| Subject: Re: I have come my children |
Author:
Chubber
|
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Date Posted: 03:37:35 08/14/03 Thu
In reply to:
Severus
's message, "I have come my children" on 01:46:42 08/09/03 Sat
First of all I do not believe that you are God. You have made many errors in your post and God is infallible. Also: Matthew 24:27 reads; “ For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.” Therefore, since Christ is God, and the whole world hasn’t seen his return, I don’t believe Christ is somewhere on earth using a computer. Because of these things I will address you as an anonymous man. Howdy Anonymous! You state “You sit there and pray for so many things, yet all you are doing is begging me to fulfill your problems,” The Bible says, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.” (Philippians 4:6) Elsewhere: “Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray...” (James 5:13) Also; ”Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.” (1 Peter 5:7) Furthermore, if God doesn’t give signs, I’d like to hear you explain; Judges 6:36-40, Genesis 9:12 & 17:11, Isaiah 7:14 & 55:13, Ezekiel 20:12, Matthew 24:3-30, Luke 2:12, Romans 4:11, Psalms 78:43, Daniel 6:27, John 20:30. Just for starters. You say that God does not “have time to give signs to each and everyone” of us. As a matter of fact God has given signs to everyone of us, the miraculous sign of the cross, the universe itself, the hunger for the spirit inside every man, and the gift of His Holy word. Beyond that, if God created the universe, He must have created time itself. The scientific Law of the Space Time continuum demands it. Therefore God is not bound by time, He is outside of it and able to give each one of us as much attention as we could need and still be free to do everything else. Then you say; “You shall all be condemned to Hell, and rot with the serpent” This is not true either, let me explain how we know that we are saved. Systematically, there are three linear requirements that define a person as a Christian, one leading to the other. These three are belief, submission, and the indwelling. Though these things may be called by different names by other ministries or presented holistically, essentially they are solid in there acceptance throughout genuine Christendom.
First in speaking of belief we must clarify that we are not speaking of the application of the word used in John 3:16 which requires faith and action based on the belief, but rather the kind found in James 2:19 which is mere acceptance as truth. Though in the Greek, the same word is used in both passages it is with different intent. The belief that we are speaking of now is the one from James, the mere acceptance of the gospel as true. If one questions or refutes this it is impossible for them to go onto the other to points of salvation. Yet even simply accepting it as true does not guarantee a persons salvation as made evident in our passage from James.
Though a person may believe Christ is the son of God and the source of salvation, that does not necessarily mean they will be saved. Just as virtually everyone who smokes believes that it causes cancer, this does not mean that they will all quit and avoid the disease. Likewise not all who believe Christ is Lord will react in a way producing their salvation. Yet it is essential that anyone who will be saved first believes the gospel is true. That is why we list this as our first of three requirements of salvation. We can agree that no one can be saved lest they first believe that they need to be and that they can be through Jesus. Genuine belief usually leads to submission, our second requirement.
We define submission as the full and total surrender to Christ. We take this from numerous passages but for the sake of time we will only examine one to show our point. Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (All scripture quotes taken from; NIV, copyright 1984 international bible society, zondervan.) Some schools of thought insist that a person must be baptized in order to be saved, in one sense we agree with them, yet in another we disagree. It is clear in the text that this is the first thing God commands a new believer to do and is obviously his will. Thus if a person truly believes and is truly submitted to Christ he will be baptized. We see a person being baptized as an act of obedience indicating their full submission to God. This submission is key to a persons salvation. If a person refuses to be baptized yet claims to be saved we doubt this person very strongly. In this they are saying to us that they believe yet are unwilling to submit to his command. Thus this person would be like the demons in our passage from James and would not be saved. So we do not see the water as magical or the actual baptism as a sanctifying process, yet it is a good indicator as to whether or not a person has really submitted to Christ. Admittedly it is possible for one to be baptized and not to have really submitted to God or even believe in Christ. Obviously we would not believe this type of person to be saved, rather a fake. Basically we are saying that it is not enough for a person to believe, they must also do the will of the Father in heaven. To do His will is to submit to him as a private does to his general. We are not saying that a person must become perfect, or that they become unsaved when they rebel. We are saying that just as all of humanity was doomed through Adam in his one act of rebellion, any man may be saved in one act of obedience, this being the complete act of submission to Christ. In this act a person assigns ownership of themselves to Jesus, this also benefits the person in removing their sin and gaining them eternal life. Once ownership has been assigned to Christ it cannot be relinquished without his consent. We do not believe that a person purchased by Christ is up for further negotiation. Not because that person won't resist Christ, but because "if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself." This leads to our third and final requirement of salvation; the indwelling.
We believe in a perfect trinity, one God in three manifestations, of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We do not believe, as some, in three different Gods that just manage to get along or in one super God over two different lesser Gods. This is important in saying that Christ cannot disown himself. In this we refer to Ephesians 1:13-14; "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory." This passage sums up our doctrine. One must believe in Christ and submit to him in our day. In our time many have begun to think that it is possible to believe and not submit. This was not even a possibility at the time of Paul. At that time, whenever Christ was preached, he was preached as the Messiah. One of the key factors of the Messiah was that he was to be a ruling king. This being the case anyone who believed that Christ was Messiah had to submit to him. Because to believe he was king was to obey him. The two were not separable. Thus at that time Paul was able to assume that all who believed submitted to him and he was not erroneous in doing so. Then Paul states that having believed they were marked in him with the Holy Spirit and that he (the Holy Spirit) is the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. This is what we refer to as the indwelling. Some say that a person must be baptized in Christ and then baptized in the Holy Spirit. We believe that this is an attempt to divide the trinity. If this is true, why not go be baptized one more time into the Father just to be sure. We believe that only one baptism is required for one God. We also use this passage to refute the teaching that a person may be saved but lacking the Holy Spirit. We see here that the Holy Spirit is the "mark guaranteeing our inheritance." How than can a person inherit eternal life if they are not marked with the Spirit of God? Thus we say the final requirement of salvation is the indwelling, and this not by mans action but being the gift of God to a submitted person. In short a person must believe the gospel as true and submit to Christ based on their limited understanding, then following this transfer of ownership, God marks his new possession with the Holy Spirit. He indwells the person himself thus making it possible for a person to have a personal relationship with him and a more clear understanding of Gods will for their lives. This indwelling is the final mark "guaranteeing our inheritance."
So this is what makes me a Christian. I believe every word of the Bible as perfect and divine in its original form. Based on this belief I freely surrender or submit my life to Christ and assign him ownership over me. In response to this, my sins are forgiven and I am given the Holy Spirit to commune with the Father to whom I have been reconciled to through the blood of Christ. Therefore, I say that you are incorrect in saying that we will all rot in Hell.
You also say that we do not serve God right. Jesus said to go forth and make disciples. This is the heart of our ministry and we do it in biblical manners as Christ directs us. He said to preach his gospel unto the ends of the earth, which we do gladly. Christ also said “abide in me and you will bear much fruit.” Our ministries fruit speaks for itself, because most of that fruit is people. The lost are saved and the saved are taught and led to maturity. We assist all those in need, whether it be through prayer, physical work, or words of exhortation. We also assist the other ministries of God around us through physical participation and prayerful support.
Next you say, “Apostles, who has ordained you? Oh, no one?” Let us discuss the word; Apostle.
The word comes from the Greek word; Apostolos. (Strongs #652) The brief definition is: apostle, representative, messenger, envoy. In the extended research we find 5 primary contextual uses in the New Testament “(1.) Of anyone sent to represent another, a proxy, messenger, delegate, a commissioned agent bearing full authority.” All Christains fit this bill, examine 1 Peter 2:9: “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” Romans 8:37 declares that we are more than Conquerors. 2 Timothy states, “For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and self-discipline.” Matthew 10:27; “What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.” By this definition we are Apostolos. Let us examine the next one, (2). “Of the closed college of the twelve, Judas Iscariot not withstanding... Five Characteristics of the Apostles; (A) Foundational to church and special place in God’s Kingdom. (Mt 19:28, Eph 2:19-22, 1Co. 9:2, as church planters) (B) eyewitnesses of Christ (C) directly appointed and authorized by Christ (D) Authenticated by signs (E) Bore unique authority” It should be noted that neither Christ himself nor Paul would be an Apostle under this definition since Judas Iscariot was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26). Who would say that Paul was not an apostle? And Christ seemed to say that one who believed without seeing him with his physical eyeballs was due more credit than one who had to see to believe. (John 20:29) As for us; We fit requirement A in that we have all started churches and serve special purposes or duties in these ministries not normal to most believers. B; though we have seen the spirit of Christ in others and at work in our own lives and know him intimately, we have yet to see him with our literal eyeballs. Therefore we do not fit requirement B. C; We have been directly appointed and authorized by Christ to perform the duties we now execute. This by his revelation found in scripture, prayer, and fasting. D. Our ministry has been marked with many miracles and signs, this is not to our credit; but to God’s. E; We do bear unique authority because of the unique nature of our ministry. So, though we have many things in common with this definition, we do not fit the bill. We have not physically seen Christ and we are not members of the closed college of the twelve. Let us look at the next definition. (3). “Of coadjutors of the Apostles, apostolic delegates, “apostolical” persons (not persons who were apostles), those who by virtue of their close association with the apostolate were reckoned among them”. (1Th 2:6, Gal. 1:9) No, we were not close friends with any of the original 12, we are not 2000 years old. (4) “false Apostles” (2Co 11:13, Rev 2:2) the word here is used in conjunction with the Greek word meaning false, or one who preaches a false gospel. We do not preach a false gospel and therefore do not fit #4. (5) “Of Christ” (Heb 3:1) In this case Christ himself is called an Apostle. We are not Christ so we do not fit this one. It should also be noted that many other people besides the original 12, Christ and Paul we definitely labeled Apostles. E.g.; 1 Thessalonians 2:6, Silas and Timothy. It is important to note Timothy because he was not old enough to have ever seen Christ. Acts 9:1-6 and 14:4 Barnabas, Romans 16:7 Andonicus and Junias. Also see 1 Corinthians 15:5-7 and Philippians 2:25. --We are Apostles we have planted churches, raised disciples, seen God do miracles in our lives and ministries, have been called by God, bare unique duties and authorities, and are all licensed ministers ordained by Churches, pastors and deacons in the normal way. A minister after all is nothing but a messenger and the Greek word for messenger is “Apostolos”
You conclude by saying, “You false preacher, you are no better than the Anti-Christ himself. My time here is done.” What falsity do you find in me? You should know that you are not talking to one preacher but about eight. Only three of which bare the title Apostolos. Two of which have studied Christianity in college and have made serving God a career. To which of the 8 do you refer? It is also clear in Revelation that the Anti-Christ will claim to be God, just as you have. That is a claim none of us would ever make. Also, please do not be anonymous. IF you are strong in your opposition to us and have a reasonable case, tell us your name so that we can speak normally like normal men. We do not hide our identities, we are not ashamed, we stand boldly on the word of God. Come out of those shadows, don’t be afraid of the light, we mean you no harm. Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance to you.
---Bound by His blood
-John “Chubber” Martel
*All quotes taken from Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, New International Version, Zodhiates, AMG publishers, (c) 1996 AMG International, Inc.. (c) 1984 International Bible Society, Zondervan. If you read this entire thing we’re very amazed and glad.
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
| |
Feedback: 