beltways Bandits—it was the potential loss of power.
If the New World Order losses its pawns in elected office, it cannot carry out its plans for an American empire.
The second calamity came in the form of private sector corporations found distorting their profit picture in order to entice investors into buying their stock. Hiding debt in dummy subsidiaries, double bookkeeping, and other accounting tricks were uncovered as the reason millions of investors losing millions of dollars.
When a few economists and commentators began drawing comparisons between Enron, WorldCom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, and other private sector cheaters and the federal government's own accounting tricks, trust funds, and fraud—we were suddenly faced with the need to "Attack Iraq." Weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein replaced the search for Osama bin Laden whom we falsely accused of working together.
What's next?
Now that we've squandered the world sympathy we had after 9/11 by conducting an invasion that was absolutely unnecessary and illegal, now that we've alienated "old Europe" the United Nations and the Security Council, now that we are caught in a quagmire of our own making, and now that we are committed to rebuilding the Iraqi and the Afghan infrastructures we so systematically destroyed, what can you expect next?
Add in the "Roadmap to Peace" between Israel and Palestine that has floundered on potholes, barricades, road blocks, and detours, plus our stand against North Korea while we ourselves plan to resume nuclear testing, put nukes in space, and the development of "field nukes" and you've got an American foreign policy that can fairly be described as an arrogant disaster that's driving us into bankruptcy.
It's not pleasant, in fact it's nauseating to imply that our own representative government may have had a hand in 9/11, but before writing the idea off as nonsense you might want to review commentaries like "September 11th And The Bush Administration, compelling evidence for complicity" and Dr. Olmstead's "Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77" for starters.
You might also want to review the "Not In Our Name" declaration by people who, before the invasion of Iraq, predicted almost exactly what's happening today.
"Published originally at EtherZone.com : republication allowed with this notice and hyperlink intact."
Ed Henry is the founder of TUFF, the Taxpayers Union, and a regular columnist for Ether Zone.
Ed Henry can be reached at ctzcrank@mindspring.com
http://www.etherzone.com/2003/henr091203.shtml

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"American Dream" - just that, a "Dream" -- OmarD, 20:09:14 09/13/03 Sat

Two posts in a day...have not done that in a while...must be euphoria from successful early morning "slug" hunt.

7th grade daughter tasked in sciene class to bring in a "Bananna Slug" to class on coming Monday.

Finding one of these PNW "natives" not an easy task as dry as it has been out here this year. But very early morning "deep woods search" resulted in the "bagging" of not just one, but two! Bet BB would be green with envy if he only knew.

----

Anyway...as always a good "Kunstler" Rant below.

http://www.oriononline.org/pages/oo/curmudgeon/index_curmudgeon.html

Big and Blue in the USA
by James Howard Kunstler

(snips)

"...Have any reporters noticed how we actually live here in America? With very few exceptions, our cities are hollowed out ruins. Our towns have committed ritualized suicide in thrall to the WalMart God. Most Americans live in suburban habitats that are isolating, disaggregated, and neurologically punishing, and from which every last human quality unrelated to shopping convenience and personal hygiene has been expunged. We live in places where virtually no activity or service can be accessed without driving a car, and the (usually solo) journey past horrifying vistas of on-ramps and off-ramps offers no chance of a social encounter along the way. Our suburban environments have by definition destroyed the transition between the urban habitat and the rural hinterlands. In other words, we can't walk out of town into the countryside anywhere. Our "homes," as we have taken to calling mere mass-produced vinyl boxes at the prompting of the realtors, exist in settings leached of meaningful public space or connection to civic amenity, with all activity focused inward to the canned entertainments piped into giant receivers -- where the children especially sprawl in masturbatory trances, fondling joysticks and keyboards, engorged on cheez doodles and taco chips..."

We've sunk so much of our national wealth
into a particular way of doing things that we're
psychologically compelled to defend it even
if it drives us crazy and kills us.

"...we are headed into a social and economic maelstrom so severe, as the people on this earth contest over the remaining oil and gas supplies, that everything about contemporary life in America will have to be rearranged, reorganized, reformed, and re-scaled. The infrastructure of suburbia just won't work without utterly dependable supplies of reliably cheap oil and natural gas. No combination of alternative fuels or energy systems will permit us to run what we are currently running, or even close to it. The vaunted hydrogen economy is, at this stage, a complete fantasy, and at the very least there is going to be an interlude of severe disorder and economic discontinuity between the unwinding of the cheap oil age and anything that might plausibly follow it.

We will be driving a lot less than we do now and cars will generally be a diminished presence in our lives. The automakers and the oil companies can lobby all they like, but history has a velocity of its own, and it is taking us into uncharted territory where the GM Yukons and Ford Excursions will be useless. When the suburbs tank, they will go down hard and fast. The loss of hallucinated wealth is going to shock us to our socks, and the fight over the table scraps of the 20th century is liable to entail a lot of political mischief here in the USA.

The physical arrangements for daily living will have to be revised and re-ordered accordingly. We're going to have to return to traditional human habitats: towns, villages, cities, and agricultural landscapes. We will have to walk out of necessity, or at least ride some places with other people. We may be too busy to indulge in the blandishments of television and the other entertainment narcotics we've become addicted to, and even the Internet may be made irrelevant in a world of regular brownouts. We may have to grow more of our food closer to home and do some of the physical work ourselves. As far as I know, there is no such thing as a Cheez Doodle bush. We are going to be living a lot more locally and thrown on our own resources.

We're going to have to do this whether we like it or not, because circumstances will compel us to. There may be a lot of hardship and difficulty, but in the process we are going to get some things back that we threw away in our foolish attempt to become a drive-in civilization. And most of these things we get back will have to do with living on more intimate terms with other people, getting more regular exercise, eating better food, leading more purposeful lives, and rediscovering the public realm that is the dwelling place of our collective spirit. Paradoxically, when that happens fewer of us will need Prozac or the Atkins diet..."

Rgds,

OmarD

"Until government administrators can so identify the interests of government with those of the people and refrain from defrauding the masses through the device of currency depreciation for the sake of remaining in office, the wiser ones will prefer to keep as much of their wealth in the most stable and marketable forms possible - forms which only the precious metals provide." - Elgin Groseclose

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Comedy Central {Banks}! Chronicles -- auspec, 19:37:15 09/13/03 Sat

Out of a MIDAS early this week:

"John B {Brimlow} also sent me the following from one of his sources:"

"Sounds like the central banks are now getting desperate. The reason the market sold off over night was because the Central Bank of Eritrea, Africa sent out faxes to the world advising they wish to sell their entire gold reserves. They contacted non-gold market participants. Market has bounced when the world realized they only have 200,000 oz."

Comment: That barrel still have a bottom? There are probably "boatloads" of silver in Eritrea as well..........snicker.

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Maybe Weiss has His Price..............? -- auspec, 19:30:57 09/13/03 Sat

Victor Flores............long associated w Weiss & HSBC has called in the past for sub $200 POG and claimed to know about boatloads of silver in Dubai or wherever available to suppress the POS.

Me........? I don't trust either of em. The Weiss effect is a band-aide at most.

beesting...........glad it arrived!

I have heard from 3 different credible sources that resource money is sloshing all over New York looking for quality projects. Their money would have gone a lot further a couple years ago, but they're most welcome now anyway. This market will rip and roar once more. Shouldn't be long now.

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One Ounce .999 Silver Beauty Recieved! -- beesting, 09:01:28 09/13/03 Sat

Rusty, REX, ThaiGold, Bounxai, & Raindog, I'm not too good at writing "Thank You" notes, but you're generosity of the SILVER COIN gift is greatly appreciated and will be kept as a family heir-loom......

Now I'm forced to write a legal last "Will & Testament".

Hoping to live a lot longer to enjoy this new Silver "Lucky" piece..........beesting.

P.S. Also experienced E.R. access problems, this last week.

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PS: Link to earlier Post -- OmarD, 07:14:57 09/13/03 Sat

Arundhati Roy
Wednesday April 2, 2003
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,927849,00.html

More "A. Roy"

http://www.geocities.com/jporta_99/aroy.html

Rgds,

OmarD

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Arundhati Roy -- OmarD, 07:09:45 09/13/03 Sat

Assallam allaykum to all...

Have not kept up with the "latest" posting rules, so please forgive if any broken...

Some how missed this dated article...Maybe Netking caught it and posted...if so I missed it. Just found, and feel need to share with those here who "understand" - for those that don't...please ignor.

From

Arundhati Roy
Wednesday April 2, 2003
The Guardian

(snips)

"...On the steel torsos of their missiles, adolescent American soldiers scrawl colourful messages in childish handwriting: For Saddam, from the Fat Boy Posse. A building goes down. A marketplace. A home. A girl who loves a boy. A child who only ever wanted to play with his older brother's marbles..."

"...Operation Iraqi Freedom? I don't think so. It's more like Operation Let's Run a Race, but First Let Me Break Your Knees..."

"...When the Arab TV station al-Jazeera shows civilian casualties it's denounced as "emotive" Arab propaganda aimed at orchestrating hostility towards the "Allies", as though Iraqis are dying only in order to make the "Allies" look bad. Even French television has come in for some stick for similar reasons. But the awed, breathless footage of aircraft carriers, stealth bombers and cruise missiles arcing across the desert sky on American and British TV is described as the "terrible beauty" of war..."

"...Despite the pall of gloom that hangs over us today, I'd like to file a cautious plea for hope: in times of war, one wants one's weakest enemy at the helm of his forces. And President George W Bush is certainly that. Any other even averagely intelligent US president would have probably done the very same things, but would have managed to smoke-up the glass and confuse the opposition. Perhaps even carry the UN with him. Bush's tactless imprudence and his brazen belief that he can run the world with his riot squad, has done the opposite. He has achieved what writers, activists and scholars have striven to achieve for decades. He has exposed the ducts. He has placed on full public view the working parts, the nuts and bolts of the apocalyptic apparatus of the American empire..."

Wa Salaam,
OmarD

Gold Plug: "Those entrapped by the herd instinct are drowned in the deluges of history. But there are always the few who observe, reason, and take precautions, and thus escape the flood. For these few gold has been the asset of last resort." - Antony C. Sutton

PS: Some that we know and love...

http://artisthespoonman.net/cal1.html

[Edit]

little guys/gals -- volavka, 14:32:04 09/12/03 Fri

If holding tide from .15 take 1/2 off now.
cypt hold
amep hold
magr hold long term
frcd hold
fwgo hold
frlk hold
dfct hold
watch almi, tglef,erhc, fasc

Big boys load up on so. africans.

[Edit]

Silver - Butler -- Netking, 12:13:52 09/12/03 Fri

Tightening the Noose By Theodore Butler
http://www.investmentrarities.com/weeklycommentary.html

[Edit]

“The Market” -- Flinter, 09:26:50 09/12/03 Fri

I have to chuckle at the PM traders (& savers & LT investors...for that matter). Take Sinclair for instance. Trying to win the paper game. Brilliant folks, they are. Much smarter than I. The difference is one of perspective, any view from within the matrix will be skewed by that location. Ya gotta be outside, and when you think you are “outside”...think again.

So, I believe, it is all illusion, at this point. Has been for awhile. OK, for every seller in the futures market there must be a buyer. But, what if they are the same entity? Different aliases, perhaps, but the same. And what if they have unlimited FRN’s? So alias A sells to Alias B of the same entity...at a lower than “market price”...what happens to the posted price?

Come to think of it, they don’t even need unlimited FRN’s...do they? It all nets out.

(I'm sure "they" have even better games...being so smart and all.)

Ditto with stocks and mutual funds...etc.

How are you going to “burn those shorts”?

When you control the program, this process can be automated at certain entry points and all will look “normal”. Visualize a computer program with a nice user interface (at the fed perhaps, but also “elsewhere”) that says “gold” at the top and you take the mouse and pull the little elevator down to the price you want.

Easy as pie.

So, you “understand” the matrix and are agoing to use that understanding to beat “them”...eh?

Think again.

Draw all the charts you want, Sinclair. Use that brilliance.

Keeps you out of trouble.

You are in the matrix as much as “joe” is.

It’s unfortunate, that we can understand the matrix and not just ignore it, but it is true. The matrix is not “reality”, but the people it conrols and the resources they manipulate through those people ARE. So, we co-exist with it. But beware your perspective.

In the financial realm,
only physical matters.

Love those “prices”.

Gone to Croatan,
Flinter

[Edit]

magr -- volavka, 06:28:27 09/12/03 Fri

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030912/to272_1.html

[Edit]

China's Money Supply Soars by 21.6% in August -- Netking, 03:16:39 09/12/03 Fri

Again WHY the PRC will not follow the US prompting per changes to the Yuan exchange rate pricing but rather is moving to "maintain consistency".

More here:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200309/12/eng20030912_124176.shtml
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200309/11/eng20030911_124133.shtml
http://www.pbc.gov.cn/english/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Larry - Good comments, over time something will burst if the pressure is allowed to maintain on a firming POS. We have said all along though that when Ag "moves" the path it follows will be anything but one of order yes, it can not and will not be a peaceful ascent!

[Edit]

Silver comments from Gold Eagle bulletin board -- Goldustorm, 20:53:33 09/11/03 Thu

FYI, there is a post on GE at 16:48 today on silver. Poster mentions that a PM trader friend of his believes that John Henry, "legendary Soybean Investor and Trend Trader Extraordinaire- also owner of the Red Sox- is accumulating and behind this move." Silver that is. Texas tea, movie stars?
Seriously, a limit down day on the dollar and some Ag limit up days on the Comex PreMarket could happen at any time, IMO. That is, if the COMEX stays open or resumes trading!

[Edit]

Test Post.. Netscape Again.. -- Rex, 20:38:09 09/11/03 Thu

This is another test-post.
Using Netscape, with Javasript "off"..

FYI: @ALL..

I checked the Voy.com "status (news) page. They are
currently trying to resolve some "slowness problems".

They revised their forum software version in mid-July, and
since that time I've noticed some problems in posting.
You may recall, around August 31, it was interfering with
the cutoff-date of our Contest.

The problem still persists, I think. At the time, I noted
that if "Javascript" option (in your browser) is disabled
("off") it posts okay and avoids the unable-to-post glitch.

The reason (imho) it's so random is that only certain of
their advertisements invoke Javascript. Those are the culprits.

And since their ads "rotate" (different ads at different times),
the problem appears to be random.

My advice (as always) is turn "off" your Javascript for many
reasons. It avoids all Pop-Up ads, is one great benefit; is
more secure for your computer; and avoids glitches from code
errors in the Javascript source.

Javascript is always very problematic, because the "standard"
has been so badly corrupted by various companies that wish
to eliminate it from competition. (Not mentioning any names),
but it's a political issue and is not getting any better.

Javascript is a means to surreptuously "run" mini-programs
in a browser's visit to many websites. Do you need that?
Usually not. It's best to leave it off, unless you need it
for a specific, trusted, site that requires it to perform
some unique function. Such as most online brokers, banks, etc.

End of Test

..Rex

[Edit]

Test Post.. Netscape.. -- Rex, 20:19:09 09/11/03 Thu

This is only a test-post.
Using Netscape. Javascript "on"..

[Edit]

@Net king -- Galearis, 18:43:45 09/11/03 Thu

Hi Murray,

I think you are right about silver behavior, Murray. But given that silver is matching gold moves lately - actually out performing it - almost suggests that the same hungry entity with deep pockets for gold also has a taste for silver. However, I am a little perplexed about the present lease activity; that's a lot of jump in the long (risky for the lender) months. Who but the Chinese would not care enough to do such a thing...

It also serves to remind that silver has been real money historically a LOT longer than gold. We have always seen an echo of this in the daily spot markets.

Yes, I think those dollar up days will have to await the fall of paper.....And I think this will go on a lot longer than we all think.

Regards,

G.

[Edit]

no inflation here -- volavka, 18:08:54 09/11/03 Thu

Beans cotton fedder cattle, I'd say all 3 are essential to someones life.

Crb , you ain't seen nothing yet.

INFLATION BIG TIME COMING. GOLD 650 BEFORE 1-1-04

[Edit]

Ag -- Netking, 17:35:07 09/11/03 Thu

...no, don't perceive a breakout as such, wrong volume and price action & L/Rates for that scenario, still we'll take a further firming of price, can't hurt the Ag stocks either[smile].

[Edit]

Silver breakout? -- Silvertigo, 17:06:59 09/11/03 Thu

@Auspec- Re: Problems posting. Yes, same here, and often I had no access to read. Today no problems.
@HBM- I agree, bond traders must be doing a double take. This silver trader is doing a double take these last few days. Martin Armstrong and others may know of lots of black silver, European hordes and estate silver, but I'm tempted to bet this won't come onto the market at anywhere near today's price. In fact, as Butler and others have shown, limit up orders should be expected to appear in the COMEX PreMarket soon. Maybe a limit down day on the dollar soon too, yes? Intervention failing, will not be seen until paper(derivatives)actually fail.

[Edit]

New Virus -- All Seeing Eye, 15:49:27 09/11/03 Thu

New virus WTC SURVIVOR. If received, delete immediately. It will destroy your "C" drive.
It comes as an email as the sender:
From: A WTC Survivor.

DO NOT OPEN.

ASE

[Edit]

Retracement -- Gann Man, 15:23:36 09/11/03 Thu

Yeah, the retracement does cometh, believe it, or not.

[Edit]

#six -- volavka, 14:52:29 09/11/03 Thu

nothing is for certain,on cypt it is unusual for a stock especially a otcbb to run strong without retracement.

D.D; potential here runs from 6.00 to 25.00 to 100.00 if the tech idiots ramp it.

[Edit]

German Min of Finance Hans Eichel spoke about Gold -- Wolfgang, 12:38:52 09/11/03 Thu

The fact, that Eichel mentioned gold ahead of the IMF meeting ( new gold agreement)was IMO curious. Interestingly his statement was not released in any newspaper or media here at home in Germany. He said, that gold would only be sold in small amounts of the BuBa. Here it comes to mind that there shoul not much Buba gold left anymore, probably because it was leased out or available only in paper claims for a future delivery. The german public seemingly shall not at all take notice on the issue GOLD or be able to discuss about it. Very suspicious ! The small amounts to be sold in the market can only mean the commemorative programs of coinage in the coming years. It shall testify that the Buba has GOLD at all. The first coin struck this year will be dedicated to the historic city of Quedlinburg, the following next year,to the city of Weimar ( birthplace of Goethe). I have ordered these beautiful half ounce 999 coins, . The last coin issued, was a 1 oz 200 € face value commem. remembering the introduction of the Euro, limited to 100.000 pieces. Oversubscribed 250 times. I was allotted with one and sold it on auction for over 1000 € to a collector. I simply couldn`t resist the price ! 200 € was the highest face value ever minted, much more than the well known Philharmonic of 2000 Austrian Schilling ( equals to only $ 130 but still high face too )

I love collecting gold and silver coins and bars and I`m not hesitating to hand in the seller on the counter the fiat Euro, which I earned hard, to get something real and beautiful with real value. As long as buying is possible in anonymity, I keep buying. The proceeds of the gold stocks I made so far are locked in the real thing. I did rent a second vault meanwhile and wait calmly for the fully paid growing gold and silver treasure to increase in value.

Presumably I`m not a normal german.

[Edit]

volavka -- number six, 12:28:52 09/11/03 Thu

Thanks for the information on those amep guys... very interesting. I kinda wish i'd paid more attention when you started mentioning CYPT... they're only up about 10x since then!! HOw sure are you about this buyout business...what might you know, & how,.. if you don't mind me asking. :) I might get some before the close.

[Edit]

cypt -- volavka, 11:09:14 09/11/03 Thu

Buyout coming, I'll take 12.00

[Edit]

woohoo! -- number six, 11:08:30 09/11/03 Thu

ag = $5.34.

[Edit]

weak give up -- volavka, 08:20:10 09/11/03 Thu

long and strong.

[Edit]

Deficits, fiat, taxes, lies! -- Hawk, 05:02:40 09/11/03 Thu

Fed gov. Wayne Angell [sp?] " our fiat monetary system is broken " he
didn't go so far as to call/recall the gold standard, but he did say
that all fiat should be tied to something. I seem to RECALL that
long, long ago, it was!

Anyway, on to the subject.

What does it cost to run the US of A federal government? Why, nothing
of course. So, you ask, why do I have to pay taxes? Good question,
there is no reason, except greedy politicians keeping you under their
boot heel.

Cost of the Fed.

$2,700,000,000,000.00 give or take a few copper [ used to actually be
copper ] pieces.

Here is where it gets interesting. What does it cost to print a $100
bill? Most people would mistakenly say about 2 cents, I contend that
it costs nothing. Let's do the math.

Assuming the false 2 cent fabrication. $2,700,000,000,000.00 is how
many $100 bills? Simple enough, lop off a couple of zeros. Now we
need 27,000,000,000 $100 bills to pay for the entire Federal
government spending. Each costs [ not really ] 2 cents. So we
multiply 27,000,000,000 times .02. Simple enough, lop off a couple
more zeros and double it. 270,000,000 times 2 = $540,000,000. But,
hell, why stop here, I said it costs nothing, not even that measly
$540 billion. How can we pay for that $540 billion in printing costs?
I have an idea, lets print the money, cool! Repeat the process.

Assuming the false 2 cent fabrication. $540,000,000.00 is how many
$100 bills? 5,400,000. At 2 cents each = $108,000. Hold on now this
was supposed to cost nothing. Yes, yes, of course, we must pay for
that pesky 108k.

Simple enough 108,000 turns out to be 1,800 $100 bills times the .02
works out to be $36, still not zero, but Sir Uncle Al, in all his
wisdom says, hey, just print 200,000 of those $100 on that last run,
instead of the 1,800 and we will be running a surplus.

Fed math 101.

Have a great day.

Hawk

[Edit]

Comedy Central {Banks}! Chronicles -- auspec, 20:26:04 09/10/03 Wed

From 2night's MIDAS w permission:

John B {John Brimlow} also sent me {MIDAS} the following from one of his sources:

Sounds like the central banks are now getting desperate. The reason the market sold off over night was because the Central Bank of Eritrea, Africa sent out faxes to the world advising they wish to sell their entire gold reserves. They contacted non-gold market participants. Market has bounced when the world realized they only have 200,000 oz.

We have seen good gold sales from non-WAG countries.

The central banks are going to get the gold market very wrong.

-END-
{MIDAS} The Gold Cartel must be getting really desperate to be making phone calls to Eritrea!

Auspec Comments: We're scraping the bottom of the barrel here, folks.............Eritrea is BARELY even on the map. These clowns haven't been strategizing very well, but what else is new?

Steady as she goes...............MUCH higher.

I'm waiting for my Mother-in-Law to call me about buying gold before I start taking profits. It never fails.

P.S. Posting at ER has been extremely difficult for nearly a week!

[Edit]

Comedy Central {Banks}! Chronicles -- auspec, 20:22:46 09/10/03 Wed

From 2night's MIDAS w permission:

John B {John Brimlow} also sent me {MIDAS} the following from one of his sources:

Sounds like the central banks are now getting desperate. The reason the market sold off over night was because the Central Bank of Eritrea, Africa sent out faxes to the world advising they wish to sell their entire gold reserves. They contacted non-gold market participants. Market has bounced when the world realized they only have 200,000 oz.

We have seen good gold sales from non-WAG countries.

The central banks are going to get the gold market very wrong.

-END-
{MIDAS} The Gold Cartel must be getting really desperate to be making phone calls to Eritrea!

Auspec Comments: We're scraping the bottom of the barrel here, folks.............Eritrea is BARELY even on the map. These clowns haven't been strategizing very well, but what else is new?

Steady as she goes...............MUCH higher.

I'm waiting for my Mother-in-Law to call me about buying gold before I start taking profits. It never fails.

P.S. Posting at ER has been extremely difficult for nearly a week!

[Edit]

here we go again -- qwerty, 19:10:39 09/10/03 Wed

============
Wed 4:28pm ET - Reuters
Stocks sank on Wednesday as what was said to be new footage of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden rattled investors a day before the second anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States
=============

tape probably made at CIA headquarters in US ... probably using people with work visas too

then sent to Al "the disinfo news" Jazeera for distribution

and then Reuters ... another disinfo news agency ... reports the tape

[Edit]

oops, he slipped off the helicopter -- qwerty, 14:26:26 09/10/03 Wed

from calandra ...
===
"We all have to live with the excesses of the past, like Bre-X," Wayne Murdy, chief executive of Newmont Mining, recently told me. He was referring to the mid-1990s wool that Bre-X Minerals pulled over the world's eyes, a hoax so overreaching that few fled the company's $200-plus shares until the miner's chief geologist flung himself from a helicopter into the rain forest of Borneo.
===

Bre-X was just another financial covert operation from within the cabal ... US, Canadian and Philippines officials were involved in that one ... Barrick also played key roles and we all know the slime that inhabits their boards

they probably cleaned up going short the gold shares at that time ... probably got out of Bre-X near high price to

the chief geologist likely had to be murdered to clean up the crime trail

when wayne murdy accidently flungs himself out a helicopter, we can talk about the "accident" or "suicide"

[Edit]

Something big in making -- volavka, 13:24:56 09/10/03 Wed

Don't sleep tonite

[Edit]

Yuan -- Netking, 13:24:08 09/10/03 Wed

Don't expect any change soon, Treasury Secretary John Snow left China without gaining any firm commitments on the currency front, nor will he. It was only a year back the PRC were concerned about capital flight from the country to safer havens overseas. But now, the Chinese government is more concerned about "hot money", that is cash that moves easily and quickly across borders, fueling speculative booms on the way. Officials and economists alike say around $20-$30 billion has poured into the PRC in the last 6 months alone, that is in addition to the $30 billion of official foreign investment. Whilst U.S. manufacturers, say the Chinese currency is undervalued by as much as 40 percent. . . . . and despite the rhetoric that "some day" they will have a floating currency, do not expect changes that will pass control outside the halls of the Peoples Bank Of China, anytime soon anyway.

[Edit]

Ill gotten gains -- volavka, 10:55:30 09/10/03 Wed

Okay so we all know that the federal Income tax is a fraud, bush has no jobs and china won't float.

So what can u expect?

Expect the new rainbow to shine on gold because the 2 tier dollar is coming home.

Offshore old will be taxed upon entry.
Bush will scrap the federal tax system .

Enron will prove something must be done now not later.

Gold wins all around.

[Edit]

Gross National Deficit Update -- HBM, 08:25:30 09/10/03 Wed

The Gross deficit for the first eleven months combined, logged in at $561.8 Billion. My projection of a gross deficit of at least $700 Billion for the current fiscal year ending 09-30-03 is lagging behind schedule. A deficit of approximately $138 billion in the final month of the fiscal year will bring the gross deficit to $700 Billion. Stranger things have happened this year.

The highest single month gross deficit (Approximately $112 Billion) occurred during the month of June. Of course that figure as with all the others are manipulated and smoked away temporarily; however the ongoing to-date figures take on real significance even with the continual massages.

I would like to refer to a previous link provided by Goldustorm (see post @ Goldustorm, 20:05:55 08/28/03 Thu:

http://www.etherzone.com/2003/henr082803.shtml

The article in the link was written by Ed Henry. I have extracted the following from the article:

”On July 31st, the U.S. Treasury put (tendered) $44.9 billion worth of 2-year notes on the "auction" block at an annual interest rate of 1.5 percent and only $25 billion were sold (accepted). The Federal Reserve picked up another $4.9 billion of these notes for a total of $29.9 billion sold. That's two-thirds the offering.

“On August 15th, the Treasury put $44.7 billion worth of 5-year notes on the block at 3.25 percent interest and only $18 billion were sold. The Federal Reserve picked up an additional $3.4 billion worthof these notes. That's less than half the offering.

“Also on August 15th, the Treasury put $35.7 billion worth of 10-year notes on the block at 4.25 percent annual interest and only $18 billion were sold. Here, the fed picked up $2.5 billion more…

“The Federal Reserve's role in picking up securities that do not sell to investors at auction, and holding those which do not then sell through the fed's ten subsidiary banks, also raises many questions about fiat money, devaluation of the dollar, and inflation when the big utilities and others following this action raise their prices accordingly.

“I suppose we should be thankful that, as they have in the past, the Federal Reserve isn't picking up all of the securities that don't sell to investors. It's bad enough that the fed currently holds more than 17 percent of the national debt.”

End of excerpt

HBM comment:

By my calculations based upon the above, the Fed’s subsidiary banks are holding in inventory $89.2 Billion in Treasuries from the above three auctions alone. Had the public been willing to purchase these securities the current fiscal year deficit would be $89.2 Billion higher.

Until reading this article I was unaware of this particular sleight of hand by the Treasury and the Fed. I am still not sure that I understand what is happening here.

Is the Fed simply holding these Treasuries as reserves (assets) and issuing Federal Reserve Notes for the Treasury to spend even though the securities were not really sold? If so does that mean that whatever amount of this type of inventory builds up in the subsidiary banks will eventually come home to roost? Does any interest accrue on these securities and if so, who to? Is it possible that the Fed subsidiaries eventually sell these in exchange for surplus social security and other trust funds when those surpluses come on line in the future? Or am I completely misunderstanding what Mr. Henry is saying.

Is Mr. Henry wrong about what he has presented in this article? If Mr. Henry is right and I understand what he is saying then what we have here is an apparent maneuver to avoid the monetization of these securities. If that is the case, clearly the day of reckoning is nigh.

If this truly is a delaying tactic to avoid monetization, we can be sure that it does not go unnoticed by the bond buyers and traders. Darkness is on the face of the deep.

HBM

[Edit]

amep -- volavka, 15:08:16 09/09/03 Tue

number six or someone asked about amep:
The product that AMEP is using has been tested and is being currently
used by major foreign oil interests. In Brasil, it is injected into deep
wells and thins the oil so that it can be pumped at 3000 bbls per day vs.
the 1000 that comes out without treatment. It's infused into the
pipeline that goes over the Andes so that the oil will flow faster and it
has an uncanny ability to completely dissolve asphaltine and
paraffin...in very small concentrations when forced into stripper wells
along with formation water. It's my belief that this is being done by
AMEP now and....usually, results are immediate (2-3 days) unless there
are "technical" problems with the pumps etc. We've seen 1-2 bbl a day
wells begin pumping 10-15 bbls over very long periods. The product was
developed over 100 years ago but never put into use for the oil industry.
Unlike other additives, this material is totally plant based.

HiHat: if u are around: cypt from .12 to 12.00.
hope you'vr got 5/10 million shares. Worth the ride.

[Edit]

Pygmies -- volavka, 08:13:32 09/09/03 Tue

sitting on giants can see much further:
Investing 101:
As the worm turns the little guy will flood into the pm mkts and push gold over 450 to start.

[Edit]

Commercial short covering -- volavka, 11:40:33 09/08/03 Mon

Banking dummies about to wear their asses for hats.

9-11 coming and forced to cover on open interest.

Could start tonite access mkt. Watch close.

[Edit]

targets -- volavka, 08:18:58 09/08/03 Mon

cypt short term 3.00/ long buyout 12.00

magr 1.00

frlk .75+

[Edit]

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU -- $hifty, 04:20:31 09/08/03 Mon

Ponzi Chart

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU

Nasdaq 1,858.24 + Dow 9,503.34 = 11,361.58 divide by 2 = 5,680.79 Ponzi

up 67.66 from last week.

Thanks for the link RossL !

Hope you get things dried out soon!

Go GATA !

Go GOLD!

Go Golden Comets!

$hifty

[Edit]

Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 21:14:28 09/07/03 Sun

[Edit]

GATA -- gata, 09:53:06 09/07/03 Sun

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

The business section of Sunday's New York Times has
taken note of the stirrings in the gold equities
markets with a report titled "From Canada, New Roads
to Gold." The Times report is appended here.

It may be hard to understand how the analyst from
CIBC World Markets in Toronto who is quoted here can
dismiss Minefinders and Wheaton River as
"underperformers" when their share prices are up
about 82 and 180 percent, respectively, over the last
year, but then you can't believe everything you read
in newspapers, including even The New York Times.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

* * *

From Canada, New Roads to Gold

By Bernard Simon
The New York Times
Sunday, September 7, 2003

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/07/business/yourmoney/07GOLD.html

TORONTO -- Sensing a renewed appetite among Americans,
a small army of foreigners is invading the United States with
new kinds of gold investments.

Ten small and midsized Canadian gold producers have been
listed on the American Stock Exchange in the last year. The
World Gold Council, a promotional group based in London,
is awaiting approval from the Securities and Exchange
Commission for a new exchange-traded fund backed by
gold bullion. A similar fund was set up this summer on the
Toronto Stock Exchange by a Canadian group with
significant participation from American investors.

"When gold gets moving, there's nothing like it," said Ilja
Graulich, general manager for investor relations at Durban
Roodepoort Deep, a South African gold producer that
also has interests in Australia and Papua New Guinea
and is listed on the Nasdaq. "It's very easy to get hold
of money at the moment," he said.

Gold is a part of many investors' portfolios, whether in
the form of bullion, coins or shares of the companies
that produce it. While the price of gold occasionally
bursts higher on fear of runaway inflation, political
instability or turbulence in financial markets, it has
yet to come close to its peak, in January 1980, when
it reached $850 an ounce. Gold investments were a big
disappointment for much of the 1980's and 90's.

Investors in gold and the mines that produce it have
done well in the last year. The metal was trading at
$377 an ounce on Friday, about 18 percent higher than
its 2002 average of $309. It briefly topped $380 this year,
before the war in Iraq began.

The Amex's Gold BUGS index has soared 86 percent
from its 52-week low, reached in October. (BUGS stands
for basket of unhedged gold stocks.) The Philadelphia
Stock Exchange Gold and Silver index, which includes
some companies that hedge part of their output, has
chalked up more modest gains, rising 17 percent so
far this year.

American gold funds are reporting substantial inflows.
"We're having our best year in quite some time," said
Joe Foster, who manages the Van Eck International
Investors Gold fund. The fund's assets have grown by
60 percent so far this year, to $250 million, with inflows
from investors accounting for about three-quarters of the
increase.

John C. Hathaway, manager of the Tocqueville Gold
fund, said that the fund's asset value had grown more
than 50 percent in the last year, to about $293 million.
The rising prices of its holdings accounted for less than
one-fifth of the increase, Mr. Hathaway said, with inflows
making up the rest.

Big gold producers like Newmont Mining of Denver,
AngloGold of South Africa and Barrick Gold and
Placer Dome of Canada, have traded on the New York
Stock Exchange for years. The 10 Canadian companies
that have been listed on the Amex in the past year
include the Iamgold Corporation, Northgate Exploration,
Wheaton River Minerals, Minefinders Corp., Eldorado
Gold Corp., Miramar Mining Corp., and Great Basin
Gold. The most recent was Gammon Lake Resources
of Nova Scotia, listed on Aug. 29.

"We're hearing from the companies that now is the
time when they can use the increase in the gold price
to gain access to the United States capital markets,"
said John McGonegal, vice president for equity sales
at the Amex.

The exchange has assigned one of its sales
representatives to Canada virtually full time to attract
listings and is sponsoring two conferences on gold this
year. Officials of International Investment Conferences
of Miami, which is organizing the events, said 252
analysts and fund managers had registered for one of
them, to be held this week in New York, roughly double
the number last year. About 3,000 individual investors
are also expected to attend, a fifth more than last year.

Jon A. Douglas, the chief financial officer at Northgate
Exploration, says that overall trading volumes in the
company's stock, which was already listed in Toronto,
have more than doubled since it was listed on the Amex
on July 11. Trading on the Amex has accounted for 31
percent of Northgate's daily volume.

Barry Cooper, a metals analyst at CIBC World Markets
in Toronto, wrote in a recent report that the stocks of
smaller gold producers had become more attractive partly
because of the weak financial performance of some
large producers, despite higher gold prices. Mr. Cooper
singled out Eldorado Gold and Cambior, which also trade
on the Amex. On the other hand, he called Minefinders
and Wheaton River "underperformers."

Mr. Hathaway, the fund manager, said, "People didn't
know about a lot of those stocks a year ago; now they
do know them."

Still, Barry J. Landen, vice president for corporate affairs
at Agnico-Eagle Mines, a Canadian gold company listed
on the New York Stock Exchange, said that while investor
interest was high, most of it was coming from familiar
faces. "We want to see some new faces," Mr. Landen
said.

In another move to expand choices for investors, the
World Gold Council applied to the S.E.C. in May for
approval to list its Equity Gold Trust, an exchange-traded
fund, on the New York Stock Exchange. Richard Simonelli,
a spokesman for the council, said, "Hopefully, sometime in
the fall, we'll have a better understanding on the timing of
the rollout."

A similar exchange-traded vehicle, Central Gold Trust,
listed on the Toronto exchange through a public offering in
July. The trust's president, Stefan Spicer, said that the 207
gold bars backing the trust were stored in the vaults of the
Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, and were not
pledged as collateral on any loans. The trust has also said
it will buy more gold whenever it issues new units so as not
to dilute existing shareholders' interests.

Mr. Spicer said investors outside Canada had bought about
20 percent of the units. "The amount of interest in the United
States has been very significant," he said. The trust's units
are trading at about 23 Canadian dollars ($16.79), compared
with the issue price of 20 Canadian dollars.

Of course, the performance of all these investments ultimately
depends on the price of gold.

The current popularity of gold has stoked the exuberance of
gold fund managers, newsletter publishers and others. Mr.
Hathaway concluded in a recent article that "neither the stock
or bond market is capable of delivering anything close to the
returns of the last 20 years."

"Once investors 'get real,' " he added, "they will migrate from
paper to tangible assets."

Not everyone shares such enthusiasm. Observing that the
gold market has its share of eccentrics, who tend to interpret
a small rise in prices as the start of a major bull run, Mr.
Graulich, the South African executive, said that "half the
gold stocks are discounting a price of between $450 and
$475 at the moment." If the price fails to reach those
levels, investing in these stocks could lose much of its
present allure.

[Edit]

Blood Brothers -- China Coins 2003, 02:11:11 09/07/03 Sun

[Edit]

1879 Smooth Transition Back to The Gold Standard.?. -- Tai, 23:23:22 09/06/03 Sat

From the Ron Paul speech, that auspec's link referenced:

"The return to gold in 1879 went smoothly and was
welcomed by the people, putting behind them the
disastrous Civil War inflationary period."

Money and Tyranny, Ron Paul Speech

"The return to the Gold Standard went smoothly" -- caught my eye...
I wonder how they accomplished that.?.

Any historians out there in ER land...

What or how could we accomplish that same smooth transition, in this era.
It might be worth looking into the mechanics of how they did it. Yes.

...Tai

PS: Thanks, auspec, for posting the link.

[Edit]

Hope You saw it -- auspec, 20:25:43 09/06/03 Sat

Our hero in the Congress, Ron Paul, electrified the Congress on Friday with
an amazing speech in which he:

1. Slammed our current fiat money monetary system as unfair to labor and
seniors;
2. Condemned central banks for manipulating the price of gold downward;
3. Chastised Federal Reserve Chairman Greenspan for hubris in thinking that
he and his band of cohorts could somehow outguess the free market;
4. Damned legal tender laws as immoral;
5. Warned about the threat fiat money poses to our freedom and our way of
life;
6. Decried the injustice to seniors who lose interest on their hard earned
savings as a direct result of the Federal Reserve's manipulating interest
rates for the benefit of special interests; and, much more.

For the text of Dr. Paul's speech, entitled "Paper Money and Tyranny,"
click on: http://www.fame.org/HTM/Paper%20Money%20and%20Tyranny.htm

http://www.fame.org/whatsnew.asp

Best Regards,

Larry Parks
Executive Director
FAME
Foundation for the Advancement of Monetary Education
Box 625, FDR Station
New York, NY 10150-0625

Tel: 212-818-1206
Fax: 212-818-1197
Email: mailto:Lparks@FAME.org
Website: http://www.FAME.org

To unsubscribe reply in Subject UNSUBSCRIBE. Be sure to include the
correct

[Edit]

H2O -- Netking, 17:38:24 09/06/03 Sat

More than a million people have been left without drinking water in Russia's Far East, devastated by the worst drought in 40 years....Yep, at Vladivostok Mayor Yuri Kopylov's order, water will be turned on only once every two days for four hours at a time, and it will have to be unfiltered for economy's sake, making it too dangerous to drink.

Water, secure you some H2O today [right Mr Tai].

[Edit]

@dotti.. @dotti's Friends.. -- Rex, 23:22:24 09/05/03 Fri

I'm unsure if I have a correct, or even recent, email address
of yours to give-out to those you might wish to contact you.

So, dotti, and Friends, please use *ONLY* the link below to
contact me for that purpose..

Dotti, we wish you the best, and have long enjoyed your
participation here at ER. Hopefully, things will work out
for the best, for you.

..Rex and ER

Contact_WebMaster:_Rex

[Edit]

no inflation here -- volavka, 23:22:18 09/05/03 Fri

feed me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,2763,1036729,00.html

[Edit]

Feed me -- volavka, 23:05:40 09/05/03 Fri

Will work for food.

No jobs in u.s. and 82 percent of pensions underfunded.

82
82
82
82
read my lips, as dollars falls boomers are doomed.

[Edit]

Macmin Ag -- Netking, 15:32:02 09/05/03 Fri

[MMN on the ASX] Total Inferred Resource is 34.5 million oz's silver but the district is unexplored for epithermal silver and exploration to date suggests a district potential of 50 to 100m ozs Ag or perhaps much more. Macmin holds the land freehold rights as well as mineral rights held over 350 square kilometers of land....suggests that the entire Texas Silver District could host several (many) silver deposits similar to Twin Hills. Recent check assaying suggests grades in the Resource and Reserves are understated by between 5.5% and 28% with a possible average understating of 12%. high grade ore containing more than 60g/t Ag low grade ore, which at this stage is defined as containing between 30 and 60 g/t Ag.

POS above $7.00[USD] 'n this little Ag stock might fly....along with some others...

[Edit]

little guys/gals -- volavka, 13:34:41 09/05/03 Fri

posted this early in day but do not see it :

magr
cypt
frlk
amep

all set to run strong.
This server has problems

[Edit]

little guys/gals -- volavka, 13:34:08 09/05/03 Fri

posted this early in day but do not see it :

magr
cypt
frlk
amep

all set to run strong.
This server has problems

[Edit]

Comedy Central {Banks}! -- auspec, 10:54:07 09/05/03 Fri

From Midas commentary:

{Midas} "When gold is about ready to break out, the cabal brings up central bank gold sales:"

Eichel Says Germany Could Sell Gold Only in `Small Steps'
2003-09-04 03:36 (New York)

Eichel Says Germany Could Sell Gold Only in `Small Steps'

Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- German Finance Minister Hans Eichel said the world's second-largest holder of gold could sell its gold reserves only in ``small steps'' even if it gets a larger share of central bank sales under a new gold agreement next year.
``The gold market is very sensitive,'' Eichel said in a televised interview with Bloomberg News. ``If the Bundesbank takes part in the next accord, then one will only be able to enter the market in very small steps or the price will collapse.''

Bundesbank President Ernst Welteke has said he wants the option to sell some of the bank's gold when a central bank accord limiting sales is up for review next year. The Finance Ministry, which is looking for ways to bring the government's budget deficit below a European Union limit, said last year it doesn't plan to use revenue from the sale to plug the gap.

Eichel said Germany will struggle to avoid breaching an EU deficit limit for a third year in 2004 as a stagnating economy and rising unemployment curb tax revenue.

``It will take an immense effort,'' to cut next year's deficit to 3 percent of gross domestic product, the EU's upper limit, Eichel said.

Germany lags only the U.S. in gold holdings and has about 3,500 tons. Welteke, who as head of the country's central bank is in charge of the gold reserves, has said the agreement should be renewed.

The 15-nation accord, forged in 1999, has helped pull the metal from a 20-year low of around $250 an ounce to a six-year high of $390.80 an ounce in February. The so-called Washington accord limits European central banks to selling 400 tons of gold a year.
--Christian Baumgaertel in the Frankfurt newsroom (49 69) 92041-
201, or at cbaumgaertel@bloomberg.net. Editor: Hamade, Coulter
END

{Midas} "This talk out of Germany, who always mouths off with comments like this on gold rallies, follows the incomprehensible report released by The World Bank yesterday about gold going to $300 because of increased mine supply in the next few years."

"Seems to me The Gold Cartel and friends are desperate because they know what they have done for many years and are terrified the world is going to find out how short and exposed they are. Well, I have news for them. The world is going to find out and many of the guilty are going to get their just deserts – in the court of public opinion if nowhere else."

"The good news is we are dealing with a bunch of bumbling central bankers who are in the process of really botching things up for the citizens of their respective countries."

auspec comments.............I don't think the emperor is clothed! This is truly laughable also. Next week we'll hear Greenspandex say "Central Banks stand ready to lease.............", having fully forgot that he's already used up that ploy. Wolf! Wolf! These people are complete fools.......& they're supposed to be running the world?

Show us the gold Herr Eichel!!

[Edit]

Photo Finish! -- auspec, 10:44:40 09/05/03 Fri

Folks, the little horse with the BIG golden heart pulled it off!!!

Up $4.70 on the day........a clean race all the way to the finish line. And the little people in the infield are dancing today.

{2 much time on my hands........sorry}

[Edit]

Nip & Tuck! -- auspec, 10:36:37 09/05/03 Fri

1:25...................$377.10

Is Goldman Saches flogging a dead horse?

[Edit]

And Down the Stretch They Come!! -- auspec, 10:16:05 09/05/03 Fri

At 1:00 E.S.T. Seabiscuit {GOLD!} is @ $377.80, a full kneck in front of Man of War!

Let's watch the close carefully for signs of FOULS!

[Edit]

Silver food for thought -- Galearis, 06:44:37 09/05/03 Fri

I note that not a lot of comments made today (yet) about silver action. Might as well start. Having been out in the bush all summer I missed some of the background to the last significant silver explosion. From an email from rhody this AM. FWIW:
SNIP***********
Did you know that US Secretary of the Treasury Snow asked the Chinese to revalue their
Yuan upwards again just yesterday? The last time the US publicly asked the Chinese to
do this, silver blew upwards 29 cents. The Chinese said they would "eventually" raise their
Yuan. Here I think is their real response to the US request. Silver and gold will explode and that will carry the USD down, which will carry the Yuan down because the Yuan is rigidly linked to the FOREX rate for the USD.
I think that the US has violated a behind closed doors agreement that goes something like
this: " We the US, will support your application for membership in the WTO, provided you the
Chinese, will suppress the price of silver through central bank sales and leasing. There may
have been agreement by the US to allow the undervalued Yuan to be linked to the US dollar."
Since the Yuan is not traded internationally and cannot be bought by foreign dealers, the
artificial value cannot be broken upwards by US manipulation of FOREX through options.
Meanwhile, the same cannot be said for the US dollar. If the Chinese want the USD down,
(and the Yuan down too) they merely have to sell some of their 500 billion dollars in central
bank US dollars, and they can tank the Treasury market as well because most of this is in the
form of Treasuries.
Silver continues to go straight up as I type this, now up 10 cents. (2%)

FWIW, Rhody
******
At the same time, however, I do not see (yet) gold following in silver's rooster tail wake. Going to be an interesting day methinks...

G.

[Edit]

It's Friday -- volavka, 06:43:08 09/05/03 Fri

Start early:

http://fun.drno.de/flash/beer.swf

[Edit]

@Tree, et al -- dotti, 06:01:00 09/05/03 Fri

Thanks so much for your words of comfort!

I wish I had more time to analyze your thoughts, but you did a very good job of a straightforward approach, so I think I understand all.

I may not be able to visit this forum anymore. I may be moving on to a situation where a computer would be available only infrequently. I will try to visit.

Any of you who would like to be able to reach me, please contact me via email ASAP and I will try to respond with information while I still can. Rex, please take this as formal authorization to give out my email as you see fit. I would rather deal with one unwelcomed caller than to miss a contact from someone who could provide me comfort.

I will still be watching the gold situation as best I can.

dotti

[Edit]

@SoJo -- dotti, 05:53:12 09/05/03 Fri

I am in dire need of communicatin with you.

I am sending my cell # to your email.

dotti

[Edit]

Metamorphosis -- Sojourner, 05:34:37 09/05/03 Fri

I will become my name on Sunday. Open roads beckon from the northern climes. I'll probably settle in a month or so and shall return. auspec, beesting and SLATT, keep these people honest.

Regards,
Sojourner

[Edit]

"Let The Looting Of Iraq Begin" -- Netking, 01:17:14 09/05/03 Fri

Exec. Ord. 13315: The Official Looting of Iraq

The executive order from President Bush [that follows in this link and expands upon executive order 13303] appears to be an asset grab under the guise of funding the Iraqi reconstruction, placing Iraq's state assets under control of the U.S. Treasury

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0309/S00048.htm

...Hmmm, wonder how those peace lovin locals like the little piece of legislation....watch that space...

[Edit]

Dotti and all -- Tree in the Forest, 21:20:29 09/04/03 Thu

“Things to Come”
by Tree in the Forest (with apologies to H.G. Wells)

Based on the reading that I’ve done at one of the links provided by the talent at this site (thank you all), here is what I have found out re: CC debt and “Things to Come”. As you are probably aware, there has been a concerted effort over the last several years via TV advertising to get people to “resolve” their debts thru credit counseling, bill consolidation etc. The reason is simple. Credit card debt is “printed” digital money i.e. no one has “put up” any money to extend you credit on your CC. It is created out of thin air as a ledger entry each time you charge something. This means that there is no “corpus delecti” or injured party if you fail to pay (in spite of the sob story they may give you on the phone). (Actually, we all know that this system injures all of us but that is not a legal argument.) Furthermore, it is unsecured debt so there is nothing to be taken from you if you don’t pay (like a house or car). This means that there are no grounds for them to collect any money from you UNLESS they get you do to one of two things:
1) Convert your unsecured debt to secured debt by consolidating your bills under a second mortgage.
2) OR “acknowledge” your debt to someone on the phone or otherwise. Saying “Yes I owe someone money” makes it so. You are admitting guilt.

“They” are trying very hard to induce you to take one of these courses of action. If you refuse to do either of these 2 things and you are delinquent, then they must prove their case against you which is, apparently, not so easy to do since there is no injured party. Thus the constant bleating on TV to get a 2nd mortgage, consolidate your bills, get credit counseling (in which you are forced to acknowledge your debt (“Yes, I owe some money”)) etc. etc. In other words, if you tell a CC bill collector “I don’t owe you anything; go ahead and prove otherwise” you will probably wind up not having to pay anything. Naturally, the purpose of all of this is to keep the debt machine going upon which is based our paper monetary system. Wouldn’t you like to “lend” money and collect the interest with absolutely no risk to yourself? Well the bankers have that privilege. It is all leading up to the day of reckoning which we all know is very close now. (Keep your eye on Oct gold.) Unsecured, unacknowledged debt may be obliterated in what is coming as it will no longer be possible to simply print money in this fashion on a gold standard. Thus, the by now endless push to get you to either secure your loan or acknowledge it. And furthermore the push for on-phone, online check writing and debit cards. Of course it is all couched as them “helping“ you and doing you a big favor. What a crock! It is, of course, possible to have credit cards on a gold standard. Someone will have to put up their gold to guarantee your payment. They lose it if you don’t pay. Now how many people will qualify for one of these “gold cards”? (grin) The CC business will never be the same!

I should also mention a new phenomenon which has recently appeared on TV ads. It is the wonderful new service so thoughtfully provided at some supermarkets now for the first time in history. That alone should tell you something. A machine to convert all that heavy coin money you’ve been carrying around into nice light paper money. Isn’t that sweet of them? They keep the Treasury-obligation coins while you get the “about to be devalued” Federal Reserve paper IOUs. Another rip-off! Isn’t it wonderful how our government and banking system work together to help us?

I wouldn’t worry too much, Dotti, about a lot of what is happening now. Much of it will be obliterated when the government can no longer print money. As I recall, the first Congress had a budget of some $88,000 dollars. What is that in today’s dollars? What will happen when the government is once again under the severe fiscal constraints of a gold standard?

And what will happen to the average individual when all of this goes down? Sometime ago, someone posted a link to a Fed (Treasury?) document on counterfeiting. It was fairly obtuse as one would expect from government workers trying to rationalize their jobs. However, I managed to glean one interesting fact from it. According to this document, 60% of all dollars reside overseas. This number is actually quite different from some of the speculation that I have heard on the gold sites. Numbers as high as 80-90% overseas have been bandied about. Now if 90% of dollars were to come home it would mean a 10 fold inflation. At 80 % this becomes a 5 fold inflation. But 60% is a mere 2.5 fold inflation. And this number seems reasonable.

For example, we have been informed that a very wealthy oriental gentlemen is willing to pay $2000/oz for gold. If gold were adjusted to this value and then all of the overseas dollars came home in a hyperinflationary scenario, the dollar would devalue until the POG reached $5000/oz, a 2.5 fold inflation. Monetary conversion would then follow readily via moving a decimal point 2 places and the face value of the Gold Eagle would be manifest as POG. Some might worry that many would be hurt by this inflation but it’s not really true. If after all, stocks, bonds and real estate have been grossly overvalued, as many here believe, then such an adjustment would merely be returning them to their true value. And those who place their faith in overvalued assets, while simultaneously ignoring an undervalued asset i.e. gold, shall reap as they sow. And why should it be otherwise?

I hope this helps you feel a little more comfortable with what is about to happen. If it plays out this way, justice will be served. Good luck to you Dotti.

[Edit]

Assisted Living......... -- mini, 20:25:05 09/04/03 Thu

The biggest problem with the younger generation these days is that I don't belong to it any more.

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times....(At my age, that's true of everything you can possibly ever say.)

I used to have Saturday Night Fever...Now I just have Saturday Night hot flashes.

Ever get the feeling your stuff strutted off without you?

Any woman can have the body of a 21-year-old...as long as she buys him a few drinks first.

My memory's not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.

Know how to prevent sagging?

Just eat till the wrinkles fill out.

I've still got it, but nobody wants to see it.

I'm getting into swing dancing. Not on purpose... some parts of my body are just prone to swinging.

It's scary when you start making the same noises

as your coffeemaker.

The good news is that even as we get older, guys still look at our boobs. The bad news is they have to squat down first.

These days about half the stuff in my shopping cart says, "For fast relief.

I've tried to find a suitable exercise video for women my age. But they haven't made one called, "Buns of Putty."

Don't think of it as getting hot flashes. Think of it as your inner child playing with matches.

Don't let aging get you down...It's too hard to get back up.

[Edit]

Train Leaving Platform......... -- AuAg, 20:22:08 09/04/03 Thu

"Why was I unable to help them?"
"How will I be able to help them in the future?"
"Why did I understand when they didn't?"

Good Sir! Some eyes are sealed shut by higher sources. Others are much more fortunate. Your ability to care about others facing difficulty WILL manifest in future actions. How can it not? It is most rare and it is who you obviously are.

Knowledge is one of life's greatest blessings & it never finds its way into the hands of hoarders. Thanks is appropriate as well as a humble request for more.........

"When the pupil is ready...........the teacher will appear"
Wachovia or First Union will take that on deposit........tis as good as $ {much better}.

Personally........I do all I can to help an individual and if they can't figure it out........eventually efforts are spent elsewhere. Fertile ground must be found, no? No Dead Seas allowed.

[Edit]

Flinter - 09:34:23 - 4 Sept 03 -- All Seeing Eye, 19:47:20 09/04/03 Thu

Flinter,

You have gathered my thoughts and stated them with the coherence that I wish I could have done. I cannot match my thought symbols with my written symbols. But thank you for doing this for me.

Synchronocity - Last night I was reading a short essay by Stephen Hawking on Galileo and was caught by this sentence, "Galileo's renowned conflict with the Catholic Church was central to his philosophy, for he was one of the first to argue that man could hope to understand how the world works, and moreover, that we could do this by observing the real world." (Of course, Galileo paid dearly for his outspoken ideas that were contrary to the Church.)

Yes, a change is coming. The Mayan calendar has an end date of 2012. There is a theory that they did not mean the end of mankind, but a shift in consciousness or the end of the path of thoughts as we know them now. (Questioner is much more qualified than I to speak of the Mayans.) So, if we are still around, we shall see.

I admire your upbeat attitude and respect your compilation of ideas.

Still trying,
ASE

[Edit]

gold -- volavka, 15:34:31 09/04/03 Thu

I have waited for this sideways action all week to end, now we go heavy bag.

If you travel north on red arrow hwy north of New Buffalo you will run into Berrien Springs, Mich.

This is the home of Muhammad Ali. One great fighter and One great individual.

Go heavy or go home.
Gold knows, watch fridays action!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edit]

GATA -- minigata, 14:58:21 09/04/03 Thu

[GATA] New gold supply study by Veneroso posted at
GoldMoney via Gold Newsletter
Date: 9/4/2003 11:41:28 AM Central Standard Time
From: GATAComm@aol.com
To: gata@yahoogroups.com

12:31p ET Thursday, September 4, 2003

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

GATA consultant Frank Veneroso's latest study, "An
Update on the Commodity Case for Gold," published
in the most recent issue of Brien Lundin's Gold
Newsletter, has been posted in the clear at
GoldMoney.com.

Veneroso's study is probably the most comprehensive
and important analysis of the gold supply situation
published this year and thus is essential reading.

Ending a too-long absence from the public stage,
Veneroso will be a major speaker at the New Orleans
Investment Conference at the end of October, to which
GATA is sending a delegation.

You can find Veneroso's study in the "Founder's
Commentary" box on the GoldMoney home page
here:

http://goldmoney.com/en/index.php

If you read only one thing about the markets today,
read this one.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

[Edit]

9/11: Two Years On - Madeleine K Albright -- Netking, 10:54:54 09/04/03 Thu

Albright on the strategic errors undermining George Bush's war on terrorism.

http://afr.com/articles/2003/09/04/1062548957083.html

[Edit]

Changes -- Flinter, 09:34:23 09/04/03 Thu

Something very interesting is happening (something wonderful)...something way beyond the Keynes vs Mises economics debate, which is just a small part of a huge mural.

The Western worldview was born out of (I’m going to say) Galileo and his “mechanical world” insight. It was a giant step ahead in human enlightenment and helped to overthrow centuries of dogma.

It also set the stage for future centuries of a new (but similar) dogma. One this time supported by advances in technology. The wolves adopted new clothes…new symbol systems…but the game continued.

That mechanical universe insight basically said that the MATERIAL UNIVERSE PRECEEDED CONSCIESNESS. This set the stage for “planning” of all sorts. We can design the world, design economics, design society any way we want...as long as we have enough data and the right models and methodology. Or at least, our “superiors” can. Among other things; Communism, socialism, facism, fiat money (& therefore planned economies), etc. etc. etc. were born.

All from that one insight from Galileo. It took a few centuries to build, but build it did...to the extent that it impacted government, education, medicine, economics, i.e. the Vertical world we now live in.

It is this “Western” worldview that we now see playing out...or petering out. Because, you see, that worldview was WRONG.

An interesting thing is happening. Starting, again (in a way), from physics and this simple principle discovered by Quantum Physics: “you cannot separate the experimenter from the experiment”. This was discovered early in the 20th century.

From it, developed Quantum Mechanics...which is changing the world of science. Much as the old “mechanical universe” scientists hate it...they must use it because, you see, it works. And nothing else does…nothing else predicts on the micro or macro scale.

But the true impact, like Galileo’s insight is yet to come. You see… that new insight is that…

CONSCIOUSNESS PRECEDES THE MATERIAL UNIVERSE!

This insight is, even now, rolling through science like a hurricane. That mechanical universe worldview is dying. (in biology...helped along by my little buddies...the slime mold)

There is an enormous cultural change in this picture. We are no longer helpless units in a mechanical universe that has no meaning, and run by “experts”. Our lives planned, controlled. The “controllers” are as helpless in this new world as the flat worlders were when the Galilean world view appeared.

And the really exciting thing is the impact on individual lives. We live in a dynamic universe. Not a static one. It is interactive…material interacts with thought, or to be more precise, thought interacts with material. Physical things, are energy, energy is somehow part of the ether...emptyness... and all of it is somehow based upon consciousness. OUR CONSCIOUSNESS. And as we recognize that we live in a universe based on consciousness, what is our role individually?

Good question.

It's a serious situation. It's going to seem as if the world is ending...and in a way it is....the OLD world of symbols and systems that don't work anymore. But which really never did work all that well.

But we'd better have fun with it because otherwise we're going in for a very uncomfortable ride. Huge changes… everywhere in the world... coming faster and faster.

What we see happening today, the fascist development in America, is a late, retro reaction by a dying world view.

It will fail with the entire worldview of which it is a tiny part.

So, bring along those you can... as best you can. But trying to change people by use of the current vertical world methods, models, tactics... will not work. You cannot get this kind of message across playing those old games. A new political party or “better” judges on the supreme court, or a new Fed chairman, or better pedagogy in our schools…none of it will work. Let them die, let it all die...as it must.

Lay the groundwork for what comes next.

Talk to people, tell the truth. But don’t dwell on it. Focus on yourself and your SELF and be a model for your friends, your family, your community.

And enjoy life.

Nothing will have a bigger impact.

Good luck,
Flinter

[Edit]

raw power -- number six, 07:23:40 09/04/03 Thu

haug that's the greatest idea I've heard yet. He was very fond of golden apples, but I fear he might pay off California's debts with flax money. His campaign platform, (to paraphrase Sly & the Family Stone,) "everybody is a tsar!"

"Major goal of first term: California secesion. [Oregon, WashingtonState and B.C. invited to join Freetopia....]

First order of business on assuming office: Fire 33% of the legislature [names selected at random] and replace them with full-grown adult ostritches, whose mysterious and awesome dignity will elevate the suidean barbarity long established there." you get the picture. All Hail Discordia.

[Edit]

Sinclair re World Bank -- auspec, 04:38:04 09/04/03 Thu

Erratum
Author: Jim Sinclair

I reported earlier that the BIS had bad-mouthed gold today. However, when I browsed for the article and found it,I learned it was not the BIS.

It was probably the least market and business savvy group on the planet - the World Bank.

Have you ever visited the World Bank? This is the domicile of all homeless but well-connected PhD's in the world.

These are the same people who sold the world on the US Dollar Standard. These are also the people who could not even do simple arithmetic when they demanded pluralist elections in Burundi and Rwanda.

That demand was the cause of a genocide that followed the unseating of the minority party which controlled the army. Simple arithmetic - which the World Bank forgot to do - could have indicated a war would follow.

These non-business, non-market people have egos the size of the world for no reason whatsoever. They have screwed up everything they have done. So their bad mouthing of gold is in all probability the most bullish thing I have heard in years.

Post this on the gold chat boards because it has been misreported by others as the BIS which is a step up from the World Bank - but not by much.
END

[Edit]

changes in me and perhaps changes all around me -- I don't want to say who I am, 04:36:20 09/04/03 Thu

first I must apologize, there are two pints of wine missing, and I know where they went....

I think something seems to have changed on the gold forums. I read here and atr about the world banks report on golds lusterous prospects. The report seems to be greeted with laughter. For good enough reason, I guess. I smiled when I learned of it. Are any of the gold bugs concerned? Are there any weak hands left out there? If tomorrow gold trades for $297 us, will it be greeted with fear or more buying? I own mostly physical, but have some gold and silver stocks, which I don't really follow anymore. They are up some. I used to fancy myself as some sort of trader, but my online borker was bought out by another and during a phone conversation regarding the transferr of accounts I rather impulsivly said, "you know what, just send me the certificates." I havn't opened an account with another broker, I haven't even looked into it. Turns out the certificates are printed on pretty paper, I want to keep them.

We have been sitting in the train car for a vary long time. We talked about someday the train would leave the station. It's moving very gradually at least it seems that way to me, but the train is moving now. It feels like it won't stop. This is it isn't it. It's been "happening" for a little while now. I am afraid. I don't want to get off or anything but there are people on the platform waiting for some other train that I don't think is comeing. This is going to be really bad isn't it. Their 401k's are shattered, they don't have the pension they think they do. I am worried about them. I tried to help them, the ones I know, but I failed. I was unable to get any of them to look into buying a ticket on this train.

I guess the reason I am posting, the question that I am asking, is "What happens next?" Not global finance, not macro economics, but what happens next to the people left on the platform. How can I help them? I am not so drunk to think... no thats not true, I am drunk enought to think the answer is here. I came here, well Kitco five years ago. There was a consensus, there was a prediction. I listened and learned and acted and the prediction proved to be true. Are Eagle Ranch and Kitco and USAGold the equivalent of modern oracles?
Black Blade suggests that we are the ants, and the grasshoppers will be left to freeze. I am not satisfied by that. I want to know what I can do to help the grasshoppers. I used to think that I was better than them. They financed their firvolous lifestyles with debt and thought this was something worth flaunting. I worked as hard as I could and saved and learned to save in gold. But the only difference is that I was too conservative to accumulate debt and I stumbled into Kitco and out of pure ruthless greed stayed to learn how to become rich. Well, I am a hairs breadth from not needing a "job". But it wasn't me, it was luck. And now, it's all about to fall apart for them, and I don't want to say I told you so and turn away as they "freeze".
Why was I unable to help them?
How will I be able to help them in the future?
Why did I understand when they didn't?

[Edit]

Story time -- volavka, 03:53:18 09/04/03 Thu

Once upon a time, world bunk and the I.B.S. showtime.

The price of pork bellies locked limit because it's July and the BLT season is here. Follow my point.

Gold knows and grows.

[Edit]

At last, a Kiwi car that runs on water -- Aqua_Eagle, 03:20:06 09/04/03 Thu

New Zealand tycoon Alan Gibbs has launched an amphibious sports car, the Aquada, which he plans to put into commercial production next month.

The realisation of seven years' intensive design work...
The Aquada has a stainless steel and aluminium frame and a glass reinforced polyester shell. powered by a Rover 2.5-litre V6-K series engine. It has a top speed of 169km/h on land and 48km/h on water - fast enough to tow a skier.
As it takes to water the wheels retract and a jet unit propels the machine. The process is reversed when it reaches land. It has a range of 480km on land and about 80km on water. ["fair use" of copyright NZH article]

Aquada

Just ANOTHER interesting way to get to the office.

[Edit]

Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 21:03:11 09/03/03 Wed

[Edit]

Robert Anton Wilson ... -- hAug, 19:45:46 09/03/03 Wed

... for Governor of California !

Get Out The Vote

[Edit]

Laughter 101.................Chronology of Lame Attempts -- auspec, 19:21:04 09/03/03 Wed

The ER gold quashing attempts contest is over but we might as well chronicle the various lame attempts by TPTB to diss gold. This should be GOOD!! The WGC report , just out, has been placed under "Laughter 101" on Forum 8. Please place anything of this nature that comes out from these inept clowns under that category, OK??

They are in the deep mucky stuff if this is as good as they can do..........hahahaha.

[Edit]

Laughter 101 -- auspec, 18:57:57 09/03/03 Wed

Looks like the Jackson Hole boyz are a too clever by 1/2. Out of Midas:

{Midas} This report by the World Bank may be one of the most egregious ones on gold I have ever read. It could only be written by some robotic idiots. Surely, it shows how desperate The Gold Cartel and friends are. Incredible, the World Bank is supposed to be of help to poor countries in the world. Instead, they do work to purposely drag them down. When the gold price explodes, there should be a full-scale investigation into how such a report was ever concocted!

REUTERS World Bank sees gold price falling, nickel strong

WASHINGTON, Sept 3 (Reuters) - The World Bank forecast on Wednesday the gold price, trading around $370 an ounce, should fall below $300 an ounce as new, low-cost mines are started and producers slow the rate they've been buying gold back to unwind price protection contracts.

Gold stormed from around $250 an ounce lows last year, reaching a 6-1/2 year high at $388.50 in February as the U.S. dollar fell and threats of war against Iraq grew.

But the bank said gold's rise should weaken over the medium-term.

"Over the medium-term prices are expected to fall below $300 an ounce as supplies from all sources exceed demand," the World Bank said in a Global Economic Prospects report.

"Even below $300/oz, mine production is expected to continue to increase moderately as new low-cost operations come on stream," it said.

The World Bank also said key for the gold price was whether central bankers renegotiate a 1999 European Central Bank Gold Sales Agreement to limit their gold sales.

The agreement, which restricts some central banks to selling only 400 tons of gold per year, expires a year from now. Market participants have speculated it will be
renegotiated at next month's International Monetary Fund-World Bank annual meetings in Dubai.

The bank said gold companies had been unwinding their gold hedging programs, cutting hedge books by 4.5 million ounces in the first quarter this year.

"It is expected that producer dehedging will slow in the second half of this year and in 2004, and remove much of the support under gold prices," it said

Major gold producers have been buying back gold and cutting their hedging programs since the price stirred from $250 an ounce. Smaller hedge books give producers bigger exposure to a rising gold price.

The World Bank was more optimistic about the nickel price, saying it should jump significantly over the next couple of years with no new projects on the horizon until about 2006…...

-END-

Gold production going up? There isn't anyone in the gold world who says that, anywhere! {Midas}

*****************************************************

auspec Comment: I distinctly remember saying these blokes are beyond incompetent..............hahahaha

They're gonna have to do a little better than this sham.............hahahaha.

[Edit]

Where's the rainbow -- volavka, 17:53:29 09/03/03 Wed

Money?????????????????????????????

All currency offshore is counterfeit.
Honor among rainbows.

What's @ the end of the rainbow? SNOW knows.

[Edit]

Rus -- Netking, 17:25:44 09/03/03 Wed

Why would buyers want to support a market and pay higher prices...

Perception: . . . Au players looking not so much "where we've come from" but rather "where we're going to". As a buyer if you perceive a higher [much] POG later and in tight market market conditions . . . you will accumulate [steadily] now, in phase 1 of this bull. regards M

[Edit]

wolfgang -- auspec, 16:42:47 09/03/03 Wed

You're, of course, doing the prudent thing by taking a sabbatical and collecting some well earned chips. There is some froth present, no doubt. For the most part I'm still in the game..........waiting for a more public mania to unfold as these guys will definitely want a lot of my stocks at that time.........smile.

Risk is certainly an individual issue, no? This strong summer, unlike so many past, indicate we're possibly gonna fly soon {turkeys and all}. The turkeys should fly before TG............how's that?

So many stocks I own are event related and until these particular events play out they must be held. Drills, deals, whatever. The bullish concensus is what scares me the most, not individual stock prices.

Regards to you!

[Edit]

MIDAS Says BIG {!} Money Buying Gold -- auspec, 16:35:08 09/03/03 Wed

Snippet from LeMet w permission:

Last evening I received a call from a veteran Café member from London. He was told by his coin dealer in the United States there is a $4.6 billion buy order out there to buy physical gold and gold coins. This particular dealer, who travels extensively overseas, only has a tiny portion of that order, $200,000 in gold coins.

If true, it is a lot of gold. At $370 per ounce, it comes out to 389 short tons, almost the total amount the 15 European nations are selling under the Washington Agreement. 389 tons would be a minimum amount because much of this gold had to be purchased at lower levels. We don’t know how much has been purchased and how much there still is to go.

Normally, I would be quite skeptical of tails of such a grandiose order. But, that is EXACTLY how gold has traded for a month and would explain the price action and why the spec longs have not been forced out by cabal raids. Every time gold dips, this deep pockets buying group is there along with the Indians, Turks, ect.

$4.6 billion is no lightweight operation. Now that the information has come to my attention, I assume the buy program has been underway for some time, but still has a ways to go. Buying that kind of size takes time. It can also be another explanation for the huge increase in open interest on the Comex. These buyers must be very sophisticated, to say the least. Before going after physical gold, they surely would load up on futures and continue to support the futures on dips to protect their positions. Knowing the huge amount of ongoing buying to be done in the cash market, that would not be an inordinately difficult task.

Again, I can’t confirm this order. But, it sure fits right in..............

One more point to keep pounding home:

The most important fact of life about the gold market is the strength of the physical market versus The Gold Cartel. This sort of huge buying by a group, or one entity, confirms how significant it is to understand that aspect. Gold has been moving higher without the dollar weakening or due to any financial market disruptions, as evidenced by surging stock markets. The astounding size of the physical market gold buying is making life miserable for The Gold Cartel, a cabal which is used to getting its own way. The bums are running out of enough physical gold to keep the price from going up, way up. Whoever is the taking the cabal on knows just what they are doing.

Gold has no gaps to fill. Terrific! We still have a breakaway gap ahead of us:
END

Comment: I have yet to see this recent buying reported to originate in China............but it still could be so. No? Maybe that N.Z. Bankster that frequents these halls...? Question...........why would BUYERS want to support a market and pay higher prices? This sounds like their specific goal is to battle the shorts.......

Dr H doing his th{w}ang?

[Edit]

Be Dere....................GATA -- auspec, 15:07:35 09/03/03 Wed

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

GATA will be sending a big delegation to the New
Orleans Investment Conference -- to be held
Wednesday, October 29, through Sunday, November
2 -- and we'd really love to meet new and old friends
there.

The New Orleans conference is probably the most
gold- and silver-friendly of the general-interest
investment conferences in the United States, as
well as the most provocative. Set amid the backdrop
of the South's most eclectic city, the conference may
also be more fun than any other.

You can read all about it -- and register for it -- here:

http://www.neworleansconference.com/

GATA Chairman Bill Murphy again will be a featured
speaker at the conference. But there's another treat
for GATA supporters: Also speaking will be our
consultant Frank Veneroso, whose investigative
accounting helped to expose the central bank efforts
to suppress the gold price. It has been a long time
since Veneroso has spoken publicly like this, and
his remarks are eagerly anticipated.

Also representing GATA will be Reg Howe, whose
landmark lawsuit against the Bank for International
Settlements, the Federal Reserve, and the bullion
banks brought the gold price suppression issue to
the forefront; Robert K. Landis, who has provided
the essential analysis of Barrick Gold's position in
the gold and silver markets; Michael Bolser, GATA's
brilliant statistician; and me, who tries his best to
hold the coats of these geniuses when they know
enough to come in out of the rain.

The conference will offer plenty more of enormous
interest to gold, silver, and natural resource partisans:

-- Fox network personality Bill O'Reilly.

-- Richard Russell, editor of Dow Theory Letters and,
more than ever lately, a powerful advocate of gold.

-- CBSMarketWatch's fearless editor, Thom Calandra,
also editor of The Calandra Report, perhaps the only
one in the mainstream U.S. financial press who pays
close attention to gold and silver.

-- Bob Bishop, editor of Gold Mining Stock Report.

-- Brien Lundin, editor of Gold Newsletter.

-- Ian McAvity, editor of Deliberations on World Markets.

-- Lawrence Roulston, editor of Resource Opportunities.

-- Jim Rogers, the renowned global investor and co-founder
of the Quantum Fund with George Soros.

-- Exhibitions by dozens of resource companies, including
many that have supported GATA.

Once again the New Orleans Investment Conference has
generously pledged to make a contribution to GATA for
every GATA supporter who registers for the conference
and identifies himself as such in registering at the
conference's Internet site. The on-line registration form
has a section asking: "How did you hear about the
conference?" Just open the answer options box and click
on "GATA" and we'll be all set.

Air travel to New Orleans in October is very cheap
right now. The conference registration and a stay at the
conference hotel, the beautiful Sheraton New Orleans
at 500 Canal St. downtown, aren't as cheap. But you're
unlikely to find an investment conference that gives more
value in lovelier and more interesting surroundings with
more pleasant weather.

GATA is planning a reception for its friends during
the conference, and if you'd like to attend, please
e-mail me at GATAComm@aol.com so I can keep you
informed about the details.

We always have a great time at the New Orleans
conference -- spreading the word, meeting friends,
making contacts, and learning a lot about the world
economy and investment opportunities. We are confident
that the year ahead will be especially rewarding for
those with an interest in gold, silver, and other
natural resources.

On top of that, this year's conference coincides with
Halloween. His colleagues on the GATA delegation
are hoping to dress Reg Howe up as Federal Reserve
Chairman Alan Greenspan, and if we can ply Reg with
enough Hurricanes -- the popular local mixed drink --
he might even start SOUNDING like Greenspan, though of
course he'd still make more sense.

Bob Landis says he wants to come as the International
Monetary Fund, which is fine with the rest of us, as long
as he takes the part seriously and picks up all the bills
and sends them to American taxpayers. But don't worry
-- I've promised not to do that Ethel Merman thing again.

So please consider joining GATA in New Orleans this
year. Register for the conference and make your travel
arrangements soon. Let's meet, learn, invest wisely,
support the golden cause, and have a good time. Gold
and silver bugs have earned it.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

[Edit]

"The Gold Wars".......A Shot Back At Them!!! -- beesting, 14:11:22 09/03/03 Wed

This article just arrived:
(Snip)
Click Here For Reuters Article

World Bank sees gold price falling, nickel strong
Wed September 3, 2003 01:02 PM ET
WASHINGTON, Sept 3 (Reuters) - The World Bank forecast on Wednesday the gold price, trading around $370 an ounce, should fall below $300 an ounce as new, low-cost mines
are started and producers slow the rate they've
been buying gold back to unwind price protection contracts.

Gold stormed from around $250 an ounce lows last year, reaching a 6-1/2 year high at $388.50 in February as the U.S. dollar fell and threats of war against Iraq grew.

But the bank said gold's rise should weaken over the medium-term.

"Over the medium-term prices are expected to fall below $300 an ounce as supplies from all sources exceed demand," the World Bank said in a Global Economic Prospects report.

"Even below $300/oz, mine production is expected to continue to increase moderately as new low-cost operations come on stream," it said.
The World Bank also said key for the gold
price was whether central bankers renegotiate a
1999 European Central Bank Gold Sales Agreement to limit their gold sales.
(Unsnip)
Reprinted under the Fair Use doctrine of
international copyright law.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

Critique:
Let's go over a few points that our friend above, who was probably coached by Charlie Brown of the Peanuts comic strip fame, failed to mention in his astute observation of the "future" Price Of Gold.

1. The article was released at 1:02 P.M. eastern time...28 minutes before the close of COMEX......After a day in which Gold rallied a few dollars......Which tells me "The World Bank" and The Powers That Be are REALLY worried about the current price rises in Gold, as they are being "BEATEN" in their efforts to hold the POG down by the buyers of Gold.(Demand for Gold is exceeding supply, therefore driving the price up)

2. He also failed to mention that the Chinese, who are now becoming prosperous thru international trade surpluses, are now allowed to "OWN" Gold in all it's shapes and forms. Some experts predict the Chinese 1.3 billion strong may at some point consume as much Gold annually, or more than India's 1 billion[?], who currently consume up to 850 tonnes in a year.( More than the combined total of the 2 largest producing countries.....USA & South Africa who produce well under 800 tonnes annually)

3. In my opinion, the combined "Digital Gold Currencies" who hold physical Gold in storage for "Private" owners, the newly created stock share Gold funds that hold Gold in storage for shareholders( Which have the potential to store "massive" amounts of Gold), and the companies that offer Gold/Silver as a backing of shares(Central Fund of Canada & some mutual funds and some Gold mining companies[Goldcorp/Iamgold]) are also going to substantially "INCREASE" the demand and consumption of Gold.

4. Also, the "political" reasons why many people worldwide may not take too kindly to supporting the U.S. dollar as a world currency and may switch assets to Gold.

5. Our friend above(let's call him Charlie Brown) also fails to acknowledge the figures published by "Goldfields mineral resources, & The World Gold Council" who state that current world Gold production is under 2500 annual tonnes, and falling, and current Gold consumption is over 4000 tonnes, and rising. This does NOT add up to an "over" supply of physical Gold. Of course GATA personnel have shown where, contracts for Gold far,far, exceeds amounts that are available for delivery & the whole financial system as we now know it could collapse if only a few of the "paper" holders of Gold demand delivery.

In summary, let's take what Charlie Brown has just said above with a huge a wait and see attitude because unless he just happens to already know exactly what's in store at the IMF conference in Dubai(A threat of "war"......if "we" don't get our way).........He's "Wrong" on all counts!!!

Thanks For Reading.........beesting.

[Edit]

Zontal, defined... -- Flinter, 11:18:03 09/03/03 Wed

...by Kipling.

“If” by Rudyard Kipling

If You can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't talk too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!''

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a man, my son!

Thanks Rudy,
Flinter

[Edit]

@ ASE & verticle -- flinter, 08:58:30 09/03/03 Wed

Hi ASE,

Please don't call me "Sir". As far as I know, the only "knighted" individual here is IronHead ;-)

Vertical=Hierarchical
Horizontal (zontal) = ? The opposite, I guess.

Those terms have been bandied around much here abouts and likely mean slightly different things to different posters. My take on them is decidedly philosophical.

Maybe others will pipe in with their interpretation.

Anyhow, the terms are widely used here-abouts.

But the Philosophical side is not too prevalent here, most are concerned with the "Gold Wars", not realizing that if they win that war, but lose the Philosophical War...they've lost both.

That to, is an old story.

This is bit presumptuous, but generally true...me thinks.

Then again, flinter is is a good bit presumptuous. So apply salt liberally.

Maybe I should use it as my handle. Hey, how about "PhiloUmtous"?

Best,
Flinter

[Edit]

auspec and c2b -- Wolfgang, 08:25:03 09/03/03 Wed

Hello friends,

I just read the GE essay of Florian on Bralorne. Amazingly he lines up in the hall of fame among gold bugs under a variety of well reputated gold writers. Congratulations, but it shows how small the gold community still is, despite the rising interest in this sector worldwide.
The sentiment in this sector is IMO too strong bullish at the moment. The last days I sold off a huge portion of my gold and silver stocks with tremendous profit. Perhaps too early, but harvest was made. I feel better now to sit on cash and not to engage anywhere except to buy coins and bullion on retracements as a savings plan. I expect a massive drop in the stock market in the coming months and I even won`t hold on gold stocks or bonds in such an environment. But, I will buy again anytime later.

Best wishes
and greetings to c2b

[Edit]

Flinter -- All Seeing Eye, 07:07:03 09/03/03 Wed

Sir Flinter,

The written language is awkward for me - for reading and expressing - for the very reason you gave. The intent of my thoughts are most often lost without the sound of the words or the visual characterization of facial and bodily expression.
I write rarely for those reasons.

I am in agreement with you that individual egalitarians exist, and I knew that some of our native brothers had as close to a pure society of egalitarianism as any society, but I did not know that they had fully accomplished it. I feel very fortunate that I have been able to dispose of some of the lies and halftruths I learned in school.

When you use the word "vertical", I take it to mean a rigidity. If I am wrong, please correct me.

I am most grateful for your reply.

Living to learn,
ASE

[Edit]

New Big Show -- volavka, 06:02:11 09/03/03 Wed

Total trading range, daily:

Shows extreme high and low for the day. (96%)

[Edit]

Murray & mr v -- auspec, 04:32:59 09/03/03 Wed

Thanks

[Edit]

@ASE & "Do they Really Exist?" -- Flinter, 03:40:13 09/03/03 Wed

My intent was to support your position (which I understood).

Don't express myself well, do I?

Why didn't I?

Symbols (language) & symbol systems (ideology & methodogogy) are blunt instruments...used to attempt to express an elegant, infinitely complex and changing Reality.

Which is impossible.

That is why the very fabric of the Universe and of life is based upon decentralized, self-correcting, "non-systemlike" Systems. Sharing "thought" & information at a very basic, non-verbal level. It is Inside (of you).

Any use of symbols or symbol system rapidly become useless... unless constantly validated by the separate, independent "units". Whatever "edge" they had...is lost..and looses what validity it had.

And the verticle moves in.

In other words, what we call egalitarianism, is built into the fabric of the universe.

Do Egalitarian human individuals really exist?

Yes, they do. They're out there. Isolated. Living Real lives; creating, loving, growing, evolving, maturing as individuals. As thier creator intended.

They (individual egalitarians) can, but try to increase their numbers. But only by sharing their truth and by their living example. Never by Force...which would turn them into their antithisis.

...and once again, the verticle moves in.

Can egalitarian societies really exist?

Yes, the Iroqois (& Native Americans) proved it.

Which is what made them so "DANGEROUS".

Can't have "THAT" in our history books now...can we?

Best,
Flinter

[Edit]

Snow job -- volavka, 02:52:31 09/03/03 Wed

Look close and you will see the gold stars dancing with wolves.(snowhead)

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059479520640&p=1012571727313

[Edit]

Biotech -- volavka, 02:44:31 09/03/03 Wed

Run for fun both physical and mental.

HiHat:

cypt possible buyout.
D.D.

[Edit]

Auspec -- Flanigan, 02:40:20 09/03/03 Wed

Guy played for the bears.
Color the river green, alot of Notre Dame floating around the Windy city.

No I do not follow him but yes the crb has turned and it will continue up.
U all must look out farther than short term. This new investment cycle is all long term.

Short term day traders will chase (morgan) the mkt.
Think long term. Think 4x's the 70's pm mkts.
Think dividends as physical gold paid by rock solid wealth companies for long term foundation.

Do not be deceived by the lying/cheating general public bull shit pumped out each day by the stupid media.

Metals now: + day marking time sideways to up for major assult run.

[Edit]

Flinter -- All Seeing Eye, 20:39:09 09/02/03 Tue

Sir Flinter,

Agreed.

My post was to give proof that the Founding Fathers were putting into history that the government of USA was NOT founded on Christianity as we hear so often today (i.e., display of Ten Commandments, Bible reading in school, etc. to reinforce the purpose of their Christian act.)

Does pure egalitarianism really exist on this planet?

Never sleeping,
ASE

[Edit]

Auspec -- Netking, 19:42:56 09/02/03 Tue

Rusty, James Flanagan & his market calls [incl PM's] from January, 2001.
http://www.consensus-inc.com/01999si/spec-rep/0101spl-niir.htm

[Edit]

@ Mr. Eye && "Christian Nation" -- Flinter, 19:33:46 09/02/03 Tue

Hello Sir.

The overwhelming source of ideas for the Founding Fathers and, more importantly, the common people was the Iroquois Confederation.

Of much less importance, practically speaking, were the Enlightenment thinkers...who themselves adopted the ideas, influences, and attitudes brought back by the so called crusaders from the middle east. The, so called, western Enlightenment was an imported event.

Christianity was strictly Anti-egalitarian. At least the "church" was.

As important as the Enlightenment was, as far as American history is concerned...it pales in significance to the Native American influence. Imagine a people totally alien to any concept of individual freedom...now imagine those peoples witnessing and interacting with a (native) people who had lived those principles for hundreds or thousands of years.

What a profound & personal impact it must have had!

Without the Iroquois (and certainly not limited to them but including all Native peoples who shared egalitarianism to s surprising extent) the colonists would not have had the slightest idea what the terms liberty or freedom might mean in an efficacious sense.

You needn't look elsewhere for the source of liberty.

Likely, this is the most whitewashed fact in American History...perhaps world history. And for good reason! It was a fearful threat to the vertical constructs of Europe.

And that fear wasn't limited to Europe's authoritarians...it was shared by the vertical "authorities" in the New World. It was a profound threat to them... the reality of their New World subjects just "walking away" to join a better, more egalitarian culture was real, very real.

Another reason the Native Americans were so hated by the vertical... and had to "go".

http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/FF.html
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/EoL/

But one needn't depend on just a couple links. Any reading of the journals of folks like Jefferson & Franklin...to mention just a couple of "headlines", will bear this out. Also, this can be validated by a pedagogic review of many, many journals kept during and before that period. Even pre-20th century history books will validate this fact...though you have to "read between the lines" by looking past prejudice and questioning the inconsistencies in those texts. The gaps are there.

This is the kind of research that does not, however, increase chances for a Doctoral Thesis or tenure.

"Gone to Croatan",
Flinter

[Edit]

mr v & All re "Past-Present-Futures" -- auspec, 18:05:08 09/02/03 Tue

I receive a promo copy of James Flanigan's newsletter based on the cyclical work of Gann periodically and always enjoy them. He's currently calling for a omce in a lifetime bull market in gold silver and CRB based on 30 and 60 year time cycles. Works for me!

Any thoughts as to the track record of this newsletter?

[Edit]

@HBM -- dotti, 18:01:53 09/02/03 Tue

Many, many thanks for the informational explanation regarding the Japanese banking situation.

Wow! Seems like Snow may have been exaggerating a bit regarding the write-off of bad debt. Didn't look too impressive to me, based on your figures.

I think that a huge problem with debt here in the good ol us of a is that the deriviatives issue gave people a false sense of security. Thought that no problem if a loan or two falls through the cracks. Then. No due diligence.

I'm tired. Can't focus.

Wanted to thank you, though for the excellent answer to my query.

dotti

[Edit]

USA - Christian Nation? -- All Seeing Eye, 17:47:40 09/02/03 Tue

On tv, this forum, radio, personal conversations, church, political discussions, etc., I hear over and over about our Founding Fathers were men who based our government on Christianity.

Please refer to the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11. Written by Joel Barlow and unanimously passed by Congress and signed by President John Adams in 1797.

Art. 11 As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility of Mussulmeni and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption between the two countries.

Now, what is the disagreement about whether or not we were founded on Christianity considering the words agreed to by our Founding Fathers?

[Edit]

Hussein Family Tree -- mini, 17:24:29 09/02/03 Tue

Hussein Family Tree

Now that Uday & Qusay have been eliminated,
a lot of the lesser-known family members are
coming to the attention of American authorities.

Among the brothers:

Sooflay ..................the restauranteur

Guday................... the half-Australian brother

Huray.................... the sports fanatic

Bejay......................the gay brother

Kuntay &Kintay.....the twins from the African mother

Sayhay....................the baseball player

Ojay........................the stalker / murderer

Gulay......................the singer / entertainer

Ebay.......................the internet czar

Biliray......................the country music star

Ecksray...................the radiologist

Puray.......................the blender factory owner

Regay......................the half-Jamaican brother

Tupay......................the one with bad hair:

Among the sisters:

Pusay.......................the 'loose' 22 yr old

Lattay........................the coffee shop owner

Bufay.........................the 300 pound sister

Dushay......................the clean sister

Phayray.....................the zoo worker in the gorilla house:

Sapheway..................the grocery store owner:

Ollay..........................the half-mexican sister:

Gudlay........................the prostitute:

More will no doubt be discovered.

END {Most fortunately}

[Edit]

Me Ole Austrian Buddy......... -- auspec, 16:44:56 09/02/03 Tue

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/riedl-riedenstein090303pv.html

Snippet:

So where can you possibly find the next "Goldcorp." ?

Probably in a "setup" or better environment, which is similar to McEwan's success story. The main ingredients being a known mining camp, which was largely underexplored in its heydays of past production. A dedicated entrepreneur sniffing around the old workings and feeling that the area has a lot of additional potential. Potential, which may have stayed hidden by methods used just a generation ago. New technology and advances in geological interpretation, as well as huge leaps in mining and milling opened some of the old timers bonanza's to renewed interest.
END

Comment: Interesting mining story re BPN, in which I do own shares. Fair use, full disclosure.....all copascetic. No harm no foul.

[Edit]

Contest -- Questioner, 06:57:31 09/02/03 Tue

Many thanks!

[Edit]

while u wait for au/ag -- volavka, 06:57:27 09/02/03 Tue

watch cypt run>...............................
.12 was free money

[Edit]

dotti -- Netking, 04:54:55 09/02/03 Tue

How can banks afford to write off debt? Doesn't it wreak havoc with their balance sheets?

Yes & no. Whilst Japan has finally started tackling its banking crisis, the top banks are still facing an uncertain future, believe it! Good lenders should make a good credit investigation before undertaking to lend to ensure they will get the loan back. That being the case many loans do not get paid back for a number of reasons, that is a problem to the whole system. In the case of Japan over $300 billion in non-performing loans [loans on which the borrowers, including some of Japan's largest corporations, are not able to make payments] are on the books.

To help facilitate the process the Bank of Japan has purchased some bank stock as a means of bolstering the banking industry of Japan, but is now wanting affirmative action by the banks who have been reluctant to act.

If the bad/non-performing loans are not cleaned out & provisioned the whole system will slow down....constipation of the fiat kind. Japanese banks won't lend much new money until they have cleared the books of their existing bad debt, and the economy won't grow until lending resumes etc. Banks are still drowning in bad debt. The government had to more or less order them to write off some of their non-performing loans. They delayed that as long as they could, in part because they own stock in companies that could go bankrupt if their loans are called in, and so it goes on.

As an example of how large this crisis still is, Japan's biggest banking group, Mizuho Financial Group has trimmed its outstanding bad loans to 4.68 trillion yen ($39.18 billion) at June 30 2003, down from 4.79 trillion yen ($40.11 billion) at March 31....still a massive contingent liability! You may recall also that Mizuho had a 2.377 trillion yen ($20.3 billion) loss for 2002-03, the worst result in Japanese corporate history, oops.

Huge losses on their share portfolios, a major portion of their paper assets along with the bad/non-performing loans ensure no "quick fix" anytime soon in the Japanese banking system, but rather suggests the patient is still on life support & financial critical care . . . waiting . . . waiting for recovery.

[Edit]

Follow the shells -- volavka, 03:17:46 09/02/03 Tue

Not sea shells but the shell game.

Where's the pea? pea brain .

There it isn't.

Stay focused as they try to force metals down.
You cannot strengthin the weak by weaking the strong.

Gold nose (knows). Can you smell the color of my wind?

[Edit]

THE SILVER RAIDERS -- Netking, 02:25:45 09/02/03 Tue

http://www.silver-investor.com/raiders.htm

[Edit]

Beesting re: FOA and Another -- Cor Tauri, 00:40:55 09/02/03 Tue

I think it was Another who spoke of gold being repriced once in his lifetime. FOA seemed to speak more of an evolving wealth asset, which would be held for generations. To me this implied a constant upward repricing.
I remember the food fights at kitco. I did not "believe" Another, but I was not impressed by the abuse that was hurled at him. This was all in 1998 or 1999 and at that time I was very much a Y2K believer and turned my focus to preparing for teotwawki. In short I missed Another saying he would represent a country at such a discussion. He might well be there. Both he and FOA seemed very much to be "verts" in that they seemed very much for adjusting the current system rather than scrapping it totally as some here have suggested would be possible. Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that Another and FOA almost certainly are or were very highly respected economists who moved back and forth between academic careers and national or international advisory posts. Yes, I think Another was deep enough, high enough that he might be in Dubai for the IMF conference. In fact I want very much to post who I think he is, but that would serve no purpose. FOA, well flat out I think he is a respected economist and most here already know his name and have read his writings. I believe that both were westerners, although Another did an excellent job of presenting an Arab perspective. This was probably useful in helping people focus on the fact that the oil producers and the house of Saud in particular are really very important players.

So much of what Another suggested has happened. The US pullout from Saudi Arabia, I think he hinted at something of that nature at a time when such an idea seemed so improbable. Other things too.

[Edit]

Current POG & POS & U$D Live Price -- CHARTs, 23:36:09 09/01/03 Mon

[Edit]

Contest...what contest? -- Flinter, 22:04:17 09/01/03 Mon

(just kidding)

Hi All!

And congratulations to:
HBM
beesting
Questioner

Been pretty busy these days, but did see Questioner's entry a couple weeks ago...and thought it was flat out awesome.

And seeing the company he is with, more of the same, I'm sure.

Got some reading to do... I do!

...............

Caught this from Greespan last week (or whenever he performed last)

"Uncertainty is not just an important feature of the monetary policy landscape; it is the defining characteristic of that landscape."

Gee...I wonder if Allen was visited by his Faerie Slime Mold...err...I mean Mother.

Guy might be catching on.

Nahhh.

Best to all the gang,
Flinter

[Edit]

Thank You Auspec.....And Cor Tauri. -- beesting, 21:29:42 09/01/03 Mon

Auspec, Rex, ThaiGold, & Bounxai, Thanks so much for reading my continous drivel and allowing us to post here. We Watch Gold/Silver Together, and the Gold excitement sure seems to be building, for me. Over the last few years I feel I have really recieved a tremendous education by reading as much as time allows of the rest of the fine posters shared words & thoughts.
Please picture a deep bow to "EVERYONE" who posts from beesting.

Cor Tauri, I seem to remember those words also.....Were they the words of ANOTHER posted at Kitco long ago? Or FOA?

I also remember ANOTHER replying to someone who was not too kind to him in a post at Kitco, that he would be "Representing" a country when the world "Price Of Gold" was being discussed.
Do you think ANOTHER could possibly be at the coming IMF conference in Dubai?

Just Something Else To Speculate About.......beesting.

[Edit]

****** Contest Winners ****** Please Contact Me.. -- WebMaster: Rex, 21:14:29 09/01/03 Mon

EagleRanch thanks all those who entered the ER/Auspec "Gold Charade Contest".

And special thanks to Auspec for suggesting and handling all the details.

Our Congratulations, of course, to the three winners Auspec chose:

HBM
beesting
Questioner

Each winner will receive one of the three 1 Troy oz .999 Silver Rounds
donated by ER as the prizes. Those are currently in Auspec's vault, so
he will be postal mailing them to you. He will need a valid US Postal
address where you each want your Silver Round to be delivered.

Please contact me with the address you prefer. I'll check that your
IP matches the IP of the winning post(s) to be sure it's "you". Then
I will forward your prefered postal address info to Auspec.

Names and Postal Address info will be used one-time-only; for that
purpose only; by Auspec, and will be kept strictly confidential.

Please use ONLY the Link shown below, to contact me:

Contact_WebMaster:_Rex

Thanks again, everyone who participated in the Contest.

..Rex

[Edit]

beesting re: your thoughts -- Cor Tauri, 20:09:45 09/01/03 Mon

you wrote:
In my humble opinion, the meeting in Dubai could be where the "Powers That Be" are simply "negotiating" an "equable" worldwide price......And since some of the larger oil producing nations are Arab controlled.....And could easily destroy the "value" of the IMF mandated U.S. dollar-for-oil current relationship, a compromise "must" be worked out......To prevent further bloodshed in the Mid-East region, for one thing.

Your post reminds me of the statement made by someone else, "Gold will be repriced once in my lifetime." Your post also explains better than the other person did, why and how gold could be repriced only once in a long period of time.

Of course it may not happen the way you suggest, but I suspect your line of reasoning is close to the thoughts of the other poster. And for the first time I understand how it could be as he suggested.

Best Regards

[Edit]

Sinclair Calls the Signals on Gold Shares -- auspec, 18:17:08 09/01/03 Mon

Snippets:

The Gold Community can frustrate the cartel's professional market makers in the exact manner it recently killed the cartel on its short position. Last Thursday, the cartel tried to run Comex futures bulls by hitting the level where stops were expected to be. Each time nothing happened so all the cartel did was increase its short position. The end result was a panic run for cover on Friday and today in non US markets.

Now if you made optimum sales - or in a reaction simply stopped looking at the quotes - you would be amazed how the price structure of gold shares would remain strong.Because people practiced this in 1979-1980, the price of gold shares were higher when gold recovered from $450 to $725 than at $887.50. Think about that and you will see how such a strategy executed individually by Community members would end the cartel manipulation of share prices.

We beat the gold traders last week. We have beaten the ratio trade. Do as I suggest and we will end the manipulation of gold shares and the 8-week cycle dead in its tracks. COT is a fraud that became a self-fulfilling prophecy. You just proved that the biggest boobs in the gold trading business are the commercials unless they are able to bamboozle you.

Now you can get this bull market into gear without interruption by burying the professional market makers. I used to be a professional market maker myself and believe me I know what I am talking about.

Post this article on every chat board and every gold site that will accept it. Tell your friends how to finally defang the cartel and ask them to tell their friends. The Gold Community flexed its muscles last week and took the commercials out. Now flex your muscles in the shares and watch what happens. It is simple! Curtail margin, get optimum sales or do not sell at all.
END

http://www.jsmineset.com/s/Home.asp

[Edit]

GATA/Turk -- gata, 14:51:39 09/01/03 Mon

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

GATA consultant James Turk, editor of the Freemarket
Gold & Money Report and founder of GoldMoney, has
a new commentary at the latter's Internet site. Turk
says the dollar gold price is about to rise substantially
to catch up with the pace of dollar creation -- and
because what he calls the Fear Index is rising.

You can find Turk's commentary here:

http://goldmoney.com/

Then click on "Read James' Comments" in the
"Founder's Commentary" box at the top left of the
GoldMoney home page.

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

[Edit]

@All -- dotti, 14:48:10 09/01/03 Mon

Now that the contest is over—and congratulations to the very deserving winners—I would like to present another idea for examination.

Obviously, China could take us out economically. The only reason that they are not doing so is that they feel that the benefits to them are much greater for “playing nice”. Japan, also, has gone out on a limb to support the dollar because it benefits their economy to be able to export to us, even though all they get in return is more and more fiat. The Euro Zone hasn’t done a lot to help support the dollar, but I suspect that they have refrained from doing things that would mightily harm the dollar—in many cases, selling gold or making announcements to keep the POG from sinking the US$. Many other nations are in a similar situation: they derive prosperity from our prosperity.

The big boyz—that is the ones that are visible, not the true PTB who operate in the shadows—have their various meetings and deals are made on the table and under the table. The rest of us are kept in the dark—they tell us what they want us to hear, ignoring or drowning out competing voices such as GATA.

For the past 50 or so years, things have been pretty much under control. Minor bleeps, like Nixon defaulting on the convertibility of the US$ to gold, were relatively minor. The IMF came in declaring that settlements between nations could not take place in gold—only in Special Drawing Rights (SDRs). In this way, the initial step was taken to demonetize gold. I believe that the Big Boyz—again, one level below the true PTB—were convinced that they would be able to convince “the masses” that gold was a barbarous relic. Fiat could be used as a shell game to redistribute wealth. And so it has. Mightily!

Getting back to the original topic, we have an extremely complex geopolitical economic picture right now. This is a poker game of immense proportions. Nobody wants to “knock off” the US. The US is the cash cow of sorts. If the US economy goes into the crapper, there will be consequences worldwide. Everyone knows this.

However, the US is basically ripping off the rest of the world. I don’t think that other nations are entirely willing to participate in our PAX United States, i.e., pay tribute to the US in the form of holding US$ in reserve and selling gold into the market for the benefit of the US$.

How long can this continue?

Maybe the other players are all trying to secure somewhat better positions relative to one another. Manufacturing was removed from the US. Now IT jobs are leaving the US. (I called Dell Tech Support and the voice on the other end of the line was in Manila, Philippines. He was extremely courteous, patient, and knowledgeable—and his English was excellent!)

Do you get the feeling that wealth is being redistributed?

Except for its military might, the US is being gutted. We will be left with a big shell of an economy. Our wonderful “service economy” that was at the heart of the “productivity marvel” will have nothing left to offer. IBM is now shipping high level executives overseas. And why not?

The only thing we have left to offer is the American consumer.

At some point, somebody is gonna go for their gun. And. I believe that the “gun” in this instance is going to be gold.

The world is awash in dollars. If any one of our “trading partners” decides to cash out—exchange dollars for anything else: another currency, gold, euro-based assets, oil, anything—I think that it will be a tsunami.

Which country will start the flow? What event will provide the catalyst that will take the dollar down the drain? When will this occur?

Several years ago, I saw a theory that I thought had some merit. The oil producing nations don’t really care about the POO in dollars. What they negotiated in the 70’s was the POO in gold. Not necessarily in the day-to-day prices, but over the long term, they want gold in exchange for their oil. I don’t think that the Arab nations would be too unhappy if the dollar crashed.

Of course, China has no love for us. They have been able to use us almost as much as we have used the rest of the world. They have built a very strong manufacturing base. What do they have to gain from us now?

Russia. Russia went through a crash, but seems to be recovering nicely. They are accumulating gold. Do they want to keep adding to their dollar reserves when they sell their oil? Why would they?

Many of the so-called “developing nations” have been ravaged by our banking system, the IMF, and the rest of the politico-economic bullies basically enslaving the people. Don’t you think they’d love to see us have to take some of our own medicine?

If gold is not stopped—and many of us are wondering about that right now—it would seem to me that the dollar is toast. This is an all or nothing situation for AG&Co.

The issue is not so much the POG as it is the PO$. At some point, there will be a “point of no return” and from there the US will be in free fall. Not just the dollar, but the entire country.

HBM has some good insights. FEMA already has the right to legally conscript citizens to work, not only in their home area, but to also relocate citizens for this purpose. If the dollar crashes, FEMA will be brought in to save us all. Martial law? Probably. Outlaw possession of gold? Maybe.

What will Americans do for a living?

Okay. After all my rambling—and, BTW, auspec, thanks for your much enjoyed and appreciated “ramblings”—the question is: Is the climbing POG the event that will crash the dollar and is it beginning now? Is everybody going to try to get on the train before it leaves the station?

Opinions?

dotti

[Edit]

@Netking -- dotti, 13:15:53 09/01/03 Mon

Re: dotti -- Netking, 11:23:35 09/01/03 Mon

Thanks. I'm trying to understand this.

Netking: "get rid of" bad debt....not suddenly enforcing the borrowers repayment thereof to remove it [if they were able] but rather provision for it in full accounts of the bank/lender.

dotti: Is this how it works? If AG owes me $1,000, that would be an asset on my books and a liability on his. If he was unable to pay me, it would be a "non-performing loan" for me. If I say to AG, okay. you can't pay me. how about you give me $50 in full settlement of the debt. I show the $50 as a cash entry, but write off the other $950. Is that how it works? You can probably tell, I never took accounting 101.

How can banks afford to write off debt? Doesn't it wreak havoc with their balance sheets?

Netking: Also changes of banking procedure/lending policy/ratios can reduce future exposure. Over-valuation of assets has been ANOTHER problem in Japan in their banks balance sheets . . . highly inflated share prices have formed the basis of asset valuations rather than book values etc.

dotti: I suppose this is also true here. The "wealth phenomenon" convinced people that they could afford purchases based on the valuations of stocks, etc. It seems to be carried on in the RE market. Are our banking policies/ratios, etc., better than Japan's? It would surprise me if they were. We're not timid about rapping anyone's knuckles, are we?

I can see that once the loss is taken, then the company that was strapped with debt can perhaps have a fighting chance of regaining economic stability. Is it working in Japan?

TIA, dotti

[Edit]

ER Gold Quashing {Attempt} ****Contest Winners******** -- auspec, 13:08:12 09/01/03 Mon

****CONTEST****

I want to thank each one of you that took the time to present your ideas about gold-quashing to the rest of us here @ ER. Clearly, some of us have high qualifications for Government work……………smile. "ER Special-Op Monetary Fraud Unit". It is most gratifying to see so many entries as it looked for a while like this was going to be the Auspec Blathering-On Kontest……thanks for rescuing me, however, I’m gonna blather on anyway………….It’s what I do best. ANOTHER “ROUND” of thanks to ER non-management for providing the vehicle as well as the fantastic prizes for this contest!
Thanks!

All entries, each and every one, showed knowledge and imagination. It was VERY difficult to just pick three {seriously}. Nice job all!!

The following posters are to be congratulated for their winning entries:

*****HBM*****

*****beesting*****

*****Questioner*****

Please forward an address to Rex so as to receive your prizes.

If you don't mind I would like to further frame this ER Contest because it is so easy to misunderstand it as a gold bearish issue.........when in fact it is NOT! I would like to include some personal thoughts and ideas on this same topic.............OK?

The premise for this contest, some 3 to 4 weeks ago was that gold was generating entirely too much excitement and was threatening, once again, to break free of its official sector management. Crunch time had arrived, in the summer no less, and SOMETHING would have to be done to put the damper on the building enthusiasm. In the time since the contest began absolutely nothing has happened to alter this scenario………in fact we are building up to an even more threatening crescendo as is now patently obvious to all. CRIMEX Spec longs are at extreme highs, the Elliot Wave Boys aren’t far from joining in on the fun, gold stocks are flying high in anticipation, MIDAS is “dancing” in his latest commentary, and Sinclair is looking at a possible 30 year top in the bond market. Gold doesn’t just threaten to enrich its proponents it threatens to expose the ongoing fraud in the much larger markets of the world………especially those centered out of the New York/DC/London axis of fiat. Not good if you’re a monetary policy wonk.

In spite of the fact that this topic has been both appropriate as well as timely………one gets the feeling that our subject matter is almost TABOO. Not allowed to look at gold from this particular perspective………only unbiased LONGS can come to the table, no skunks invited to the garden party! Hogwash, I say to that. The current euphoria in the gold arena is what makes the participants so prone to an ensuing disappointment. EVERYBODY is calling for $400 and higher POG and this is the time of maximum VULNERABILITY for gold bugs. Best to know your enemy and his tactics and be prepared to counter the coming moves. He tries to turn us from greed to fear but is more likely to evoke the “best medicine”……………LAUGHTER. I’m ready, so are you, but the weak hands need a little more work most likely. Of course, there’s not as many weak hands these days as in the past. Part of what Sinclair is trying to do, whatever you might think of him, is to create more market discipline amongst the gold players. Not a bad idea.

This contest arose out of a simple question: “What are ‘they’ likely to do next…….” To be perfectly honest with you, I have been very happy, for most of the contest period, to not have to be answering this question myself. It is a tough question from our perspective because there is so little they CAN do to deceive us any more, at least not the strong hands amongst us. Those days are gone and they’ve played damn near every trump card. They just announced Greek official gold sales and the gold market interpreted that correctly and continued higher. They’ll have to do MUCH better than that! On the other hand, the more one thinks about this topic, the more one realizes that the AEGC {Atheistic Elitist Global Collectivists} are really not smart enough to simply give up. They have the numerous incompetent organizations at their disposal {IMF, cia, Fed, Treasury, & Neo-conned Think Tanks for a few examples} who make a living thinking up stupid ideas to thrust upon the public. It is a bottomless barrel of ideas………so we might as well face them. The Jackson {arse} Hole Boyz just met over this last weekend and there are IMF meetings coming up this month, September, in Dubai. There are talks of an update in the Washington Agreement coinciding with the IMF meeting. Don’t ya just think that gold might just be on {under} the table during both of these events? Maybe? Strong hands will soon be laughing, imh&so.

There have been some ideas that have come to me during these last couple of weeks as to what might just be heading our way in the category of gold containment. Just for the record, I am extremely bullish on gold, I think ‘their’ desperation shows, and I don’t think they can hold back the tide for long. This is not a gold bearish exercise. You will also note that EVERY contest entry is STILL bullish on gold {correct?}. Gold IS going higher regardless of coming shenanigans or policies.

I will first quote a couple paragraphs out of David Guyatt’s “Project Hammer Reloaded” {fair use} as it relates to “Black Gold “ issues:

“The assets in question were a vast hoarde of gold and lesser quantities of platinum- plus not inconsiderable volumes of loose gemstones—that had been grabbed by the Nazi’s and the Japanese during WW2. Large volumes of this loot found their way to the Philippines where they were hidden in numerous treasure sites by the Japanese occupiers who planned to recover them after the war.”

“But it didn’t quite work out the way the Japanese planned. They lost the war along with the Philippines that, it seems, they were fairly confident they would be allowed to keep in a negotiated truce with the Allies {auspec……….so much for negotiation}. In their place the OSS—the wartime forerunner of America’s spy agency the Central Intelligence Agency {CIA}, began recovering the bullion plundered from a dozen or so nations.”

“This bullion formed what became known as the “Black Eagle” fund, which was part of a secret agreement eclipsed behind the 1944 Bretton Woods Agreement {auspec……!!!!!!!}. Consequently, the metal was placed under the care of OSS {and later CIA} operative, Severino Garcia Santa Romano, who put it under the control of numerous corporate entities he formed for the purpose. These entities, in turn, proceeded to establish 176 bank accounts in 42 different countries in which to deposit these assets under private treaty agreement.”
END

Here’s another quote from Allex Wallenwein in his article, ‘Gold is Breaking Free” at GE:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/wallenwein090103pv.html

“The IMF is a creature of the 1945 Bretton Woods conference that established the dollar-reserve system based on the then-existing international ‘gold-exchange standard’. It somehow survived the collapse of the Bretton-Woods system in the late 1970’s and continued to expand its influence even after Nixon abrogated the gold-exchange standard in ’71.”
END

Here’s my take on this gold suppression issue, if I might:

Key words………Black Gold, Bretton Woods, IMF, CIA, Secret & Private Treaties, Parallel Finance

May I re-introduce the term “deep storage gold” here and now {similar but different from number six’s fine entry}? Think there were any CIA bagmen in the Hole w the other Jackson Boyz? Didn’t someone {me} just post that the IMF is having international meetings in Dubai and that GOLD is to be part of the background noise? GOLD was part of the background noise in the 1945 Bretton Woods Conference as well?

Gold was front and center with the LTCM crisis in spite of official denials. The “Gold Derivative Banking Crisis”, as termed by the GATA group, IS big enough to topple the big show. It is currently under way with cracks showing everywhere one looks……interest rates, bonds, POG, Debt, etc. If you think for one iota of a millisecond that gold was not on the table in Jackson Hole by these International MFers…………you are too naïve to be a gold owner, sorry. In that same article by Wallenwein the IMF projects the coming depreciation of the US Dollar {They ARE the US Dollar!!}. That's like hearing Coke say they plan on watering down their product! Don't ya just know they can do it? These wise ones have only CONTAINMENT as a viable option from here on. Decades of reckless and stupid policies are coming full circle.

Some more keywords:

Quid Pro Quo

Can you see it at the coming Dubai Conference……………”I’ll give you what’s on top of this table if you’ll give me what’s underneath that table”. The US is gonna have to give a lot because they’re right at the breaking point monetarily and economically, thanks to years of official folly. The Euro is poised to continue to benefit from its 15% gold window dressing. I wonder if they might just back down a little on their gold policies if they were allowed to share in reserve currency status or oil pricing? The quid pro quo and EVERYTHING is on or under the table…………smile. This was part and parcel of HBM’s winning contest entry as he brought Israel and the Middle East into the picture. Let’s look for clues REAL closely over the coming 6 or so weeks as to how this will all work out.

In the end………the battle lines are now drawn tightly, gold enthusiasm is growing by the week. We approach endgame as the cascade of derivatives don’t have that much leeway. Gold has NOT been allowed to progress past such a point as RIGHT NOW for many, many years. This is the time to be wary & disciplined, not overly controlled by either greed or fear. Be the strong hands! The victory is ours for the taking.

Couple more comments. I wrote my above piece prior to reading beesting’s late post. He’s somehow tapped into my mind--- that’s dangerous.

The gold tax issue is most interesting and we will likely see it in place as mentioned by “THE DUMMIE” as well as qwerty & ducat. Gold will still fly.

The “Terrorist Issue”, “National Security”, “China factor”, “Contamination”, “Deflationary Scare”, and “New Tech” ideas are all most innovative and worthy of being included amongst the other devious ones………………smile. The terrorist angle has already been started and is simply too easy of a target for this transparent lot.

Now that we’ve flushed them out in the open and recorded in advance what we expect them to try next………………………LET’S WATCH TOGETHER!! We’ve predicted the future, unpleasant as it may be.

{Apologies for rambling on so much............this is simply a very important issue to me and many others.}

[Edit]

dotti -- Netking, 11:23:35 09/01/03 Mon

"get rid of" bad debt....not suddenly enforcing the borrowers repayment thereof to remove it [if they were able] but rather provision for it in full accounts of the bank/lender. Also changes of banking procedure/lending policy/ratios can reduce future exposure. Over-valuation of assets has been ANOTHER problem in Japan in their banks balance sheets . . . highly inflated share prices have formed the basis of asset valuations rather than book values etc.

[Edit]

Gold bull market.... -- Skeptik, 11:02:59 09/01/03 Mon

No one can stop it now...while Chinese people are buying ...

[Edit]

*****Very Late CONTEST ENTRY***** -- beesting, 10:29:38 09/01/03 Mon

The question is: How will "The Powers That Be" control the current escalating price of Gold?

Answer:
In case anyone missed it the IMF is having a meeting this month (September) in Dubai(sp)United Arab Emirates, which many say is the Gold trading capital of the world.

Could the suppression of The Price Of Gold be one of the main topics?

I think it could and there is a very simple way that it could be accomplished which has been done in the past with excellent results.

Very simply the IMF could mandate a "CAP" on the price of monetary Gold.(Numismatic Gold and jewelry would be excluded.)

The precedent was set way back when the U.S. Government set the price of Gold at $20.67 per ounce and managed to maintain that price for well over 100 years. Even when Roosevelt upped the POG to $35.00 per ounce it maintained that price from 1933 to 1971...38 years!

In my humble opinion, the meeting in Dubai could be where the "Powers That Be" are simply "negotiating" an "equable" worldwide price......And since some of the larger oil producing nations are Arab controlled.....And could easily destroy the "value" of the IMF mandated U.S. dollar-for-oil current relationship, a compromise "must" be worked out......To prevent further bloodshed in the Mid-East region, for one thing.

How would this be done?

The U.S. has the control-ing vote in the IMF affairs and also has a phrase in the U.S. Constitution which stipulates that the U.S. Government can, "regulate the value(of money)thereof, and of foriegn coin,(Gold used as money).

So, lets say a "SET" price of Gold is worked out somewhere around $450.00 per ounce.....At first everyone is happy including the long suffering Gold Hearts, Gold miners, & shareholders......But in the long run as the "Paper Money" from around the world, including U.S. dollars, continues to constantly lose value the "Mandated" POG would have to be re-set periodically(every 30 or 40 years???).With the mind-set of the people in todays world this coup on the "Free Market"[?] Price Of Gold could very easily be accomplished!!!!!

.........beesting.

*****End Of Contest!*****

I wish you guys & gals wouldn't put this over-active imagination of mine to work like this.....as who knows who could be reading these Gold chat sites and steal imaginary (POG) Gold destructive ideas.

[Edit]

@All -- dotti, 09:15:40 09/01/03 Mon

Can someone please explain to me in simple terms just what the following means?

During his meeting with Takenaka, Snow said he was pleased at the progress made by Japanese banks in getting rid of bad loans, which has been a big drag on the Japanese economy. "I was heartened, encouraged by progress on that important front."

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B40AEC135%2D83B8%2D4341%2D97B2%2D0EF7DE7A7F2C%7D&siteid=mktw

It is from an article that came up at CNBC MarketWatch:

Snow to discuss rates in China visit
Growth is the focus of meetings with Japanese officials

The gist of the article to me sounds kind of pompous and condescending--especially in view of our own economic mess. Opinions?

TIA for an explanation of how banks "get rid of" bad debt.

dotti

[Edit]

@HBM re: "Unauthorized Firearms" -- dotti, 06:41:19 09/01/03 Mon

I have been greatly troubled lately by radio ads that are running in my part of the country. At the end of this very scarey commercial, there is the acknowledgement that this ad is sponsored by my state (Alabama) and the Department of Justice of the United States.

Paraphrased: If you own an illegal gun, are thinking about helping someone get an illegal gun, or hinking about committing a crime with a gun, think twice.

You will do time, hard time, in a maximum security prison. No plea bargain, no decreased sentences, no parole, ever.

End paraphrase.

It runs longer and includes the sound of a cell door clanging. I am troubled by this because i don't think it is directed just at "criminals". I think it is part of a plan to "brainwash" Americans into being afraid to own guns and further to connect the whole idea of guns with criminals and illegal activities--sort of like cash and illegal activities have been connected.

I have a couple of weapons, inherited from my marriage, that may or may not be illegal. It is really scarey to hear the ad. I would not even want to post their names here or say them on the phone because the words could be on the list of words that would cause some guy(s) to show up at my door. I didn't think it was supposed to be that way in America?

BTW, HBM, I found your ideas regarding our future chilling, but not--unfortunately--out of line. I talk to a lot of "smart" people, but most have their heads somewhere else. It couldn't happen here. Everything is going to be okay. The debt is not a problem. Our economy is already recovering. Our markets are not manipulated. Deriviatives are layered one upon the other--how could they be "unsafe"? I think it goes beyond apathy to fantasy--Richard Russell recently did a piece on that.

I actually did not find anything in your entry that I thought was "just not possible", while most of the people that I talk to would consider it all "just too, too weird and far out." Actually, worse still, they would not consider it at all--in any fashion or at any level of consciousness.

I am concerned that with the election looming next year the Bush camp will have to pull the rabbit out of the hat. If they are unable to show a "robust economy" and the war is lingering--excuse me, that would be--the wars are ever more costly--both of which would result in an ever-greater debt load--they may need another terrorist attack. If it were "well managed", as I'm sure it would be--with fore knowledge--people may be afraid to change the status quo in the face of such danger.

What is that Benjamin Franklin quote: People who would choose security over freedom neither deserve nor will have either.

That is the America that I grew up in. Better dead than Red!

I envy that your family unit is in agreement--you, KS, and the three "revolutionary daughters". (I got a kick out of that post!) Most of the people surrounding me have been convinced of the "conspiracy theory wave of paranoia". They think that I am so far offbase that they would not even consider a conversation, much less an intellectual exchange. (Yes, querty, you probably think I should challenge them--but what is the benefit? They would be angry with me for upsetting their little applecarts.)

My friend and business partner, Bill, barely accepts my "far out" theories. He would rather not hear about it, but it's hard not to express some of the things that I think will ultimately affect our lives so dramatically. We cannot escape unscathed if HBM's scenario comes to be--but certain decisions could be made that would benefit us. His reply: "We don't know what is going to happen." Yep. I'd have to say that is correct. "We can't worry about that." Yep. I'd have to agree that living in constant fear of what life would bring--through God's will, of course--is not beneficial. But. Just thinking about what is truly happening around us and imagining where it is leading fascinates me. I suppose it is almost like driving past the fatal car crash and looking, looking, to see what one can see.

Over the weekend, I talked with a man who I think is probably fairly intelligent. He said that the economy is going to rebound; that the debt is not a problem as a percent of GDP; that the good ol' US of A is going to triumph. When I barely challenged his theory, he retreated into his faith in God.

Well. I have ultimate faith in God. But. God delegates to us to make day to day decisions in our lives. As a child, I was always puzzled by Jesus's words, be like the lilies of the field. They toil not, neither do they reap. God doesn't promise us an easy life here on earth. And. Quite frankly, I have benefitted from my travails. It is not pleasant going through such times, but they do make us stronger in the end. And. At the same time aware of our ultimate weakness relative to God.

Well. What I really wanted to ask was about timing. Do you think that in light of the coming election, there needs to be a terrorist attack? Or do we, perhaps, have more time.

Every time that I would start to pose that question, my fingers would get carried away with other ideas.

I hope everyone has a great day. If the deadline for the contest does get extended, I may want to re-do my own--which was hastened by the looming deadline last night. But. With such cogent entries, I would probably be wasting my time. Also, don't know whether that would really be fair, anyway.

Okay. Far too much rambling along...

dotti

[Edit]

*************CONTEST EXTENDED****************** -- auspec, 06:27:48 09/01/03 Mon

"@Auspec, if it's okay with you, we can extend the contest
until midnight of tomorrow.. Labor Day.. Hoping they fix it."

That works for me but ONLY until 3:00 PM E.S.T.

It's great seeing some last-hour entries! More??

[Edit]

Truth shall set u free -- volavka, 03:05:05 09/01/03 Mon

D.D.D.D.
Digital
Deception
Designed (to)
Defraud
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/bigsec.html

[Edit]

Gold -- volavka, 02:57:17 09/01/03 Mon

Memories never die.
Hope
Hepburn
Bronson

Hard Times. For those of u old enough who lived thru The Depression, if you ever rode the rails you'd enjoy Bronson in Hard Times.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/1706524.stm

[Edit]

mr Silver Aussie six pack -- number six, 23:38:30 08/31/03 Sun

Your name and location are very similar to mine. And I've been through one two many six packs myself, just lately. As for Australian silver stocks, Macmin is clearly the best one, because it is the ONLY one! Well, there are one or two others, but I don't like them much. Malachite MAL is exploring, but I fear they're looking for love in all the wrong places...not very exciting places anyhow. MAcmin owns ~10% of them anyhow. And there's Perilya PER which picked up the pieces of Pasminco at Broken Hill... which is a lovely deposit they're producing from, but it's lead and zinc dominant, so not as much silver bang for your buck.

Macmin MMN has ~40mil ounces waiting for higher prices, they did have reserves, but the Aussie dollar rise has sent them back to resources. The project was better back when silver was US$4 than it is today at US5.15. Still, they've got all the leverage you could want... their ounces per market cap ratio is pretty good. And their exploration potential is looking up. You can also buy options in Macmin, being MMNOA, which cost 1/2 as much as the MMn's and therefore give more leverage...but they've only got 2 years to run. Still, I think they are preferable to the true silver nut for now.There might be some other Aussie silver stock out there, but it's not reached my attention. There's bhp's wonderful Cannington mine - biggest silver producer in the world - but you wouldn't buy a diversified giant like bhp for silver leverage, it probably accounts for ~1% of their revenues.

[Edit]

****Test**** -- Rex, 23:20:56 08/31/03 Sun

Posting Engine Test..

Well, I had some difficulty getting this to post.
Seems a javascript glitch in the Voy.com posting engine
affecting some browser versions.

@Auspec, if it's okay with you, we can extend the contest
until midnight of tomorrow.. Labor Day.. Hoping they fix it.

..Rex

[Edit]

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU -- $hifty, 23:08:51 08/31/03 Sun

Ponzi Chart

Periodic Ponzi Update PPU

Nasdaq 1,810.45 + Dow 9,415.82 = 11,226.27 divide by 2 = 5,613 Ponzi

Up 56.04 from last week.

Thanks for the link RossL !

Go GATA!

Go GOLD!

$hifty

[Edit]

*******Contest Entry******* -- Bounxai, 22:49:20 08/31/03 Sun

Just kidding. I am not elgible to enter. But here is my guess:

The Royal Lao Engineers will shortly annunce that they
have perfected a method to extract pure .9999 gold from
Laotian Water Lilly flower. Thurty five ounces per tonne.

These pretty flowers of course, are everywhere in Laos,
on ponds and streams. And clogging our rivers. We have too
many. Soon we will have too much gold instead.

First, too much silver, extracted from Tulip Bulbs. Now too
much gold, extracted from Water Lilly. We can't win.

HRMCPBoL,IE
Translate by Sisavanh

PS: The poster engine seems not working well. If you have
problem, like I did, posting, try the posting form at the
bottom of this forum page instead. Rex may extend the deadline
if the problem doesn't fix soon.

[Edit]

********* Contest*********** -- PeterA, 22:22:30 08/31/03 Sun

JMan’s right, they've “shot their wad.” Short and CB sales are, long term. zero sum games. The only way to hold gold down now is to contaminate some of it.

If ‘They” arranged for a few delusional theologians to set off some ‘dirty’ rad-bombs outside the Franklin Mint and their Austrian and Canadian counterparts, people would be scared s%^@less to buy coins!

A pall would descend on the gold market as folks aren't going to add a Geiger Counter to their methods of checking on authenticity. specially as if it reads your already exposed.. You could get shot dead for getting within twenty yards of someone if you were brandishing a gold coin.

Hope I’m not giving any dangerous guys a bright idea that they missed. I was hesitant to post this but getting a full silver round,post-paid, from a Gold Castle stormer is irresistible. ---- “Everyone has their price.”

P.

[Edit]

You Still have Two Hours to Enter The ****Contest**** -- Rex, 22:20:48 08/31/03 Sun

What are you waiting for?

Two hours is plenty of time to write and post your thoughts about:

"What might the cartel/TPTB try next, tp quell the Price of Gold?

Auspec has three sparkling 1 Troy Oz .999 Silver Rounds from ER
to award to the three chosen co-equal winners. Auspec is the
Judge. He will announce the winners soon after the Contest
closes at midnight (ER)(Pacific Daylight) Time tonight.

Silver fer Nuthin' and the Shippin's Free..

Go for it!

..Rex

[Edit]

*******Gold Charade Contest******* -- HBM, 22:20:29 08/31/03 Sun

What gold quashing charade is most likely heading our way?

Let me preface by saying that to qualify as a quash of this gold bull market, TPTB must do more than just temporarily halt the upward thrust of POG and the downward march of the US Dollar. IMO, they must drive POG down below $330 and possibly even $300 to wipe out the long positions in Paper Gold to again take charge of the price of gold. This would also include an even stronger dollar against the Euro where the dollar is again above parity with the Euro.

I do not expect this to happen; however, if such a maneuver could be pulled off at this stage in the gold bull, a flanking movement would be required. No head on attack would work, now that many eyes are focused upon the Fed, the ESF and the investment banks.

I see two possible flanking operations:

1) Martial Law declared in the United States and “temporary” banning of “unauthorized” firearms, a complete takeover of law enforcement authority by FEMA (Homeland Security). This will be precipitated by another terrorist action along the lines of 911 or OK City. It will be either be allowed to occur or will be coordinated by an internal agency (ATF, Secret Service, CIA, FBI or MAFIA) of the federal government and will be quickly covered up in the same fashion as the OK City bombing and the 911 attack. Under such a scenario Presidential Powers would be awesomely displayed. Banking activities would be curtailed, the use of cash would be outlawed and only transactions subject to electronic surveillance would be allowed as a means of economic activity. Along with this access to the Internet would be restricted only those who have applied for the proper license (your papers please). Under Martial Law, the Constitution of the United States is assumed to be automatically suspended.

2) A security agreement between the nation of Israel and The UN (Israel’s Covenant with Death) will be signed, a treaty which will guarantee the security of Israel’s borders and ostensibly bring peace to the Mideast. Behind the scenes, there will be a secret agreement with the so-called Arab nations, an agreement which will pacify the future goal of the Muslims: - the demise of Israel in due course. The international stabilizing effect of such an agreement on the flow of oil at lower prices will temporarily drive down POG and take the pressure off fiat currencies. Although POG will drop dramatically in terms of most currencies POG will resume its rise in terms of US dollars due to a stipulation in the above-mentioned agreements that will allow for the settlement of international oil transactions in either Euro’s or Dollars and the decoupling of the Chinese Yuan from the US Dollar.

Both of the above scenarios will certainly happen. The sequence of the events in both undoubtedly will vary and scenario #2 may precede scenario #1 but both will certainly transpire in the foreseeable future.

HBM

[Edit]

Contest Entry -- dotti, 18:41:45 08/31/03 Sun

*************************

Wow!!! I thought that I had missed the opportunity to enter the contest. Then I realized that it is not over, yet. My broadband supplier, Mediacom, was out for the last of last week. Then, I had to work a show. Anyway. I think I can at least post something. Auspec, or Rex, if you will be kind enough to post to the Forum 8--if that is the appropriate one--because I am not knowledgeable of such things, it would be appreciated.

I would like to suggest that the PTB would begin to suggest--in an almost subliminal fashion--that gold is the tool of the terrorists. Much like "cash" has been used as the "tool" of the drug dealers. It would make it unappealing for most Americans, plus raising the spectre that gold could once again become a "controlled substance".

I passed over the possibility that gold, like diamonds, could be fabricated as a synthetic. BTW, you all probably are well aware that diamonds are being created now. Oh. Too bad.

Please have mercy on my lack of posting skills and allow me to enter the contest without posting to the appropriate forum.

Thanking you in advance.

dotti

[Edit]

Au -- Netking, 13:16:39 08/31/03 Sun

GOLD seems poised to push even higher with speculators taking a record long position in New York futures trading.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,7127475%255E643,00.html

The Australian gold industry is on the march again thanks to stronger prices and a production increase in the June year, the first such increase for five years.
http://smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/31/1062268473601.html

[Edit]

GATA -- gata, 11:29:19 08/31/03 Sun

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

New commentary by Richard Russell of Dow Theory Letters
has been posted at Gold-Eagle, and you shouldn't miss it.
He is forecasting the collapse of the U.S. equity markets
and the U.S. dollar and recommending allocation of a third
of everyone's liquid wealth into gold mining shares and
gold coins. You can read it here:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_03/russell090103.html

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

[Edit]

Flinter & All..Speaking of Goldmoney....Here's An Up-Date! -- beesting, 09:27:17 08/31/03 Sun

( 2 YEAR UPDATE ON PERSONAL ACCOUNT.) Up-date is converted into U.S. dollars from goldgrams:

Aug. of 2001 deposited $250.00.
Spent $8.50....New balance $241.50.
No further deposts or withdrawels.
Current balance....Aug. 2003...$300.53.

Comments:
A Very Sincere Thank You To All Those Buyers Of Gold Who Have Driven The POG Up To The Current $375....Per Ounce.

It's Oh So Nice, To Sit Back And Watch The Personal Gold Money Tree Grow.

Mr. Turk, the founder of Goldmoney is now offering a way to buy goldgrams, for Americans, directly from established bank accounts, therefore partially eliminating the "Cambios".
See:
http://info.goldmoney.com/en/gap.html

For a more detailed discussion on the Digital Gold Currency Systems (DGC's), please see the "Gand" thread on forum 2, which can be accessed by clicking the "MENU" @ the top of this page.

Disclaimer: This is neither an endorsement or sales pitch, anyone interested in investing in anything should do their own "DUE DILIGENCE"!

Thanks For Reading.......beesting.

P.S. Sir HBM, did you recieve my e-mail on DGC's?

P.P.S. Here are some links to an e-mail DGC chat site:

subscribe: send blank email to:

dgcchat-join@lists.goldmoney.com

unsubscribe: send blank email to dgcchat-leave@lists.goldmoney.com

digest: send an email to dgcchat-request@lists.goldmoney.com
with "set yourname@yourdomain.com digest=on" in the message body

[Edit]

****CONTEST**** @auspec, ALL -- journeyman, 04:53:54 08/31/03 Sun

Hi auspec, ALL!

What will "they" do next to attempt to control the price of gold?

The truth of the matter is, they will NOT likely be able to keep the price of gold contained any longer. Terrorist events, political events, etc. will only serve to spike the price more -- and "they" cannot prevent -- and may even instigate -- such events. SEE the 300 Philippean soldier rebellion story originally posted at ER by qwerty for example.

"They" are once again looking into the abyss, as from Reginald Howe's lawsuit - - -

According to reliable reports received by the plaintiff, this effort was later described by Edward A. J. George, Governor of the Bank of England and a director of the BIS, to Nicholas J. Morrell, Chief Executive of Lonmin Plc:

We looked into the abyss if the gold price rose further. A further rise would have taken down one or several trading houses, which might have taken down all the rest in their wake. Therefore at any price, at any cost, the central banks had to quell the gold price, manage it. It was very difficult to get the gold price under control but we have now succeeded. The U.S. Fed was very active in getting the gold price down. So was the U.K.

"They" now have two options, should they choose to attempt to moderate the price rises:

1. Sell what remains of their stock of gold -- but that might prove to be suicide for fiat currencies since they would no longer have a credible spoiler for gold money -- which already has a foot-hold in the form of the gold dinar, and much more importantly, as E-GOLD, Gold Money, etc.

2. Make gold illegal again.

Now 2. (above) may seem extreme, but "they" have done this before -- here's my favorite example:

"To reach the climax of ferocity, the Convention decreed, in May 1794, that the death penalty should be inflicted on any person convicted of 'having asked, before a bargain was concluded, in what money [paper "assignats" or gold and silver] payment was to be made.' The great finance minister, Cambon, soon saw that the worst enemies of his [inflationary] policy were gold and silver. Therefore it was that, under his lead, the Convention closed the Exchange and finally, on November 13, 1793, under terrifying penalties, suppressed all commerce in the precious metals." -Andrew Dickson White

And of course, despite the fact that the U.S. Constitution specifically states for very good reasons: "No State shall ... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts" [1] -- on April 5, 1933 President Franklin Delano Roosevelt issued infamous Executive Order #6102 . With EO #6102, Roosevelt, that outlaw and traitor to his country, not only stole our ancestor's gold, he made it illegal to own. [2] Despite the allegiance he swore to The U.S. Constitution when he took his oath of office, Roosevelt turned gold into a "controlled substance" -- as if it were cocaine or heroin.

Do they dare attempt that feat again? I don't think so, but what do I know.

The last time "they" lost control of the price of gold big time ended up with the great London gold-lift --- and Nixon closing the gold window - - - and the floating of virtually all world currencies. Will they get away with it?

Not according to A.D. White describing the incredible social, political, and economic devastation to France caused by the attempt to substitute paper "assignats" for gold and silver money:

"Thus was the history of France logically developed in obedience to natural laws; such has, to a greater or less degree, always been the result of irredeemable paper, created according to the whim or interest of legislative assemblies rather than based upon standards of value permanent in their nature and agreed upon throughout the entire world [gold and silver money]. Such, we may fairly expect, will always be the result of them until the fiat of the Almighty shall evolve laws in the universe radically different from those which at present obtain". *86 -Andrew Dickson White, Fiat Money Inflation In France, (Irvington-on-Hudson, New York: The Foundation for Economic Education, INC. 1959), p. 106-->109

And this has been updated and applied to the modern world - - -

Mr. [Albert] Friedberg {[famed Austrian economist, currency specialist and head of Canada's Friedberg Mercantile Group] ... }notes that since the early 1990s, the Fed [Federal Reserve] has backed a credit expansion policy that it has exported abroad. He also predicts that "the crisis will widen. It will travel from Asia to Russia, Greece, Brazil. Eventually it will come back to the United States." -TORONTO GLOBE AND MAIL (January 10, 1998)

But we're America -- it couldn't happen to us. Could it?

Unfortunately, so far at least, A.D. White and Mr. Friedberg have been completely correct. Where? Well beginning only with the Mexican peso crisis of 1995, in S. Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Brazil, Ecuador, Argentina -- and I'm sure I missed a few.

Will the u.S. as we know it survive free-market gold? Well, times have changed. Haven't they?

Or will "they" sell their remaining gold in a vain attempt to protect their ability to create unlimited fiat magabyte money? Will they attempt to outlaw gold again?

As Yogi says, "Prediction is very difficult, especially of the future."

Regards,
Journeyman

NOTES:

[1] Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 United States Constitution from U.S. House of Representatives, return

[2] As you would expect in such a radical document, the terminology in EO 6102 is predictably political. Remember, our ancestors always transacted with gold or silver. How do you go about making that illegal all of a sudden? 6102 speaks of "hoarding." Most people would call it "saving." Anyway, if they wanted to end hoarding, why is gold no longer available for transactions? Answer: It was truly "hoarded" by the Federal Reserve system & U.S. Government -- in places like the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and Fort Knox, Kentucky. In 1933, the Federal Reserve paper money scam was about to blow up, and like Cambon and the French before them, the bankers knew they had to get the gold out of circulation. 6102 was how they did it. return

[Edit]

You Still Have 24 Hours to Go For the Silver.. -- Rex, 23:49:57 08/30/03 Sat

If you like Silver, you'll love the three 1 Troy Oz .999 Silver Rounds
ER is awarding to the three winners of our current contest.

You still have 24 hours to post an entry..

See ER Forum 8 for the *******Gold Charade Contest*******

http://209.55.84.52/76552/#os-2

This Link to ER Forum 8, opens in a separate browser window..

[Edit]

Silver Poised To Explode by Brian Bloom -- Silvertigo, 22:15:02 08/30/03 Sat

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_03/bloom083103.html
Sees big silver measured move coming. Shows some silver stock charts in triple top breakout, anticipating metal. Says dollar measured move is to .60 if .87 is reached.

[Edit]

@Netking, All -- Goldus, 20:10:54 08/30/03 Sat

I agree, only in later stages of the bull, awareness comes. Repeated exposure and popular acceptance will suffice to allow any stigma of barbarism to be tolerated- "It's hip, it's cheap, it's shiny." See, coin replica promotions are now packaged with your credit card bill, in the newspapers, on the tv. Of course the real thing too, at a glamorous markup, usually sporting that attractive Liberty broad.
Recalling the last big Ag bull market, when POS went over $50, there were many who couldn't have cared less. And there were many who bought in at POS over $15.00. While this time is more complicated, it's eerily similar, thanks to human(and demon) nature.
I was at Barnes and Noble today, and I read the latest (6 page) David Guyatt article on black gold and the Hammer Project, published in the latest (Sept.-Oct. 2003) bimonthly NEXUS magazine. There was an article on Rockefeller and the NWO too, and some decent book reviews. (See http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk for Guyatts free articles and voluminous downloads. Also nexusmagazine.com has lots of free articles, including some from the latest issue.)
Would you have thought David would say nothing about black silver? Gold yes, gems yes. But silver, nada.
Yes, silver's bulky. Silver's scarce. Silver's stigmatized. Silver's "for sissies". But it makes me shake, either because it's risky, it's awesome or it just weighs too much!
Hey Endgame? That Armstrong guy was right about the Ag hordes of the wealthy, but I'm not sure they're any more inclined to dump whatever they have onto a bonfire commodities bull than the Central Banksters, Vatican, IMF, etc will with their gold. The Washington agreement renewal may have gold AND silver sales ceilings. But will be a tad redundant, in what will be an acknowledged decade or decades-long bull market IMO.

[Edit]

IAEA & Iran -- Netking, 19:12:53 08/30/03 Sat

I guess if North Korea was not enough to worry about, throw in Iraq and now . . . Iran capers.

Debka reported that the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency – IAEA –put out a disturbing report this week confirming earlier revelations that traces of uranium enrichment activity were found in samples at Natanz nuclear facility in Iran, 290 km south of Tehran, evidence that Iran was in the process of building a nuclear arsenal. [Intl fair use snippet]
http://debka.com/article.php?aid=549

No peace on the horizon anytime soon . . .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
goldus - Will they indeed notice. The early stages of the bull say [in historical terms] no, they will not! In fact there will be contrary messages going out [from the establishment] as some early support/resistance levels are broken. . . . only in stage 3 of the bull history suggests [sadly] will the mom's & dad's come on board . . . sheep without at shepherd.

[Edit]

Correction -- goldus, 14:00:49 08/30/03 Sat

"...we'll see Ag take out some of those PESKY resistance levels, yes?"
Poll:
1)Will $7.35 be seriously noticed by the average household, investor, or analyst in a time of WAT(War against terrorism)? (See question #2)
My take is: no. Unless it facilitates further price suppression somehow or other, but then they still won't notice. Got to get over $10.00 first.
2) Will the precedents of 9-11 and the resulting Afghanistan invasion and the Iraq invasion be repeated, to divert public attention from the economy and to divert the public's money to the elites and insiders(defense contractors, banks, investment brokers, etc.)?
I say probably, because of this ongoing, accelerating N. Korea nuclear issue. And M. East, especially as it appears Israel will not be able to support her economy AND war much longer. Iraqnam can expand to involve Pakistan, Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, etc. Besides, there may be too many simultaneous bubbles to supersede.
"Where's that remote and, aahhh, where would I be without my oversized vibrating leather stratocaster?"

[Edit]

@Netking, All -- Silvertigo, 13:37:27 08/30/03 Sat

It is interesting that China is hosting it's 2nd annual silver conference. And Mexico's Ag output's down. And Chinese are trading in gold and silver legally. And the media's forgotten about silver. And POS has stayed over $5.08 for at least a couple days or so.
And of course, inflation adjusted POS is really down from recent years. And it's a commodity! As the CRB index is still seriously undervalued and in liftoff mode, we'll see Ag take out some of those peky resistance levels, yes?
And Fed repo money, according to Mike Bolser, moving into equities and currency plays seems to be largely played out, especially in dollar, yen and euro. That isn't to say that there won't be U.S. cushioning money continuing to flow, but that we'll see currencies returning to their previous trend. Eventually equities must capitulate. Certainly mortgage rates already have, and refi's are way off their peaks, new originations too.
Watch long-bonds- they'll have to offer attractive rates to match money markets and CD's, but not before the stealth carnage resumes as in July.

[Edit]

Mexico say Ag production down -- Netking, 12:11:48 08/30/03 Sat

MEXICO CITY, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Silver output in Mexico,
the world's largest producer, fell 13.8 percent in June from a year earlier to 233,092 kilograms, the government's statistics institute said on Friday. Mexico's gold output fell 30.1 percent to 1,563 kg in June, it said.

Mexico's mining and metallurgical production as a whole
fell 3.2 percent in the month, with declines also in coke and zinc. A breakdown of metals production follows:

Product June 2003 Pct Chg Yr-to-date
vs yr ago
Gold 1,563 kgs -30.1 11,466
Silver 233,092 kgs -13.8 1,420,979
Lead 11,370 tonnes +11.5 68,965
Copper 25,384 tonnes + 2.0 133,901
Zinc 32,733 tonnes - 6.2 198,300
(Reporting by Chris Aspin, Editing by Gary Crosse; Reuters
Messaging: chris.aspin.reuters.com@reuters.net,
mexicocity.newsroom@reuters.com, +52
[Copied under "intl. fair use"]

[Edit]

GATA -- gata, 08:34:34 08/30/03 Sat

By Kevin Morrison
Financial Times
August 29, 2003
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&
c=StoryFT&cid=1059479423122&p=1012571727143

The prospect of gold breaking the six-year highs hit
in February increased this week when so-called
"open interest" in US gold futures on Comex in New
York reached a record high, after a large surge in
trading on Wednesday.

Andy Smith, analyst at Mitsui Global Precious
Metals, said the increase in open interest, which
is more than 26 million ounces or more than 40
percent of last year's world gold production,
suggested that there was perhaps new buying
by investors who do not traditionally venture
into the precious metals market. The purchases
were worth about $6.9 billion, relatively small
by equity or bond market values, but very large
for gold.

Silver, platinum, and palladium have also been
enjoying near-record volumes of interest in
recent weeks.

Previous large open interest volumes were
followed by events that rapidly moved gold
prices. In March 1993, George Soros and the late
Sir James Goldsmith announced they were buying
gold; in January 1996, Barrick Gold, one the world's
largest gold producers and major proponent of
gold hedging, announced it was closing up to a
third of its hedge book; and in September 1999
when Wim Duisenberg, president of the European
Central Bank, announced the Central Bank Gold
Agreement.

Rumours about a renewal of the gold agreement
was one of the reasons analysts gave for the
increase in open futures contracts following
confirmation this week that the Bank of Greece
sold 20 tonnes of gold last week, raising â‚¬200m.
Greece is the only member of the eurozone not
part of the agreement, which expires in
September and was widely seen as joining the
pact in any renewal.

Mr. Smith said options for about 60 tonnes' worth
of gold were in place at strike prices of between
$400 and $500 a troy ounce.

Spot gold was trading at $373.25/$374.00 a troy
ounce, up more than $10 on the week, but about
$15 below the six-year high of $388.50 reached in
early February.

"This could be enough to make some gold
producers reduce their hedge book, so that they
don't miss out on any price gains," Mr. Smith said.
Gold miners hedge a proportion of their production
at fixed prices for a future delivery, but in recent
years they have reduced their hedging positions
and this has in turn helped lift gold prices.

END

Comment: Everywhere one looks we see gold enthusiasm..............no? Once again, we're at that magical threshold.

[Edit]

Gold. It's elemental (my dear Watson). -- Goldus, 07:12:07 08/30/03 Sat

From: bilrum@knology.net (Charleston Voice)
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059479423122&p=1012571727143
Gold poised for substantial move higher By Kevin Morrison Published: August 29 2003 -Excerpt:
"The prospect of gold breaking the six-year highs hit in February increased this week when so-called "open interest" in US gold futures on Comex in New York reached a record high, after a large surge in trading on Wednesday.
Andy Smith, analyst at Mitsui Global Precious Metals, said the increase in open interest, which is more than 26m ounces or more than 40 per cent of last year's world gold production, suggested that there was perhaps new buying by investors who do not traditionally venture into the precious metals market. The purchases were worth about $6.9bn, relatively small by equity or bond market values, but very large for gold."
Permission to reprint excerpt granted under U.S. Fair Use Law.

[Edit]

Iraq -- All Seeing Eye, 07:06:03 08/30/03 Sat

Never underestimate the "home field advantage".

[Edit]

GATA -- gata, 06:39:55 08/30/03 Sat

Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

GATA Chairman Bill Murphy's "Midas" commentary for
Thursday, August 28, at his subscription Internet
site, www.LeMetropoleCafe.com, has been posted in
the clear at GoldSeek:

http://www.goldseek.com/news/LemetropoleCafe/1062168659.php

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

[Edit]

The Almighty Dollar ? -- Netking, 22:50:58 08/29/03 Fri

In the face of the underlying weakness of the American economy, there is a growing sense of inevitability that sooner or later the dollar will be forced to depreciate, an event that will have significant repercussions for the USA and the world economy.

The Almighty Dollar?

"...The US dollar accounts for almost 70% of global currency reserves - the money that nations use to finance international trade and hold to protect their own currencies against financial speculators. Because it is so dominant any marked shift in its value would inevitably have major repercussions around the world..."

"...In response to his question "When will the game playing come to an end?" he says "When the Chinese have had enough..."
[Snips of main link copied under "Fair Use"]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmmm, the 2's have it, or not? They gotta plan for sure, whatz the market gonna say . . . time and price calculations may have something different in store for us, we wait & watch over the next few months together.

[Edit]

Silver for Nothing.. And Your Shipping's Free! -- Rex, 21:26:13 08/29/03 Fri

Just another reminder folks..

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more days for you to post an entry.

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You might be one of them. It's so easy..

Just post your thoughts regarding Auspec's Question:

"What event or "Charade" might the gold cartel/TPTB try next to quash the POG?"

The contest ends midnight August 31, 2003 (ER Time) when Auspec
will select the three winning entrants, and announce them soon after.

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C'mon folks, this first-ever ER Contest can make you RICH!

You can view the contest entries at ER Forum 8:

http://209.55.84.52/76552/#os-2

..Rx

[Edit]

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