"Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People -- Physical Examination & Diagnostic Procedures.

[ VoyUser Login optional ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ]

Subject: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People

Author:
Carol
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 23:21:45 06/12/09 Fri

I doubt if anyone would be troubled by exposure during healthcare, provided it was essential to the procedure.
What most people object to is being exposed when it is not absolutely necessary, or being uncovered more than is truly required for what is being done.

As an example, I recall an older man who described what took place when he went for a gall bladder operation some years ago. He was 45 at the time.

The night before the surgery had to shave him for the operation. She told him she would shave him from just below his armpits to a few inches below his navel. Then she slid
his sheet down to mid-thigh and folded his gown up to his shoulders. She then did exactly what she had described,
soaping him and shaving the entire area, stopping well above his pubic region.

He was embarrassed to be uncovered, of course, but he was too anxious about the operation to say anything at the time. Later, when he remembered the incident, he wondered why the girl exposed as much as she did. That much exposure was clearly not necessary to the procedure, yet he had to lie there like that for the full twenty minutes.

That's the part that would bother me, and I'm sure it would be the same for most of you. The key word, as I said above, is "unnecessary" when it comes to healthcare exposure.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Who Is to judge What Is "Necessary"?

Author:
Leah
[Edit]
Date Posted: 06:17:03 06/14/09 Sun

Here's the problem with the word "necessary" in when health care is taking place. We, the patients, are not really in a position to judge what is necessary.

For example, if a woman goes to a caregiver for, say, a bad cough, she probably expects the caregiver to look in her
throat and prescribe an antibiotic and that is all. The caregiver recognizes that the chest and back should be listened to with a stethoscope, so the woman may be asked to undress to the waist. The caregiver felt that this was "necessary". She thinks she was exposed needlessly.

In the case of the shave described in the post above, theyoung lady evidently thought it was "necessary" for her view the entire field as she prepped the man for surgery.
She probably believed she could better judge how far down towards the genitals she should shave, based on the amount of hair on the front of his body and its distribution.
She was undoubtedly trained to do preps just that way.
He, evidently, felt that she exposed more than "necessary".

So, the concept of what is necessary" is dependent upon
which side of the scene you are on, either as the patient or as the caregiver. Why not let the caregivers decide how to do the procedures? That's what they're trained to do.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Exactly. Let The Caregivers Do Their Jobs Their Way

Author:
Paula
[Edit]
Date Posted: 14:24:46 06/15/09 Mon

Why are we trying to tell the caregivers how we think they should do their jobs. Let's grant that they know what they are doing. After all, we aren't the first patient they ever examined or did a specific procedure on. If we let them alone and stop second-guessing how they do things, we'll all be better off.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Exactly. Let The Caregivers Do Their Jobs Their Way

Author:
Mickey
[Edit]
Date Posted: 15:59:10 06/15/09 Mon

Okay,

Interesting perspective...but I have to question whether we are performing health care in the best interest of the patient. Paramount to any medical procedure is patient modesty...which almost always can be worked into an exam w/o limiting medical care..even testicular exams can be done with out complete exposure. When I hear comments like this...I see an arrogant medical provider..who has little regard or empathy for the patient.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Who Is to judge What Is "Necessary"?

Author:
Rebelheart, the real one
[Edit]
Date Posted: 22:01:13 08/02/09 Sun

The honeymoon period is over when the husband calls home to say he'll be late for dinner, and the answering machine says it's in the microwave.

BTW, I'm a free spirit.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People

Author:
rk
[Edit]

Date Posted: 18:25:54 06/15/09 Mon

"Why are we trying to tell the caregivers how we think they should do their jobs. Let's grant that they know what they are doing. After all, we aren't the first patient they ever examined or did a specific procedure on. If we let them alone and stop second-guessing how they do things, we'll all be better off."

Paula: Let's grant a few other things:
-- "Do their jobs?" Remember, we are the "jobs" they're doing.
-- Our bodies belong to us, not the caregivers.
-- Just because people are taught to do something a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean it is the correct way. What they're taught in "school" and what they're taught "on the job" may be quite different. Often what you learn on the job is what's in your or the institution's best interest.
-- We are not mere objects they are working on.
-- There are human beings, people, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers, grandfathers that are the "object" of their work.
-- We may not be the first person they have done a procedure on, but they may be the first person who has done such a procedure on us. That's the point. That's what matters. How often do we have to say this -- It's not about them. It's about the patient."
-- The number of people who die each year in hospitals due to errors suggest strongly that patients keep they eyes open and don't just "let them alone and stop second-guessing them." Patients have an absolute right to information and input into the entire process. That's a fact. Don't forget it.
-- There are real people attached to the organs and limbs doctors and nurses are working on. When medical professionals lose sight of the person behind the organ, they need to find another profession. I don't care how good they are.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: rk, I Repeat, Who Decides What Is "Necessary"?
Author: Leah [Edit]	Date Posted: 07:46:15 06/16/09 Tue What you said makes sense in theory, that unnecessary exposure is wrong. But, as I asked in my earier post, who is to decide how much exposure is necessary for a certain procedure? Please read my earlier post for some examples. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: It's A Cookie Cutter Approach, As Paul and Gordon Said

Author:
Commentator
[Edit]

Date Posted: 08:16:35 06/27/09 Sat

Yes, they do use a cookie-cutter approach. The aides, most often younger staff members, often females, are minimally trained using a cookie-cutter approach. It' easier that way.

Every patient having surgery on a specific region of the body is a shaved over a broad area as defined in their training. So an abdominal prep, for example, requires one kind of shave. For surgery on the back, it's another broad
area, and likewise for lower limb and upper limb shaves.
Training is quicker that way.

They could, of course, customize each prep according to what exactly is being done in the surgery, but they don't.
The aides are not even in on what exactly will be done.
They also don't know the preferences of specific surgeons, and they are assigned randomly to their patients to prep.

I'm not defending any of this, just describing it. Paul is right. If the patient disagrees with what is being done and who is assigned to do it, he or she must speak up. It's
a fact, though, that vdery few ever do that.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: It's A Cookie Cutter Approach, As Paul and Gordon Said
Author: Ben [Edit]	Date Posted: 22:12:46 06/28/09 Sun You're right Commentator, patients must speak up. I guess if they are too cowardly or stupid to say anything then they deserve the disgusting, unethical treatment. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People

Author:
Charlie
[Edit]

Date Posted: 10:27:07 06/16/09 Tue

Leah and Paula, if that's how you feel then be happy and enjoy it. For those of us that have minds of our own, who have had past experiences that prove that medical personnel DON'T have our best interest in mind and DON'T always know what they're doing, we can think, request and demand it be done properly. Chances are neither of you have been shaved from nipple to knee by a teenaged boy for a abdoman procedure.

Until we stick up for ourselves that nonsense will always happen. I don't believe that CNAs and other medical "go-fors" know what they're doing or deserve the kind of respect we give doctors. They can't decide for themselves through their medical education or experience how each individual case or patient should be handled. They play "Monkey see - monkey do". Every patient is the same for them and if one patient, for one reason or another needs to be shaved a certain way then to them all patients must be done the same.

I personally won't allow it. If more people stuck up for themselves instead of assuming these teenagers or other medical go-fors really know what they're doing then maybe the medical world will begin to realize that their patients are humans, same as them, and start to treat them accordingly.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Broad Training Is Easier and Cheaper

Author:
Gordon
[Edit]

Date Posted: 12:19:55 06/16/09 Tue

They use a broad brush approach when they train the aides of which you speak. They are trained to do everything the same so no decisions have to be made. For example, every patient having an abdominal operation is prepped this way,
every patient having a knee operation is prepped that way,
and so on.

That way, the training is faster, easier, and cheaper, so
all they have to do is tell them which patient is having what surgery and they take it from there. No decisions, no questions to answer. We may not approve of this, but that's how it works. But don't blame the kids for that.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Broad Training Is Easier and Cheaper
Author: bump [Edit]	Date Posted: 15:40:52 06/26/09 Fri bump [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Broad Training Is Easier and Cheaper
Author: Charlie [Edit]	Date Posted: 22:16:55 06/28/09 Sun I don't blame the kids, I just refuse them. It's their incompetent supervisors that I blame. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People
Author: To All [Edit]	Date Posted: 15:12:27 06/27/09 Sat For 30 years many health depts and Doctors have been saying that shaving with any type of razor should never be done and only use a clioppers if absolutely necessary. Google sites on operation shaving. If the Doctors need hair cut it should only be done in the op room to prevent infections, this is proven. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Nobody Said It Wasn't Proven. Read The Thread
Author: Frank [Edit]	Date Posted: 21:59:50 06/27/09 Sat Of curse it is proven. That's easy to find on the internet. The issue it that not every facility has adoped the new protocols, so they still cking to the old methods. Please pay attention to the thread. We all agree that it is proven, but we all know new ideas have not yet found universal acceptance. Get it? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People
Author: To Frank [Edit]	Date Posted: 00:00:52 06/29/09 Mon I get it BUT the USA medical people don't get it , so they must be told over and over. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People
Author: Ben [Edit]	Date Posted: 23:49:55 07/02/09 Thu No matter how many times they are told you will still get perverted teenage girls exposing as much as possible (usually exposing ALLL) and doctors and nurses all look the other way. That must be the reward for CNAs that do their other work well. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: You're Right. Ben, It Is Often Younger Girls Who Do It

Author:
Cheryl
[Edit]

Date Posted: 17:00:50 07/04/09 Sat

Ben has observed that younger aides seem to do a lot of the preps. I wonder why that seems to be true. I also wonder if these young girls also shave female patients. We have not heard from any female patients yet, so we don't know.

It does seem that older nurses consider preps to be drudge work, and if that is true, it would explain why the younger girls are given those jobs.

I wonder if they ever consider the embarrassment factor when assigning who will prep men. If it has to be a woman doing the prep, most men, I am sure, would find a young woman much more embarrasisng than an older nurse. Or don't they even consider patient comfort about who does it?

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People

Author:
rk
[Edit]

Date Posted: 04:46:02 07/05/09 Sun

Patient comfort is one of the main missions of nursing. Yet it's rationalized away in situations like this. It's psychologically safe for nurses just to assume that men don't mind if they don't speak up. Anyway, there's much work to do and the job just has to be done. So get it done, anyway you can. Nurses don't always have a male nurse available, and when the do they often don't want to bother the male nurse. If they do that too much they may be considered not competent to handle these sensitive situations with male intimate care, which they are expected to do. Nurses are taught that embarrassment is natural and just needs to be dealt with. They are taught or learn on the job strategies that they think mitigate embarrassment. Some of these strategies may work. Some don't. But the problem is that there are no universal strategies for all patients. Each patient is different and needs to be treated as an individual. That takes time, which isn't always available.
And the big problem is male psychology -- men are socialized to just take it, to suck it up, to not complain, to be a big boy and not cry. Be macho. Take it like a man. So many of them do and don't speak up. But they hold their grief and humiliation and embarrassment inside and resent like hell what happened to them. I think this contributes in some way to why men don't seek health care as often as women do. The bedside caregiving aspects of health care are dominated by females. Many men have had bad experiences and don't feel welcome or respected within that system.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: The Best Synopsis On This Much-Discussed Topic

Author:
Observer
[Edit]

Date Posted: 08:55:47 07/05/09 Sun

RK has given us what is easily the best synopsis of the topic that has been discussed over and over right here.

There was never any doubt that a double standard exists.
There was never any doubt that even when males dislike what is going on, they fail to speak up for themselves.

The question was why don't they speak up. RK was right on target when he said that men are socialized to take what is dished out to them or not be considered a real "man". In other words, they are embarrassed to admit embarrassment.

Females in healthcare know this well and take advantage of it, but not to belittle their male patients. No, they take advantage of the male mind-set to simply get their work done as quickly and efficiently as they can. Making the adjustments that would be required if males were shown the deference females are shown would take a lot of time and effort. At least that's what they seem to think, anyhow.

Knowing that, generally speaking, men won't say anything no matter how they feel, the women just go ahead with the job.
And it seems to work for them. Men accept it, but they express their concerns later, when it's too late.

As a thought experiment, just try to imagine what would happen if all the sexes were reversed in a healthcare setting for one day. Male aides, male nurses, male techs, are assigned to female patients for examinations and procedures of all kinds.

How long before the objections and refusals would resound to the highest officials in the facility? If you said about
an hour, you are probably being generous. It would be less time than it took to read this post. Agree? Disagree?

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: The Best Synopsis On This Much-Discussed Topic
Author: Rebelheart [Edit]	Date Posted: 18:30:34 07/05/09 Sun Q. What do aerobic instructors and people who process bacon have in common? A. They both tear hams into shreds. BTW, I'm a free spirit. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People

Author:
Gabe
[Edit]

Date Posted: 04:41:34 07/06/09 Mon

rk, when you say "Anyway, there's much work to do and the job just has to be done. So get it done, anyway you can.", I assume you mean that's what the nursing staff believes and is not your personal opinion, right?

Observer, you said "Females in healthcare know this well and take advantage of it, but not to belittle their male patients." I believe that many enjoy dominating the male patient and making him feel powerless. It's fun and makes them feel better about themselves, especially if they sometimes feel dominated by the man in their own personal relationship.

You're right, women would never tolerate being treated like men are normally treated in medical situations. That's why men should speak up and maybe some day we'll all be treated equally.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People

Author:
rk
[Edit]

Date Posted: 13:31:05 07/06/09 Mon

rk, when you say "Anyway, there's much work to do and the job just has to be done. So get it done, anyway you can.", I assume you mean that's what the staff believes and is not your personal opinion, right?

I mean nurses and their assistants are very busy people. They're understaffed. They have more patients to deal with than time to deal with them. They get into the mode that they've got to go from one to the other to the other. If no one complains, why should they ask? It just takes more time out of their busy schedule. If a male patient does ask for a male nurse and there's any possibility of getting one, you'll probably get one. If more men stood up for what they wanted and demanded male care, they'd get it. Staffing and hiring policies would change. But until men speak up, nurses and cnas are just going to go about their jobs doing what they're supposed to do. I don't necessarily think it's right. It's just the reality. Half of the blame goes to men who don't speak up.
On the other hand, vulnerability is another issue. Patients are sometimes afraid that if they speak up the quality of their care will be affected, especially patients with life threatening conditions. But that's another issue.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: You know you've been a nurse too long when ...

Author:
Rebelheart, the real one
[Edit]

Date Posted: 20:19:06 07/16/09 Thu

You know you've been a nurse too long when ...

1) Discussing dismemberment over a meal seems perfectly normal.
2) You believe that "shallow gene pool" should be a diagnosis.
3) You believe that chocolate is a food group.
4) You admire a stranger's veins.
5) You have referred to someone's death as a transfer to the "Eternal Care Unit."
6) You believe in aerosol spraying of Prozac.
7) You have had to leave a patient's room before breaking out in uncontrollable laughter.

BTW, I'm a free spirit.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People
Author: bumper [Edit]	Date Posted: 22:58:20 07/18/09 Sat bump [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People
Author: Rebelheart [Edit]	Date Posted: 23:07:21 07/23/09 Thu Q. How many lawyers does it take to roof a house? A. Depends on how thinly you slice them. BTW, I'm a free spirit. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: The world's biggest lies ...

Author:
Rebelheart, the real one
[Edit]

Date Posted: 18:10:08 07/24/09 Fri

The world's biggest lies ...

1) Eat this, you'll like it.
2) Its only previous owner was a little old lady who just drove it to the shops.
3) My wife doesn't understand me.
4) You don't look a day over 40.
5) Don't worry, madam, we'll be with you first thing in the morning.
6) We've had a lot of interest in this property.
7) Of course I love you.
8) You don't need it in writing - you have my word.
9) I'll call you later.
10) It's only a cold sore.

BTW, I'm a free spirit.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The world's biggest lies ...
Author: Sir aleppo, the Great [Edit]	Date Posted: 21:08:48 07/30/09 Thu Q. What's the difference between a Catholic wife and a Jewish wife? A. The Catholic wife has real orgasms and fake jewellery. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The world's biggest lies ...
Author: Rebelheart, the real one [Edit]	Date Posted: 21:50:59 07/30/09 Thu A man's description of marriage - a very expensive way to get your laundry done for free. BTW, I'm a free spirit. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People
Author: To All [Edit]	Date Posted: 05:51:22 07/31/09 Fri SEND IN YOU COMPLANTS TO THE AMA , DOCTORS, HOSPITALS, AND ETC. TELL THEM IF THEY WANT MORE PATIENTS LIKE THEY AVERTISE FOR THEY SURE OFFER BETTER PERSONAL TREATMENT. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People

Author:
Exposed
[Edit]

Date Posted: 18:12:37 08/02/09 Sun

I guess working in healthcare for 30 years just gives me a different prespective on what is going on. My last surgical procedures was testicular surgery and was performed after I was given the pre-op shot. I don't have a clue who did what and from what I am reading that is OK? I know it is easy to blame the CNA or PCT for doing their job, but if you are going to blame anyone for the surgical prep you have received, you best talk to your surgeon because they dictate the type of prep for your surgery. And if you do no get a prep that they like, I even know one surgeon that has been known to shave patients with a surgical scaple. Then the CNA/PCT(patient care technician) will catch all kinds of hell by a screeming doctor and surgical staff. JCAHO (Joint Commission for the Accreditation of Hospitals) recommends that razor shaves be eliminated and clippers used. Hospitals inspected by this organization probably are using this technology.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: "Unnecessary" Is The Word That Bothers People
Author: Rebelheart, the real one [Edit]	Date Posted: 21:34:30 08/02/09 Sun I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back. BTW, I'm a free spirit. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-5
VF Version: 2.94, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums^(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2008 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.