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Subject: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Friday, April 13, 2012, 05:33: am

The subject has been already discussed but as it was stopped in a thread which has been deleted, I try to introduce it again about the respect of modesty at draft physicals.

The draft physicals seem to have been in quite all countries which had a mandatory military service for young men (and it is still true for the few ones which still have it) a particular situation where modesty of young men aged of 18 or sometimes a little more was not at all a matter of concern.

It was true during all the years and everywhere.

First, we can think that it was because of the fact that the army was an only male environment where there was no women, and we know that in the history, it seems that in many societies the nudity between males was not an issue.

Secondly, it could be also because the draftees when they were aged of 18 were still considered as "lads ", legally minor persons with not the same right as adults persons, and not really mature men, and subsequently their nudity was quite logical even in a large group and in front of adult persons, it was not something to be discussed and no complaining was tolerated. Boys of that age were submitted to decision of adults and had no other attitude than to obey and without any reluctance.

Third, it was a question of efficiency, at least it was the official reason. There was a great number of dratees to examin in a short time, so it was necessary to manage the examination in a way which made not loose time for nothing like it could be if the draftees were undressing alone, one by one, or undressing by steps and not only onre time and completely.

And last argument, the physicals might be very thorough because it was important for the army to be sure that they were fit and it was an opportunity to check all what could be on male teenagers before their induction. They would have after to live at barracks in large groups, so it was very important for instance to be sure that they had no rushes, no diseases, no issues at ghenitals and so on ..
It was the best opportunity to check that they had no issues at genitals and balls and spine and even assholes.
it was also like a ritual initiation before they became adults

All that is well known.

Sometimes, the same arguments were used to manage school physicals or sport physicals at school in a military style.

But one change happened in the last years of the mandatory military service, it was that women could be present at draft physicals, not always but sometimes or at least have a good view on the examination normally or occasionnally or accidentally.

first because there was female military doctors assisted by female nurses to perform the examination and they were more and more numerous in the more recent years.It was true in Germany where there was almost only women hired as medical persons to perform the draft physicals as we can read in many relations and in a book recently edited on that subject.
It was true in Russia and all the other countries which were previously communists states until recent time and certainly in many other countries even in the United States.

So the army and draft physicals were no more an only male environment but nothing changed immediately in the set up of the draft physicals.

and sometimes, it went more far, it was when female clerks staff were also involved at draftees physicals either because they could see the naked draftees from the offices where they worked, either because they were walking in corridors or hallways where the drafftees were lining up naked to wait their turn, either because less frequently they were asked to enter in the examination room to put some forms to doctors or officers, or more they were told to assist the doctors as secretaries during all or part of the examination.

And I do not talk of the situation where a few women could be members or spectators of a draft board commission in front of which the draftees had to report stark naked, it happened only in some countries as Russia where a few years ago it was related that female teachers or principals of high schools as well as some female members of the staff of the draft office were invited to be present at the meets of the draft board commission or were even sometimes members of the commission.

All these instances showed that the arguments which were used first to justify the disregard of the modesty of the young men examinees in a far past were not so true in more recent years but during many years nobody thought that this new situation required new rules about the state of undress of the draftees.

And as it was said in the some messages deleted, these situations gave to women, no matter was their age, a very good opportunity to look at young men in the nude and to enjoy to that view if they were not too much prude without any risk for their reputation as they were doing the job that they were told to do.

And some women could enjoy of their power on young males totally under control and in situations of forced nudity where they had no choice to avoid it.

And like it was said, their pleasure could be increased by the fact that they knew perfectly that they would never been in such a degrading situation since it was only for young men, the gils would never be summoned to be submitted to such physicals. It was one of the best double sdandart situation for the advantage of women.

And it was so admitted as someting normal in the society that there was some scenes of draft physicals with naked draftees exposed from the back with bare asses which were shown in the newsreals before a movie in a cinema theater with a mixed audience composed of course of girls and women.

As it was not surprising, the girls generally were giggling at the view of the bare asses of the young men lining up in the nude at draft physicals, and it was still more true when they were in group, while the youn male tenagers who knew that it would be their turn one day were rather embarrassed.

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
CFNM Guy
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Date Posted: Friday, April 13, 2012, 07:37: am

All you say is very true. I remember one guy saying that while at his draft physical he and other guys were lined up naked in a corridor waiting to enter the exam room. The corridor had offices in it where there were female clerks, and he was very embarassed to see a girl he knew from HS waving at him through a window in the office.
There is no doubt that modesty for the young guys was of no consideration during these draft physicals, even when females were present.
Btw, do you have links to the German draft physicals in front of many women?
I have seen several pictures of Russian draft physicals showing the draftees totally naked giving exam papers to female clerks sitting on desks.
Also standing naked one by one in front of draft board sitting at a desk, which included women. They were obviuosly not allowed to cover because they had their hands at their sides.
So all of these women working in these draft centers had a good view of all the naked young draftees, even though they were not medical persons.
Some accounts from many different places even say that the young draftees had to give urine samples in front of female assistents.

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Reb
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 15, 2012, 09:56: pm

I just barely (pun intended), remember my draft physical. Most of the time we were in our briefs, part of the time we were nude. I do remember women, young and older, being there but the thought of them picking me out of all those others never crossed my mind. I suppose there is some privacy by being in large numbers. Besides, we all have more to worry about other than having a woman see us naked. Being drafted and sent to Nam wasn't especially popular at the time, especially with the horror stories folks were bringing back. We had a lot of returning GIs in school with us and became close. They confided a lot about a lot of things. Being naked just didn't seem to matter at all, just part of dorm life. It was a male dorm but we were always having women visitors or one sort or the other.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Monday, April 16, 2012, 02:50: pm

"Reb" : you are right with your comment about draft physicals. i think also that the nudity in a large group was not the main concern of the draftees during the Vietnam war, it was the war and the risks of being injured seriously or worse killed in Vietnam which was more important obviously.

It was the same in France during the algerian war where about 13 000 draftees were killed in several years.
I was too young at that time to be a draftee but I am convinced that the idea of being forced to report in front of the members of a draft board commission stark naked at 18 age as it was the rule was not the main concernfor them. They feared certainly to be send in Algeria more than to be exposed in the nude to a dozen members of the draft board board.

The question of the nudity and modesty could only be a real issue when it was a peace time for mandatory draft as in Germany in the recent years for instance or in all countries which were in peace.

It is true also that for some young men, may be not all, it could be less embarrassing to be naked in front of a lot of persons including some women, young and older, if they were not alone, but with a large group of guys all naked together. As you said, you had more to worry about other than having a woman see you naked, I understand your statement.

But you talked of several women at your own draft physicals, can you tell us a little more ?, if you kew who they were ? and why they were present?, what was their job ? or the reason of their presence ?

To illustrate what you said about the diffference between being naked in a group and being naked alone for an examination, I have noticed that in a german book where there was a lot of witnesses about draft physicals in the recent years since it was only in 2011 that the mandatory military service was abolished. Many german young men related their feeling of indignity at their examination in the nude in front of a female doctor assisted by one or two female nurses or secretaries while they were examined one by one alone in the exam room and not in group like it was some years ago.

So normally their privacy was even so best protected than before but they were apparently more shocked or humliliated by this kind of examination in front of two or three women.

To answer to "CFMN guy", you are right also: according to relation that I have read like you, it was very common in Russia and other eastern countries where there was still a mandatory military service with draft physicals that the draftees were all the time of the process in the nude even for check of idendity or eyes test or urine test and were eventually reporting in front of a draft member commission which seemed always being made up of a few women, not medical persons.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 04:12: am

I presume that you are right.

even for women, the draft physicals with a lot of naked young men every day of the week and week after week would be something normal and usual after the first days and we can presume that they did not mind to that exposure than yourself did. It was becoming a casual situation not really interesting.

it is certainly true that to see naked long lines of young men would not be an event when it was all the days the same.

May be, it would have been different if the examination would have been performed one by one as in Germany

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Reb
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Date Posted: Monday, April 16, 2012, 07:42: pm

Can't remember who they were, and I never knew why they were there. This was back in 1970 or so. I do remember they appeared to be busy and seem to have jobs. I never did see any of the stare or anything. Figure after day after day, week after week, of seeing long lines of naked people, you get to where they all look alike.

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2012, 02:40: pm

For those who are interested, thre is a book which contains a lot of witnesses of german draftees and also of female nurses, female doctors or female secretaries about draft physicals in the nude in the recent years before mandatory military serrvice ended in Germany.
It is a book written in english which is available on Amazon and it is not sold at a high cost.

To find it, you must tape its title "Medical rape : state authorised german perversion" by Lars G Peterson with a picture on cover which shows a naked young men face to a wall exposing his nude back to two women dressed in labcoats, certainly a doctor and a nurse or a secretary behind a desk but only one of the two is looking at him, the other one is writing something on form.

I want to add that I have read the book, I have no reason to doubt of the truth of all the witnesses but I do not agree personnally with the title of the book.
After having read them, I don't think that it is right to talk of "rape " or of "perversion".
I have not found that these examinations were more humiliating than those of the past when the young draftees were instructed to report stark naked in front of all the members of the draft board commission.
I don't think that the gender of the medical persons was so much important as long as the draftees were examined one by one and never naked in group.

I have also found many weeks ago a link with a forum in german but I have never succed to find it again

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Roy
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Date Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012, 02:47: pm

Jean, are there any photos in the book you mention showing the naked humiliation of the draftees in front of females?
I agree with you though that this cannot be compared to rape and perversion, in a way, unless the examiners inserted their fingers inside the draftees' assholes for examination, especially by female examiners or in front of females. In which case this would be actual rape and perversion, under the excuse of medical examination.
In fact from what I hear this is sometimes done to male prisoners in jail during strip searches.
Can you describe some of the incidents mentioned in the book of how the German draftees were humiliated during the physicals?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012, 06:12: pm

There was only black and white drawings in the book which shows how were perfomed the examination at draft physicals and shows young men naked in front of women doctors, nurses or secretaries.

In most of them, we can see the draftee exposing their genitals face to the doctors or bending over and spreading their cheeks to expose their assholes or walking in the nude in the exam room to let the doctors check their gait or sometimes being sometimes in underwear or briefs, sometimes stark naked waiting for their turn to be examined and so on ..

As regards a DRE for the german draftees, it seems, according to the witnesses in the book, that it was seldom practiced by the german military doctors. But almost all the doctors were women and all were assisted by a nurse or a secretary in the exam room ( it is difficult to know if they were nurses or secretaries because they did not perform any examination during all the time of the exam by the doctor) and there was always a visual inspection of the assholes with the instruction given to the young man to turn around and to bend over,so the young men were really exposing their assholes to the view of the women in the room. So when there was nevertheless in addition to the visual inspection a DRE, it was a woman who did the exam and therefore inserted her fingers in the asshole of each draftee in front of her assistant but there was not other spectators. I don't think that a medical exam practiced like that in a professional way had something to compare with rape and perversion. Of course, we can think that it was unnecessary but the doctors were only following rules edicted by the ministry of defence and it was not to humiliate deliberately the draftees.

And it was not like strip searches of male prisoners in jails which were seldom practiced in private in an exam room.

In the relation of the young german, it seems that they were more shocked by that part of the exam than by the genitals exam. But it was the purpose of the writer of the book to show that it was unfair and too much humiliating, so he had gathred only witnesses of young men very shocked, it do not shows that all the young men were shoched and minded about their draft physicals in front of a woman.

We know that the sense of modesty is a feeling which is not shared in the same level by all the persons, especially by young male teenagers of 18 age. Some young men examined by a woman in the nude can feel themselves humiliated while others had immediately forgotten their draft physicals once they went out of the medical center and they were not thinking that it was a real issue.

As regards the incidents mentioned in the book, it was for instance when there was four women, two doctors and two nurses or secretaries, because it was time to change of the medical staff and the newer ones wanted to see how were acting the former ones without thinking that it was more embarrassing for the young draftees.

it was also when the young men were summoned several times in a few years because they had been postponed the first time and they were submitted to the same exam each time.

But don't forget that they were never examined in group exposed to other guys or non commissioners officers or female clerks passing by.

IN fact, it was not very different of a medical check up performed by a doctor in an offfice, except that the exam was more thorough.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Иван
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 04:46: pm

Мне кажатся, что может быт вы русский? Я почитал Ваше сообщение о книге и думал "как русскии!" Я из США, но хотел бы беседовать с вам ... еслм вы думаете это возможно. Ни пуха ни пера.)

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Vladimir to Ivan
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Date Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012, 11:51: am

Ivan, ja imel pervij medosmotr v voenkomate v Rossii, kogda ja bil 16. Mi prohodili ego v trusah, no u hirurga nado bilo spuskatj ih do kolen i pokazivatj pered i zad. Tak bilo.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Curious
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Date Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012, 03:49: pm

Has this forum gone Russian?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Curious
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Date Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012, 04:11: pm

Are there any accounts, in English, of Russian draft physicals?
I don't mean pictures, of which we have seen many, although these seem to be mostly Ukranian rather than Russian, which was part of the former Soviet Union.
I mean actual verbal accounts by the draftees, medical persons, and female office workers involved, as in the German book referred to by Jean the Frenchie.
From the pictures we have seen of these former Soviet states it seems that nudiity of the young draftees was very common in front of female medical staff and also female clerical staff.

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Gary (naked guys viet nam era)
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Date Posted: Monday, March 25, 2013, 07:38: pm

Being in Viet Nam era service---in Viet nam i would just say from or induction physical to the end of our stint we had no privacy and it was just accepted a the norm and really not an issue with guys----Unless one had to be hospitalized we did not have to be naked in the presence of women---but nudity was so totally common young men would not beleive it today! This may seem like and odd recall---but the only thing i could never get used to was using the tiolet with absolutely no privacy--ever with lots of other guys right there doing the same thing--It must not have bothered other guys----some guys sat down and carried on conversations like they were at a bar---I,for one nev er got used to it----other nudity so common it ne ver bothered me

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
During premilitary physical
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Date Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012, 02:38: am

http://medosmotr.ucoz.com/_ph/29/2/459119444.jpg

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Vaccination during draft physical in Russia
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Date Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012, 02:52: am

http://medosmotr.ucoz.com/photo/prikolnye_risunki_medosmotr_voenkomat_armija/29-0-431

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012, 05:17: am

These funny drawings which can be considered as an illustration of the CFMN fetishism are taken from a russian book if I read well the language on internet.

It is not at all the kind of drawings in the book about draft physicals in Germany which are more realistic without any fantasy about sadistic situations.

I want to add some comments or ideas to my previous message.

First, we must consider that the young german draftees were all summoned the first time at 18 age or a little months after, and at that age, it is obvious that for those who were not used to be naked at medical examination at school or at a doctor's office, the draft physicals were very impressive since they were told to strip completely face to the medical persons in an exam room.
In the past where it was more common to be naked at physicals for a kid or a teenager, I doubt that the young boys would have been so upset to be instructed to be nude at draft physicals.

When I read the witnesses of draftees, I notice also that many were complaining about the coldness of the doctors and nurses or secretaries about their embarrassment. It seems that these women were generally rather middle age women for the doctors and rather young women for the nurses or secretaries and that the lady doctors were rather authoritarian persons who talked to the boys as if they gave them orders and who had permanently a stern face.
But it seems to me logical that the writter of the book had chosen the witnesses wich illustrates the best his ideas but I presume that all the lady doctors were not like that, some were certainly rather nice and with maternal manners with boys of 18 age, more over if they were middile age women and had sons of that age.

To illustrate the "incidents" which were mentioned in the book and best answer to "Roy", I have found other instances.

A few young men are relating that there was a curtain in the exam room but the lady doctors told them to go behind the curtain to strip completely, to put their clothes on a chair, and then once naked to come back immediately in the center of the room for the examination, while the lady doctors could have performed the exam behind the curtain to protect the young examinees from the view of the nurses or secretaries. They were upset by this obvious disregard of their modesty while it was possible to act differently.

Nevertheless others related that they had noticed that there was no curtains at all, so I presume that it was depending on military medical centers.

They were also upset to be instructed to strip completely immediately after their entrance in the exam room by a lady doctor with a strict voice who did not tolerate any sign of reluctance to obey or any loose of time, while once they were naked, no examination beguan. They were instructed to stand on the spot, face to the lady doctor, with their arms along the sides of the body, without any move, and the lady doctor sometimes took time to read the medical form to know the results of the former exams, especiallty the lab exams or the X ray exams. So it seems to some examinees unfair and not necessary to be in the nude and to stand without moving and completely exposed for a while during all the time that the lady doctors were reading the medical forms, they told that the opposite would have been more logical and less embarrassing, and it is true, that means first the lady doctors read the medical forms and only after they told to the examinees to strip.
What was the medical interest to have the male teenagers stark naked and ready to be examined if the first step of the examination was only to read their medical forms ?

may be to be able to check by the view something which would have been written in the medical forms ? not sure of that, may be there was no reason at all, only routine in the process of the ecxamination.

Generally, the lady doctor and the nurses or secretaries were sitting behind a desk on the same side of the room but sometimes the desk of the nurse was on the left or the right, and one young man of 18 age very impressive by his examination related that the two desks were facing on each side of the exam room and that he was instructed to strip and to stand on a spot at the center of the room just between the two desks, he related that he was humiliated to feel permanently that he was exposed mainly back to the view of the nurse and that she could see his bare buttocks all the time. When he was told to turn around, it was not better and he looked at one spot on the wall straight above him to escape the view of the face of the nurse. That boy was also complaining about one comment of the nurse who said to the doctor while he was examined face to her that she could see after when he would turn around that he had very cute buttocks.

In the witnesses of some nurses who had been questionned, they said that they did not think that it was unfair to tell the boys to strip completely because it was necessary to check if they were fit or not for military service and that was required by regulations edited by the army and that it had always been practiced like that for draft physicals. Some added that after a few days of physicals, they did not care at all about the nudity of the examinees, it was a routine examination for her but a few ones added that it was more pleasant for them when the examinees were in good health and rather athletic boys and good looking and had cute buttocks like it was often the case with young male teenagers because they could see them exposed during a great part of the examination.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Roy
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Date Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012, 02:21: pm

Jean, it is interesting that the nurses and secreraries admitted that they enjoyed the view of the naked buttocks and nudity of the young draftees, especially the athletic ones.
I have no doubt that making the boys stand naked in the middle of the room while the female doctor was reading the paper reports before the exam was
probably set up primarily for the females viewing enjoyment. Even the remarks by some young nurses or secreraries about the boys buttocks during these exams, which the book mentions, proves this.
These women knew that they had total authority over the teenage draftees and used it to full advantage. They obviously also knew that the boys were embarrassed and humiliated by this procedure, which probably increased these women's pleasure.
As you, and the book, says, the draftees could have been given some privacy by being examined behind the screen, instead of making them stand naked in the middle of the room in full view of the nurse and secretary.
Does the book say that secretaries were always present to watch the naked draftees, or could it be two young nurses present?
Also does it say that the young draftees were always examined one by one or in groups?

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Embarrassing exam
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Date Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012, 02:56: am

http://www.telemachus12.com/franco/franco_a_visit_from_uncle_original.jpg

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Another embarrassing exam
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Date Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012, 02:59: am

http://medosmotr.ucoz.com/photo/29-0-419-3

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Nurse Julie
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Date Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012, 06:20: pm

"Let's see what you got there, boy."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Judy.L.Y.
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Date Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012, 07:10: pm

Indeed Yes ! Nurse Julie

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
School nurse
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 10:53: am

Perhaps, Tanner evaluation?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Question
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 04:17: pm

"Are you sexual active already?"

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Rodger (about innoculations in army)
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 07:46: pm

My father was in Vietnam war, and he told me about being in a line of naked guys getting innoculations. He was smiling when he told me about coming to one station with a female giving shots

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Judy.L.Y.
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Date Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012, 10:09: pm

Interesting link.

http://www.liveinternet.ru/tags/%EC%E5%E4%EE%F1%EC%EE%F2%F0/

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Judy.L.Y.
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Date Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012, 07:16: pm

The Real Thing.
http://medosmotr.ucoz.com/_ph/11/2/694909592.jpg

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Nate
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 02:40: pm

You do like to see pictures like that, eh, Judy?

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
visitor
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 07:30: pm

The woman on the left - looks like a photoshop paste. The lighting does not match the rest of the photo.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Judy.L.Y.
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 10:50: pm

Nate;Why not.
Visitor; I noted that looks shopped but I like it.

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[> [> Subject: Translation of the text from Russian


Author:
Betsy RN
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Date Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012, 12:56: am


medical check-up girls
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 15:41 ( link )
When I was in medical school, we also had a commission in the military. Everything was very similar to what is written here Kate. And even worse. The Commission has on this day the girl came from several groups. The guys took the other day. All brought into the locker room and asked to undress to their underwear. At the same time, we learned from the nurse that the surgeon's office we will have to completely undress. Our girls had tried to rebel when they learned that the surgeon will have to strip naked, but the nurse immediately announced that a failure to undergo the commission without a good reason we may be expelled from the institute. But the punishment can cause to remove bras, and in this form to walk on all cabinets. Like it or not, we do not know, but after that everything fell silent ... So we also went in his underwear.
We went to a surgeon at a time. There were four people - all men. Moreover, only one of them was wearing a white robe, and the rest did not even disguise - were just in a military uniform. We were told that this is a committee of the hospital. I have not had time to think about how I'll undress in front of this "commission", and how to ask to go outside, as a doctor (the one currently) already commands - remove clothes and put on a stool. I took off my bra and put it - the last hope was illusory to undress completely. I went over to him in his underpants. The doctor says - "Girl, I've clearly said - remove clothes. Shoot quickly pants and do not hold your check." And, of course, staring at my pants in anticipation, I'll shoot them. And imagine, I stand before them and take off his briefs ... bit of shame through the earth is not a failure. Own fault - I had to shoot it all at once. More about the same as what has been described only in the office with the other girls were not. This aerobics - to bend, straighten, rotate, bend forward, bend back, do five squats with legs apart, hands behind his head and jump on the spot. Imagine what it was like girls with big breasts ... Now, I understand that no medical evidence to the fact that the girl jumped and everyone looked like her breasts were shaking, no. But where we were then to go - all did everything we talked about. The breast is also feeling the doctor. Then, standing with bent legs wide apart and hands on the floor at the feet of the line, apart of the buttocks, then write about how the guys. The breast is also feeling the doctor. Then, standing with bent legs wide apart and hands on the floor at the feet of the line, apart of the buttocks, then write about how the guys. It was terribly embarrassing to stand bent over with her ​​legs spread wide apart, and buttocks. I stood for several minutes, a doctor at this time put a gloved finger into the rectum and doing inspections. Then he parted the lips and examining the external genitalia. At the same time asked if I live a sexual life. I at that time was still a girl, so you can imagine what I was ... Probably from being able to not cry, I kept only what I myself was a future doctor and knew it was a medical examination and the doctor does his work. The fact that at my crotch and sticking his chest watching another 3 man, there was no time to think ...
So as you can see, if for some reason the girls get on to the military commission, that are exactly the same "execution", as and boys. After working as a doctor, I am much more relaxed attitude to such inspections. If I had to go through another such inspection, it would have reacted to it much quieter - and I have often examined the men at work, and I also watched male gynecologists and surgeons - physicians are sensitively related to each other in the examinations. I never think about the necessity of a pose during the inspection - if the doctor says it so easy then to see what he looks at the moment. The more accurate inspection, the better for the patient. I wish you all success and not get sick!
In general, anything can happen on the examinations. When I went to last year at college for a visit to the gynecologist, you got a young guy, probably 1-2 years of work. Prior to that worn in the city and the bathroom is small does not have time to go sightseeing. Lay on a chair, he started watching me - says full bladder interferes. This is true, it really interferes with inspection. I get off the chair, and he gives me a tray - urinate here. And right in front of him, of course. Where I had to go - the village and help ... Of course, also very ashamed to sit in front of him, but on the other hand - what is this? Dress, go to the toilet - a waste of time. And behind the door - all.
So, my advice - girls, never mind, let doctors watch what they want - it's their job. physical count, physical examination, medical check-up girls

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Paul
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 10:00: pm

Once you get to the induction center they own you. If you voice any protest or complaint they can have you arrested for obstructing the draft. A lawyer told me this. I was in a group of about 45 guys lined up in this hallway when this jerk comes up and takes five of us to another part of the floor. We are all in our shorts. He tells me to in this room. I enter, move past this curtin, and there stands this female doctor, stethoscope dangling from her ears. She motions me to move towards her. She says to open wide and sticks a tongue blade half way down my throat. She then listens briefly to my heart and lungs. I am told to sit in a chair where another woman measures my blood pressure. AS the cuff is inflating on my arm, I notice that there are six women sitting at tables about 20 feet from where I am. One of them is a girl I graduated high school with. When the cuff is removed from my arm the doctor tells me to stand up and remove my shorts. She does the hernia check. She then instructs me to bend over and spread my cheeks "as far as possible" I could see that this former classmate of mine is transfixed on what is happening to me. I felt a lot of pressure when she went up inside of me and I know I winced. I have had a female for my personal physician for over ten years now. She does the hernia and prostate checks on me but they never feel like I expierenced then. The girls name was Roberta and she got to see me humiliated. It was a rotten thing to go through. To have someone you know see you examined in that way. Like a piece of meat. I just Know she talked about it. I'm convinced that this was done to me and the others just for entertainment. But what can you do about it?

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Steven
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Date Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 10:06: pm


I recall the draft physical from 1969--it is all that other guys talk about. I think it really comes down to one thing that makes the draft physical different. It was the fact taht at one point - in a large group you each had to bend over spread your butt crack and show your butt hole for exam by the doctor. Just as you had seen the guys in the rows in front of you doing the same thing -- you knew that anyone in the rows behind you was now looking at your open butt crack. In our case ther was a guy with a flashlight that went with the doctor- and shined the light on your hole as he examined. For some reason- I was more embarrassed-- that it was with all guys I had gone all through school with. I do not know why that would make it worse-- but it did for me-- Otherwise if you think about it --it was no different really from locker room situations or sports physicals--. We may have often been naked with guys-- but basicaly no one sees your bare butt hole--- I am sorry to sound gross-- but that seems to be it.

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Curious to Paul
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Date Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012, 05:55: am

Paul, what were the six girls doing in the exam room?
From the sound of it they were not medical persons or a draft board, being all females and so young.
Could they have been students, or just clerks from the draft office having been arranged for them to satisfy their curiosity about the naked guys being examined?
It would certainly have been a humiliating experience standing naked and examined in front of all those girls.
But as you say, there was no place for complaints in those military draft centers, so anything could be arranged, even to satisfy the curiosity of office girls.
Did you ever get an explanation for this, and did the other guys in your group also have the same experience?

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Paul to Curious
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Date Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:23: am

Could they have been students, or just clerks from the draft office having been arranged for them to satisfy their curiosity about the naked guys being examined? -
- Perhaps, they were clerks there because much papers and folders were on the table, but I'm not sure.

It would certainly have been a humiliating experience standing naked and examined in front of all those girls. -
- You tell it me? I was mortified when was standing naked in front my classmate and, especially, when I had to bend over and spread my cheeks "as far as possible" in front doc, but, in reality, Roberta, my classmate, as other 5,could see my crack, balls and butt hole!

Did you ever get an explanation...? -
Are you kidding? Which explanations were there?

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[> Subject: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
Thomas
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Date Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012, 05:02: pm

It is interesting, but puzzling, that embarrassment is often worse when the exposure is in front of someone you know, even if it is a relative. Paul's major source of embarrassment was the girl he graduated with, not the other girls who were also watching his physical.

There was a post a while ago from a man whose wife's niece was a newly minted nurse. When the girl learned that the man was going to have elective hernia surgery, she offered to be his private duty nurse in the hospital. He was glad to accept that arrangement. She even told him she would be there the evening he was admitted to help "prep" him for the early-morning operation.

Later, he asked a nurse who was his neighbor about what he could expect in the hospital. He was floored when she told him that the night before surgery he would be shaved from his nipple-line to mid-thigh. He turned red just hearing that the young nurse would be doing that shave for him.

He was beside himself trying to figure a way to get out of his arrangement with the girl. He finally came up with the idea that he could "forget" to call her when the final date was given him by his surgeon. That's just what he did.
He was shaved, of course, by one of the hospital nurses, and it was embarrassing, but not nearly as bad as it would have been with his wife's niece doing it.

He couln't explain it, and neither can I, but it seems most of us are more embarrassed by relatives than with total strangers. Does anyone else have an explanation?

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[> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 10:14: am

"Thomas" : you are right to underline that the major source of embarrassment of "Paul" in the relation of his draft physicals was to be examined naked in front of a girl who had been his classmate at school when he noticed her presence very close from the spot of the examination without any protection and that she was looking with interest to his privates examination, including when he had to expose his cracks, butts and asshole.

When you were no more a kid, it is always more embarrassing to be examined for private parts in front or at the view of a relative.

In the relation of the draft physicals by "Paul", it was obviously the same for the other guys who were send by a non comissioner officer at that floor to be examined by a lady doctor who was available to perform the most embarrassing part of their draft physicals while the others were examined by male doctors on the ground floor.

Anyway, like "Paul" said, it was not only the exposure in the nude to the lady doctor and even the young girls who was embarrassing, it was more the fact that the doctor gave him a more thorough exam than those he have had before at schools at least for the visual inspection of the anus and the fingers in the asshole. That kind of examination was common at draft physicals, I had been a litlle surprised but I have had the same exam in France for military service, I was instructed also to bend over and to spread my cheeks large apart to let a doctor look inside my asshole before he put in it his fingers, but it was not performed by a lady doctor and in the view of young women as spectators. We can imagine that it was more embarrassing when you knew one the young woman who could see all the examination, including the most intimate part when the lady doctor put her fingers in your asshole.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
Illustration
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 10:40: am

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls1esziTg61qids80.jpg

Let imagine, it was done in front young women - clerks and nurses!

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
Judy.L.Y.
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Date Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012, 10:12: pm

Feel the LOVE ^

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012, 04:57: pm

Or better yet, done by a young woman.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
tom
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012, 04:26: pm

Now here's a good one. I volunteer in an ER. I've been there for quite sometime and know all the docs, nurses and techs very well. Anyone who has worked in this type of environment will tell you there is no shame among the staff. They talk about body parts like they were monoply money. After a while even I became comfortable with the language.

There's a 40ish female doc who is very bubbly and friendly. I've know her for years. One night I was sitting in a remote part of the ER (it was quiet that night) and she sat next to me writing some paperwork. She asked how I was doing and I made a joke saying my "plumbing was swollen". She laughed and asked what's wrong. I told her I thought my epydidimus was swollen and I should go see my doc. In a very matter of fact manner she said she could take a quick look. She really caught me off guard but I said yes.

We went into one of the exam rooms and closed the door. She put on gloves, I dropped my pants and shorts and she sat and examined my testicles. She said I had an infection (common) and said she would give me a script. Afterwards we went back to the desk and she carried on her paperwork and we chatted about a variety of topics as if nothing had happened.

Some may think I was nuts but this kind of stuff does not bother me and she was really cool with it. So here's a case where knowing the person was a good thing and both of us accustomed to a hospital environment made the situation very unique.

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[> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
Arthur (Boys are embarrassed by mom more)
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 12:01: pm


Answer from big survey about medical exam for teens:

Would you rather have a nurse or your mom in the room while completely nude?If you had to have one or the other.
30% (156)
mom
74% (387)
nurse
517 voters have answered this question.

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 12:24: pm

I wan to answer to some questions of " Roy" in his message of the 26 april about the german draft physicals.

First, in the book, the writer does not say if the women who were assistants of the women doctors were nurses or secretaries.
One thing is sure : all were dressed in white labcoats, but the writer doubts that they were all nurses and me too : as they had almost nothing to do in the exam room except taking notes, they could be either nurses either clerks or secretaries, none of the witnesses can tell us who they were.
I believe personnally that they were most of the time nurses but that sometimes they could have been secretaries if there was a lack of available nurses as it could have happened certainly in some medical military centers or at some days.

But even if some nurses or secretaries could be young women, all were nevertheless older than the young draftees who were examined, at least for those who were examined the first time at 18 age. It was not as in the relation of "Paul's draft physicals.

As regards a screen or a curtain to protect more the examinees during the private examination, as I have myself said (it is what I have read in the book), most of the female doctors did not use it and it is not explained why they did not use it in the book, you said that it was to humiliate more the young men, may be it was the reason, but it could be also more simple, the female doctors were used to perform all the examinations in that way according to the rules of examination decided by the military authorities, may be they have been told to proceed like that because the curtain or the screen were considered as useless for draft physicals since the draftees had not to be modest according to the rules applied since so much years at draft physicals and the lady doctors were told to do not mind at all about the modesty of the young men and their embarrrassment.

The major reason of complaing about the attitude of the women doctors was in my opinion that the women doctors instructed to the draftees to strip completely while they were reading the medical form. Such an attitude is not common in an examination, more over when there is an other person in the exam room who can see the examinee in the nude as it was the case.

About the curtain or the screen, I have said also that in some exam rooms, there was no curtains or screens, so it was certainly not programmed in the medical military centers that the examination of the draftees might necessary be performed behind a curtain or a screen. It was not considered as a necessary equipment.

As regards the young men who were standing in the middle of the room in full view of the nurse or the secretary, it was not the most common situation, it was only in a few witnesses.

And It was no more common to have nurses or secretaries who made some comments about the draftee's buttocks, it was seldom in the book, only one draftee related a comment of a nurse about his naked buttocks to complain about his humiliation to be treated like cattle, and a few, two or three nurses, questioned by the writer about their feelings during the examination of the german young draftees were recognizing that they enjoyed the view of their naked buttocks and nudity but none talked about the enjoyment to see their naked genitals, it is certainly because it is more easier for a woman to recognize her interest at the view of the naked buttocks of male young men since it makes laugh generally as we can see it in movies theaters when there are scenes of draft physicals in the nude in movies with draftees shown from the back.

So we cannot say that it was the casual attitude or opinion of the women present in the exam room.
But as you say, these women knew obviously that they had a total authority over the teenage draftees according to the rules of the military authorities for the mandatory draft and that they could used it to their full advantage. We cannot know if the embarrassment of the young men increased the women's pleasure, may be for a few of them.

But don't forget that this is only related in a few witnesses.

As regards your last question " Does the book say that secretaries were always present to watch the naked draftees or could it be two young nurses?"

I cannot answer since it is not said in the book, it is only said that in a few cases, there was more than two women in the examination room, they were four women, two doctors and two nurses or secretaries, and it is said that it was because of a change of the medical staff when two new women were beguinning to perform draft physicals and were explained by the former ones how to proceed with the draftees. It lasted generally for a morning. The draftees who were examined that morning were not lucky but it is life! it might be a shock for them to discover that there was four women to look at their examination instead of only two as some of their fellows could have said to them.

You also asked if the young draftees were always examined one by one or in groups.
In the witnessses of the book, they were always examined one by one and the door of the examination room was closed. Nothing is related about their weigh-in but as it is said that they were allowed to keep a swim suit when they were instructed to undress, we can presume that they were weighted in groups but still wearing a swimsuit, never naked, at least at the time of these witnesses which were rather recent, and that they came after in the waiting room still in swimsuits before being called one by one for the thorough examination.

Whayt is also interesting in the book is that some young men gave witnesses of second or three examinations after a first deferment and the process of the examination was always the same with the same examination of the genitals, the same palpation of the testicles and the foreskin retracted and also the same visual inspection of the anus like at the first examination.

For those who had chosen not to do their active service in the army but in a social job as it was possible in germany, thre was no difference for the first examination in a medical military center where they were also summoned and they had a second examination before beguinning their social in a community medical center and they said that it was exactly the same process of examination except of course that they were examined by civilian doctors and nurses, not by military doctors, but apparently the rules ofexamination were the same as in the army, all the exams were performed in the same way.

A comment also about the witnesses of a few nurses who worked in the military medical centers, they said that they had been hired by the army after their students to do that job and that it was a good situation for them because they had not too much responsability, they had only to work for some hours by day and they were always in presence of young men who were generally in good health. They said that it was arguments given by the military officers to convince them to join volontarily the army. " you will have to assist doctors at draft physicals each day for a few hours and you will not have any issue with the draftees who were forced to obey by the law to your instruction during these physicals". And they did not regret their choice of job when they discovered all the advantages of their situation even if it was more pleasant at the beguinning when they were discovering what was exactly their job with the great number of young men to examin each day and how the examinations were performed as long as they were not already so used to the draft physicals that it became rather a routine examination and a little boring!

One nurse who was hired by a community medical center for physicals of young men said exactly the same about the arguments used to make her ask for such a job in the community center and she did not regret her choice. She had much time for her family outside of the job and she said that it was not a difficult job since the young men were always under control and forced to do what they were told if they wanted to obtain the social job. So in her opinion, it was perfect like that.
None of the nurses questioned expressed anything about the embarrassment of the young german examinees at the military medical center or at the community medical center. They told to the writer that they did not think that it was unfair to treat like that the young men since the draft was mandatory by law and that all young men had to be examined by law to decide if they were fit or not. They said that they had no responsability in the rules for the process of the draft physicals because all was decided by the authorities of the ministry of defense,and they were applying the rules explained in special medical forms devoted to draft physicals for draft and they had no choice than to respect these rules at each center. It was not them to have decided that the young men in age to join the army might be naked at the draft physicals but it was not an issue for them.

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[> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 12:42: pm

To "Arthur" : your result is enough logical, I am not surprised of it.

As we have said before, the presence of a relative at a physical examination is the most embarrassing for a male teenager if he is naked during the physicals, and especially that of the mother for a teenage boy.
The presence of a nurse is not so embarrassing because normally he did not know her.

As a little kid under 8 or 10 years, the answer would have certainly be different but a male teenager, at least at our time, is generally modest with his parents, even with his mother.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 01:19: pm

to "illustration" :

I presume that your picture is not a fake
anyway, it can be real for a digital rectal examination when a doctor, male or female, inserts the fingers in the asshole of the patient.

You said that it might be more embarrassing when it was practiced in front of women as spectators.

you are certainly right, I have not experienced such a situation myself because when I had, as an adult, a DRE, it was always made by a doctor who was more frequently a woman than a man, but without any other presence in the examination room, except that of a nurse as an assistant for a more thorough exam, a biopsy.

It is obvious that in the army such an examination might be very embarrassing if it happened like in the relation of "Paul" with a female doctor inserting her fingers in your asshole with a great pressure while six young women were sitting at tables about 20 feet from where you were and who were able to look at your examination, including this rectal examination. We can easily imagine the embarrassment of all the draftees examined like that.

In the relation of "Steven" , it was a little less embarrassing since there was only a visual inspection of the anus, even if it means that the draftees had to bend over and to spread large apart their cheeks. But it was in front of the other draftees since the examination was performed in group and as he said it was more embarrassing than all the situations of nudity that he had known at schools when the students were nude in a locker room for changing for sport or in a shower area or at school or sport physicals. He said that he was used to nudity together with his classmates but not in that way like at draft physicals.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012, 01:29: pm

to "Betsy" :

thank you for the translation from Russia but I have not understood what was this examination of girls.

you said first that it was a medical check up for girls but after you said that it was a in medical school and that they had also a commission with the military. What does it mean?
I never heard of a mandatory military service for girls in Russia ?

so why you said that the boys were summoned one day and the girls an other day ?

If it was normal school physicals, why do you talk of a commission with the military ?

I have never heard of mandatory physicals for russian students under the supervision of the army,

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012, 04:29: am

a comment about a picture posted by "Judy" on april 26

The Real Thing.
http://medosmotr.ucoz.com/_ph/11/2/694909592.jpg

this picture that Judy likes is obviously not real

I have already seen in other forums the real photo which had been edited in "Time magazine", we see only a line of naked draftees, no women at all to supervise them,

as it was said by "Visitor" on april 29, it is obvious that the women look like a photoshop paste. The lighting does not match the rest of the photo.

Judy has herself recognized that it was a photoshopped picture

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: It's Often Worse With Someone You Know


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012, 04:35: am

to a former message of "stephen"

I agree with your statements

Even if to be naked whith other boys at school in a locker room or a shower area and to be seen naked or to see other boys naked was not something so uncommon, I had also experienced it at school, it was really much more embarrassing at draft physicals.

and especially the exposure of the butts hole was degrading in the process of the draft physicals without any privacy even when there was no women present as it was the case for me.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re:modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012, 05:03: am

Some more comments for "Curious"

He has asked to "Paul" some questions about his relation of his draft physicals on april 30.

"Paul, what were the six girls doing in the exam room?
From the sound of it they were not medical persons or a draft board, being all females and so young.
Could they have been students, or just clerks from the draft office having been arranged for them to satisfy their curiosity about the naked guys being examined?"

In my opinion, if they were here, it was because they had been hired to work as clerks at the draft office center as it was often the case at that time.

"Paul " answered to you that thre was much papers and folders on the table. So it is a clue that they were working as clerks!

I cannot imagine an other plausible reason, they could not have been there because the military authorities of the draft center wanted to humilite the boys by allowing girls students to look at their examination. It is not serious.

Don't forget that normally the boys examinees would not have been examined at that part of the floor, and most of them were not exposed during their examination at the view of these girls, it happened accidentally for a few of the boys because the lady doctor was available and the draftees were so numerous that the authorities who supervised the process of the physicals had thought that it was a good idea to take some of the boys and to send them in front of the lady doctor to win time!

It was not deliberately provokated.

But you are right to write that "it would certainly have been a humiliating experience standing naked and examined in front of all those girls".

I understand when "Paul" answered to you that "he was mortified when he was standing naked in front of his classmate and, especially, when he had to bend over and spread his cheeks "as far as possible" in front of the doctor, but, in reality, Roberta, my classmate, as other girls,could see hismy crack, balls and butt hole!"

Of course, it was a degrading experience for him and the fact that he received the instruction to spread his cheeks "as far as possible" increased obviously his humiliation even if this instruction was not uncommon, it was generally given in such an examination, I have had personnally the same instruction ar my draft physicals in France but not in the view of girls!

And as you say and as it is said by "Paul" in his answer, there was of course no place for complaints in these military draft centers.

But it was not as you said " so anything could be arranged, even to satisfy the curiosity of office girls"

In my opinion, nothing was arranged but it happened.

And of course, it was impossible to ask for an explanation for that siotuation and no explanation was given, to these "poor" and unlucky draftees.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re:modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Curious
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012, 09:33: am

Jean, I do not agree with you that this was not arranged.
I think Paul stated that there was a private screen where the female doctor could have examined him, but purposely exposed him in front of the girls.
He also said that she told him to strip completely in the middle of the room even during the paper and questions stage before the exam, which was also unnecessary.
So it is obvious that it was all set up for the girls to have a good and prolonged view of the naked draftees.

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Steve
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012, 09:37: am

One reason military physicals are done the way they are done is to prepare new inductees to follow orders to the letter without question or comment. Can you imagine having a whiner in basic training, or in combat, saying "I don't want to do that..."... That doesn't work, period. I am not defending how the military does things, because I sure didn't enjoy my induction physical either, but having been there and done that, I can understand where they are coming from. When I went into the US Army in 1974, they were still training recruits for Vietnam, so our BCT was pretty intense. Those Drill Sergeants knew what they were doing, and their goal was to turn raw recruits into soldiers...period.

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012, 06:28: pm

"Steve" I agree with your comments about the idea that the draft physicals were in a certain way devoted to prepare new inductees to follow all orders without any question or complaint that was the reality of military life

As regards the last message of "curious" : on the opposite, I disagree, I cannot believe that there could be an arrangement to let the young girls have the opportunity to look at the draft physicals of some young men, it happened unvolontarily because it was not considered as an issue.
of course, if a male young draftee had complained, he would have been told that he had no right except that to obey all orders and that the presence of the girls did not change something, the army did not want that the draftees acted like "sissies" and so on .... ,it does not mean that you are right in your comments

As I have said before for the german draft physicals, it was rather logical to not use a private screen at draft physicals since the army did not think that the draftees needed any respect of their modesty and the fact that the doctor was a woman did not change anything for the army in my opinion, neither the presence of girls working at tables close to the examination.
you added "He also said that she told him to strip completely in the middle of the room even during the paper and questions stage before the exam, which was also unnecessary"
it was the same in Germany, so it was common to proceed like that at draft physicals.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Reb
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Date Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012, 08:43: pm

Gotta tell ya. I am more upset about the stupid war than I am about being naked. Yeah, I had to get naked, just like I had to do from the YMCA to Junior High, to High School, thru College. I got over being naked with no long term physical or mental damage. Lots of folks didn't get over the war though. About the only good thing to come out of that war was some significant advancements in emergency medical treatment and it instilled in me a healthy mistrust of government. That mistrust has, over the years, proven to be well founded.

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Friday, May 04, 2012, 04:16: am

still one comment :

I have talked of the draft in Germany before it ended last year.

I think that it is interesting to notice that the mandatory military service which was again decided in Germany many years after the second war world was not the only way to do the active duty for a young german boy.

either they chose to do it in the army as in the past when the military service was really mandatory, either they chose to do it in a social job as a conscientious objector with was allowed by law.

But anyway, they were first summoned to report in a military medical center for a medical examination as all draftees. And I have already related how it was managed in the recent years.

what was more surprising was that they were examined a second time if they chose to be a conscientious objector, they were summoned to report for that second physicals in a community medical center and the process of their examination was exactly the same.

The medic persons who performed the examination were following the same rules as described in miltary medical forms, that means that the young men had a check of their genitals, a palpation of their testiclers, a check of the foreskin retracted and a visual inspection of the anus, even if all these exams were performed only a few time before in a military medical center, it could be only a few weeks after.

And the examination was always performed one by one in an examination room as in medical military centers by pretty always women doctors assisted by female nurses, it was exactly the same even if these medic persons were not military persons hired by the army.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Curious
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Date Posted: Friday, May 04, 2012, 04:29: pm

Jean, I do not understand how this book about German draft physicals talks about rape and humiliation, as its title says, when the draftees were examined in private one by one by a female doctor with just a nurse present. This is normal even when one goes to a doctor sometimes, or even in a hospital.
So what is so humiliating or degrading about it? Unless I have missed or forgot something about what you said in other posts about it.
For example were the draftees exposed naked in front of civilian or military women or office girls?
From the other accounts we have heard it was much worse in America, Russia and other countries where the draftees were paraded naked in groups from before the exams in front of everyone present, including female office staff.

Also you say that the book has drawings, not photos, of these German physicals. Can you post some of them?

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 09, 2012, 12:42: pm

As I have told before, I share your surprise about the title of the book.

I can undestand that these german young men were more modet that most of the boys at the same age in a far past and they did not like to examined by two women in that way, but anyway, I have not found in all the witnesses any attitude or behaviour which would deserve the use of the word of rape, and even the word humiliation could be discussed by some persons used to draft physicals in the nude in the past, may be it was a little too strong and it was rather embarrasssment which would have been the good word.

May be the writer was very upset by the idea of women performing examination on naked young men even if it was one by one, also he criticized the way in which the examination was managed, he thought that the obvious disregard of the modesty of the boys was shocking and really unfair and he is not wrong on that point, it was a little different of what could have happened in a hospital or a medical clinic.

You asked me again if the dratees were exposed naked in front of civilian or military women or ofice girls, I can only repeat my answer, they were only exposed naked in the examination room and most of the time in front of two women, one was always a doctor, the other was dressed in a labcoat, so either she was a nurse, either she was a secretary since she was here only to take notes, but I am not sure that it changed anything in the situation since she was dressed like a nurse and the young man examinee could not know.

No other women never entered in the examination and could see the young men naked, except in some cases when there was a change of the medical staff but it was only medic persons or may be a secretary dressed like a nurse among these staff and whose job was to assist daily the female doctor at these draft physicals.

For me, as I have said, even if I have noticed like the writer that the nudity was not always required for so much a long time or in such a way, it was not surprising to be nude at draft physicals, it would have been the opposite which would have surprised me!.

It is true that it could habe been much more degrading if they would have had to parade naked in group in front of a lot of persons, including female office staff, as it was in other countries.

About the drawings of the book, I am sorry but i don't know what I can post some of them as I have no digital camera to do a picture but normally you can buy the book on Amazone and he is written in english.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 09, 2012, 01:01: pm

to "Betsy "or anybody else who has understood her last message:

I asked again : what does it mean that a medical school where there was girls had a commission with the military ?

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[> [> [> [> Subject: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
Alan
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 09, 2012, 04:13: pm

I read that book on the German musterung and found it quite interesting. The author has a point, and although not well written and at times repetitive it contained enough examples of bad behavior and insensitive treatment to make the case, assuming what was reported was true. I finished reading it convinced what was reported were true incidents, and that they negatively affected some men severely.

Major points were nude exams, foreskin manipulations, testicle and penis exams, etc., all done by teams of doctors and nurses which were almost always women. In some cases, boys got erections which were commented on in an amused fashion by the "nurse" assistants, and one case where a naked boy with a full erection was made to endure a complete exam for over ten minutes by a woman doctor and her female assistance. He reported he was mortified by the experience and still is haunted by it years later. Apparently the doctor and her assistance were amused by his condition. In other situations, nurses commented on the erection, saying things like "nice penis" and smiling, etc.

The overall sense I got from the book was that some young men were traumatized by the experience, but I got no sense of how widespread this outcome was.

There were extensive quotes from women practitioners, boys and young men examined, and various authorities defending the practice scattered throughout the book. There were even examples of ads aimed at finding women doctors and nurses to do the exams, jobs which apparently do not pay very well.

The pictures were odd. They were the type where the photo is treated in some way to make the outlines clear but the inner detail somewhat blurred. They showed exams in various stages of progress.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
Curious
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 09, 2012, 05:37: pm

Judging by the accounts, there was nothing unusual or abusive about these physicals. Even the genital exams were normal for a thorough medical inspection.
For boys and young men that age it would not be unusual to get an erection while standing naked and having their genitals manipulated for examination.
The author seems to primarily object that these exams were made by women, but these were qualified medical persons, and only the doctor and nurse were presen. So I don't see how a young man could be "traumatised" by such an experience, apart from some embarassment
Actually a nurse saying to the boy "You have a nice penis" is a compliment and encouragement to make the boy feel more confident during the exam.
So all in all, I think that considering that this was a forced exam for a call-up draft, and that the army usually doesn't have much choice about doctors, it could have been much worse. At least some form of privacy was respected, although not ideal.
Btw, what was the youngest and most usual ages when these boys were called up to be examiined for draftees?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
Alan
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 04:39: am

Your opinion that overall there was nothing abusive about these physicals was the same as mine before I read the book. But the testimonials from various people, I mean those examined and some of the examiners themselves, spoke so eloquently about how humiliated some of the boys and young men were changed my opinion. Although I don't think most would have a long-lasting reaction, or even feel extremely embarrassed at the time, clearly some did, and some did both. Also, a couple of the examiners -- assisting nurses -- said how they intentionally embarrassed some of the boys, and did so because they enjoyed it.

Most of those examined were around 17. Not sure about how young the youngest were.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
Alan
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 03:31: pm

Oh, two more things.

First, the book made a point of asking the question -- why was it so important for a military exam to focus on the condition of the boy's genitalia? That is, a big part of the exam was mandated by the state to include several manipulations of the foreskin, and careful and prolonged manipulations of the penis and testicles. Why? The answer, the book thought, was historical and intended to show the power of the state to do what it wanted with the soldier, just another example of the types of things most militaries include in their basic training. It was a carryover from earlier times, even prior to Hitler, when the same tests were done, but by male doctors.

Second, the conclusion I came to after reading the book was that the "musterung" did indeed produce a system sometimes of victims and sexual abusers. That is, most examinees were treated fairly and without obviously intended humiliation, or if they were intentionally humiliated were able to get through it and leave it behind them as just another distasteful military experience. But some examinees were not so lucky and it caused them problems long after the exams.

Likewise, and perhaps more importantly, although most of the doctor/nurse teams of female examainers (and almost all examiners were female) were professional about their work, some were clearly in it for kicks -- either they got a sexual charge out of it, or they loved the power of lording it over the boys through the humiliation of prolonged nakedness, sometimes while sporting erections.

This web site has examples of the pictures and some description of the author and the book in German.

http://www.larsgpetersson.com/military-abuse/erniedrigende-untersuchungen/

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Link to Article by Author In English


Author:
Bill
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 06:23: pm

If you liked that book, then you might also find the following article, written by Lars Petersson, interesting. There is also a rather lively discussion, in the form of reader comments and responses from the author, that follows the article.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
Curious
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012, 06:41: pm

Thanks for the link, although the text is in German.
Like you say, some of the procedures during these exams raises a lot of questions. Like the prolonged manipulatiion of the boys foreskin and genital handling by these female examiners, and why it was mostly female examiners that were chosen to carry out these exams.
Couid this have taken place by a few female examiners rather than being systematical and purposelly set up? Which is another questiion.
It is also true what you say that such employment attracts the kind of persons who get a sexual kick out of it, even if it is a low paid job for their relevant pofession.
This is also confirmed by accounts of females who work in juvenile detention centers for teenage boys, who confirm that they enjoy the nudity and humiliation of the boys as part of their work in these centers.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012, 04:48: am

in a former message, "Alan" said : "Major points were nude exams, foreskin manipulations, testicle and penis exams, etc., all done by teams of doctors and nurses which were almost always women"

yes, it was said in all the witnesses but all these exams were casually performed at draft physicals, it was not a question of gender of the medical persons, male persons would have performed the same exams, and don't forget that they were performed in an examination room where the boys were examined one by one, not in large group like in the past which means that they had nevertheless a litte more privacy than in the more far past.

You added that a few young men were mortified and some were traumatized by this experience, I believe also what the writer had related and that the witnesses were true, but we had no idea about the number of young men who were traumatized, I thought personnally that they were certainly very few, because most of them forgot that examination very soon in my opinion, and those who could not forget their examination would have certainly not forgot more easily the same examination performed by male medical persons.

If a young man is very modest and could not endure to be nude, it was of course a very degrading experience but not much than in other countries.

There was only a very very few witnesses where it is said that the doctor and her assistant were amused by the situation, when a boy was obviously very embarrassed to expose his naked body at their view with sometimes an erection and it was very seldom in the relations that the female medic persons commented about the erection of the penis and smiled, in most of the cases, it was said that they were acting professionally.

Like You, I have been interested by reading all the quotes from women practicioners and various authorities defending the practice scatered through out the book and the examples of ads aimed at finding women doctors and nurses to do the exams and we can easily understand why. As these jobs were not well paid, the authorities were forced to try to interest women for rather than men because they thought that some arguments were more strong to attract women like the regularly hours and so on ... Nothing was strange in that attitude. It would have been the same in other countries if a mandatory draft would have been still maintained.

As regards the pictures, I think like "Allan " that they were odd because sometimes they showed exams in various stages of progrees which were not described in the wiitnesses. For instance, we could see a few boys in underwears or briefs standing in lineand waiting for an examination and we had none relations of such situations. In the witnesses, even if there were other pictures where they were naked face to women medic persons as it was related in the book. I believe that the pictures were not always convenioent to illustrate the witnesses related in the book.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012, 05:03: am

to "Curious" ; I agree with much of your comments.

Like you, I think that generally (of course, there could be some exceptions) there was nothing unusual about these draft physicals since a genital exam was normal for a thorough medical examination and it was not so uncommon for boys of that age to have an erection while standing naked and having their genitals manipulated for examination and even when the doctor was a male person.

Like you, I doubt a little that boys could be so traumatized by such an examination but It seems that it was the case for a few of them, certainly too much modest.

And as you said, considering that this was a forced exam for a call-up draft and that the army usually did not have much choice about doctors, it could have been worse, especially if they would have not been examined one by one.

As regards their age, it was said that it was about 18, sometimes 17 age for the youngest when they were reaching 18 age a few time after their physicals.

But as some boy had several exams because they were posponed the first time, they could be a little too much old.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012, 05:28: am

to the last message of "curious" :

Apparently there was fortunately only a few cases where there was a prolonged manipulation of the boys foreskin and genitalshandling by a female doctor, never a nurse.

so we can consider that this raise some questions but not that of the gender of the examiners since you have yourself said before that it was normal that women could carry out these exams like men would have done them and that women could be chosen if necessary because of the luck of men willing to do that job.

you asked :"Couid this have taken place by a few female examiners rather than being systematical and purposelly set up? Which is another question".

my answer is not!

and the number of the women who chose that job because they enjoyed to see boys in the nude or to humiliate them was in my opinion very few, it was certainly not the major argument to attract them towards these jobs.

May be it is different in juveniole centers.

In my previous message, at the end, you must read that some boys could be older than 18 age, not that they could be too much old, it was a mistake.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
nis (Insensivity)
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Date Posted: Tuesday, March 19, 2013, 05:52: pm

Pepper on the others asshole is always a refreshment. People who feel it like a rae, feel it like a rape no matter what do you think about this mandatory and statal violation of dignity.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: I READ THAT BOOK...


Author:
Jack
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Date Posted: Tuesday, March 19, 2013, 07:29: pm

What difference would it have made if the doctors were male instead of female, and the same procedures carried out?
I would certainly not want a man to manipulate my genitals as described in such exams. A female, especially a young one, would have been more preferable.

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[> Subject: Name Piracy


Author:
Betsy RN
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Date Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2012, 01:18: am

I, the real "Betsy RN," did not post April 30. I would appreciate that correspondent to this board using another name to post. It may be confusing to long time readers who have read my posts for years to suddenly find an out of character posting. I really am an RN nurse practitioner. No my real name is not 'Betsy.' But I've been using this moniker to post, and I'm jealous of it.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Name Piracy


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2012, 06:05: pm

So if it was not you as a real RN nurse practicioner who had translated the relation of an exam of girls in Russia in a former post,I doubt that we had one day the answer to my questions.

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[> [> [> Subject: Modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Curious
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012, 05:01: pm

I am puzzled why my post of 13 May about this subject, with the same title, did not appear on this thread, even though it appears in the Search page for This Month'.
Anyway, in short, I was asking if there are similar text accounts to the German ones of draftees and medical and otherpeople present describing Russian draft physicals and how these people felt.
I am not talking about pictures of these Russian draft physicals, of which we have seen many, even though they are mostly from Ukraine and not Russia, which was a former Soviet state.
In these pictures young men, or boys, are shown completely naked in front of several female medical staff and also female clerical workers.
Would be interesting to know if there are any accounts in English of these draft physicals.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Reb
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012, 09:40: pm

Bottom line: Modesty during Draft Physical?

There wasn't any.

But, that was a different time and a different society. Males were more secure. Most of us were trying to figure a way to come back alive and go to school. I looked around and I couldn't see John Wayne anywhere in sight.
So many things going through our heads, being seen naked was really not a serious problem. Especially when it was you and 100 other naked guys. There is a certain amount of privacy in being in large groups.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Timothy
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 12:02: pm

Without doubt, boys are less embarrassed to be naked in large group than standing in front someone in "birthday suit" one.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Curious
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 01:24: pm

John Wayne?....hehe...The tough, gun-slinging, heroic guy would never join the Army during the Vietnam War, he was scared of real bullets.
But he did star in a Hollywood movie during that time as an American soldier in Vietnam, playing the tough hero. It was obviously a propaganda movie to gather suppport for the war, and
encourage men to join the Army.
I think it was called "The Green Berets", supposedly America's best soldiers. I remember seeing that movie at the height of the Vietnam War.
He was a good actor though. America's hero on the Big Screen.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Reb
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Date Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012, 06:43: pm

In the 60's, the Green Berets were America's best. Many think they still are. If you suppose they are a bunch of pussies, you might want to avoid mentioning it to them. Every group has special forces for operations. The Navy has SEALS, you probably don't want to screw around with them either.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Name Piracy


Author:
Rodger
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 09:39: am

I had my experience at a draft physical in 1966, and thankfully we all kept our undies on until the final part of the exam, we were told to form a circle with the male doc in the center, then all at once, we were told to BD d over & spread our cheeks. That way no one saw anyone else get the rectal exam.
I was very thankful that there were no females anywhere near the whe process. I was in my modest & insecure era at that time, I would have been devastated if a female hD been present even in the early stages of the exam.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Name Piracy ,Betsy


Author:
Judy.L.Y.
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:04: pm

Betsy RN You know when I read that something was out of character compared to your other posts.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Name Piracy


Author:
Reb
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Date Posted: Monday, May 21, 2012, 07:53: pm

Hummmmm seems I had a couple of incidents with name piracy too. I can relate.

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Med exam in China
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Date Posted: Sunday, May 20, 2012, 11:36: am

http://jp.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20081230&t=2&i=7688196&w=450&r=2008-12-30T203544Z_01_GM1E4B116VY01_RTRRPP_0_CHINA

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Tony
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Date Posted: Wednesday, May 23, 2012, 01:53: pm

Perhaps, modesty isn't big deal there.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
to Tony
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Date Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2012, 01:44: pm

Who care? Who asked lads?

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Commentary
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Date Posted: Friday, May 25, 2012, 01:54: pm

Each country has own rules for draft physicals and, indeed, lads aren't asked and have no choice.

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
The most embarrassment
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Date Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012, 07:19: am

If it was done during exam in front other lads and nurses,
it's the most embarrassment for young people.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls1esziTg61qids80.jpg

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012, 10:42: am

In my experien,ce, normally, such an intimate examination with a finger in the ass hole performed by a doctor who weared a glove was not done in front of nurses but it could be done in front of other guys at draft physicals.

And it is certainly the same in China because we never see women when china draftees are examined in such an intimate and thorough inspection of their asshole.

I presume that this picture was not taken during draft physicals but rather during an examination on a doctor in his office or in a medical clinic.

As concerns the first picture of chinese draftees squatting in group stark naked with their hands over their heads, it is something that I have already seen in China draft physicals, so I am not surprised, and as some others have said, the young draftees have no other choice than to obey to the instructions if they do not want to have more troubles.

It is difficult to know if they are very embarrassed or not because it is dependiong on their feeling about modesty which is not necessary the same as in western countries.

What I find funny is that the chinese doctor is showing them what to do by squatting himself with his hands over his head, I doubt that an american or a french doctor would have done the same, I presume rather that he would have given harshly instructions to the draftees to squat like that without doing it himself.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 08:10: am

I am answering to the last message of "Jack"
"Jack" has writen on march 2013 ahead on the discussion :"What difference would it have made if the doctors were male instead of female, and the same procedures carried out?
I would certainly not want a man to manipulate my genitals as described in such exams. A female, especially a young one, would have been more preferable".

you are right "Jack"
in my opinion, the question is not if it would have been better to be examined by a male doctor or a woman doctor.

in the way in which the examinations of german draftees were performed as described in the book, they would have been also embarrassing if performed by a male doctor assisted by a male nurse.

For me it would have been the same except if you are a straight man may be.

when you are submitted to a visual inspection of your anus,with possibly a finger in the asshole, and a palpation of your balls and a complete visual inspection of your genitals with retractation of the penis, it was always a bad time, very embarrassing. No matter who did it!


At least in Germany, the draftees were examined one by one without being stark naked in large group in front of a lot of persons and I doubt that there was so much perverted women doctors or nurses who pleased to humiliate the young draftees as the writer of the book seems to think that they were. The women doctors and nurses did their job like all doctors and nurses are told to do at military physicals without taking in account the respect of modesty of the young draftees or their embarrassment but who was thinking thinking to the modesty of the draftees at military physicals, nobody in facy, it was always like that, not worst, not best.

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[> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
Tiny
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Date Posted: Saturday, March 30, 2013, 06:13: am

Bashful Kidney- not able to pee in the presence of others. Don't laugh. Military induction was hell because of this. Imagine if you will, trying desperately to find a private place to pee. I outgrew this condition. Yours, Tiny

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[> [> Subject: Re: modesty and draft physicals


Author:
jean the frenchie
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Date Posted: Thursday, April 11, 2013, 02:45: pm

to follow the discussion, it would be interesting to read a few more some relations of physicals in eastern countries

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