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Date Posted: Sat, December 25 2004, 20:17:09
Author: Peter van der Hoog
Subject: The TOPIC
In reply to: Peter van der Hoog 's message, "Re: Sorry, but I needed exact quote" on Sat, December 25 2004, 13:22:50

> So try to make the world better. And the best way is to start from yourself. So, what do you do to make this world better?

In my culture, it proofs of bad taste when you brag about the good things you do. Therefore, I am in a dilemma, tell you what a wonderful person I am or get a sneer from you. I choose for the sneer.
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>I do consider it a sexual harassment 'cause you see me as a sexual object/sex tourist.

No, I do not see you as a sexual object/sex tourist. I am just interested how a Muslim culture handles a free woman, like you.
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>So what makes you think the Dutch customs are valid here?
I have my values, and I do not consider does values as typical Dutch: Show respect for everybody, especially people who are not very successful in life. Always use your brain. There are never questions you are not allowed to ask.
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>Do the muslims of my board share this opinion? They've never heard of Theo van Gogh at all.
Then tell them about Theo van Gogh. Tell them how a fellow Muslim thought he had the right to kill Theo van Gogh, not because Theo killed another Muslim, or physically hurt another Muslim, no only, because Theo used WORDS and IMAGES this other Muslim did not like.
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>And did Iraq invite you to build democracy over there? Did Iraq ever imply it needed your help?
You should know by know that I am fanatically against the war in Iraq. I also believe the Jews should leave Israel and live happily here in Europe and the USA. Let the Arabs kill themselves. Now they unfortunately have a good reason to kill an outside enemy.

>>The western media, when you include all the books, all the magazines, all the different television stations, radio stations and the internet is very diverse. If you want, you can find any information you like.
>So why do you like caricature information?

I am very aware that the information I get is biased and not complete and that is why I find it interesting to exchange information with you and your Egyptian friends. Nevertheless, my curiosity will never refrain me from expressing my opinion.

_______________________
>Very very ironic, that they hate the dictatorship of Khomeini and are so fond of Cuban and Soviet dictatorship.

Sorry, I am not sure anymore what this sentence is about.
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>>What the queen says is unimportant

>Oh yes? Did I miss the revolution by chance? Besides the signature of the Queen is a symbol. I am given the nationality by the State of the Netherlands. Besides if I got it means I have been screened by the police and I have committed not a single crime and haven't broken any single rule in this country. You got it just because you were born here.

Pffff, sorry, but the queen has no relevance for me. Maybe she represents some symbolic value for some people but I could not care less.

>You accuse me in being badly integrated. And I am telling you that it's not the place to judge about my integration 'cause my board is not Holland. You still consider this place your place, but you are wrong, this place is my place.

Yes and your board is telling a lot about you. Banning and censoring people is not a nice thing to do. You rule like a dictator, telling people what is off topic, deleting messages and deciding which people are allowed to visit your board and who are not. One day you will be very lonely.

>>To have this dominant masculine dark haired lover from the Middle East, who is caring, reliable and faithful, who does not fool around with other women.
>I've got someone like that. And I know plenty of men you are describing.
Fine for you. Is he a faithful Muslim?

>This is a normal development. There is no civilization that lasts forever.
Sorry, what is the argument?

>>I once was refused because I was not dressed hip enough.
>I don't have shabby clothes in my closet.
Yes, we Dutch do not spend much money on clothes and other material goods. That is why we belong to the countries who give relatively the most to developing countries. We also are one of the few countries who always paid their contribution to the United Nations. Strange those foreigners call us crunchy.

>>For me it seems you are still looking for an excuse for the murdering of Theo van Gogh.
>And to me it seems you are trying to convince yourself that I am happy about this murder.
No, that is not true. I am sure that 90% of all the Muslims in Holland are very unhappy with the murder of Theo.

>>People with the Dutch nationality should consider the Netherlands as their country and make the best of this country.
>Says who? You remind me of my first mother-in-law who insisted that I called her "mom".

Do you want to stay the rest of your life a foreigner? I am sure, you will never leave for an Arab country.

>>Guests do not need to clean up but when they stay forever, they have to take their responsibilities.
>Once again, the government doesn't share your opinion. No criminal record, fluent Dutch and a legal paid job are enough.
Then my government is wrong. I think people who want to live here should clean up their mess and take their responsibilities.

>>That is not true, my government did not invite Moroccan, some companies did.
>And who let the companies do it? The government, didn't it?

So what do you want to say with such a remark? That we should accept all the problems that come along with a multi-cultural society?

>>Then our liberal laws made it possible for them to get their families over here.
>And who wrote the liberal laws? King Hassan?

So what do you want to say with such a remark? That we should accept all the problems that come along with a multi-cultural society? I find that a cold and harsh opinion.

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>But this is history. There is nothing to be done. Ancient Egypt, Babylon, Greece, the Roman Empire - all of them were powerful and prosperous, and all of them have fell. Fascist regimes rise and fall too. In addition, there is no regime that comes out of nowhere for no reason. Pim Fortuyn, an extreme right politician was chosen the greatest Dutch of all times. Greater than Rembrandt or Antoni van Leeuwenhoek. And it's not his deeds that made him so great, 'cause he was murdered before he had got a chance to do anything at all, it's just the history developing this way.

Yes, I completely agree, it is very shameful Pim Fortuyn was elected the greatest Dutch of all times. My only defense is that just 30.000 people (out of 16 million) voted for him.
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>So murdering Theo van Gogh is definitely a sin, as long as there is no shari'a court active in NL and cause he didn't attack Mohammed B. physically.
_______________________
Yes, I agree utterly and completely with you. Unfortunately, some people, who commence their believes on the Koran, have a complete different opinion.

>A caliph is a chief of the country who is 100% honest in the eyes of God and I don't believe the PM of the Netherlands can be a caliph. No-one in the world can.

This is a kind of arguing I do find sweet. Sometimes I wonder do I like Fla? I often think: no, she reminds me of those spoiled brads who are used to get what they want. But with the “caliph” argument, I start to like her again.

>Is any code of laws a verbal aggression? Like for example: if you drive drunk you can get into a car crash a verbal aggression? If you go to a war area you might get killed - is it a verbal aggression?
You got me there, Fla. How to deal with people who really believe in hell. I don’t know, a very difficult question.

>>However, I really start to wonder how such a strong woman, who wants to be so much in control, can be at ease in a Muslim world.
>Why not? Being a strong woman is not a sin.
You know how Jezebel ended, according to the Bible?

>>Question: What did the Muslim world achieve the last few hundreds years?
>The Muslim world has known it's Golden Age in the Middle Ages. This civilization collapsed as many others. It's a normal development of history.

Is it? When the Islam represents the truth, it is very hard to understand why this ultimate truth follows the normal development of history.

Please explain.

>>I noticed you consider the Western world as your enemy.
>This is a false accusation of the same kind as that I am looking for an excuse for the murder of Theo van Gogh.

Sorry, somehow I got this misconception. My humble excuses.

>You know why it's so easy to prove my point while discussing matters with you? Because of your 21-century- & West-centristic view of life. I understand you completely, as I shared your views when I just graduated from secondary school.

So you are ahead of me. Then I am sure it will be easy for you to convince me of your advanced point of view. Please, let us continue this exchange of thoughts. I have a very busy life but I promise you I will always respond. But it may take a while.

>Such people can for example call men who lived in the Middle Ages and married 12-year-old girls pedophiles or perverts.

You think a 12-year-old girl, enjoyed to have sex with an old man?

>When I was a child I believed that slaves where the goodies and the people who owned slaves were the baddies

Believe me, to be a slave was no fun at all.

>If you had studied history more carefully, the success of Western society would not amaze you so much. 'Cause what is this success compared to the success of Ancient Egypt in its time? What is this success in comparison with that of Arabs in the Middle Ages? You think Moshe ben Maimun or Abu Ali ibn Sina was less eminent scientists of their time or Leonardo da Vinci of his time than Bill Gates now?

You are such a relativist and I can smell your burning jealousy. Moshe ben Maimun and Abu Ali ibn Sina were wonderful men but does it mean we cannot give our opinion about the Muslim and Western values? Can't we decide which values were superior?

>Success of ANY civilization has directly to do with the economy. Let's take the example of Ancient Egypt. Why did they achieve that much? Because Amon Ra was better religion than any other African cult? I guess it was because the Nile contributed to this. When the area is so fruitful, people spend less time on farming and more time on science, culture and technology.

You really believe it is that simple? Organization between people is now the key to success. The Arabs, with all their oil, are relatively very unsuccessful.

The Muslim culture kept them from having really success.

>There is something that a genious scientist Albert Einstein said and I like it very much. Faith without knowledge is blind. Knowledge without faith is powerless.

Praise the Lord.

>That's why I already can foresee the end of this debate. You will run away like you ran away from the previous discussion.
I do not run away from any discussion. Just a lack of time gave you the impression I ran away.

>Because there are both knowledge and faith you are missing.
But I will never censor people and delete their messages.
>Not because you have no time. Cause many times I see you here staying for a long time and leaving and sometimes even typing a reply but changing your mind and finally not clicking "submit".
You got me their, Fla. But not “many times”. A few times. I planned to write an answer, then I was interrupted by something else, after that re-read my answer and missed the humor, I like to see and did not press "submit".

>This is the same problem with PVDH, he takes a fact, that is relevant in one place and in one time and projects it on the other place and other time. He takes the Moroccan youth of the years 2000 in NL which grew up in NL and was raised in a mixture of family upbringing and the Dutch environment to the whole world and the whole religion, besides he does it on the board that has nothing to do with NL besides the passport of the admin and himself and has not a single Moroccan member and most of unmarried male members are virgins by the way. Again his centristic mentality.

Those Moroccans have the same religion as you, and your fellow board members. So a do see a relation.

>Btw, PVDH, what concerns my responsibilities in this country I already replied u in the topic that you prefer to ignore 'cause of your usual lack of relevant arguments.

http://www.flamenca.net/board/index.php?ac...ct=ST&f=2&t=364

Sorry, no acces to your board anymore.

>Yasser Arafat is dead.
Conclusion:
Fla is jealous, 'cause he was a rich guy.

Yes, Fla is indeed the jealous type of girl. No doubt about it.

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