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Date Posted: - Tuesday - 03/17/09 - 8:07pm
Author: Terry
Subject: M 40 cabin roof redo

Hi Getting ready to start the project, weather is getting good. I need to replace the entire cabin roof has anyone done this yet? If so what is involved to do it correctly and the fact the step for the main is on the foreward roof. If anyone has drawings, photos, instructions on how to do this it would be appreciated. I'm looking to get a heads up before tearing into it.
Thanks
Terry
Sea Voyager

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Replies:

[> roof redo -- Steve M-32 SEAN O'Sea, - Tuesday - 03/17/09 - 9:55pm

I don't know the differences between the 40 and the 32 so here are some things I believe should be common between the two. You are going to learn to hate removing ring nails. Go slow and careful so as to not tear up the underlying beams too much. After the ply is off fill the holes with epoxy mixed with colloidal silica. Whether to put nails back in or use screws is a personal decision. Ring nails will work just fine and are cheaper but if you ever have to remove them again they will be a pain. You will probably find some cotton string material in the seams. This is caulking cotton used to fill the seams between planks on wooden boats. You could obtain more and put some back where it came out of but epoxy with a filleting additive would be easier and probably more effective. The beams should have a slight hollow along their length in the middle. This a technique used to make sure the edges are tight even if the whole beam does not fit flush. Try not to remove it. One problem that can occur with this technique and did on my boat is that if water penetrates the ply it can get trapped in that hollow and cause rot where you can't see it until much damage has occured. This happened on my boat with the main beam (under the mainmast step) which had a groove used as a wiring chase for wires to the mainmast. Water got in there and rotted out about half the beam but it wasn't visible until the ply was removed. Also be careful as you're trying to separate the ply from the beams. There have been many years of varnish, paint etc over that joint and if you force it you can split some chunks off your beams (don't ask how I know :-( I hope this helps some and good luck!


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[> roof redo too -- Randall, Murre, M31, - Tuesday - 03/17/09 - 10:43pm

I too can only guess that there will be similarities between your 40 and my 31, and Steve's reference to the need to develop the patience of Job when it comes to ring nails I will second. On Murre the ring nails I encountered in the aft cabin bulkhead project were stainless, but the ring nails we encountered on the cabin side project (at the cabin side and coach roof joint) were brass (bronze?). If yours are of the softer metal, you might contemplate grinding the heads off and then removing the coach roof ply before attempting to remove the ring nail from the frame. This will give you more base to play with and make it easier to be gentle on the frame. Maybe.

I tend to think that the deconstruction stage is most important. If you go slowly and think through what you're taking apart, how to reconstruct and improve it becomes self evident.

I have not done this job, but have looked at it and thought about it for a while. I'm not happy with its structural strength on Murre. So, I might contemplate adding one or two more frame station in the main cabin or beefing up the glass regime or both. The challenge will be to make it stronger without adding too much weight. James on Malolo stripped both cabin sides and coach roof and wrapped all snuggly in xmat. Solid as iron (but lighter).

On the 31, the coach roof overlaps the cabin side. Be careful how you fasten this up if you intend later to redo the cabin sides.

The main mast support on my boat and several 31s I’ve seen is insufficient. May not be the case on the 40s. But if you’ve got the space open, you may consider building in additional support. Gitano and I are publishing our two approaches in an upcoming MOA article.

Steve, any pictures of the roof off?

Good luck man!

Take lots of photos…please!

RR


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[> [> Thanks -- Terry, - Tuesday - 03/17/09 - 11:54pm

Thanks for the info guys, Randall I agree with you when you say how important the de construction is. I've taken hundreds of pictures from all angles just to study and learn how it was put together. I've printed and read and re read your articles you wrote and plan to use them and all the information I've gotten here on MOA. I plan to take it slow and think it through so as not to cause a bigger problem. Yes I plan to take many photos from beginning to end and also write notes. I will be replacing cabin sides as well as the roof... My concern is to not damage the beams as well as strength where the mast will be stepped. I'm thinking it would be better to use screws instead of ring nails when putting it back together. If anyone has photo's of a job they did it would be appreciated.
Terry


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[> [> [> Roof redo -- Dan M32 #36 Independence, - Wednesday - 03/18/09 - 4:11pm

Terry,
I don't know if you're going to start before me but I'm intending to rip into mine Saturday or possibly earlier if work doesn't get in the way. I'll probably start with the coach roof. I'll post an update as soon as something happens. I'm excited to get going on this project but I'm sure my enthusiasm will cool as soon as I see what I got myself into. Here's to those who went before!
Dan


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[> [> [> [> Hey Dan how to get ring nails out? -- Terry, - Wednesday - 03/18/09 - 4:56pm

Hey Dan,
Looks like your going to get started before me, I still have to get the boat out of the water. I like to know everything there is about a project before I begin it. Please Please email me and send pics when you get into it.... These ring nails they talk about concern me as to how to best get them out... Sounds like a real pain in the A.s .. Not much info on here about M 40 projects but I assume the basic construction was the same for all models. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row as to avoid a bigger project then what I have already. Question ?? Is there anywhere's else other then the roof they used these pesky ring nails ?? I'm praying not the decks too. You can see what Sea Voyager is like as in a project here.. http://www.yachtseavoyager.com go to pictures and see my mess
Terry


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[> [> [> [> [> Ring nails -- Steve M-32 SEAN O'Sea, - Wednesday - 03/18/09 - 8:10pm

Yes, they are used in the deck also. Although people have a tendency to cuss at them, ring nails are really a very good construction method. They hold very well and are much faster than screws to drive. They are also less expensive. We as owners don't usually think in terms of the economics but if I'm trying to save money and can save on both labor and materials while maintaining the quality I'd be a fool not to use them. All this of course doesn't make them any less of a pain when it comes time to remove the @%$*&^%* things :-)


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[> [> [> [> [> [> ring nails -- Randall, - Wednesday - 03/18/09 - 9:06pm

The only other place I've encountered ring nails was at the base of the aft cabin bulkhead. See my "blog" on that project for pictures and remarks like Steve's: @%$*&^%.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Roof demo -- Dan M32 #36 Independence, - Thursday - 03/19/09 - 2:13am

Terry,
Well I had a little time yesterday so I attacked the roof. I only had about an hour but I got about half of it done. Here’s what I figured out-
After pulling up the glass which was very easy by pushing a flat bar (pry bar) under it and then pulling sections of it up, I tried driving the bar under the edges of the plywood and prying but it wasn’t coming. I took a skillsaw and set the depth at slightly less than the thickness of the plywood and cut as close as was comfortable on either side of the nails over the deck beam. They are stainless nails on my boat.

I also cut along the bottom. There are screws around the outside edges. Once cut it was easy to pull the sections of ply out, sometimes with a little persuasion from a hammer from the underside.

I tried prying off the remaining strips but was concerned about damaging the beams. I tried something else. Using a block of wood, I held it against the edge of the strip and smacked it with a hammer. The pieces between the nails came off easily leaving the protruding nails. The nails came out easily with a hammer or pry bar. I could actually reuse the nails if I go that route.
The deck beams do have a slight hollow in the top.
It was alot easier than I thought it would be.
I took some photos but can't figure out how to post them. Help anyone?
Dan


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