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Date Posted: 13:27:09 05/16/03 Fri
Author: AnInstant..hi to ARN and Chani in tragedy
Author Host/IP: 207.183.246.1
Subject: Time Wonk explained, from the shallow end of the Pool


My total post is from a shallow end of a pool. It relies on "The Ethic of Time, Structures of Experience in Shakespeare" by Wylie Sypher, including out takes of Northrup Frye and Jacqueline de Romilly. Of course I used Web sites too, but NOTHING is as Good as the Book cited, or *Any* Jacqueline de Romilly work (Books or essays). Joss, speaking thru Giles, is correct: Knowledge is in books.


I have read all the great posts concerning Time Inconsistencies in SD; likely Dawn connected. However, Yoshi's great theory, based a little on the Opera "The Wall", could be correct, and the reading of the joining spell seen in 4.22 and 4.21 out of order is causing the time wonk; following the JW theme of the FIRST LAST in foreshadowing.

My concern with SD Time wonk spurred my post. I consider the following events and interpretations (think shallow) as important.
* Rosalind's, Hansel's, Chani's, ARN's and Horty's super posts and email, mostly on Minoan Culture. If you missed them, ask them when they are posting.

* Episode 7.19 is a work of art in using Time concepts to contrast thinking of Matriarchal Minoans/Pre Greeks and Greeks, with/against Patriarchal Greeks and SD citizens. This Episode deserves AWARDS, and has mine.


*JW is personifying Aion time concepts in Buffy's Greek Tragedy, with the "Buffy and Scythe"

* The personifying theme of Linear time concepts is showing up in Uniforms (among other things) with the police, and especially with Caleb.

*The "Gift alley Vampire" that I suggest represents concepts of Aion time (Matriarchal and Demonic), where the past will recur in the future, is seen in First Date out side the French Resturant as Buffy and Wood approach. May sound like a flash back, but it really was reality in SD's First Date time line.

What is my speculation?

The story of Peter Pan's has the Ticking crocodile as the classic personification of Linear time. Some acadamia see the crocodile biting off the hand of Hook as Castration. That should sound familiar if you see the future use of the scythe. I also link the crocodile to "From beneath you it devours". That slogan of Linear/Kronos time is certainly causing apprehension for a lot of folks. Chaos and Tragedy for SD.

Like many, I feel JW is showing BtVS as a Greek tragedy (even suggested in Restless). Empty Places nails it. Episode 7.19 is worth thousands and thousands of HS and College papers. I am sure examples of how time is structured for BtVS tragedy exist in all the eps, but 7.19 is awesome. Empty Places will always have many neat references to Aion and Linear time seen in characters/figures and heard in dialog. These presentations in 7.19 switch btwn characters so often I can not list them all. Yet if you can understand the schemes and definitions, it is great fun to see them. The writers worked very hard to do it, yet for Joss... not so much.

For the BtVS Greek tragedy, JW seems to be using something close to Northrup Fryes definition: "The basis of the tragic vision is being in time, the sense of one-directional quality of life, where everything happens once and for all, where all exprience vanishes not simply into the past, but into nothingness, annihilaton." Hence we hear BtVS dialog stating the simple word "nothing" for a hole for life to disappear into, as some characters show this. Willow in GID one example.

Is it Greek Tragedy?

In the small teaser of 7.19 Mutent Enemy Nails it from my POV. The streets of SD are in Chaos, thanks to Modern Linear time belief systems. Dramatist feel Tragedy Was Born when the ancient Greeks dissed the Concepts of Aion's Cyclic, matriarcal system based on observations of Birth-death-rebirth in their Belief systems ("the past will recur in the future"). Greeks became *modern* in switching to Kronos/Chronos/linear time systems that showed time as historical, with a past that would not again happen in the future. This time scheme did not mix at all with what Greeks saw in Natural law. Result is/was stress and uncertainty. The Greeks lived it, and showed it in Art Forms, including plays.

Demon Clem in 7.19, driving out of SD in despair, confusion, and in a straight line (time) of cars. Just as lines of pedestrians bailing out in chaos around him are doing. This has to be what the Greeks were seeing as a possibility in daily life. Clem (talking to Buffy) switchs from a natural law (colesteral exists) to thinking of Morals (abstract)to reflect his changing on the spot thinking. Clem changed from Demonic/Matriacal/Aion to Modern Linear (Kronos). There is a lot more to that scene in my humble opinion, as time can be an agent of justice.

What I see as neat and tricky speculation. In my POV three things are shown in the teaser.

The Greek Hero, Buffy (Aion in seeing time), walks in opposition/obstinance to the linear time thinking (or the SD society's impending switch to the modern linear time). Greek playwright of the time Sophocles presented (in his plays of Tragedy) that as a hero who would not adapt, the result would be disaster... the hero, feeling this as pressure, would suffer uncertainty, apprehension etc. Buffy has all that as she meets Clem.

Next, Clem points out the upcoming Hell mouth opening, and connects it to the past openings (time), amplifing the event as GOTTA be catastrophic. Buffy/Greek Hero is already apprehensive..and Buffy shows even more despair (watch Buffy's eyes) , and then thought she as the SD HERO to save the world, she should leave. Another Greek Playwrite,Euripedes cast Figures like this Buffy in his tragedies. Buffy feels less then a hero, or a "diminished hero". And thinking she should consider leaving.


The last Greek time scheme Concept as a figure is also shown in SD, and represents Greek Playwrite Aeschylus concept that time schemed to provide penalties, acting as an agent of Justice. Clem, in his dialog with Buffy, indicates he feels he needs to answer to Buffy about Swinging the cat. Clem in Linear time, must feel that a consequence (tragic) is on the way. Buffy, Hero, to the Greeks and SD, an agent of Justice. Caleb would see Clem's switching from colesteral to Morals, and worried Buffy heard him (Clem) mention swinging cats, as foreshadowing his (Caleb's) own demise.

The Greeks, way before SD, found that these three schemes of time are Unmixy, and the result is Chaos. This is reflected in the plays Greek society wrote and saw.

The following are more complete thoughts of how the Three playwrights presented TIme schemes in their plays of tragedy. All pretty much lifted from the book cited.

Aeschylus...Time as an ethical meaning, as Aeschylus presented time bringing returibution; time assessing penalties that exist in an ether; using its criteria in response to human actions.

Sophocles schemes provide for-sure disaster to someone who can not adapt themselves because of Obstinacy "to the changing demands of thier existence". Result is Hero Buffy and the scoobies, Anxiously awaiting "for a future more menacing then it is in Aeschylus' scheme. (Listen to all the obstinance in the last Scoobie meeting with Buffy in 7.19, and what do you see happening). Think of, and see how Stubbern Buffy is...maybe too often in past eps.

Eruipedies (the most important for Buffy MPOV, but all these concepts are unmixy) " Time becomes an aspect of debilitating Casualties in life. The tragic Figure (Buffy) falls *victim* to mere chance, events, or fortune". Buffy would see herself (become) less of a hero to the point of major apprehension, self Distrust, rebellion, restlessnesss, and/or fear. (Anya's rant about how lucky Buffy is, comes from Linear time, and bespeaks of the fortune concept. And Check Anya's HUGE wrist watch...yep, linear time). Ep 7.19 seems to have more subtle portrayals of this for Buffy as well.


I see the SD chaos as what must have happened in Early Greek culture (shown in Art) as they began to switch time system beliefs from Aion (past will recur as the future, cyclic, matriarchal; based on birth, death, rebirth..and Aion is linked to natural laws) to the harsh historical Kronos/Chronos linear time that provided for nothingness at the end, something the faction who saved the scythe for Buffy wanted corrected in the future. They Sacraficed to save it. Maybe like Spike.

The Scythe can not be dues ex machina....no god had a hand in its making.

****I could be wrong*****. Thanks for reading.


The rant Faith gives Buffy about Buffy not being able to follow is something else......Buffy can not follow.
Try to read my post on Why Buffy is SD's Gnostic Mary Magdalene, on Sunday.


Sunday (if the boards are working) I will repost this with some deeper thinking...........from my pov.

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