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Date Posted: 13:31:59 06/22/02 Sat
Author: bl
Subject: The actors.
In reply to: lanie 's message, "What do you mean by RPF?" on 17:34:18 06/18/02 Tue

For a while stories were appearing on FF.net that portrayed the actors on Buffy, sometimes in RL situations, sometimes in the Buffyverse. One I found particularly offensive started with a couple of fans knocking out James Marsters and kidnapping him. Thank goodness FF.net put such fanfictions on the forbidden list. I could understand if the actors, who have given no one permission to put them in their fiction, might get upset about such things.

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Replies:

[> [> Re: The actors. -- Kate, 17:11:26 06/22/02 Sat

>I could understand if the actors, who have given
>no one permission to put them in their fiction, might
>get upset about such things.

Based on the one previous occurence that I know about -- "Visit To A Weird Planet," a story where William Shatner and cast were beamed on board the Enterprise -- it seemed that the actors minded the fiction about them *less* than the fiction about their characters.

Of course, "Visit To A Weird Planet" was decidedly general in nature, so while actors might be offended by some of the more...racier stories out there, I highly doubt it would be any more or less so than many authors are over people abusing their characters, as Marti Noxon has said about fanfiction.

Also, recently, Eddie Izzard, the British comedian, was handed a few pages of a story written about him on a talk show. He was read the story aloud, and, essentially, laughed and said that if they wanted to write that, they could write that.

So not every person feels the way you do. So it would be nice to tolerate it. It's out there, you may not like it, but other people do, and it's not your duty (unless you're running a site/list/etc.) to tell people what they can and can not read.


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[> [> [> Re: The actors and a ramble. -- lanie, 17:56:42 06/22/02 Sat

>and it's not your duty
>(unless you're running a site/list/etc.) to tell
>people what they can and can not read.

Well even if you are running a site/list/etc. it still isn't someones duty to tell anyone what they can or can not read.

Which, and really I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, I'm feather ruffle free girl on this one, but that's not so much the topic as far as the list goes. They(list mods) aren't saying you can or can't read it, they aren't even saying you can or can't rec it yet-which is what the issue is. I'm sure the list mods don't really care what we read.

At this point I don't even care if you wanna' rec graphic* RPF anymore. Just rec it clearly. I still think using the actors from the show is you know...not right, cause weird(operative word being 'I'). But otherwise...just rec it clearly. I'll avoid it. Just like a lot of you will avoid my W/S recs. Because, yeah, not a popular ship(though I think you're missing out).

It looks like the vote is going to the moderates anyways. I still think my thoughts on people pointing out their graphic RPF in an unofficial capacity is a so-so compromise, I wonder perhaps if this wouldn't be allowed as a way to perhaps somewhat satisfy some people?

In the end, we're all gonna' be offended by something at sometime, right?

lanie

*graphic being sexual


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[> [> [> [> Re: The actors and a ramble. -- Kate, 22:18:28 06/22/02 Sat

>>and it's not your duty
>>(unless you're running a site/list/etc.) to tell
>>people what they can and can not read.
>
>Well even if you are running a site/list/etc. it still
>isn't someones duty to tell anyone what they can or
>can not read.

Well, if you're running the site/list/etc., you kinda are, 'cause you're saying that they can post/rec/etc. only what you want to see. Like how on CordySlash, I only allow posts with Cordelia and slash. No ads for other sites, no other fic, etc. Just focused on the topic at hand. So I am controlling what people read on that list.

>At this point I don't even care if you wanna' rec
>graphic* RPF anymore. Just rec it clearly. I still
>think using the actors from the show is you know...not
>right, cause weird(operative word being 'I'). But
>otherwise...just rec it clearly. I'll avoid it. Just
>like a lot of you will avoid my W/S recs. Because,
>yeah, not a popular ship(though I think you're missing
>out).

And this is all that I've been asking for. I don't want to be told that I can't rec something just because other people think it's wrong. I want to be able to rec whatever I think is good.

And of course it'd be properly labelled. I'd be a damn fool not to have it properly labelled. It'd be just like if you were going to say "Oh, there's slash" and "Oh, there's graphic torture" and "Oh, there's hardcore sex".

It's just another thing to make sure people know. You're trying to sell the damn story as one of the best out there, so why not make sure everyone knows what to expect?

That's all I want. The ability to rec whatever *I* think is good. Much like how you will rec whatever you think is good. I don't want my recs limited by some rules expressing other people's morality. That's just wrong to me.


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[> [> [> [> [> My position -- Werrf, 17:38:44 06/23/02 Sun

First things first, apologies for the two msgs of mine on this subject that appeared on the list long after the mods told us to stop - I had actually sent them before that, but for some reason they got tangled up. So...sorry.

Now, my position...

I don't like RPF. The way I see it, if someone wrote a story about me, telling the story of how I went to a bar, picked up another man and slept with him, I'd feel offended, disgusted, violated, and lots of other bad things ending in -ed. So I just don't feel comfortable being part of a group that condones and helps the spread of such things.

Pro: It's only a recommendation.

My answer: It helps spread something I find repugnant. It may be 'only a recommendation', but it's still helping it spread. A recommendation for a site that shows pictures of children being raped is still helping such sites proliferate.

Pro: It's still good writing.

My answer: A photograph taken with a telephoto lens or pinhole camera of a celebrity without their knowledge or consent may be extremely technically competent, may look great, but that doesn't make it any the less an invasion of their privacy.

Pro: Freedom of speech.

My answer: Well, aside from all the points about how this doesn't infringe your freedom of speech...I'm sorry, I'm sure this is likely to offend people, but I have a real problem with people trumpeting their rights around. When your rights infringe on someone elses rights - like, say, your right to free speech meaning you making up stories that invade the privacy of real people - that's time to back off on your rights and take a look at your responsibilities.

I don't like RPF. I wouldn't like it if it was me, so I can't support it if it's someone else.

Toodle Pip,

Werrf


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My position -- Kate, 08:39:02 06/24/02 Mon


>I don't like RPF. The way I see it, if someone wrote
>a story about me, telling the story of how I went to a
>bar, picked up another man and slept with him, I'd
>feel offended, disgusted, violated, and lots of other
>bad things ending in -ed. So I just don't feel
>comfortable being part of a group that condones and
>helps the spread of such things.
>
>Pro: It's only a recommendation.
>
>My answer: It helps spread something I find repugnant.
> It may be 'only a recommendation', but it's still
>helping it spread. A recommendation for a site that
>shows pictures of children being raped is still
>helping such sites proliferate.

I really highly doubt that a recommendation holds such weight in the world.

I mean, I could recommend that everyone who seems to have such a bug up their ass about this go take some valium and settle the fuck down 'cause it ain't doing anyone harm, but it's just a recommendation. Is anything doing that? No. Obviously.

A recommendation is just that. One person likes it, suggests to another person that they check it out. It's up to the other person to decide FOR HIM/HERSELF if s/he wants to. It's not up to your mommy. It's not up to listowners. It's up to YOU. And if you can't handle that responsibility, then maybe you should go back to a place where you don't have to make those decisions.

>I don't like RPF. I wouldn't like it if it was me, so
>I can't support it if it's someone else.

And that's your opinion, which is entirely valid as your opinion.

My opinion is that RPF is just what it says -- FICTION. It can't be an invasion of privacy because IT'S NOT REAL.

If people were writing stories that they knew to be false and passing them off as true (as in, say, The National Enquirer or any particular good tabloid paper), then that would be an invasion of privacy. That would be libel.

But no one is saying these stories are true. No one is even remotely trying to pass off these stories as true.

Fiction. And if said fiction takes place in the Buffy universe, as the stories we were attempting to recommend were, then, well, it's the same as other BtVS fiction. Just another genre to be recommended on a list devoted to recommending all forms of Buffy fiction.

It doesn't matter what the content is -- it's people recommending stories that take place in the Buffy universe. So, yeah, if you're told "Well, you can recommend any story in the Buffy universe, except for those, 'cause those are WRONG," then, yes, it IS a freedom of speech issue.

You think they're wrong. I don't think they are. Who are you to tell me that I shouldn't recommend them?


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My position -- Amatia, 09:31:20 06/24/02 Mon

Regarding the libel/slander issue, RPF is actually less of a legal issue than actual tv or movie-based fanfiction. Speaking STRICTLY from the legal standpoint, RPF is not illegal because the fiction is normally adamntly disclaimed as _fiction_, whereas BtVS fic is infringing on a copyright.

As Kate said, no one is passing off fan_fiction_ to be true, and if anyone has, most of the RPF/RPS community hasn't heard about it.


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