No, and wrapping up -- Back Talk

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Subject: No, and wrapping up

Author:
JeffF

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Date Posted: 08:56:55 10/16/01 Tue
In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Let me see if I got it" on 22:19:11 10/15/01 Mon

I knew that the odds that you got it weren't high. Let me make some last points, and then I'll bow out of this thread, so we don't keep going in a circle and also because I'm debating this a bit on DP, where Vivian makes your case better than you do, since she can at least stay with a point. I'm actually trying to pin down George7 to post some specific ideas for a solution now.

Let me reiterate, so I can try and bring you back to reality.

Except for the war in Lebanon and the 1956 war with Egypt, Israel has never started a war. The 1967 war led to the capture of the so-called occupied territories from Jordan. There was never a Palestinian state, so if there is one now, that will be a first.

2. Israel has always traded land for peace. This was proven in the Sinai treaty and again last year when Barak offered the PA most of what it wanted at Camp David and it was rejected. Stop deliberately missing the point, Mark. The Palestinian Authority rejected the offer of an independent state that would give them most of what they wanted.
It works the same with the Golan. As soon as Israel gets security guarantees and Syria recognizes her right to exist, there will be a peace treaty. It is however convenient how we overlook Syrian terrorism because Syria doesn't like Iraq.

3. Any peace treaty will have to settle the issue of Jerusalem and this can't be done unless free access to all religions holy sites are guaranteed. When Jordan owned Jerusalem, Jews couldn't get into their holy sites. We will never allow that situation to exist again.

4. Keeping the territories is not in Israels best interest anyway. It's an economic drain to have to keep administering poor areas like this. Moral considerations aside, it's not in Israel's long term interests to have to keep an occupying army and police force either.

5. Isreal is a functioning democracy. There are many Arabs in the governemnt. There cannot be Palestinians from the occupied territories in the government because they are not citizens and citizenship is not an answer. The territories will have to be independant. The minute the PA shows they are serious about peace, negotiations will lead to independance. Every country in the world including the US favors a Palestinian state. Did you catch Blair's statement yesterday? I think he has a chance to play a major role here. He's got a nice quiet effectiveness.

6. It is the moral obligation of the world not to abandon the Jews again. This may at times mean arming them so they are not left at the mercy of terrorists.

7. Israel has shown incredible restraint in the last year given the constant terror and provocations. A good part of this is American pressure. If you take America out of the Middle East, the odds are more Palestinians get killed.

8. A tribunal to charge people in the Middle East with war crimes is OK, so long as people from all sides who committed any are put on trial as in the Balkans. We have to be a little wary of International law as a concept thought, when it is often just a group of countries ganging up on a country as we see too often in the UN. International law is something most countries believe in only when it's convenient(and I don't believe the present German government owes the Jews reparations for World War II, so don't go there).

9. A true patriot gets involved in telling his government what he thinks the obligations that government has. I'm patriotic because I tell the governemnt why it's in their best interests to support Israel. I don't quarrel with the idea that you're patriotic because you tell them the opposite. If that's how you feel, it's your obligation to tell them. It's not your patriotism that's in question. It's your sense of reality.
You know GWB tried to ignore reality before the 11th. He tried to pretend the world didn't exist and he could concentrate only on his domestic agenda. It's a funny thing about reality, Mark, you can ignore it for only so long and than it will suddenly bite you in the fanny and even you won't be able to ignore it. Sorry, Israel's not going to sit back and let her citizens be massacred, just so you and others with your views can say "Sorry, I didn't realize it would be like this."

With that, I'll bow out of this thread. You can take the last word if you like.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Back on Terror and Terrorists

Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 00:54:19 10/17/01 Wed

Israel should not stay back, but I don't see any reason why America shouldn't.

More so, I am appaled that we the US have only supported Israel in war, and not in peace. We could and should guarantee firmly their borders if a viable Palestinian state is created and if Palestinian refugees in third countries receive compensation, just as international law demands.

The billions of dollars we gave Israel, and Egipt would have been better spent to compensate Palestian refugees from the conflict should they agree to pacify.

And I am convinced that without the unconditional military support of the US for Israel, we would have had peace in the middle east long time ago.

I also am convinced that there is absolutely no benefit to the US to be supporting Israel, to the contrary, our unconditional support is creating lots of problems.

For one thing it antagonizes the entire Arab and Muslim world. It makes them our enemies, because just like the Jews, the Palestinians are not going to stay with their arms crossed while their land is robbed and their children killed.

And just as we went to war against the Taliban for supporting Bin Laden, so do Palestinians go to war against America because we arm and aid financially the murderers of their children. As I said, they have a right to self defense as well as Israel, and they are defending the land they were born in and their way of life.

The only reason why the US is aiding Israel is because of the proeminence of the Jewish community in the US

Frankly, American Jews have so much financial, political and cultural power in this country, that no government can say NO to their demands.

And just like you, a majority of American Jews, have decided to be Jews first, Americans second, and to leave their morality somewhere outside of their conscience when it comes to Israel.

The 10 commandments so much bragged in this country don't seem to apply to the middle east.

Aside from not seeing the stealing of land, the murder of civilians, the assassinations of the MOssad, the torture, and the keeping of an entire nation in bondage, it is shameful how our media is manipulated.

If one wants to read any real news about the Israeli Palestinian conflict, one needs to go to European press, because the American press is shamefully controlled and censored of any news that may cast doubt on the "rightness" of the Israeli cause.

CAse in point - when 2 Jewish teens from settlements are killed, I have seen countless programs about their lives, their ambitions, their expectations.

Over 1000 Palestinian children have been killed last year in the occupied territories (amnesty international data), yet all of them are nameless and faceless, including the 12 year old killed with the but of the rifle by a Jewish settler.

I guarantee you that if a Jewish 12 year old was killed with the but of the rifle, his face would be in the first page of all major American newspapers for weeks.

What's most revealing about the lack of morality of the Jewish state is the fact that the assassin, the terrorist who killed that child walked free, acquited by a Jewish court (guided by the same 10 commandments Bush so much loves).

And it makes us Americans the same, unless we review our relationship with this conflict. It makes us, aids to the assassins of Mossad, and the tortionists, the landsthieves and the killers of 12 year olds.

I don't want to part of this, and I would hope no decent human being would give arms to 31 year olds who kill 12 year olds with the butts of their rifles to walk free.