Re: Outside looking in -- Zuvanich

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Subject: Re: Outside looking in

Author:
michael

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Date Posted: 09:51:49 03/07/05 Mon
In reply to: Katy 's message, "Re: Outside looking in" on 10:13:30 03/05/05 Sat

Not to get to psychobabble on ya, but could it be that you perceive condescension because they're disagreeing with you rather than because they're actually being condescending?

A lot of folks disagree with me about most everything (its such a burden being the right one in a population of the wrong.) but only a minority of them are condescending, and I don't care because they're wrong so their condescension only makes them foolish in addition to being wrong.

When I argue with anyone its never my intention to be condescending. I focus on making sure that my argument is sound and I state it with confidence and authority. I may also, for the stubborn, restate or refine my argument to be more clear. My intention in any argument is to convince or at least win on the merits and never to diminish or belittle those I argue with or against.

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Re: Outside looking in

Author:
Mom
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Date Posted: 22:39:19 03/19/05 Sat

Just a note here - I got kind of carried away several posts back and came down hard on Michael. I apologize for that. I do think it's a futile exercise to try to convince someone else of my position on politics or religion. Haven't we been warned since childhood (mine, at least) not to discuss polticis or religion with family and friends? A cliche to be sure, but true because of that. So, I was wrong; I apologize to Mike and anyone else who was offended by my rant. Love to all.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in

Author:
michael
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Date Posted: 10:40:41 03/21/05 Mon

No apology necessary.

I was just taken aback that someone that strives to be right-brained would be offended at being characterized that way.

I've never had a problem talking politics, religion or anything else with anyone, although sometimes others have a problem discussing those things with me. I think the real problem lies in the perception that the person you're having the discussion with dis-respects you because they disagree with you. Since I disagree with everyone about something or another I've come to realize it isn't good to take such things personally, or to give such disagreements too much weight. Hell, even Isaac Asimov (a fairly clever fellow) was dead wrong about gun control, that doesn't mean I thought less of his knowledge of science or physics.

I guess my question would be, why get upset about stuff you have no ability to influence? I can argue about some subject endlessly and never change anyone's opinion and never have my opinion changed so why treat the argument as any more important than a game of Unreal Tournament? It is pretty cool when you can win an argument but the objective of an argument is to win more than to persuade. It is however, pretty cool when I can actually change someone's perspective on an issue or when someone else can add a point to the argument that I can't refute or haven't heard before (that makes me do research and once in a great while, alter my own perspective).

The bottom line is that I'm the only one that can change my own opinion so the argument is nothing more than a game and maybe a catalyst for research.

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Re: Outside looking in

Author:
Mom
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Date Posted: 22:01:57 03/23/05 Wed

I guess that is one difference between us - I don't like to argue just for the sake of arguing. I enjoy discussing some things when it is just a discussion, but I admit that I enjoy it more when I'm discussing it with someone who sort of agrees with me. I have never liked just arguing - such a waste of energy! But I'm glad I didn't offend. I do get passionate about things that matter to me, so I am not a good debater (sp.?).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Outside looking in

Author:
michael
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Date Posted: 00:57:38 03/24/05 Thu

I don't consider arguing a waste of time or energy as I get good things from it. First, argument drives me to research and analyse stuff I'm contending about. I've learned a lot more about history and government as a result of arguing online than I got from the public school system. The stuff I've researched for my arguments is accurate too, which is a substantial difference from what I "learned" in school. Second, arguing with clever folks can educate and enlighten when your wrong or ignorant of a subject. My understanding of quite a few issues has become more informed and deeper as a result of losing arguments with clever folks online. Third, I don't expect it to happen and it is quite rare but when you really hit the issue right and people acknowledge that you've changed their minds it can make your year.

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