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Subject: Re: Sharon etc.


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 23:29:19 02/27/02 Wed
In reply to: JeffF 's message, "Sharon etc." on 10:06:07 02/27/02 Wed

Bush and the US administration are doing something. They are supplying Israel with 2 billion $ of weapons free, every year. These are the Apache helicopters that shoot misles into Gaza and the A1 tanks that demolish Palestinian houses.

I wish we wouldn't do that. As far as I see it, it is not our war, so like Pilat from Pont, I wish whatever blood gets spilled to be on Sharon and Arafat's hands, where it belongs.

As far as my morals are concerned, we the American people, are responsible for the death of the 3 year old "youth" killed by an Apache helicopter missle. We provided the missle and paid for it. The Palestinian "youth" was guilty of being born in Gaza, and get born Arab.

As for Sharon's policy, it seems to me Bush is trying to emulate it at a much grander scale. In a nutshell, don't listen to any grivances, legit or not, just do a fast draw and shoot from the hip. So far, as far as I can see, the only one killed has been the piano player in Afganistan.

Just like his dady lost the war with Saddam, baby lost the war with Osama, who is likely to be alive and doing just fine thank you.

To call that a "victory" and for somebody to accept this as a "victory" is beyond my comprehension. The bearded idiots in the Taliban never flew any planes, and the camels they were riding never hit the twin towers in NY.

The Saudis, who made up and funded these types of organizations are still there, full of money and continuing to fund the same organizations, while we bomb some illiterate peasants in Afganistan who couldn't point NY on a map if their lives depended on it.

As for Sharon, as I said, he belongs in the same cell with Milosevich. How many Americans know that Sharon will never set foot in Bruxel because he is WANTED for MURDER?

There are no "good" guys in the middle east Jeff. Only horrible guys, and people who place their beliefs and ethnicity before their morality and before their humanity.

Why are we meddling into that place?

As for the Turks, last I checked, the US government didn't give a damn about either the Kurds nor the Armenians, or the Tutsis for that matter.

And I doubt they give a damn about Jews either except for the political and financial power of the American Jewish community.

But is that influece so strong as to make us all murderers of women and children? I personally don't like it. I don't like being the ally of Ariel Sharon.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Take a look at this


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 10:51:53 03/07/02 Thu

Here's a balanced article about why we can't wash our hands of the situation, Mark. There is little chance of peace without a US push for it. Who else is there? Israel doesn't trust the Saudi push for peace which is unbalanced and neither side totally trusts Mubarak, the only other person who is offering anything.
This article isn't pro-Sharon, it's fairly balanced.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51904-2002Mar6.html
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I did


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 00:00:11 03/08/02 Fri

Here is the problem with the US involvement.

1 - We have never been, nor can we be an honest broker in the middle east. Why? Because we supply the guns that kill the 12 year old Palestinians, so I can't imagine giving ammunition to the guy who kills your child and be able to make peace in the same time.

We are a declared ally of Israel, and a declared enemy of almost everything Muslim or Arab.

Read the news. Watch the TV. Arab Muslims are always portraid as terrorists, bad guys. When was the last time you saw a movie where the Jew was the bad guy?

When did they ever show the Mossad exercising their God given right to "preventive assassination" or to torture?

I wish somebody would make a movie about this subject, but I doubt it could be viewed in the US.

I gave up on reading any US news about the Middle East and Israel. I relly on European media, because what Fox News and CNN is showing us is intelectual garbage.

2 - Each time we attempted to mediate and in the Midle East we blundered. I believe the State Department and the CIA has nobody from the region to articulate the US policy and relly exclusivelly on Jewish and Israeli sources.

I cannot believe the President of the US (a born too many times Christian) is telling of a "cruciade" unless he is an idiot, advised by idiots, or is indeed articulating the American policy against the Muslim world.

3 - You were the biggest critic of Clinton for his involvement in the area. We actually agree on this. Clinton did make a fool of his legacy by trying to mediate this conflict.

4 - This is a fight for survival. It transcends politics. The battle for Palestine or Israel, is primordial. They say Hyenas and Lions will always fight for territory, and never share it.

The Jews from Russia cannot go back to Russia. They need the land confiscated, so the demolition of Palestinian homes will continue, specially in Gaza (the Mediteranean Coast is more attractive than the desert). The Palestinians have nowhere to go. They need to kill each other until one nation cleanses the other.

Israel is wining for the moment, but aside from the Palestinians there are over 200 million Arabs, who's nationalism is only beginning to grow.

Actually American involvement in the Middle East in the last 30 years has less to do with Oil, than to deal with this growing nationalism.

Our invovement has always been dictated by Israel's policy and against our own interests. We have been stopping the nationalist tendencies and made it imposible for leaders of a Pan Arab world to emerge.

I don't care about either Jews, or Palestinians. But I do care about Americans, and our involvement in the area, our idiotic policies and inept leadership in this area will cost the American people dearly. Even if it serves Israel.

As for our "leadership" as a "superpower", we never exercised that leadership except when our government found it expedient for other purposes.

We still have not officially pressed the Turkish government to accept responsibility for the Armenian HOlocaust, and have done nothing for Armenians.

We have done nothing for the Tutsis when they were massacred, and Clinton has been criticized by you and everybody else for his saving of the Albanians and Bosnians in Yougoslavia.

The only way the US can have a "leadership" role in preventing such tragic outcomes of policy is by formulating a foreign policy in agreement with human rights.

But that would mean giving up the Trade with China, and both Democrats and Republicans need the trade with China, and the money from the Jewish lobbies to get elected.

By the way, tell Ethan to take some pills to cool down, he's becoming more radical conservative and more bloodthirsty against anything not redneck than ever. Must be that old age getting to him.

He sounds like a poster boy of American Conservatism - a cranky old man with no new ideas and a lot of hatred for everybody else.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Happy mediums


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 10:21:47 03/11/02 Mon

It's true that I criticized Clinton's trying to force a solution that nobody was satisfied with as a way of getting a legacy. Critical as I can be of the man, he did have some caccomplishments that could have stood on their own as his legacy(the Family and Medical Leave act for example and Milosevich's arrest).
But if he went too far, Bush does nothing. You say you read the European press. If so, you know that most of the European countries are begging us to stop this hands off approach and at least get the parties back to the table.
You say we can't be an honest broker. If that's true, the question is who can take our place? If Europe is more even handed, then perhaps they should take over and try an initiative of their own. Surely, you don't think Israel is going to trust the Saudi plan?
One thing I agree with you about is that even if Israel is winning for the moment(which is debatable - just because more people on the other side are dying doesn't mean you're winning) they cannot win in the long run if the situation stays as it is. They are at a huge number disadvantage. Even though the PA forced most of the current situation, Sharon's policies in general are not in Israel's long term interest. The Israeli people certainly do not have more peace than they had before Sharon was elected.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: My feelings exactly


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 22:15:22 03/11/02 Mon

http://www.fair.org/media-beat/020307.html

Six Months Later, the Basic Tool is Language
By Norman Solomon


Cameras have recorded countless defining moments. And six months after Sept. 11, some nightmarish televised glimpses of that day's horrors still resonate deeply. Visual images are powerful. Yet there's no substitute for words that sum up what might otherwise seem too ambiguous, upsetting or baffling. Words attach meaning to events.

Since last fall, the biggest media buzz-phrase has been "the war on terrorism." By now, journalists are in the habit of shortening it to "the war on terror" -- perhaps the most demagogic term in recent memory.

Present-day reporting is locked into a zone that excludes unauthorized ironies. It simply accepts that the U.S. government can keep making war on "terror" by using high-tech weapons that inevitably terrorize large numbers of people. According to routine news accounts, just about any measures deemed appropriate by top officials in Washington fit snugly under the rubric of an ongoing war that may never end.

Irony, while hardly dead, is mainly confined to solitary reflection. If insights run counter to the prevailing dogma, then access to mainstream media is fleeting or nonexistent. The need for independent thought has never been greater.

At this point, facile phrases about war on "terrorism" or "terror" are written in invisible ink on a blank check for militarism. They can be roughly translated as "pay to the order of the president" -- to be cashed with a lot of human blood.

The grand media outlets are so entangled in the current newspeak that they rarely seem capable of presenting any fundamental challenge to the White House. At the same time, a smattering of news outlets -- far from the centers of journalistic power -- refuse to dodge the task of raising key questions.

A daily paper in Florida made a profound statement on March 2. "The nation's loyalty is turning into groupthink," the Daytona Beach News-Journal editorialized. "How else explain a president who, playing on the war's most visceral slogan, gets away with justifying an obscene corporate tax cut as 'economic security,' a build-up of defense industry stock as 'homeland security,' and an exploitative assault on the nation's most pristine lands as 'energy security'? How else explain his contempt for Congress, his Nixonian fixation on secrecy, his administration's junta-like demeanor in Washington since September?"

The notably forthright editorial pointed out that "without robust dissent, democracy might as well pack up and head for the hills." And it accurately described the status quo of March 2002 in the USA: "This is not unity. It's not patriotism. It's stupor."

At once foggy and focused, the media lexicon of self-justification rolls on. By implicit definition, Washington's actions against "terrorism" can only be righteous -- and a penumbra of virtue extends to Uncle Sam's allies. That helps to explain why, in the daily drumbeat of reporting from the Middle East, the Israelis who shoot are engaged in "security" operations while the Palestinians who shoot are "gunmen."

Almost without exception, in U.S. news reports about the back-and-forth violence, exculpatory words like "retaliation" are reserved for deadly Israeli actions, not deadly Palestinian actions. It's a typical element of style for American journalism: Israelis "retaliate." Palestinians don't.

The media spin is exceedingly kind to the occupiers. When Israeli onslaughts take civilian lives, that's not "terrorism." When Israel sends tanks and aircraft to attack Palestinian neighborhoods or refugee camps in the West Bank or Gaza, that's merely an "incursion."

Meanwhile, American taxpayers are financing massive new Pentagon ventures, with troops and weaponry deploying overseas from Afghanistan to Georgia to the Philippines. To boast about waging war against "terror" by terrorizing is a no-brainer only in the sense that our brains must be on automatic pilot in order to nod approval.

A little more than a year ago, at the first World Social Forum in Porto Alegre, Brazil, the Latin American writer Eduardo Galeano commented that our societies suffer from "fear of solitude ... fear of dying, fear of living." The dominant trends encourage passivity. "Quietism is based on fear." And: "The system presents itself as eternal. The power system tells us that tomorrow is another word for today."

Currently, that's more true than ever. Promised a perpetual "war against terror," we face a parallel media war without end. It's a propaganda siege that must be resisted -- because truly open debate is essential to democracy. As Galeano observed: "There is no greater truth than search for truth."

That search, positively endless and necessarily difficult, stumbles over manipulative language. Words are pivotal for keeping us in this mess. And words may be crucial for getting us out.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Don't know


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 21:48:35 03/11/02 Mon

I'm not sure the Saudi plan is so great either. I believe any plan that doesn't include some reparation for the Palestinian refugees in 3rd countries (Lebanon is first to my mind) is likely to fail.

I don't see how the displaced Palestinians in Lebanon would accept such a peace, just so Arafat can keep a nice home by the Mediterana.

Any peace plan where there is some reparation and consideration to victims of the Arab Israeli wars would be unacceptable to Israel.

MOstly, we live in an American world, where Israel backed by the US is winning militarily, so they have all the incentive to keep pushing for more land.

Israel's security, sad to say, would be strenthened if they could achieve a larger Israel, with a new cleansing of Arab populations within it's mist. A 10 or even 15 million Israeli nation is perfectly posible, economically and militarily more secure than a 4 or 5 million Israeli nation.

And no US administration would object to a few more massacres of the Sabra or Chatilla type. We didn't do much about the first, why bother the second time it would happen?

After all, in the average American mind, all Arabs are terrorists, so a good Arab is a dead Arab, just as a good Indian used to be a dead and lanless one.

And without American concern, no other nation today can, or will do anything. But times change. Few years may change the power positions and the policies of today are likely to be remembered for many generations in the Arab world.

My prediction is that in the next year or 2 we shall have another big Israeli-Arab war, possibly with Siria and Lebanon, where Israel will get another chance to a landgrab.

America will not raise an eyebrow to anything Israel will do.

Let's see if it haepens or not.



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