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Date Posted: 10:26:33 08/12/04 Thu
Author: Robert
Author Host/IP: host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de / 131.188.93.25
Subject: Joe, in reply to your reply on the Moore issue down below....

You ignored a basic point of mine - his films are not exactly documentaries. That's why you are sorta like Don Quixote fighting windmills. I've mentioned the 'coalition of the willing' part. Why don't you criticize Moore for cutting Bush in after the monkey thing saying 'he's a man of vision', and Rumsfeld at the end of this part with 'mother of all coalitions'. Obviously that's a LIE! None of them ever made these statements towards the stuff shown in the movie! - Well, no sane person would ever understand it this way, it would be just ridiculous to address it as lie. Nevertheless you do the same thing elsewhere. What does it matter where Heston said the stuff? It's not in any way significant. It's just the proper place where to insert this footage. BTW the counterpiece of it is when he confronts Heston at the end of the movie. Moores movies are works of art - a painting may differ quite a bit from what you get when making a photograph, nevertheless it may be essentially more true.
'The 'brief history' - hey, why didn't you address that the guys didn't go to America BECAUSE they were 'scared'? Obviously they didn't. And obviously they didn't shoot the Indians right away when they landed etc etc.... Maybe you didn't because this would make your argument look pretty stupid. The comic is full of stuff that can't be taken literally. So what's the use of picking at the KKK/NRA thing??? It introduces the central part of BfC - topic 'scared', 'kept in fear'. And combined with the following scenes/soundtrack it's a powerful introduction. You always have to check the context before criticizing the stuff. BTW, Fahrenheit too has this as central part, actually it's sort of sequel.
People who literally believe Moores movies are as stupid as people who literally believe scriptures. And to literally criticize both isn't much better. It's just not appropriate.

You completely misunderstand what I mean by 'waking up' - the stuff people were presented by media was a selection that presented a fake reality, if you confront them with the stuff that wasn't presented this may cause them to wake up for true, complete reality, it may show them that it's not beneficial to rely one one source, or a set of like minded sources. It may teach them further on to question the stuff presented. - That is, it may result in a consciousness level more awake. Moore had to deal with a fake view installed by administration and media. That's a situation pretty different from when the stuff was installed in a propagandistic way. And if confronting it properly this shatters the fake view, and exposes the people who did it. So, though the means may look similar, the different conditions make it different.
Moores film doesn't present any whole truth - I don't recall him ever claim this. However he presents some essential parts of the truth, from the widely hidden, and not very favorable side of the Bush administration. And he does it in a way that many average Americans - neither left nor right - are interested in taking notice of it.
I don't know how many people were awaken by the movie. But from the reactions I've found several indeed are. And others who already had made up their mind felt greatly encouraged and in predominantly republican regions experienced that they aren't alone, that there are many like minded people.
Another basic intention of the film is to reclaim patriotism from the right wingers who have usurped it. They have transformed it into what Twain addresses as 'monarchical patriotism', as opposed to 'republican patriotism'. It's a pretty patriotic movie - maybe that's a major reason you don't like it.

BTW - the truth NEVER explains itself. You may present someone the easiest 'self explaining' stuff (in mathematics or wherever), it's always HE HIMSELF who has ACTIVELY to perform understanding. Truth (or whatever is taken for truth) only seems to be 'self explaining' for those who already are aware of it.
Even if your point may be as correct as it could be, it depends pretty much on how you present it to make people first take notice of it, and second to make them consider it as possible - preferably when it's pretty different from their present view. And again, in first instance they shouldn't adopt it - in first instance it should their awareness of the possibility that their views may be incomplete or wrong at any time.

Again, the film is a powerful wake up call. As long as people are asleep it's impossible to argue with them. Just doesn't work. Whenever someone is asleep for whatever stuff - at first it's necessary to make him wake up for it. First comes the alarm clock and then you may read the newspaper. It's useless to try to do it the other way round.

In my opinion you misunderstand Moore quite a bit. For me evidence seems to support my opinion. I'm not absolutely sure, but it's very likely. However that's my opinion and you're free to have yours. But whether I'm right or not, I have one HUGE advantage before you - I had and will continue to have lots of fun with Moore's movies and books. Actually I pity everyone who doesn't like it. :)

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[> Right.... -- Pops, 23:20:38 08/24/04 Tue (manc-cache-14.server.ntli.net/62.252.192.17)

Is it funny?


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