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Subject: Re: Religious State and the Law


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 11:30:20 08/09/01 Thu
In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Re: Religious State and the Law" on 08:46:18 08/09/01 Thu

Well, the thread about the Turkey is also about the bizzare extreme nature of punishment where women are being killed for the "crime" of being raped or for the "crime" of talking to boys. While I agree with you that it's absurd for a woman to be arrested here if she's on the beach nude,but I do think it's a stretch to equate that with fathers murdering their daughters for being unchaste as happens in Turkey and other countries. Near as I know, American fathers are not generally murdering their daughters for being nude on the beach or for talking to boys. When it comes to Turkey, we have always turned a blind eye to anything they do, from the invasion of Cyprus to the refusal to acknowledge the Armenian massacre to these "honor" killings.

I understand your point about the legal sex age, but where do we draw the line? Surely, you don't want 10 year olds having sex with adults? What would be a reasonable age? A 17 year old boy is often an adult in every way, but is a 13 year old? It seems there should be a line somewhere, not so much because of moral issues as because of emotional ones. Kids are often not ready emotionally for sex. A 17 year old is not really a kid, but younger teens often are.

"What do we gain by posting the 10 commandments in the Courthouse?"

In my opinion, nothing. Those who follow the ten commandments would follow them without their being posted and those who don't aren't going to change their mind because they happen to be posted. Going one step further, should atheists who have to testify in court have to swear the oath "So help me, God" before they testify?

As for WWII, Americans didn't trust German citizens, Mark. They just didn't know how to identify them. It was a lot easier to round up people who looked different than the majority. The Germans looked like any other white guy and it would have been a lot harder to identify them. Remember, there was already a lot of prejudice against people from Japan and China here before the war - a lot of jobs that people who looked like they were from the Orient weren't allowed to apply for.

"Do we view ourselves as Jews first, Americans second?"

Better would be to view ourselves as a collection of unique individuals first before viewing ourselves as either Americans or Jews or Christians.

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Replies:
[> [> [> Subject: Shades of Grey


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 00:52:01 08/11/01 Sat

I agree with you, and the thread in question, that killing a woman for not veiling herself when in public is way above a $200 fine for exposing nude on a Florida beach.

I also agree that most Islamic countries are very tough in enforcing morality on women. Most people adhering to those customs will tell you they are just doing their duty in enforcing morality as they know it.

However, if I remember correclty, morality does come from the one and only same God in the Bible, and since it is not a subjective idea that can be changed rightly or wrongly by peoples around the world, one may say they are just receiving God's message. By the way, Turkey is much more secular than some Arab countries (G. Bush's senior friends and allies, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia come to my mind).

Every morality around the world includes gender provisions. These gender provisions are definitions and prescriptions of how men and women should act as men or women, and every culture has means of moral enforcement of these rules.

As I said before, it is easy to see the abnormal gender moral definitions of different cultures, than to see our own gender biass.

We have expectations from both men and women. One thing I noticed when first in the US was that many American women do not wear panties. That seemed kinky in the beginning.

Many European women do not wear bras under their shirts, and that would be scandalous in the US.

Killing women is an extreme form of enforcing gender morality. Thousands of women die every year because of it.

Let me give you an equally deadly example of gender biass in our culture:

The military draft. Although not practiced anymore, it is technically still legal.

Millions of men in the Western civilized Europe and the US have died, and many still die, because they are expected to play their gender role in war, regardless of weather they agree or not with the war itself, or with their own capability to carry it on.

Many other men are scarred for life because of physical and emotional trauma associated with forceful military service.

I would bet that 10 times more men had died this century because they were expected as men to serve in the military, than women had died because they were expected to be chaste and act the part their societies have assigned them as women.

Most people would find my post and associations absurd. Of course they died, silly, they were men, they were supposed to be drafted, and die heroes for their countries.

Step back from your culture, and pretend to be an alien from Mars, where there are no genders and people reproduce from stemcells.

You will find that the military draft is a more extreme version of enforcing gender definition, then any other on Earth if you judge by the number of involuntary lives lost.

I don't mean to take away from the thread, just to add a spin to it, that I am sure not many people thought about.



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