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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'll believe anything that I see on american TV as soon as bush comes out and publicly admits he's retarded. That's not goign to happen, and I'm not going to trust anything your government tells me. I know, I know, it's not at all like the CIA to do anything sneaky like put someone in makeup and an arabic costume to say he's the villain you're looking for, and admit that he did the things you want to blame him for.... noooo.... your governement would never fabricate evidence. They're honest. -- Lethal Larry, 22:27:27 01/22/04 Thu (px2wh.vc.shawcable.net/24.69.255.203)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Um........yeah. Okedoke. -- Pendraconian What The Fuck?, 14:58:29 01/24/04 Sat (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> By the way... "The WTC DEMANDED action".... that's WHY it was done, by whoever it was. -- Lethal Larry, 22:30:00 01/22/04 Thu (px2wh.vc.shawcable.net/24.69.255.203)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> The administration has the motive... -- Joe Taylor, 20:27:16 01/22/04 Thu (wc03.wlfdle.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com/66.185.84.70)

...but little else. That's not to say that there're no holes in the official story: there are 48906125.5 different official versions regarding what Bush did when he was told about the attacks, and the passport found in the ruins of one of the towers is just laughable.


Bush, further, is not a "good guy." He represents two contituencies: the far right, particularly the religious right - as seen in his homophobic, anti-choice, and fundamentalistic policies; and his corporate buddies, as seen in his support of Enron and Halliburton (I'm sure that the facts that Ken Lay is a close friend of Bush's and that Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton have nothing to do with that...). He cares about the American people to the same degree he cares about the Papuan people, with the sole difference being that he knows that the American people exist.

Take the Patriot Act. There's no proof that it helps combat terrorism. It's so damn easy to blow up a plane that the best the Patriot Act can do is force Al Qaida to blow up planes without any coordination from above. I have no idea about other people, but I just don't give a rat's ass about the name of Big Brother, whether it is the Department of Homeland Security or the Taliban, and I think it idiotic to destroy civil liberties and kill tens of thousands in order to derail soemthing that will in a very low probability destroy civil liberties and kill tens of thousands.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wag the Dog. -- Lethal Larry, 22:35:22 01/22/04 Thu (px2wh.vc.shawcable.net/24.69.255.203)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> QUICK JOE! NEGATIVITY! NOW!! HURRY!! No positive thoughts, they might cramp your style. -- Hero of Time, 04:50:55 01/23/04 Fri (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It would be nice of you to stop being so abusive. -- Joe Taylor, 08:44:45 01/23/04 Fri (wc03.wlfdle.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com/66.185.84.70)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wouldn't it? -- Hero of Time, 12:31:12 01/23/04 Fri (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)

It'd be nice if you said something we could all smile about every now and then too.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Guess that's impossible..... -- Robert, 13:58:55 01/23/04 Fri (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)

never encountered anything that would make ALL people laugh. I guess you wouldn't have enjoyed the stuff I've read today - maybe you even would have been mad on me for laughing about it.
But for me it was a very funny and relaxing time. :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> See, you're a positive, happy guy. You say things that make me smile, usually. Joe, however, does not. Everything is wrong, everything is conspiracry. Everything is a stupid cultural convention, etc to him. -- Hero of Time, 14:10:39 01/23/04 Fri (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Maybe, but I sorta can understand him..... -- Robert, 11:01:58 01/24/04 Sat (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)

after all it's him who lives in the US, not me. *L*

Though living there I'd probably join Moore's team. I'm sure he enjoyes the stuff he makes as much as I do, writing my posts. :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's all well and good, but the point is Joe is aggravating, and you're not. I can't stand Joe or his whinery, but I have untold amounts of love for you. Hold me. -- Heroic Affection, 13:08:27 01/24/04 Sat (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I guess you're better off with AJ, he's easier to access anyway..... -- Robert, 13:46:20 01/24/04 Sat (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)

poor guy, I pitty him. Deeply.

One more reason I'm better off living here. *L*

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> pitty=pity -- Auto-Correct Feature, 14:56:51 01/24/04 Sat (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> This was meant to increase the amount of pity, pitty sounds more pityful . *L* -- Robert, 03:36:07 01/27/04 Tue (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> pityful = pitiful -- Auto-Correct Feature, Redux, 18:45:38 01/27/04 Tue (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Just the same - 'y' indicates deep compassion. :) -- Robert, 12:12:39 01/28/04 Wed (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Moore is a sellout -- Joe Taylor, 21:23:47 01/24/04 Sat (wc03.wlfdle.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com/66.185.84.70)

First, the guy is too much of a demagog to my taste. And second, I consider his endorsement of Clark nothing short of selling out. Suddenly he cares about "electability" and "beating Bush," as if either matters. His positions are AFAIK identical to Kucinich's on everything, and yet he endorses someone else.

That's exactly selling out (expect an article on that on my website and on OSP shortly).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Article up on my site -- Joe Taylor, 08:57:42 01/25/04 Sun (wc03.wlfdle.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com/66.185.84.70)

http://leftist.i8.com/2003.html

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> 'When the facts change, I change my mind'..... -- Robert, 05:52:37 01/27/04 Tue (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)

about the stuff I'm cronfronted with - not about what I prefer though. I don't see sellout at Moore, and I don't see it at Clark - of course according to what I know.

Dean however IMO is. The 'committed believer' thing of Dean you mention is result of 2/3 of Americans prefering a religious president. So he poses as religious. An article mentioned that the book he named as his favorite one from new testament sadly is a old testament one. *L*

Personally I vote strategically. It depends on what I rate to be the best thing. My personal preference for whatever candidates and parties is only part of the reasons that make up my decision.

Twain mentions in his autobiography a Republican who told him that according to his understanding the parties have to be balanced. To do this he educated his son to prefer Democrats, and he says, 'if his son should ever turn towards Republicans then he would turn towards Democrats - though this would contradict his conviction'. :)

Such stuff is part of it. The BASIC question is what is the best thing for the community you live in, preferably based on long term considerations and considering interaction with the surrounding world. It's no sellout to base your actions on it. Actually it's the only reasonable way to do it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> About Clark... -- Joe Taylor, 10:20:59 01/27/04 Tue (wc03.wlfdle.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com/66.185.84.70)

...did he support the war or not? I still have no idea what his *real* position is.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with strategic vote. I do see a lot of wrong things with thinking that "anyone is better than Bush." If you really think that Lieberman is going to be a good president, then vote for him by all means. But don't vote for him because he's "not Bush," because it's idiotic. And this is what the 2003 Sellout is about - the delusion (I dare not say doublethink) that suddenly things will get better if Bush is booted. They won't. They didn't when Clinton was elected (okay, they to some degree were but that's independent of his being elected), and they don't now.

I don't know if Clark's a real 2003 Sellout - in fact, I'm not so sure that Dean is, anymore; when I developed the concept, I thought he was a secular moderate-liberal who actually believed in what he said. The quote at the beginning of my article says it all. The 2003 Sellout is the Anyone But Bush movement; Dean just personifies it.

Moore is one of the main culprits because he doesn't oppose Kucinich for "making a bad president" but for not being able to win. And that's abhorrent, considering that Clark may well win the election, but if nothing changes then there's very little point to winning. If I want Team A vs. Team B, I'll watch a Yankees vs. Red Sox game, or Liverpool vs. Manchester, or whatever. Moore never said something like "Kucinich will be a bad president because he supports canceling international agreements unilaterally, which I find a bad foreign policy." This is one of the reasons I oppose Kucinich; Moore, however, never gives it or any other similar substantiative reason, and rather talks solely about "beating Bush."

If you ask me, the parties don't need to be balanced - they need to be broken up into at least two factions each. With a multiparty system I might be able to vote for candidates who can win and who aren't 12 units to my upper-right on the Political Compass (scores range from -10 to 10 on two scales: economic, on which socialist is left and capitalist is right, and on which I score -5; and social, on which liberal is down and conservative is up, and on which I score -9; Bush's scores are +9 and +4 respectively, which means he's 19 units from me).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Clark is Moore's decision, and if I'd be american, he would be my decision too.... -- Robert, 12:55:46 01/28/04 Wed (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)

what the hell is wrong with chosing among the candidates? And doing it of course has to be based on some stuff. THe ability to beat Bush is one of them. Don't you recall what Moore wrote in one of his former messages? - most of the candidates aren't bad.
To defeat Bush is important. Foul more years will cause a lot of shit for many people who are affected by it, in Amarica and outside. Actually I don't mind much who will - hopefully - replace him. Whether it's Clark, Dean or Kerry.
My choice is Clark, but I'm ok with Dean or Kerry. And I'm sure, that's Moore's position too. To be pro Clark doen't mean to be against the others.

It's impossible to change basic stuff in a sudden. Evolution works bit by bit. It's already quite a bit to move stepwise towards the right direction. And you can't get all at once either.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> See, I don't bash you for supporting Clark -- Joe Taylor, 20:46:20 01/28/04 Wed (wc03.wlfdle.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com/66.185.84.70)

I bash Moore for supporting someone when there's another candidate who a) could use his endorsement and b) agrees with him on everything.

Didn't Moore lament how the Democrats acted like Republicans and how Clinton was all words and no action? There's no proof or evidence that Clark will be better.

Four more years will hardly be worse than four years of a Clintonesque Democrat with the spine of an earthworm.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nor do I bash you for bashing Moore.... :) -- Robert, 05:19:24 01/29/04 Thu (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)

IMO Clark is Moores honest choice. That's where I disagree with you.

Of course you can't have any proof that Clark would act different from Clinton - sadly proofs pertaining the future still aren't available. *L*
However IMO there would be difference. Enough difference to justify supporting him.

Be assured, four more years of Bush will be worse. It's possible though that there are some few positive effects - boosting european unity for example, or it may wake up some more Americans. But I don't think such stuff is worth the bill to pay for another period. I deny to take any responsibility for it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Whether he's a sellout or not - depends quite a bit on your understanding of 'sellout' - I like him. :)..... -- Robert, 03:49:08 01/27/04 Tue (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)

Same thing applys to 'demagog'. And additionally I enjoy it. And Clark still is the candidate I'd prefer too. Kucinich may be not bad, but I don't think he'd be a good president.

BTW - Moore ALWAYS was into beating Bush. Past election, though he endorsed Nader, he later for example in Florida told people that voting for Nader may be the wrong thing because it supports Bush.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Me too. -- Lethal Larry, 17:06:15 01/27/04 Tue (px2wh.vc.shawcable.net/24.69.255.203)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Um....Larry? After all that fighting we did before, and taking so much Goddamn effort to patch it up, don't you think that's being a little insultive? "You're a young fool" is hardly fair. But that's just me. This isn't my arguement. I won't feed these flames this time - burn yourself alive if you want. I just thought I'd provide a heads-up. -- Heroic Heads-Up, 04:53:43 01/23/04 Fri (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I ignored it as long as I could. And my comment wasn't stated as an insult, just as an observation - it was a foolish thing for him to say. -- Lethal Larry, 14:13:39 01/23/04 Fri (px2wh.vc.shawcable.net/24.69.255.203)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, maybe. However, I remember you saying back on the old RCC in regard to me calling Joe and idiot for something he posted "I support his right to say that." -- Hero of Time, 14:53:46 01/23/04 Fri (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Right.......... -- Hierophant, 17:42:06 01/23/04 Fri (adsl-65-66-154-237.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net/65.66.154.237)

Well. I may be foolish but your concept of 9/11 has definitly ranked as my "Most Ridiculous Item Of The Decade"
I should send it to Bill O'Reilly so he can share in the good laugh.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You called HIM a fool. You did not say that his statement was foolish. -- Pendragon, 19:48:17 01/23/04 Fri (66-189-224-182-rcp1.ubr1.wrbg.mo.charter.com/66.189.224.182)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Indeed a nice concept..... -- Robert, 06:42:50 01/27/04 Tue (host093025.phil.uni-erlangen.de/131.188.93.25)

it works with sugar and wasps - why shouldn't it work with Iraq and terorists. *LOL*

But al Quaida is contained there too, only part of it of course.

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