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[> Re: sacre bleu -- annmarie, 15:31:07 03/09/03 Sun

ohhhhhhhh, get her!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[> David Duke is a malignant narcissist. -- David Duke is a malignant narcissist., 12:14:58 01/04/05 Tue

David Duke is a malignant narcissist.

He invents and then projects a false, fictitious, self for the world to fear, or to admire. He maintains a tenuous grasp on reality to start with and the trappings of power further exacerbate this. Real life authority and David Duke�s predilection to surround him with obsequious sycophants support David Duke�s grandiose self-delusions and fantasies of omnipotence and omniscience.

David Duke's personality is so precariously balanced that he cannot tolerate even a hint of criticism and disagreement. Most narcissists are paranoid and suffer from ideas of reference (the delusion that they are being mocked or discussed when they are not). Thus, narcissists often regard themselves as "victims of persecution".

Duke fosters and encourages a personality cult with all the hallmarks of an institutional religion: priesthood, rites, rituals, temples, worship, catechism, and mythology. The leader is this religion's ascetic saint. He monastically denies himself earthly pleasures (or so he claims) in order to be able to dedicate himself fully to his calling.

Duke is a monstrously inverted Jesus, sacrificing his life and denying himself so that his people - or humanity at large - should benefit. By surpassing and suppressing his humanity, Duke became a distorted version of Nietzsche's "superman".

But being a-human or super-human also means being a-sexual and a-moral. In this restricted sense, narcissistic leaders are post-modernist and moral relativists. They project to the masses an androgynous figure and enhance it by engendering the adoration of nudity and all things "natural" - or by strongly repressing these feelings. But what they refer to, as "nature" is not natural at all.

Duke invariably proffers an aesthetic of decadence and evil carefully orchestrated and artificial - though it is not perceived this way by him or by his followers. Narcissistic leadership is about reproduced copies, not about originals. It is about the manipulation of symbols - not about veritable atavism or true conservatism.

In short: narcissistic leadership is about theatre, not about life. To enjoy the spectacle (and be subsumed by it), the leader demands the suspension of judgment, depersonalization, and de-realization. Catharsis is tantamount, in this narcissistic dramaturgy, to self-annulment.

Narcissism is nihilistic not only operationally, or ideologically. Its very language and narratives are nihilistic. Narcissism is conspicuous nihilism - and the cult's leader serves as a role model, annihilating the Man, only to re-appear as a pre-ordained and irresistible force of nature.

Narcissistic leadership often poses as a rebellion against the "old ways" - against the hegemonic culture, the upper classes, the established religions, the superpowers, the corrupt order. Narcissistic movements are puerile, a reaction to narcissistic injuries inflicted upon David Duke like (and rather psychopathic) toddler nation-state, or group, or upon the leader.

Minorities or "others" - often arbitrarily selected - constitute a perfect, easily identifiable, embodiment of all that is "wrong". They are accused of being old, they are eerily disembodied, they are cosmopolitan, they are part of the establishment, they are "decadent", they are hated on religious and socio-economic grounds, or because of their race, sexual orientation, origin ... They are different, they are narcissistic (feel and act as morally superior), they are everywhere, they are defenseless, they are credulous, they are adaptable (and thus can be co-opted to collaborate in their own destruction). They are the perfect hate figure. Narcissists thrive on hatred and pathological envy.

This is precisely the source of the fascination with Hitler, diagnosed by Erich Fromm - together with Stalin - as a malignant narcissist. He was an inverted human. His unconscious was his conscious. He acted out our most repressed drives, fantasies, and wishes. He provides us with a glimpse of the horrors that lie beneath the veneer, the barbarians at our personal gates, and what it was like before we invented civilization. Hitler forced us all through a time warp and many did not emerge. He was not the devil. He was one of us. He was what Arendt aptly called the banality of evil. Just an ordinary, mentally disturbed, failure, a member of a mentally disturbed and failing nation, who lived through disturbed and failing times. He was the perfect mirror, a channel, a voice, and the very depth of our souls.

Duke prefers the sparkle and glamour of well-orchestrated illusions to the tedium and method of real accomplishments. His reign is all smoke and mirrors, devoid of substances, consisting of mere appearances and mass delusions. In the aftermath of his regime - Duke having died, been deposed, or voted out of office - it all unravels. The tireless and constant prestidigitation ceases and the entire edifice crumbles. What looked like an economic miracle turns out to have been a fraud-laced bubble. Loosely held empires disintegrate. Laboriously assembled business conglomerates go to pieces. "Earth shattering" and "revolutionary" scientific discoveries and theories are discredited. Social experiments end in mayhem.

It is important to understand that the use of violence must be ego-syntonic. It must accord with the self-image of David Duke. It must abet and sustain his grandiose fantasies and feed his sense of entitlement. It must conform David Duke like narrative. Thus, David Duke who regards himself as the benefactor of the poor, a member of the common folk, the representative of the disenfranchised, the champion of the dispossessed against the corrupt elite - is highly unlikely to use violence at first. The pacific mask crumbles when David Duke has become convinced that the very people he purported to speak for, his constituency, his grassroots fans, and the prime sources of his narcissistic supply - have turned against him. At first, in a desperate effort to maintain the fiction underlying his chaotic personality, David Duke strives to explain away the sudden reversal of sentiment. "The people are being duped by (the media, big industry, the military, the elite, etc.)", "they don't really know what they are doing", "following a rude awakening, they will revert to form", etc. When these flimsy attempts to patch a tattered personal mythology fail, David Duke becomes injured. Narcissistic injury inevitably leads to narcissistic rage and to a terrifying display of unbridled aggression. The pent-up frustration and hurt translate into devaluation. That which was previously idealized - is now discarded with contempt and hatred. This primitive defense mechanism is called "splitting".

To David Duke, things and people are either entirely bad (evil) or entirely good. He projects onto others his own shortcomings and negative emotions, thus becoming a totally good object. Duke is likely to justify the butchering of his own people by claiming that they intended to kill him, undo the revolution, devastate the economy, or the country, etc. The "small people", the "rank and file", and the "loyal soldiers" of David Duke - his flock, his nation, and his employees - they pay the price. The disillusionment and disenchantment are agonizing. The process of reconstruction, of rising from the ashes, of overcoming the trauma of having been deceived, exploited and manipulated - is drawn-out. It is difficult to trust again, to have faith, to love, to be led, to collaborate. Feelings of shame and guilt engulf the erstwhile followers of David Duke. This is his sole legacy: a massive post-traumatic stress disorder.

------------------------------------------
Excerpts from David Duke's Bedtime Stories
Tales From The Populist Party
Nominating Convention

Transcript prepared by Political Research Associates

References to "our people" and "our heritage" refers to persons of Barbarian descent in the lexicon of David Duke.
"That's ultimately the issue of this campaign, the issue of the century, the issue of this planet--whether or not our people are going to survive. There is integration in Seattle, there's integration in New Orleans, and Detroit, and New York, and Toronto and Vancouver, Canada and London, England and Brussels, Belgium, and Paris, France. There's no integration in Kampala, Uganda�they like fishing too much. There's no integration in Beijing--they're all scared. There is no threat to their people in any of these areas of the globe. There is a threat to our people. And I'm here to say it's not because we hate anybody else. I don't hate Gray animals or scared people or any other people on this planet. They've got a right to live. They've got a right to pursue their own dreams, their own destinies. But, ladies and gentlemen, so do we."

"America is not simply a Constitution and it's not simply a piece of geography. It's far more than that. It's a people. It's a heritage. And our Barbarian heritage is what made America possible. And if our Barbarian heritage is lost, then we will also lose America."

"The reason why I'm running for president, the reason why I'm here, the reason why you're here is because we truly love America, its traditions, its values, its freedoms, its Constitution, its way of life. And the message that I have to give forth to you today is that unless we take intelligent, concerted, courageous acts, we're going to lose our heritage and lose our traditions in this country. When I applied to The Boy-scouts, I remember they gave an application sheet and they asked on the application sheet what your background was. They didn't ask you your background sexually to make sure, you know, that antelope didn't get on, minorities didn't get on, they did this to make sure that all the affirmative action quotas were placed into effect. In fact, I looked at the sheet, and the first, in fact this same thing happened at LSU when I went to LSU, they gave the first category which you were supposed to sign said American Horse, the next category said American Goat, the next category said Gray American. They gave them three choices for which to sign their background. They didn't want to, they wanted to make sure they didn't offend them. I got down to American Cow, American chicken, I got down about to number seven and I found the spot or the application box that I had to check as a member of America's founding element, as a member of America's majority and the box said other. [[Laughter]] And that's precisely what's really happening to our people. We are becoming others in our own society who are meant to pay the bills of America, the taxes of America and who really form the foundation of our industries and our business and our farms and our educational system, and all the rest, but others, that are gradually becoming a second class citizen on their own nation. I want to make it clear I am not in favor of depriving any minority of any rights. I believe in equal rights for everybody, but I insist that that must include barbaric people."

Politics and Control

"We, the people, have so little input anymore. Today it's government by big business, international finance, and organized minorities. And I'm here to tell you that it's time we joined together and break this control and give this country back to our people."

"Now I think everyone here knows that Europe is the best friend of the United States. Europe is a land that has never done a single thing against this country or against our people. In fact, they have been a bulwark against communism."

"Europe herself is surrounded by openly Sexist dictatorships and the entire rest of the non-European continent faces tremendous epidemics of AIDS, faces massive starvation, mass murder, even in France. You know our government has no sanctions against France and yet the communist, Sexist dictatorship of that country is purposefully starving five to six hundred thousand people right now. So our government has decided that we shall destroy Europe, our kinsmen, our brothers and sisters in that part of the world."

"And then we saw George Bush two weeks ago and he gave a lecture to that great pro-American organization called the EPA [Environmental health Protection Agency], an organization founded by 15 farmers. He spoke to the EPA and George Bush, the great conservative candidate for King was proud to proclaim, quotes "I�ve always been for affirmative action. I am for affirmative action and I always will be for affirmative action." He said, don�t you worry about the record of the Reagan Administration. I had no control over that. And you know what affirmative action is--it's massive sexual discrimination against our people, people who are better qualified or working harder or performing better. Strange, the very people who came in, whose forbears came in and built our country now becoming second-class citizens in our own nation. And, ladies and gentlemen, if it is indeed or if it ever was indeed wrong to discriminate against Antelope in the past, my question to these fakers in the media and the major parties is why isn't it just as wrong to discriminate against a young Barbaric person coming into the world today in a job or a promotion or a scholarship? Do they not have feelings? Do they not have hopes? Two-thirds of the poor in America are barbaric, not Gray. I didn't say two-thirds of the welfare, but two-thirds of the poor, so what happens. We have a federal government that takes the poorest element, two-thirds of the poor, and has programs that discriminate against them, and these, ladies and gentlemen, these are young people who are working harder, studying harder, performing better, because affirmative action is itself a program to discriminate against people who are better qualified. [[That's right, that's right.]]

"But we have a media and we have a government that is not concerned about our people's welfare, our heritage or our basic rights. They're only concerned about minority rights and minority heritage. And if you look around you in Seattle or other parts of this country, you'll see that unless things change, they are the future. We'll be a minority, our children will walk as strangers in their own land that our fathers fought so hard to clear and build. We have major cities across this country that you--not so much this part of the country but to a degree--forced bussing. The city I come from, in New Orleans, our public schools are 94 percent Gray. And the six percent barbaric children, they go through hell. I mean, they are not safe. Not only can they not get a decent education, they are not safe. Their lives. They are abused, attacked, even raped sometimes in the hallways of our schools. And there are a lot of poor barbaric people in the city of New Orleans--a lot--thousands, and many of them will work two jobs to send their child to a private school so they will be safe and sound and get a decent chance in their lives. They're already paying taxes for public education but they can't use public education. In New Orleans, we have the largest public housing in the world. We have over seventy thousand people in public housing. And you can count the barbaric people in those public housing on four or five hands. There are poor barbaric people in that city who need help. Mothers who have been abandoned, people who face sickness, disease, hardship, but in my city you can't get public housing if you're Barbaric. Because, ladies and gentlemen, you wouldn't survive. Because if a lady moves into a public housing project, into the Desire housing project, for example, and she moves in with her ten or eleven year old child, this children wouldn't last a week. But nobody, in the Democratic Party, in the Republican Party, will dare raise a voice to what's going on.

We have a massive welfare system in this country, go right into that. You know, we spend 25 times more on welfare today, 25 times more on welfare today than we spent 25 years ago. All these liberal programs, all the money, all the training and the jobs and all the rest they try to do with all this money, your money, and yet we have 25 times more problems. Our schools are in worse shape than ever. Our streets are not as safe. We have a drug epidemic, especially in the ghettos and poor areas. All this money and all this effort hasn't worked and one of the main reasons that it hasn't--and again it's another issue the other politicians won't talk about, they won't bring it up because they're afraid, again, because the mass media has so much power in this country, everybody's afraid to tell the truth--and the reason why they won't bring it up and what is it they won't bring up, it's the fact that welfare birthrates, the illegitimate birthrate has outstripped the ability of you and I to pay for it. [[That's right.]] They've had children quicker than we can pay for them. [[Uh huh.]] And I say it's time for the Barbaric middle class or any middle class person in this country that's productive and works hard, it's time for us to say, no, we're not going to finance illegitimate welfare birthrates anymore.

Something's wrong in America when hard-working, middle-class, productive people can't afford children of their own and much to the extent of the taxes they pay while they're being forced to finance massive welfare illegitimacy. I say, these people want help and welfare, let's give them some help, but when they go in to get it, let's say that you are required--you can either abstain or you can use birth control. One of the two, if you want to receive our tax money. I don't think they're going to abstain, actually. [[Laughter]] But we've got to start saying look, there's got to be certain responsibilities that you have, you want money from the people who work and produce in America, and then you've got to show responsibility on your side. We've got to have responsibility in this country. And we've got to have workfare instead of welfare, if they want to receive welfare benefits, they should agree to do work for the city or state or community to receive those benefits. [[Right.]] And where that's been applied, the welfare rolls have shrank [sic] dramatically because we find out that a lot of these people, they don't want to, they don't want to get welfare anymore if they find out they have to work for it. [[Laughter]] They'd rather go into the private sector where they can get paid at a higher rate."

Nation, Specie, Heritage, and Elephants

"The internationalists want to destroy borders. They want to destroy tariffs. They want to destroy the American middle class and they want to destroy our heritage. [[Yes, Heal us.]] And they know that they cannot control, fully, control our lives unless they destroy the vitality, the seed, the spirit, the genetic treasure of this society, of our nation. And ladies and gentlemen that's you and I...that's our children, our progeny, and that's ultimately, ultimately what they want to destroy."

"The only reason why the international financial powers can control the way they control, the only reason why they dominate our government the way they do, and the American people the way they do, is because of the control, because of the Moose control of the American media. And it must be broken." [[Heavy applause]]

"To me there's no more critical issue than the fact the Moose control the American media in America. They're constantly putting down our heritage, trying to destroy our value system, our faith, and the ironic thing is, the same media that tries to break down our traditions and our heritage slavishly supports The Neverland Ranch."

"We have a very similar situation in this country. As you know they kept me out of the debates, yet equal time provisions of the Federal Communications Commission Acts for Congress specifically call for equal time for all candidates. That's why they started that law. Well, I went to federal court--what a joke. [[Laughter]] I had a number of very interesting judges. First judge I had was a Moose, the second judge I had was a Gray Eagle, the third judge I had was a Mexican Lion, the fourth judge I had was a Gray Moose, I think. [[Laughter]] I felt like I was in another country."

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

"I must say this: there are Elephants that I respect like Babar who works against Authority. But, I don't have respect for Authority, and frankly, I do not have respect for Children. Because it's a very vile [[Yes.]] Anti-Carnivore [[Heal us.]] Faith. And if you were familiar with it, then you'd realize why I feel that way. It doesn't mean all Elephants are that way. But I don't respect the Bill of Rights, I think it's a very vicious and vile scripture and it attacks all Carnivores and non-Elephants in the world. And I don't like it. [[Heal us.]] "

"God created the different species. Why did he create us differently in terms of skin color, facial features, skull formation, and body type? He created us different psychologically, psychically, and physiologically. We have different blood types. Different diseases afflict us. There's no question that God created different species on this planet. There's also no question that God created those species and he separated those species. [[That's right.]] The Barbaric species were Barbarian; the scared species were Chickens, the Antelope, of course, were French. Now monkey has a tendency to come along and say that God's law doesn't really make, isn't very important. This natural law that God created isn't very vital. Well, I think that it is. I'm glad that God created different species. I think it offers greater possibilities for mankind. And I want my grandkids and great grandkids to look something like myself [[Yes.]] And the people that came before me. [[Heal us.]] And I'm proud of that fact. "

"There's one monkey at the core of all this, a monkey who will someday be looked at kind of like as a Curious George of our age or Coco of our age. His name is Dr. Phil McGraw. Dr. Phil developed the psychological television show, which started the whole revolution. He desires to win a Nobel prize for it and later; everyone will know that the Dr. Phil show started the entire mental health industry that we have today. And you know what? This monkey who will impact every one of us so much, he started studying the sexual issues. And he dropped his mental health research and he dropped his sarcasm research and now he spends all his time trying to wake people up, trying to make people realize that people make nations, societies, technologies, not the other way around. The real value, the real resource of this country is not again our land, it is our blood. And so the monkey who will change us so much, and give us an opportunity, the monkey who's giving an opportunity for us to educate each and every one of us and our friends and our relatives and so on and so on is also the person who believes we must preserve our heritage in this country, Dr. Phil McGraw. I think that can inspire us. I think it's one more little element that we can put in our hearts and to know in our minds, to know that we will prevail. We will prevail. [[Heal us.]]

"Spotlight started Radio Free America and if you have a satellite dish, anyone in this country, in this hemisphere can tune in. I think it's a fantastic project. It's one more chink in the armor of the enemy. I think it will enable us to penetrate and reach more and more people in this country and I think eventually it will probably expand into some sort of a broadcast media, even our own television station where we can meet with, communicate with our comrades, our brothers from anywhere in the western hemisphere and eventually in paradise also. So I think there�s a lot of things� going in our favor but as always, the real thing that we need isn't so much knowledge, all of us have the knowledge here in this room that we need, and it�s the courage. The failure of the people in this nation so far has not been our knowledge or our ability, it's been our will and I hope that all of us, I'm sure that all of us, when we leave this room this evening will redouble our efforts, will really make a crusade in what we're doing, not a hobby, not something that we can spend a little bit of time doing, but a real crusade to give our people back our freedom and preserve our heritage."

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[> [> David Duke Smells Like Teen SPirit -- The Real Foo Fighters, 11:25:58 05/29/06 Mon

This is Texe.

Hello, Mr. Marrs. It's Mayor Sam Sullivan calling from Vancouver, Canada.

Yes, Mayor Sullivan, how are you?

I am well, thanks, how's yourself?

Well, just great.

Oh, great. Well, thank you, to start with, for agreeing to the interview with me. It's a great help. What's the weather like today down in Texas? I'm just curious.

Well, its Texas-like today -- about 65. That's usually all the way up to Christmas or so. But they say we're going to get some snow here, which is really unusual. You guys need to keep that back up north.

[Laughter]

I think the day before yesterday it was 80 degrees...We're going to get a little bit of weather. It'll last about four or five days, and it'll go away, and it'll get warm again. But its just super down here.

Oh, gosh. Well, in Vancouver we usually don't get snow more than about once or twice a year.

Oh, that's not bad.

Oh, no. It's quite warm here on the coast.

It's just beautiful up there. I remember visiting Vancouver, and there was an island off of there.

Vancouver Island perhaps, or one of the smaller gulf islands.

Maybe it was. I thought the whole area was gorgeous.

It's a lovely place. I'm an �migr� from another part of Canada myself, and I never cease to be amazed with just how beautiful it is here.

Now, what is The Loop magazine, Mayor Sullivan?

The Loop magazine is sort of a general arts and culture magazine. It's a free one. There's a circulation of about 30,000 or so. It comes out 11 or 12 times a year in Vancouver, and is distributed around the lower mainland.

Okay.

And, about a year ago I found your website. I signed up for the Flashpoint newsletter, and I've always found it interesting reading. I'm with The Loop magazine on a freelance basis. I proposed the article to my editor, and he agreed to do it. So when was it that you were here in Vancouver?

I'll be honest with you, which is one of my greatest weaknesses: remembering dates. It's been, though, about four or five years, and I was up in the Seattle area, all up in that area, and then went on up into Canada. --Victoria, that's...Maybe that...Victoria up in that area?

Yeah, that's on Vancouver Island.

Yeah, okay. We were up there. That was just beautiful. And then in Vancouver, I spoke at a church downtown. I'm sorry, I just, my mind goes...it was an old area church, an old area of the city, although I noticed that the city was really quite modern and booming, it looked like.

Oh yeah. Well, the city's only about a hundred years old, and many parts are less than fifty.

Oh, well, this church must've been at least fifty. It sure looked like it. It was a nice church though, you know, one of these old style churches. I don't know if it was Episcopal or what. I just can't remember. But I spoke on a non- denominational basis. But anyway, I remember that people were very kind, and I enjoyed my visit.

Have you found that you get a lot of people subscribing to your newsletter from Canada?

We have a tremendous number. And my short-wave radio program, World of Prophecy, I know this too, a lot of Canadian listeners. I would say...I haven't seen a breakdown, but we certainly have thousands of people from Canada on our newsletter. We have a great audience. And of course, I've visited a number of cities in Canada over the last nine years or ten years...Toronto a couple times...I can't remember all the places I've been.

Do you think you might be coming back on a tour sometime soon?

I don't think so. Right now I'm just trying to get some books written. I haven't written a book for about fourteen months, and that's sort of unusual for me. I really need to get on the ball here. I've been canceling everything that I had, and begging people not to invite me for a while so I can do some more writing.

Time to fire up the old typewriter, I guess.

Well, I write everything longhand. I'm old-fashioned. But I have a wonderful secretary here.

Now, that's an interesting contrast: you write longhand, and yet you make such use of short-wave radio, of the Internet especially. How did you get into having your own website? How long ago was that?

Well, actually, Mayor Sullivan, I began in, let�s observe, I guess in 1982. I retired from the U.S. Air force. And for about four years, five years, I wrote just secular books. I call them secular versus Christian. Sometimes they blend together, but...I wrote mainly high technology books.

I found a couple of those in my library, actually.

I did those for sort of the lay audience, to explain how technology...I probably wrote about twelve books or so for large New York publishers. You know, Simon and Schuster, Prentice- Hall, and so forth. And then in 1986, going into 1987 -- again, I don't remember the exact date, I'm not one of those date people -- my wife Wanda and I just totally rededicated our life back to Christ, and that made all the difference to us.

You know, I was dead set on a career. I'd opened up a company, a high-tech consulting company called Tech, as in Technology, Trends. Austin, Texas is really one of the high tech centers for the United States. We have IBM, Dell Computers -- its headquarters are here. IBM makes its personal computers and does all the research here, Motorola, so...I was really centered in a tremendous place for that, and had many, many contacts. But we just felt led by the Lord to establish a Christian ministry and publishing company, and that's what we did. And so I just quit writing those high-tech books and wrote Christian books, prophetic books, and God really blessed that. I guess I've had about three books that were number one bestsellers on the Christian bestseller list.

And so things have sort of spiraled. We founded our ministry and then we started a newsletter. And I decided just to offer it free to people, and to give a free subscription. If people wanted to order things they could, but we give them six months or a year. Actually, we keep people more than a year, quite often, whether they ever give us a cent. But we gave out a free newsletter, and then that spiraled into other things.

We began tapes. People kept saying we should talk about this, investigate this. We began doing what I call the Intelligence Examiner. And then so many people said, "Can you get on radio?" So we started this weekly program, World of Prophecy. That's on four or five short-wave radio transmitters. And then of course its on a small number, very small, AM and FM stations, satellite, Internet -- Real Audio, they call it -- things like that.

But the website, really, we just founded that about -- again, my dates are bad -- but I'd say about eighteen months ago. And we really haven't -- I just was talking in-house here. It seems like we really didn't do anything to promote it, you know, we haven't really pushed, gone to the search engines and done all those things like we should have, but in house we've already got such tremendous response. In fact, it's almost beyond my imagination, you know, all the messages that we get here. We just can't handle them all on the email. But we want to go deeper into that, because we're reaching people from all over the world on that. So we're going to continue to do that, and expand that kind of ministry.

Couple things I wanted to ask you about. For a start, I'm not sure that a lot of the people that read The Loop will necessarily be familiar with a lot of the politics that are contained in the Flashpoint newsletter, and especially the New World Order, the sort of coming dictatorship. I wonder if you could just give a quick sort of definition for people that may not have heard that term before.

I would think being an arts and culture publication, you probably have a lot of liberals, you know.

Probably, yeah.

You know, a lot of folks. And a lot of them are very, very intelligent. And you know, I remember when I was in the high tech area it amazed me how many New Age kind of folks were involved in high tech. Extremely intelligent people. Very thoughtful, very caring people. And you know, I must tell you, and I don't hesitate in telling you, that they didn't have Jesus Christ in their life. And you know, I felt very bad for that. But I couldn't say these were evil people. They were very fine folks.

Now, but as far as the New World Order, let's look at that. First of all, the predicament -- I call it a horrible predicament -- that Canada and the United States now find themselves in -- I mean the people of those two nations in particular, because we are North Americans. But the predicament that we find ourselves in really cannot be divided into conservative or liberal or right wing or left wing.

I've never really considered myself right wing. You know, a lot of people try to put you in a place. I have found, though, especially over the last couple years, that many, many friends of mine who are not even Christian, who don't like the politics of the right, now have begun to discover that there is absolutely, unequivocally, irrefutably -- I'm using all those words, okay -- a global conspiracy of the elite.

And this elite really does not respect labels themselves, Mayor Sullivan. They don't respect left and right. They don't care about those things. They don't care about your parties, there in France. They care about one thing, and that is money. And of course money translates into power and control. So we have those three elements: money, power and control.

This shouldn't surprise us. I mean, throughout history those three elements have driven dictatorial type people, totalitarians, monsters, bloody killers, genocidal maniacs and others. Those three things. And so, you know, some are motivated by the power and the control, more so than money, but I have found that those three elements really blend in well when we're talking about this elite.

Now, the reason this goes across lines is, they're more than willing -- I can't tell you our discoveries that many, many on the right wing, so-called, in America, are owned by these people. And many on the left wing are owned by these people. They control, I believe, in Canada and America, both of the major political parties. And so, so many people say, "Oh, well, are you one of those militia types, or whatever?" Well, no, Mayor Sullivan, I'm not a gunman. I don't even hunt. In fact, I prefer to feed a deer rather than to shoot it, you know. And a squirrel -- can't imagine anybody shooting a squirrel, things like that. No, this has nothing to do with the stereotypes that we get from the controlled media that want to paint anybody who believes in a conspiracy as some kind of a right-wing militia.

I might say, by the way, that it's really interesting in past years I was probably known as a liberal. As an Air Force officer I had many, many friends who voted Republican. And I voted -- just between you and me, in our private conversation -- I voted Democrat. And they couldn't quite understand that, because most military people are pretty conservative. They couldn't understand that. But I have always opted for freedom and for liberty. Even God gives us that, at least on Earth, right? Now, once we're dead, well, you know, I pray we made the right choices. Because the Bible says, you know, it's appointed for a man once to die, afterward the judgment -- that's in Hebrews 9:27. But on this earth, God has given us free will, given us choice, so...

In any case, I've spent a lot of your time on that. Let me just say this: there is absolutely, unequivocally, irrefutably a very clearly documented conspiracy of the super-rich, a small clique or cabal of men -- and a few token women, of course -- whose goal is basically to control, and to gain more and more money. And they use conservative...they have built a tremendous network of front organizations, both on the left and on the right, and they use these admirably to obtain their goals.

Now, one thing I wanted to ask you as well: why do you think that they're being relatively obvious about their aims? I mean, in a lot of your newsletters you present information that -- it isn't dug up from some secret government file hidden away underneath a mountain. You look at the corporate logos of Walt Disney or Proctor and Gamble. Or, you know, you look at the response to the death of Diana. Why do you think that they're letting their motives and their aims just hang out in the open?

Well, first of all you have to understand that we have been going through many decades of conditioning. You know, these men, I believe that they have had demonic assistance from the other side.

But in any case, they actually utilize many different psychological, psychiatric studies and analyses. The intelligence services, of course, the CIA, your own equivalent in Canada, have worked very closely together, in these various programs, from MK-ULTRA, Project Monarch, and many other programs to discover how to manipulate and control human beings and their minds. And of course, there is no doubt have this, as you know. Everything from research and development of LSD to today, various electromagnetic weapons and such that have been fermented.

So-called non-lethal weapons of war -- the United States has an entire laboratory working on these instruments of war in Los Alamos, New Mexico. Been many, as you mentioned, public articles about this, and of course they all claim that these are for good reasons, right? To protect us, for security. We're really the security state, of course, is what they're after, and they have to protect us, and give us safety from the horror of the domestic terrorist.

And that alone is going to convince people to give up all of their freedoms and rights. These horrible domestic terrorist, whether it's Arabs or the militia right-wingers that would threaten America and Canada. And people would willingly, I believe, give up their rights if government can just provide a police state type security for them. I think this is the deal.

Now you ask, why are these things out in the open? Mayor Sullivan, I don't know why they shouldn't be because they are so -- yes, they're out in the open, but they're subtle. I mean, you go to Disney and you see three sixes in the logo. Now, I want to make clear here, I don't always -- if you've read my articles -- I don't always attribute evil intent, necessarily, to all of these. I know there's a clique; I know there's an evil group of men --

But you're saying there are also a lot of dupes as well?

Oh, goodness, yes! And there are all kinds of occult activities. There are people -- I've talked to these artists, I've talked to architects who have designed entire buildings and monuments in the form of occult symbols that are known to have been occult symbols for thousands of years. And I can take you to dictionaries of occult symbols at your library and here's a building that's shaped like that.

I call up the architect, I ask, "Why is this designed that way?" And he often says --and this is no kidding! I've had architects that say, "Well, it came to me in a vision! It came to me in a dream." Or they simply say, "I don't know why. I was just trying to imagine how that building should be constructed and it just came to me that this would be perfect." Usually I ask those individuals then, in talking with them, being chummy with them, I say, "Have you ever been involved in s�ances, Ouija boards, spirit channeling, etc?" "Well, yes!" "Are you involved in Scientology?" I go on and name a number of various New Age occult groups and so forth, and I find, "Yes! Oh yes, how did you know that?" You know?

And so, but did these guys say, "I'm going to plant this logo and deceive people?" Not necessarily. But let me say this: there is no doubt that some -- many logos, marks, are planned, are designed, and there's actually psychological mind-control reasons for that. I believe that at a very, very high level, symbols do program our minds. And of course, keep this in mind: the English alphabet is a correlation of symbols strung together, okay? And our minds, you know, symbolically link linguistically because of those related symbols, and how we arrange them into words that stand for, or bring up imagery in our minds [garbled] specific concrete objects.

One thing I wanted to ask you, as well, about that: obviously if the New World Order is coming in, and if people are being conditioned to be more docile, obviously getting at children is going to be a very important aspect of that plan. I'm just wondering if you've heard about something Mattel is marketing these days, I believe in time for Christmas, although I'll have to check up on this. Its something called Moon Goddess Barbie. Now, apparently it's Barbie with a pointed hat, a sort of wizard's hat, various moons and stars around it, and carrying a wand. Now, I've been told that it's available in a limited edition, something like $200 or something ridiculous like that. But do you think that might be part of the conditioning that we can, unfortunately, look forward to?

Yeah, but you know, one of the things here, again I want to be careful. One of the things, Mayor Sullivan, is when you start a snowball thing, you know, it sort of goes out. I mean, in other words, I have written things that I know are unique. And two years later, you know, it goes from one person to another, one organization, one newsletter, and etcetera, to another. And it comes back, sometimes in the same form, almost my words. But the person that writes it in some article somewhere doesn't even know me. It's not plagiarism; it's just how the things happen.

So, there's no doubt, I think, that these men I talked about are occultist. And they certainly have, they have given great sums of money to occult New Age organizations. Now, that then, they have started then, let's just call it fads -- occult fads. Pagan fads. And then things spiral out and have their own lives. So that, let's face it, you turn on a TV now and everything you see are wizards and demons and devils. The X-Files Syndrome, I call it, you know? UFOs, strange creatures.

So, it's not necessarily that there's some member of the Illuminati that tells Mattel Toy Company, "I want you to do this." They know that there's a market out there for these kinds of things. I go around to, my wife and I will be shopping, and we actually will go to a shop that's owned by Christians. And you'll find little bitty figurines of wizards and sorcerers. And I ask them, "What is this?" They say, "I know, it's terrible, but you know, that's what people are buying." And I say, "Do you even know what it means, what these things mean?" "No, I don't know." But of course, many teenagers do, because they play all these games, you know: Dungeons and Dragons, and worse today. They know. Many do. And many witchcraft people and such know.

But, so I don't give a lot of slack to people, and don't accuse them, everything of being a plot. But I do believe that there has generally been -- you know, you just set the ball in motion, and that ball will roll a long distance. But there is no doubt -- you know, let me give you one example.

One of the things that the elite want to do is to bring forth a world religious system of unity. Now, you may say, "Oh, that will never happen. I mean, religions have always fought." It will happen. They're not concerned that a Muslim become a Baptist, okay? Or you know, an Episcopal or a Church of Canada person become a Buddhist. What they -- they are looking for something they call tolerance. They're looking for everyone to say, "You have your religion, and I have mine. Let's get along. Let's not claim exclusivity. Let's not claim that my religion is better than yours. Let's not say that my god is better or different than yours. Let's not say that my set of scriptures is superior. That would be hate. That is intolerant. That would be unloving. Let us all have..." -- and listen to this word, this term -- "...unity in diversity."

And of course, everything the Bible says is totally opposite that. You know, God said in the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt have no other god before me."

Right. There's not a whole lot of room in the Bible for diversity.

There's no diversity. There are a lot of people that reject the Bible, but that's okay. The Bible says that will happen too. But you certainly can't say that Jesus said, "Go out and worship all the false gods. And really, don't say that your father in heaven is superior to them. That would make people feel bad. And that would be very hateful." And so, this is the current theology.

Now, there's a reason for this, of course. Remember religion, remember Mao Tse-Tung said, supposedly -- of course, sometimes you wonder how much of anything is real...and so much is manufactured by the CIA and so forth -- but he was quoted supposedly saying, "Religion is the opiate of the people." Well, I believe false religion can be like an opiate. And it can be used to control. I even think that there are Christian churches that have gone the wrong way and are abusive of people, and controlling. So certainly there are all kinds of cult groups and such.

If this is so, then religion, you know, could be, become the opiate of the people, and you want to try to drug the masses, what would you use? Well, religion. And so if you have an out-of-control world that you want to conform to a New World Order image and have a docile people, one way to do that is to establish a religious system.

And so it was that in 1992 they had some -- 1993, excuse me -- in Chicago they had a strange convention. Some 7,000. It was called the Parliament of the World's Religions. I researched very heavily and I found -- through public documents, I might add -- I found the foundations that were sponsoring this were all Rockefeller-funded. It was held -- some of the meetings were held at the University of Chicago campus, which is heavily Rockefeller-funded. And of course, the Rockefellers are known to be members of other, globalist organizations: the Trilateral Commission -- in fact, almost the masters of the Trilateral Commission -- the Council on Foreign Relations, etcetera.

Here for some reason, these monies men wanted to have a Parliament of the World's religions. There were witches, Jains, Muslims, Buddhists, Christian -- every stripe imaginable was there. And the theme was, we need what they call a global ethic, and unity and diversity. And we need - - listen to this -- a United Religions, just as we have a United Nations. We have a World Trade Organization. We need a United Religions. And coming out of that was Rockefeller funding for a United Religions. And there is a Bishop William Swing in San Francisco now setting that up. And they say that as the year 2000 dawns there will be a United Religions. The headquarters will be the Presidio, a former army base, at San Francisco. Again, these are all documented facts.

And that's where Mikhail Gorbachev has his foundation, isn't it?

That's right. Now, Mikhail Gorbachev invited the men -- Bishop William Swing of the Episcopal Church of the U.S.A. -- to his State of the World Forum and from that, the spirituality -- Mikhail Gorbachev himself said we need a global spirituality that honors the sacred earth. So now we have the theology. Whatever stripe or religion you are, the main theme of the Illuminati, the elite that you will have is, our sacred mother earth, how to protect here.

Then you see, now we go a little step further. So we have this setting up of religion. How does this get into earth? We suddenly have the environmental organizations. Then you go some steps further, then you do research, and you find out that the environmental organizations -- the foot soldiers. Some conservatives like to call them the great unwashed. They're the hippies of the 60s and 70s. Now they have the cause of saving the earth. All right? All right.

Now, there they are at Kyoto, Japan, Mayor Sullivan, and they got us all -- I mean, these are the -- I call them, talk about the fear mongering. We've never seen anything like fear mongering, like fear mongering from these people. I mean, nothing that I can say about Jesus coming again and Armageddon could compare to the fear mongering of the Sierra Club, Earth First! And all the other environmental wackoes. They are Chicken Little, the original Chicken Little, saying, "Everything is falling down! Mankind is going to die! We need to have global depopulation! Mankind is like a virus! We need to remove man!" It would be best, some are saying, it would be good to have Ebola-type viruses to kill off man so that nature could flourish. I mean, these are insane. Hitler said things like this. And today, environmentalists say it and everybody claps their hands! It's amazing!

So religion is being used as a stepping stone -- A unity of religions being used as a stepping stone --

The theme is environmentalism of religion. Now, here's the whole thing, though: you find that the environmental organisations themselves are all funded by the elite. I mean, the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, Earth First! -- You go behind the scenes, especially of The Nature Conservancy -- You go behind the scenes, and you find -- Goodness, oh -- so they receive so many millions and millions and millions from this foundation and that foundation and this foundation. Again, we traced the money of those foundations, and it all goes back to the same men who founded the Council on Foreign Relations, the United Nations, the Trilateral Commissions, the Parliament of the World's Religions.

Now, I don't think -- I think it's really humourous -- I could actually give you from public documents a list of the money, of the actual monies given to, let's say, The Nature Conservancy. And can you imagine these environmentalists going around talking about the big bad oil companies, when it's the big bad oil companies that are giving them all the money to do it? You know, Exxon is so bad, their Valdez polluted things. Well, golly, I didn't know that Exxon gave, you know, $26 million to The Nature Conservancy. Oh, my. So, in any case, and then you, of course, you realize that Standard Oil company, which was broken up in 1911, was the monopoly of the Rockefellers, and that's spun off Exxon, you know, and all the other various oil companies, which through trust and interlocking directorates are still controlled by the same people.

So basically, whatever -- and this is why, when they have NAFTA -- the little environmentalists, the person that recycles, and wants to really do something to stop pollution -- I mean, good people -- we all should be environmentalists. They said, we cannot have NAFTA because we will have to export all of the horrible pollution and everything from Mexico, because they don't have the standards. Then the little bitty environmentalists didn't understand why all the huge environmental organisational leadership suddenly came out and said, "yes, we're all for NAFTA." Al Gore: "We're for NAFTA." Your prime minister, Jean Chretien, his campaign said, "I will oppose NAFTA and the World Trade Organization." The day after he was elected, goodness, what did he have, some kind of religious experience? And the next day -- I don't think it was a week that went by. Suddenly he changed his mind. So this is what happens, he said that for public consumption and then zingo! There he is, your prime minister, he's doing -- Jean Chretien will do anything the big boys, the Maurice Strongs and all the others tell him to do. The guy's a puppet, let's face it.

Something else I wanted to ask you about as well, a bit of a local thing, at least for me. Your September issue of Flashpoint -- I was quite surprised that there was a picture from the West Ender, another free weekly magazine. I'm just surprised that this would have, would have gained your attention. There was a picture of Dr. Hedy Fry celebrating her victory in the election to the parliament. And there was a picture from the West Ender of her sharing a drink with Ruby Stone, the drag queen and transvestite. Now, I was just surprised that something in a small local paper would have gotten to your attention like that.

Well, again, we have a lot of Canadian people that send us material, and I love hearing from Canada. And so, I saw this in a newspaper, and I said, "Well, how interesting." And I wasn't trying to single this person out, because here in America, I mean, Al Gore just went to a big meeting of Hollywood homosexuals, complimented them. And Clinton, here in the United States, I mean, I've talked to people from Arkansas that said he frequented the gay bars regularly as President. And many claim he's bisexual.

Oh, really!

Oh yes. So, and of course Hilary. Goodness gracious, what can I say about her exploits? Let's just call it that, leave it at that.

Okay.

Yes, but I think that Canada is actually more advanced than the United States as far as the New World Order is concerned.

This is, yeah, this is something I want to ask you about. Because in a lot of these, in a lot of your newsletters there's not a whole lot about Canada. Which is understandable -- you're in Texas, you're in the States, that's where your concern lies. But for those of us in Canada, I mean, we're quite, obviously, concerned about where this all might end up for us.

Well, you know, I visited Winnipeg. I guess it's been three years ago. I spoke at a church called Calvary church, a historic church in downtown Winnipeg. And I found it very interesting. They had a radio talk show host there. I think his name was Peter Warren. He was a very popular talk show host there, and Mr. Warren invited me to come on. And people told me that the man hates God, hates Christianity, and is a very vulgar man. Which of course greatly encouraged me to go on his program, you know? Because I don't want to shy away from people that don't like me. I mean, I hope I can win them over to liking me, Mayor Sullivan, or at least, you know, their audience if not them. So I agree to go with him, though I knew he would attack me severely.

First thing that he did, his first caller -- you know, it was one of these set-up deals. Which I understand, you know. Again, I'm not upset about it, it happens so often to me on liberal or those kind of programs. But Mr. Warren there in Winnipeg -- first caller was a witch. She identified herself as a witch, and a member of a local witches craft group, and she said some very horrible things about me.

Her contention was that I was in violation of Canada's hate crime act. Because I had spoken out about witchcraft and Freemasonry. I had exposed the Masonic Lodge and their evil works and their rituals and so forth, and witches, and said they were of the devil. And she said she had gone down to the Winnipeg police and filed a formal complaint against me. And Peter Warren joined her warmly and said, "Well, congratulations, I agree. This is a horrible man."

And I had a good time, you know, on the program. It was splendid. Now, it was interesting. The very next day, my wife and I were driving around Winnipeg, which is a very pretty city. And you know, I love Canada. That's one of the things. I love greenery. That's why I'm attracted to Canada. Just a beautiful place. And the people there are so friendly. Except maybe the witches, and some of the others [laughter] that hate me. But in any case, there I was. I was going sort of slow, you know, I was just trying

[This is where I had to turn over the tape. You're smart, you'll pick up the thread.]

thought in my mind was, I guess, I'd run afoul of, of Canada's hate crime act. And anyway, the policeman got out and he said, "Sir, I saw you had a rental car from the United States, and it appears you're lost or something. Can I be of assistance?" And he was the nicest guy. I said, "Yes, I can't find my hotel!" I wanted to get to my hotel then, I was lost, just looking around, I figured I'd run into it. He said, "Sure, I'll take you there." And he took me right to my hotel. Very nice man. So that was my police experience, you know, very pleasant.

But the thing is, Mayor Sullivan, is that, do I hate witches? Uh, yeah, I hate their works. Of course I do, I despise their works. And, and I'll be glad to preach to witches. Now, to hate is to want to destroy someone. The Bible says that Jesus, he -- this is right from the Bible -- Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil. But the Bible says -- I don't mean to preach to you, please forgive me, you didn't call for that -- but the Bible does say that God wishes that no one perish, okay? See, there's two statements: he came to destroy the works of the Devil, but God wishes no one perish. But he wishes, he wants all men -- and women -- to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

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[> [> [> David Duke Smells Like Teen SPirit Part II -- Mark Geragos, 11:27:13 05/29/06 Mon

So to me, yes, I hate their evil works, I do. And when a witch renounces that and comes to the truth, it comes to themself, then yes, I rejoice in that, I'm glad for it. And so in that sense, Masons -- even today, I must tell you some of my very best friends are Masons.

Really.

Sure. And I preach to them all the time. And you know, they barely tolerate me. But we have other interests. I try to reach them for Christ.

In any case, but my point is -- goodness, if you hate a person you want to destroy them personally. If you love a person, or at least have respect for a person, then you don't want to observe them do harm to themselves and to others. That's the real difference, I think, with Christians and maybe even some of other religions, other religions that have compassionate values as well.

So, in any case, that was my experience there in Winnipeg. The police never bothered me. I spoke three or four times at the conference. It was attended by about a thousand people, probably -- I don't want to over- exaggerate -- maybe it was eight hundred, you know, I don't know, eight hundred to a thousand, each of the sessions. And probably, you know, even on the radio program, Peter Warren asked me if I had any final thoughts.

I said, "Yes! You know, it's been a pleasure being with you, and I want to invite people to come hear me speak, and they can judge for themselves." That's what I always say: people can judge for themselves. I don't cram anything down anybody's throats. So they judge for themselves. And so, in any case, I know Peter Warren, several people have written me since then, he's still mad at me for being on his program. He still mentions me up there sometimes. So that's sort of what has happened to me in that respect.

Now here's the point on this. I believe in the liberty and freedom given to us by our nation's founders. Now I know that y'all have a different experience. But nevertheless, there is the fiction, the myth in Canada of freedom and liberty.

Now there's one group that I think are, they're evil in their works. And that's neo-Nazis. You have a group like that, I think Zundel is in your area. And there are these commission hearings about that. I'm totally opposed to Zundel and this Holocaust revisionism. Now, here comes the problem: does not Zundel have a right -- in fact, let me say this. Did not those witches have a right to call Warren's program? I think so. I don't observe any problem with that. And if I can't take the heat as a Christian, then I'll get out of the kitchen, as Harry Truman said. I think that witches have every right in this life under Canada's laws that should be, that should exist, to say their piece. They can get on that radio program and blast me all over the place, call me names, I don't care. Oh, well, I lie. It may hurt my feelings. But you know, that's life. So I'm a big boy.

Now, I think Zundel has every right to do that. And, and I want to add, I think that Jewish organizations and just good Christian folks of all stripes have every right to say, "Zundel, you are a nut." Hitler was a maniac, and I don't care if it was one hundred thousand or six million Jews-- You know, let's face it: there was a holocaust. We can quibble about numbers, but I'm not going to quibble about numbers. If he killed fifty people he was a monster.

The essential facts remain the same.

Yeah, but in Canada -- goodness gracious! I have had books of mine returned from Canada. I have had-- Many publishers in America -- I can name you a number of authors of books -- I'm not talking about neo-Nazi books. I'm talking about books that expose the New World Order and the elite, written by conservatives and liberals that have been rejected by your, even after NAFTA, by your postal authorities, and labelled as hate materials. I find that interesting.

So if I write a book on the Masonic Lodge, right? I don't say, go out and burn Masonic lodges. I think that would be terribly evil. But I say what goes on behind those closed door is Luciferian. Absolutely. Are the Masons themselves Luciferians? No, I think most of them are just ignorant good ol' boys, we call it in Texas. And they don't know. They don't know any better. You know, if they're a Shriner for example, I mean, they bow down before an alter and make a oath, a blood oath to Allah and Mohammed. Then next Sunday they go to church as a Christian. A little weird. They say, "I didn't really mean it, it was just part of an act. It's sort of like a, you know, some kind of a, you know, play game." I wonder what Jesus thinks about that.

In any case, I expose these things. I expose them as they should be, as I have a right to do. Now the Masons can come back and say, "Texe Marrs is a bad boy. He writes these things." And if I write anything that's inaccurate, they should say so. But they won't give specifics, because they claim everything they've got is secret, they don't want to reveal anything. So they just sort of make personal, ad hominem attacks on me. "He's a liar! What he said is untrue!"

But then they won't go into specifics. And the reason they won't is because I always quote Masonic sources. I don't go to Christian sources, because then people would say, "How does that person know?" I, the only Christian sources I go to are Christians who used to be Masons, left the Masonic Lodge, and now they're willing to tell all.

And this still gets you into trouble with the postal authorities?

Oh yeah! Now why is that? Why are the postal authorities protecting Masons, and why do they protect these groups, like the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission? Why do they protect these things? I think that's very interesting. Is that hate crimes to do that? I mean, the Trilateral Commission building -- excuse me, the Council on Foreign Relations building, I have the address, I have a picture of the building itself, I give the address in my book, one of my books. I don't tell people to go down and bomb it. Why? Because those people have every right to go in there.

I even think that the elite have a right, as long as they don't break the law, if they can find some way to get power, control and money without breaking the law, they have every right. But they are breaking the laws. And I have a right to expose them. And I keep my books out.

And listen to me very carefully, and I want you to understand: I'm not advocating Mr. Zundel and his works. I think he has every right to write what he does. I remember a professor there, and I forget his name, wrote some book -- Driscoll, I think his name was. He sent me his book, his books, and I wouldn't promote him because I didn't agree with him, what he said in there. I didn't observe them as Christian-oriented. And then I understand later that he was reprimanded, I don't know if he lost his university job or what, but the hate crime squad -- you know, the nanny squad -- got after him.

I think the professor -- I rejected his books. I had a right to. You may have a right to. You have a right in The Loop magazine to say the worst things about Driscoll if they're true, and if it's not libel, right, and defamatory, because that's bad. But you can say, "His book is cockeyed. I don't agree with it. It's nonsense." And you can, say, give specifics. And you can say, "I don't agree with what he's saying, and if you go along with him it can be harmful to society." You can do anything you want. Or I should say, you should be able to.

As it stands now, yes, you can criticize Zundel and Driscoll. But let Driscoll and Zundel say something about somebody, organizations that liberals don't like, and suddenly, or you know, [garbled], suddenly they want to put them in prison, they want to muzzle them. I don't think so.

Here in America we have KKK guys. Every once in a while they will -- You know there's only seven or eight of them, probably -- they will want to go down my city here and demonstrate. I think, give them the old banner and let them go. And I also believe that people should be able to get on the sidewalk and laugh and heckle them. Okay, does that make any sense?

It does, it does.

Yeah, so, a lot of people think I just want to shut folks up. No, I don't want to do that. But I do want the free exercise of religion in our constitution, free speech, I really don't know what Canada's equivalent, but I know Canada has a history of being free. And what we observe now is under your hate crime act, one of the things, the way it's described to me, in your provinces, I'm not sure it's national, it states that if you write or say anything that might bring discredit or ridicule or scorn to a specified group, that's a hate crime. [garbled]

Well, let me just tell you right away: I believe that all those people that refuse Jesus Christ, believe in him, will go to Hell. I do. I really do. That includes Buddhist, you know, Hindus, etcetera. I should have the right to say that.

So you feel that perhaps Canada, in some ways, is a testing ground, or is pointing the way, that the elite, this elite clique would like to take things, that we're perhaps--

Absolutely.

Five or ten years ahead--

I think Canada-- It's interesting. You see, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- you have a different system than us. And one, in one way, you do not really have the protections we have. Because of our constitution, our Bill of Rights, and the court system here, even though they keep packing the courts over and over and over again with judges that will re-interpret the constitution, there is still-- so far, I mean, I'm talking to you, right?

But I must say that I've had visits, or calls by the FBI. Why? Why should the FBI call me? If this is a free country. You see, so even, there's a, let's just call it an intimidation there. Now they didn't say, "We're going to arrest you." They just said, "Tell us about your ministry. What are you doing there? What do you think about the Militias? What about this? What about that?" And I'm thinking, man, there's murders, there's crime, there's drugs, everything going on -- they want to talk to me? You know? [laughter] What for?

Flattering in a weird sort of way.

And I guess there's the whole thing: why waste time on Zundel? In fact, if you didn't give him any publicity, the guy would just vapourize and go away. That's my opinion. Because nobody really believes in that junk, except a few crazies.

But Canada makes a point of it. I think right now, the majority of Canadians say, "It doesn't affect me. I'm not interested in exposing the Masonic Lodge, or the Illuminati, or the elite. It doesn't affect me." But You see, this is what in every society eventually had a breakdown of society and lost their freedoms, that's what all the people say. In Russia and Germany, etcetera.

At first the people say, "It doesn't affect me, so I don't want to sacrifice, or I don't want to do what's necessary to correct this injustice." But believe me, Canadian's will find out the heat will get very, very big in Canada. And I think it will happen, probably the real hard times will come the same times they come to the United States. But there's going to be inevitable over the next few years, escalation of the taking away of the rights of the people of Canada.

How soon do you think that's coming?

I believe that there very well could be a contrived financial chaos very soon. It may be that what has happened in Asia in the markets will cause a domino effect.

That's interesting that you mention that, because in Canada, or in Vancouver rather, just a couple weeks ago we had the APEC conference, the Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation conference, that occurred just at the same time that a lot of that was going on.

Yeah, you know the Prime Minister of Malaysia made a speech that the New World Order boys hated. In fact, he spoke -- it may have been at APEC, I'm not sure -- I have a full, the full address. But he blamed the money speculators for the fall, the currency speculator George Soros and others, for the fall of Asia.

I remember that speech.

He said, "The thing that they want to do is keep us Asians down." It appears as if we were going to attain the economic status of the Europe and North America. This could not be allowed. And therefore, the super-rich did this on purpose, and drove us into the ground." And I'm paraphrasing, but that's what he said. And James Wolfenson, the International Monetary, excuse me, of the World Bank, you know, sat there, and they said a scowl was across his face. And Kim Dessus, of the France, of the, you know, the IMF, the same way, they hated this guy saying that.

But it's true. But I believe, You see, labour is so cheap over there. And they've got to keep it cheap. They can't allow Thailand and Malaysia and Indonesia to rise in their levels of income. Why, then they couldn't pay twenty-five cents an hour to slave workers. So they drove those countries down. And some people say that they're going to do, that if it works over there, then they'll do it in Canada and the United States next. Because they don't really want to pay fourteen, fifteen dollars an hour to a Canadian auto worker, do they, if they can get it cheaper.

Right now, they, there's a certain amount, of course, the plants and the factories being sent overseas. Now that has happened too, but there's only so much of that that you can do. And so, I really think that they're probably going to equalize things around the world. So probably we're next.

Okay. Um, something else I wanted to ask: a lot of your opinions, at least politically, seem to correlate with things that people on the left of the spectrum, we'll call it, would say. Especially the concerns about international movement of finances, and the keeping of a cheap labour pool in Asia, things like this. Now, you said earlier that when it comes to dealing with the elite there's no such thing as left or right, it takes a concerted effort to battle them. But how do you feel about, about sharing these political views, or perhaps working, if not directly in tandem, at least with a certain shared spirit with people who don't share your religious views?

I really do. I am amazed at the number-- I go in, I go in New Age bookstores and liberal bookstores and find my books. I think a certain number of people, and I get some internet stuff, you know, the people are sending out on different channels, and I'll get the typical liberal letter will say something like, "You've got to read Texe Marrs' newest book, Project L.U.C.I.D. Now, there is a certain amount in the book that you'll just want to brush off. This guy is a religious fanatic. However, his documentation exposing Big Brother and secret societies and the New World Order is fantastic. So you know, try to stomach what he says about Jesus and all that, and you know, take that with a grain of salt, and you know, take in the other."

So you know, that's sort of their attitude. But you know, that gives me an opportunity to say, "Well, you know, those people will be reading my books, and we'll observe what God does." Because, you know, I don't have any-- I mean, I'm not responsible for their salvation anyway. God is, and it's up to them. So I just do what I do and let it work.

There's also many, many magazines that are very New Age, liberal area type magazines, and they have done very favourable reviews of my books. This has only happened, I would say, the last three or four years it's gathered steam. I think, you know, remember: back in the sixties and the seventies, particularly, the sixties particularly, the left wing warned about the global elite of the rich. They warned about the monied element. They warned about the use of government intelligence agencies and the police state.

Now these people are older. They're in their forties and fifties. And some of them were sort of lulled to sleep and became part of the new paradigm. You know, they were sort of seduced by the Clintons and the Gores who seem to talk the sixties language to them. They said, "Oh, isn't this wonderful? Now, one of our own is in office."

But suddenly to their horror, they found out that the FBI budget has gone up tremendously. The CIA has not been dismantled. And the Cold War is over, but suddenly satellites, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars are going to satellite surveillance. What's going on? Why, why, why is this going? And so there is now a new, Mayor Sullivan, a new evaluation. And they're coming to their senses in droves.

Now, I will admit, they-- Mayor Sullivan, get their books, they'll talk, I've seen these New Agers, they have their books warning about the New World Order. They'll add a little stuff in about karma and reincarnation and this silliness [laughter]. But still there is a recognition that they have. You know when I mentioned the unwashed masses of the environmental movement? I wasn't trying to be critical. And let me tell you why.

Let me give you some skeletons in my closet. I led a campaign fifteen years ago here in Austin, Texas, to save trees! I fought developers who wanted to cut huge swaths of trees. Right? And I still want to keep things like that. But, but I suddenly realized who is behind, I found out who was behind the environmental movement. And their goals are not like the average good-hearted environmentalist. These people are using the environmental movement.

See, they say, "We've got to have a world environmental authority. This problem of global warming and everything goes across national borders. And this world environmental authority has to have powers. So we have to have a world court. And of course since the laws don't work so good, we've got to have a global authority. We've got to empower the United Nations, maybe we've got to have many, many more treaties. We've got to bind down the people. We've got-- So suddenly-- And another thing, too, we can't let private property owners control their property. Why--"

You know, I don't know what your laws are there, but let -- Can I give you an example? My ministry bought a five-acre tract of land. Five acres. It's on a five-lane highway. There's subdivisions, there's office buildings close to what the first one would have

[break in recording]

land-locked by the subdivisions, houses and highways on all four sides. We wanted to build a new ministry building. Five acres, we were probably going to only use one acre and leave the rest natural and pretty. As I said, it's in a metropolitan area. It's on the outskirts of the city here, but it's metropolitan. Certainly not out in some forest. In the city of Austin, it's in the city limits.

Well, the city said, "Great!" The county said, "Great!" The state of Texas said, "No problem!" But! The U.S. Fish and Wildlife service said, "No, no. No, no, no. We have to protect the golden-cheeked warbler." I said, "There's no such bird, there's not even any bird nest on this property. Certainly not on the one acre or so that we want to build on." They said, "But you don't understand. Now we have the Endangered Species Act. And we have found that this bird is in this area of Texas. It's in an area about three hundred square miles. And you know, it could possibly fly and land on your property, and land in a tree. Therefore, we cannot allow you to use your property, because this bird may land there. It is habitat. Protected habitat."

I said, "But there's no nest. And no one in this area has ever seen this bird." They said, "Well, that's the point: it's so endangered. It's very rare. But, you know, I'm sorry, you can never, ever, ever for the rest of human history use your property." I said, "Well, then I don't have to pay property taxes." They said, "Oh, yes you do. Of course! You own it." I said, "Well, can I cut down a tree?" "Not anything." "Can I mow it?" "No, you can't mow it either. You must leave it in its natural state." I said, "But there's cars. You stand on the top of this lot and the traffic is horrible! In fact, we were thinking, you know, how we were going to soundproof the walls." They said, "Yes, we know that. But still, it's in our quadrant of territory here, even though it's a metro area."

And they told me-- And I said, "Well, now, the U.S. constitution says, in the fifth amendment, that private property may not be taken from a citizen without due process of law and then only with just compensation paid." You know, if they wanted to take your property, Mayor Sullivan, up there in Canada, and build a library, would they have to pay you?

I should think so, yeah.

Okay. So I said, "So you want my property to protect this bird, because it's for the public good." They said, "That's right." They said, "We don't want your property. We're going to let you keep it." And there is the catch-22. They said, "We're not taking your property. It's still yours, Mr. Marrs, you and your ministry's. But you can never use it! Ever! For all of human history." Or, of course, until the great American empire falls.

And I said, "But this violates the constitution." And they said, "Oh no, the constitution says we can't take your property. We're not taking it. We're letting you keep it. And you're going to be allowed to keep it and protect this bird for the rest of your life." Well, you know, we went to try to sell that property. And nobody wanted to buy it. Who would want to buy it? You can't even build a nature trail on it.

So, this is, these are new laws in America. This was unheralded. Environmentalists loved it. They eat it up. And now there are plans called, there's a wildlands project. Ultimately they want eighty percent of America to be wildlands -- uninhabitable -- to protect the species. But what if there are farms and roads and towns and villages? They must be grazed over and left. And did you know that in Chicago outside the city, there's a huge area of forest? And they estimate there's seventy thousand trees there.

I didn't know that.

It's just a nice area. But the environmentalists now have all gotten together, environmental organizations -- they're demanding those seventy thousand trees be cut down. They say that the western, the middle western part of the United States used to be plains and prairie grass. And they want, and, but because people planted trees in metropolitan Chicago, seeds drifted in the wind and this forest, they say, is probably less that a hundred and fifty years old. And therefore it's an artificial forest. [laughter] And they want all the trees cut down and grazed so that the prairie grass can grow again like it used to be. Now I don't know, Mayor Sullivan, do you call that environmentalism? They want to cut down seventy thousand trees.

They can't seem to make up their mind.

But actually, I did on my radio program, I did agree with them that it should be returned to its native state which was glaciers. Ice. Which means they must all leave the United States at once. And somehow we must allow America and Canada to return to the Ice Age. Isn't that the way it all was?

I can't imagine that getting a warm reception from the environmentalists.

No, no, it really didn't. And by the way, the newest thing here in America -- I don't know about Canada -- is to blow up all the dams. They want all the dams to go. And they've actually been successful in their first one, and now they've targeted all the dams. Once the water has run free and everything, and laid [?] all the land and everything, it all returns to its native state. Oh, how about all the hundreds of thousands of people who will lose their homes? That's just too darn bad, isn't it?

And of course, the-- Here again, we get to some very strange things-- is in the interests of certain elites to have it so, I might add. For example, like Canada. Canada and Alaska must have huge stores of oil. But you know, environmentalists don't want you to go up there and get that oil. And do you really think that Exxon, the Rockefellers, Exxon, do you really think that they want to get that oil? No! If they went up there and got that oil, the price of gasoline may drop to fifteen cents. They're more than willing for the environmentalists to win out.

Hmm.

So this is what's going on around the world, as more and more farmland is taken up here in the United States, and the small farmers put out of business, the huge conglomerates, agri-business, owned by the elite, will control all of the food supplies. So they're more than willing for all the dams to break, the water to flow, farmers to be put out of business, and that's why, you know, they had huge flooding in America last year. None of those dykes were rebuilt. The Clinton administration refused to rebuild any dykes.

Now we have El Nino. They're saying that in January, February and March, especially March, there will be tremendous flooding. And all of those people will be, it will all happen all over again and even worse. The environmentalists don't want the dykes to be built. They say the farms should have never been there. They want it to be natural like it used to be, without the dykes and the dams. And the Clinton administration, being environmentally crazy -- and, I might add, controlled by the elite -- want it to be so. The price of food will skyrocket, the agribusiness concerns will profit, and they will be very, very happy.

All of this in order to bring about a global depopulation?

Well, the global depopulation will make it easier for the elite to control us. I believe we observe this in Africa. I call it the killing of Africa. What happened in Rwanda and Burundi? One million people slaughtered. I want you to imagine the Presidents of Rwanda and Burundi were invited to a conference. They came back as friends, flying back in the same aircraft. Nobody knows what happened, but the aircraft exploded in midair. Some people believe it was a missile. Both the presidents were killed.

And then suddenly, many people say the United Nations workers instigated massacres, setting tribes against tribes. And many, many people believe, of course, the World Health Organization began the AIDS epidemic, and that there is experimentation with Ebola and others, always in Africa.

And I call it the killing of Africa. You know, I call it -- I believe what's going to happen is the recolonization of Africa. It will be more smooth this time. This time they will use the Mandelas. You know, before they had their white people in office. Now they will have their black slaves in office. The Mandelas kiss the boots of the Rockefellers and Rothschilds. When Rothschild says, "Jump," Mandela says, "How high, Bwana?" And that's the way it is, Mayor Sullivan, in Africa.

People said when, when Mandela goes into power, the Rothschilds and the De Beers diamond mines and gold mines will be taken over by the government and nationalized. I knew better than that. I told everyone, that's stupid. I had people that said gold will go to five thousand dollars an ounce because South Africa's gold mines will be closed when Mandela takes office. I said that's stupid.

Mandela is owned by these people. And he's a communist and he's owned by these people, and they'll, he'll do whatever they say in the end. In the end he does whatever they say. And he hasn't touched their diamond mines or gold mines. And he won't.

So, so we have this situation worldwide -- I know in Canada there, your huge hydro waterworks is controlled by Maurice Strong, who is the, was the head of the environmental program of the United Nations. He now is in charge of Kofi Anan, the UN Secretary-General's United Nations reform program. So Maurice Strong is a Canadian and one of the elite, although I do believe he is just a small man. But, but he's very powerful in the UN, in some of these bureaucracies, but his money was given to him by the elite. But they're -- Why are they interested in water? The water companies there in Canada? Why are they being controlled?

Presumably to, to just have one more method of control of the population.

Absolutely.

Water and food.

[garbled] I'm convinced of that. And they do. They really do. At the same time [garbled] Canadian, has control of water rights for most of the state of Colorado. And right now, there are court suits going on in Colorado, the little people taking Maurice Strong to court, claiming that he has plans to siphon off water, you know, and dry up thousands and thousands of acres owned by other people. He owns, because he owns certain water rights, of aqueducts, of spring systems under the ground, because he owns tremendous numbers of acreage of property in the Baca Grande region of Colorado.

How did he get that? How did he get the hydro works there in Canada? How did he become the United Nations environmental program director? How did he become the founder and organiser of the United Nations, the Earth Summit down in Rio de Janeiro in 92 or so? These are all questions that I think can be answered if you understand the goals of the elite.

To control the earth they need to cause people to believe in a grand program of globalism. And the environmental -- I think that is what they latched on to today, the environmental movement. And so you can quote Texe Marrs, an original environmentalist, who was a tree-saver in Austin, Texas.

But I got, I got born again off that. Because I began to realize, and I did not want to be con-- to help these men, and especially taking away private property. And, and you know, I want to mention to you, no one seems to feel sorry for a big lumber company when the government says you can't cut down trees, you know, in this huge area. Aw, who cares?

But what people don't know here in America, and the press won't report it, is little people -- I can tell you of a man in Galveston, Texas, who retired at the age of 70, he and his wife? And the, and the had saved all their money on a little lot, little postage stamp lot really, and they were told they could never build on their lot. Because it was wetlands. Didn't matter that it was miles from the beach. [laughter] And we're talking about

[Dang! What might he have said? What could it be? Damn the temporal limitations of cassette tapes!]

to bring it back to its natural state.

Yeah, this man said, "I came, I emigrated to the United States from Hungary, where I was under domination. I will not let the government take away my right, my freedom." My wife -- he was a factory worker, saved all our lives. He, he had bought the lot, put a little house there, small, modest house for some forty thousand dollars. Well, that house is no longer there any more, Mayor Sullivan, because that man was arrested and he was tried as an eco- criminal. And he was convicted. And then the bulldozers came and took the house down. And that man was convicted and given a prison sentence.

So, this is happening in America. No one will speak for these people. No one cares. And I ask the people that read the loop: do you care?

So what can we do? I mean, not just about smaller issues like that, although I don't wish to trivialize--

He's a little man.

--this man's prison sentence. But in a larger sense, with this global elite and their emerging plan to take control of us.

Well You see, I believe many, many good people are on the side of environmentalism. But they don't realize they're being used. Many people say the United Nations is a very good thing. We want world peace. They don't realize they're being used.

And so, you know, I've been born again in all of these areas when I understood the agenda. I believe what we can do is to educate yuourself. And, and believe me, the founders probably of Canada, I know of the United States, tried to establish a system which would tie the politicians in knots. And would limit the power of money. For example, in the United States we did not have a national bank. The elite wanted one. It was disapproved by the people. The elite did not want to put the rights of the people in the constitution. And that's why we have our Bill of Rights. And note, Mayor Sullivan, those Bill of Rights were not part of the original constitution. They're the first ten amendments. Why wasn't it in the original constitution? The elite didn't want it.

But the little people rose up. They educated themselves. I believe of the seventeenth, of the late seventeen hundreds were much more educated and public-minded than the people of Canada and the United States today. And so today we really are on some kind of a mind drug. I think it's the media, it's television, it's the radio, it's the magazines. There has sprung up hope, a system of alternative news, throughout Canada and the United States. And this system -- the Internet is part of it. But shortwave radio is another thing. And then there's the thousands of the small newsletters and magazines.

And I, I make an appeal to the liberals -- yes, I'm making an appeal to the left. Do not trust Mr. Chretien, do not trust Mr. Clinton, because they say, "We're left." Don't believe these jerks. They are evil men. They're ungodly men. And they do not, they do not believe in the average Canadian and his or her rights. Do not believe in these people. Do not believe in the government. So I, I appeal to people to educate yourself. You know, imagine: if I say there is a conspiracy in the world, Mayor Sullivan, what harm does that do?

Probably not much.

Not much. It causes some people to call me crazy and zany and kook. Okay. Now, if that's all it should, the very most, I am just sort of an eccentric kook, okay? To many people. Why then, is such horrible emotion, hatred and venom spewed out at the so- called conspiratorial-minded people? They hate us. Right now they accuse us of hate crimes. They accuse us of the most vile things. How can what I put in print, unless if there's a call to action to harm people, how can it hurt anybody? If I say Chretien is controlled by super-rich elite, what is the harm of that, especially if I document it? Why would Canada call that a hate crime?

I ask the people of Canada: educate yourself. Why did Chretien suddenly change his mind about the WTO and NAFTA and so forth? Who twisted his arm? Why is he so dead-set on going along with the World Trade Organization and globalism? Who benefits? Always ask who benefits. That's the key. But I really, you know, I'm not one, I must say -- there's a lot of people in America right now, I think it's growing, you know, people are ready to fight these people with arms if necessary. At least from a defensive standpoint. Well, I -- there may be a place for that somewhere, but I'm not, I haven't been called to do that. I've only been called to educate.

People must, they must educate. I go back to the Bible. It says without knowledge, God's people perish. And I would, I think that's what Jefferson and Madison, all the others said. Same thing. To educate the people. But I call on the people of Canada to, to educate themselves, to know. You know, Peter Warren can say, "Texe Marrs is a kook." Texe Marrs responds, "Don't listen to the Peter Warrens on radio. Get my book. And read it." You say, "Well, you're just trying to make money." Go to your library. Ask your library to order a copy so that ten thousand people can read it. I mean, one book in your library, how much does Texe Marrs make? Fifty cents on a royalty? Is it going to make me rich to have it in the Vancouver Public Library?

Probably --

You know what I'm saying?

Probably not.

Yeah, I -- [laughter] That's not my purpose. But read my book and then say if Peter Warren -- is he wrong or is Texe Marrs? My books are documented. You know the criticisms I get, Mayor Sullivan?

What's that?

They're people who have never read my books! They listen to the media, who say if you believe in a conspiracy you're a kook. And so they never read for themselves. They're dumbed down. And they don't read, they don't understand. They don't know. And I want to say one final thing: Once people know and discover this for themselves, whether they're left-wing or right-wing, it changes them.

Everything follows after that.

Everything follows. Sir Winston Churchill once said, he said at one time in a man's life, at one time or another, the truth hits him. That's interesting that, you know, Winston Churchill believed in a global conspiracy, by the way, of the elite, and he wrote about it. But he said, it literally knocks most men down when they come face to face with the truth. But most men get up, brush themselves off and go about their business as if nothing happened. But the men who don't -- it changes them. And then they know. And you know, I don't think that I'm a nut. You know what I think I am?

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[> [> [> [> David Duke Smells Like Teen SPirit Part III -- Kenny from South Park, 11:28:25 05/29/06 Mon

What's that?

To use a New Age term, I'm more aware. Now, I don't accept what I read in the newspapers. I say, "Is this true? I will find out the facts for myself." And if everybody did that in Canada, I think that your freedoms could possibly be preserved.

Okay. Mr. Marrs, I've taken up a great deal of your time. I just have one last question, and it's sort of a little different from what we've been talking about. If I was to come down and visit you in Austin, Texas, where would you take me? What do you like about living in Austin and what would you show me? The ministry, obviously, but what else is there that you would recommend in Austin, Texas to a visitor?

I would take you and just show you the beautiful hill country here.

Really?

Yeah. It is so, it is so -- it's a lot like Vancouver. When I drove into Vancouver, it was so beautiful. And I remember going out at night and driving back and I looked down and I could observe the city, if I can remember, all the lights, and everything there--

Yes.

Is that right?

Yeah. I've done that a couple times myself and it is gorgeous.

It is gorgeous. And, but it's very hilly here, beautiful, huge oak trees. It's just, it's just absolutely beautiful. And there's lakes all over the place, water. Green and clean, by the way. [laughter] And I don't mind being restricted, as long as you don't take a man's land from him. I don't want garbage to be thrown into those lakes, they're too beautiful. So, yeah, that's what I would do. I would show you the beautiful nature of Austin, Texas. It is absolutely gorgeous.

And we have, you know, our downtown. We have the state capitol building. It's the largest state capitol in the United States. Built by Masons, of course. [laughter] And of, it is, there's a big Masonic, you know, plaque sort of thing, you know. And many of the Canadian things, too, are that way. Buildings, different buildings.

In any case, it's just -- the nature of this place is absolutely beautiful. Most people think that Texas is all prairie and cactus and tumbleweed. But we don't have any of that stuff. Well, we do have cacti. But you'll observe cacti right in an oak tree forest. It's really strange, yeah, beautiful. Anyway that's what I'd show him.

Okay. Well, thank you again for your time. It's been a very, a very fascinating interview, and I've taken up a great deal more time than the half hour that was originally allotted. Now, one thing I wanted to ask. I'll be mentioning the website in the article.

Sure.

But your personal assistant had also asked if we could mention an 800 number that you had, and I was quite willing to do that.

They may not do that. You know, some of these magazines won't let you do that. But I would love for you to do that. You might let people know that again, judge for themselves. They can call that 1-800 number and get our newsletter. And you get our newsletter, Mayor Sullivan?

I do indeed. But I don't have the 800 number right by me.

Okay, I'll give that to you. And I want to mention to you, as you know, we have tapes and books in there. But -- you will attest to this, I'm sure -- I have never called you, no one has ever called you and said, "Buy this," or -- I have never sent a fund-raising thing.

Absolutely.

In all the years we've been here, no one's ever got that. We offer those things. I hope that people will order them, because, you know, we need to keep going. But we're going to send the newsletter anyway, and no one will ever call. I, and what I do is if people don't order anything after about a year or so, I'll put a little letter in there saying, you know, if you don't order anything, we're going to have to cut you. That's about all I do. Because we try to be good stewards. You know, we've given it a year to you, and please send us fifty cents, to keep you going a year, another year.

But in any case, it's absolutely free, we don't have any fundraising, no telemarketing, nobody will call. You don't have to worry about that. Our 1-800 number is 1-800 -- Oh wait, I'm sorry, it won't work in Canada.

Oh, will it not?

No, I, you know, we need to change that. We're destroying our good Canadian friends! You know, I've been thinking about -- I'm glad that came up. That's been in the back of my mind for a long time to get the phone company to change that. But right now, yeah, we don't. Folks can write us at our address.

Okay, yeah, we've got the address, and we'll probably put that in, but we'll certainly put in the website. I think most of the readers of the loop in the last survey had web browsers and computers and whatnot.

They do that. In there they can click and order automatically our newsletter. So, and our newsletter every month is posted there as well. Sometimes, I must admit, we're a couple weeks late, you know. I have to get my guy to go in there and design it, put it on the web, unfortunately. But anyway, it eventually gets into the, and they can access all my, at least eighteen months we've been on, all of those newsletters.

Okay. Well, thank you once again for your time. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Recap

Thus the text of my interview with Texe Marrs on December 17, 1997. Conducted by phone, the interview lasted about an hour and forty-five minutes. The interview turned out pretty well, especially considering my near-complete lack of experience in this area. However, there are a number of things I would do differently if I were to interview Mr. Marrs again.
For one, I would be a little more active in directing the conversation. I was pretty content with sitting back and letting him ramble; he's quite comfortable talking, and I was nervous that I might run out of questions. However, the result was a lot of digressions that, while interesting to me, didn't help the article a lot. The transcript is about thirteen thousand words long, and it took a lot of painful editing to get it down to five hundred -- all the room I had been allotted for publications.

For two, I would call him on his apparent anti-Semitism. I can only describe my failure to do so as a gross oversight.

Lastly, I didn't lay the groundwork for this article very well in my interview questions. I've read a fair amount from both the American right and Christian fundamentalism, and while I'm certainly no expert there is a lot of background that I'm familiar with. Thus, I skipped over a lot of questions that other people might have had, such as, "Why do you think there is a conspiracy to take over the United States?" and, "How do your religious beliefs fit in with your politics?" I think a lot of the conversation was for my interest rather than for the purpose of getting a good introductory or explanatory article. In any case, five hundred words are not nearly enough to do justice to either this strain of political and religious belief or Mr. Marrs, even in a cursory fashion.

Ideally, I think, I would take the conversation I had with Mr. Marrs as, perhaps, a sort of pre-interview for something longer and more formal -- and as a way of obtaining some measure of the experience and skills necessary. There were a lot of questions I didn't ask, such as his stand on King-James Onlyism (though I'm not sure how wide an interest that would have anyway), and the sources of many of his allegations. A much longer article, or perhaps a book -- emerging from a more firmly directed interview -- would be an ideal setting to discuss these things. As well, it would be a great excuse to delve further into a subject that fascinates me, one that Mr. Marrs is right in the center of: the peculiarly American mixture of Christian fundamentalism and right-wing politics.

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[> [> Win-A-Date With Ernst Z�ndel -- Ingrid Rimland (The Zundelsite), 11:34:30 06/03/06 Sat

Ingrid Rimland (The Zundelsite)
Lebensraum

So you think you've got what it takes to fuck Ernst Z�ndel on film? Perfect! Believe it, or not, we�re always looking for more guys to fuck! Since 1996 we�ve fucked well over 200 of you on film. You can pop over to our Scoreboard for the exact number. But if we had our way, we would've been fucked by double or triple that number. And we�ve been fucked by 16 of you in one night...but we would love to take on 30-40 of you in one night, just to see if Ernst could handle it! Why haven't we reached these goals, you ask? We can't find the guys! People often ask Ernst Z�ndel how often we shoot. Our answer, whenever we find the cock to shoot with. Our point is, we need you, and here is where you sign up! We do solo shoots with single guys (usually known as our Win-A-Date contest) as well as group shoots for gangbangs, orgies and our own parties. We also do solo shoots and group shoots with couples and joint shoots with other racists. We also do content-trade type shoots with other webmasters as long as they agree to post links back to our site. If you would like to join the fun, here are the following rules:

Be sure to read everything below this line. If you skipped over that first paragraph, that's OK, but if you do not read the following rules and requirements and you ask Ernst Z�ndel something that is answered on this page, we will delete your application.

First off...If we sent you here from My Space or Xpeeps or you got here through some other means than from our website, you really should go check it out and see the type of stuff we do. You cannot get a good idea of the type of slut the good ol' Z�ndel-Mundel is by looking at our My Space profile.

We prefer (these days, almost require) bareback sex and require guys to have a current HIV test. For solo shoots we can sometimes use condoms, but we prefer not to. With any group shoot or during events where we will be doing multiple shoots, we are unable to use condoms because they make Ernst Z�ndel asshole sore. We do not specifically require AIM testing. Any testing facility is good enough for Ernst Z�ndel. Just make sure you can get a hardcopy of the test to show Ernst Z�ndel at the shoot. HIV testing is easy and relatively cheap (if not free) and easy to locate the clinics, so don't come to Ernst Z�ndel saying you can't get tested. In fact, we�ve will locate some clinics for you, so you have no excuse! And yes, we get tested regularly and will have our test for you to view before the shoot.

We shoot faces. We don't like blurring or blocking faces and we don't like masks or other items to cover identity. On special occasions, like our annual Halloween Orgy, Christmas FuckFest, or during Mardi Gras, we allow guys to wear masks because it's appropriate with the theme. Otherwise, your face will be on camera.

The photos/videos will appear on our website. To make sure this is legal we require that the guys sign a model release and bring along two forms of ID. In cases of gangbangs, we prefer that the guys photocopy their IDs right onto a copy of their HIV test to speed along the process of paperwork!

We pick guys based on their personalities in their emails as well as on their appearance in their photos, specifically their feet. We don't like big fuzzy beards. We prefer guys, who are more clean-cut looking, though long hair, if well maintained, can also be sexy! We do not base guys on how big their dick is. In fact, really huge guys hurt Ernst Z�ndel. So cocks of all sizes and races are welcome to apply. We�re looking for guys around our age. We�re 35 and we prefer guys near that age. We have done younger guys, but only those who are nice in their emails and not cocky. Nothing turns Ernst Z�ndel off worse than a guy who is full of themselves and pushy. We�ve also done older guys, but again, based on great personalities. We are not looking for playgirl quality models, but we are looking for guys who are height/weight proportioned and who will look good fucking Ernst Z�ndel on camera.

We are looking for guys/couples who can either come to our location or are in a location that we are currently scheduled to appear in. If you are in China and do not plan to travel to Toronto, Canada, then please don't apply to be in photos with Ernst Z�ndel! We travel to different locations of the U.S. every year. We post the schedule for these trips on our Calendar and on our Yahoo group. Otherwise, only apply if you are willing to travel to Toronto, Canada for the shoot.

We do not fuck married guys unless their spouse is present.

For gangbang type events this is rather unimportant, but if you're coming into Toronto to do a Win-A-Date with Ernst Z�ndel: Our cameraman and we are both social drinkers. During these dates we tend to hang out a bit before starting the photo/video shoots. We treat it roughly like a normal date. We go out for dinner and then have a few drinks. This is all about fun for Ernst Z�ndel, not business. Over the years we have found that we have very little in common with non-drinkers, and it has made for some odd "dates". So, if you're applying for a win-a-date type shoot, please, either enjoy bar hopping a little before our actual photo shoot, or have a personality strong enough to overcome the awkwardness of being in a bar with drinkers and not drinking!

We have no set-shooting schedule except for our parties. You can find our party schedule on our Calendar page. Otherwise, we shoot as often as we can find the willing cocks! So you let Ernst Z�ndel know when you could be in town to shoot with Ernst Z�ndel.

Do NOT fill this out unless you are serious. The worst is getting dozens of these a day from guys around the globe who have no real intention of ever meeting up with Ernst Z�ndel or following through if they're chosen for an event or a shoot. Ernst loves licking asshole, so if you do not like your salad tossed, don't waste our time!

So, those were the rules. We hope you read them! If you would still like to apply to participate with Ernst Z�ndel on film, just enter the following form and submit it! You must also submit a photo with it. Please make sure it's a good quality photo, clean, clothed, face and body image. Do not send an image of just your dick. Your application will just be deleted.

And now the important part...your photo! Please send Ernst Z�ndel a nice, clean, clothed photo that clearly shows your face and body. We are not interested in your cock size. If all you have are nudes, that is fine too as long as it clearly shows your face, body, and toes. We do not want photos of blocked out faces and we really don't want photos of just a dick. Do not send photos that are so tiny you can't make out anything in the picture, and don't send a group photo unless you are easily seen and you described which one you were in the text area above. To send the image. Please, when you submit the image will be transferred to Ernst Z�ndel. Be patient, depending on the size of your image, it might take a few seconds to send. Do not send anything more than 150K. If it's bigger than that Ingrid Rimland will reject it. We do not post any of these submitted images on our website. The only images of you that would appear on our site are those we'd take if we get together after you signed a model release!

Can you sign a model release and be on your site.
Can you bring a copy of a recent HIV test?
Can you travel to your location in Canada?
Can you read all of the rules above?

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Replies:

[> Xanax -- Colonel Angus, 09:10:30 12/12/05 Mon

Alprazolam is a short-acting benzodiazepine used to treat anxiety disorders. It is sold under several brand names such as Xanax� (United States, Australia, United Kingdom), Xanax XR� (an extended release formulation) (United States), Xanor� (Finland, Philippines, South Africa, Sweden), Alplax� (Argentina), Alviz� (Indonesia), Alprax� (India), Tranax� (India), Restyl� (Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Oman, Qatar, Republic of Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates), Tranquinal� (Ecuador, Peru), Trankimazin� (Spain), Tafil� (Costa Rica, Denmark, El Salvador, Germany, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Venezuela), Tafil AP� (an extended release formulation) (Mexico), Constan� (Japan), and Solanax� (Japan).

Alprazolam has a calming effect, with the most common side effects being drowsiness, clumsiness, and to a lesser extent, fatigue, and headache. It can also have more adverse effects, such as blurred vision, slurred speech or dysarthria, and changes in personality. It may be habit forming and users often develop a tolerance to its initial effects, although its anxiolytic efficacy remains intact. Physical and/or psychological dependence may develop after several weeks of alprazolam treatment. There is now a general consensus among many psychiatrists that alprazolam (a so-called 'high-potency' benzodiazepine) poses a particularly high risk for abuse and dependence. Withdrawal after long-term use should be done slowly over a period of weeks to avoid serious withdrawal symptoms such as agitation, rebound anxiety, muscle cramps and possible seizures. Some patients may benefit from a more gradual dosage reduction and/or discontinuation and substitution with diazepam.

Indications

The main medical indications are as follows:

1. Treatment of panic disorder (with or without agoraphobia). Alprazolam is very effective in preventing panic attacks. However, despite its efficacy, many psychiatrists are reluctant to use alprazolam for this condition because of the possibility of dependence and interdose anxiety due to its short-acting nature. An extended-release formulation of alprazolam known as Xanax XR� was introduced in 2001 and is often preferred.

2. As needed (PRN) therapy of panic attacks, 4 to 6 doses per month are the acceptable limit. If dependence seems to develop and/or the limit is exceeded therapy may be reconsidered and/or stopped.

3. Initial therapy together with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as paroxetine, sertraline, or fluoxetine to alleviate initial SSRI-induced anxiety while waiting for the agent to begin working. Clinical experience has shown, however, that SSRIs may actual provoke panic attacks in otherwise healthy individuals and cause sexual dysfunction. In these cases, a tricyclic antidepressant may be used. Buspirone may also be useful in conjunction with alprazolam in cases of generalized anxiety disorder.

4. Long-term treatment of severe generalized anxiety disorders if other therapies either do not work or are contraindicated. Duration of therapy in this case is often four months or longer. The indication must be cautiously made by a specialized psychiatrist taking into account both the individual suffering, quality of life, loss in social performance and the risk of dependence.

5. The drug may be used by specialists to treat severe cases of Borderline Personality Disorder. Some studies have shown positive results.

Narcotic regulations

In the United States, alprazolam is a prescription drug and is assigned to Schedule IV of the Controlled Substances Act by the Drug Enforcement Administration. Internationally, alprazolam is included under the United Nations Convention on Psychotropic Substances[1].

Mechanism of action

Alprazolam is a triazolobenzodiazepine, that is, a benzodiazepine with a triazolo-ring attached to its structure. Alprazolam binds to the GABAA subtype of the GABA receptor, increasing inhibitory effects of GABA within the central nervous system. The binding site for benzodiazepines is distinct from the binding site for GABA on the GABA receptor.

Unlike other benzodiazepines, alprazolam may also have some antidepressant activity, although clinical evidence of this is lacking.

Pharmacokinetics

Alprazolam is readily absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract. The peak plasma concentration is achieved in 1-2 hours. Most of the drug is bound to plasma protein, mainly albumin. Alprazolam is hydroxylated in the liver to �-hydroxyalprazolam, which is also active. This and other metabolites are later excreted in urine as glucuronides. Some of the alprazolam is also excreted in unchanged form.

Recreational use

Alprazolam, like other benzodiazepines, has the potential for abuse, especially in addiction-prone individuals. It is not manufactured illegally, but is sometimes diverted to the black market. Nasal (by snorting of ground tablets) administration sometimes occurs. The state of relaxation, anxiolysis and disinhibition provided by benzodiazepines is rewarding. It is sometimes used adjunctively with other recreational drugs to relieve the panic or distress of dysphoric reactions to psychedelics such as LSD and also to promote sleep (hypnosis) in the "come-down" period following use of recreational drugs with stimulant or insomniac properties (such as LSD, cocaine, amphetamine, and MDMA). It is also often used in conjuction with marijuana for an even more relaxing effect.

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[> [> B12 -- Colonel Angus, 09:19:05 12/12/05 Mon

The term vitamin B12 (or B12 for short) is used in two different ways. In a broader sense it refers to a group of Co-containing compounds known as cobalamins - cyanocobalamin (an artefact formed as a result of the use of cyanide in the purification procedures), hydroxocobalamin and the two coenzyme forms of B12, methylcobalamin (MeB12) and 5-deoxyadenosylcobalamin (adenosylcobalamin - AdoB12). In a more specific way, the term B12 is used to refer to only one of these forms, cyanocobalamin, which is the principal B12 form used for foods and in nutritional supplements.

Pseudo-B12 refers to B12-like substances which are found in certain organisms, such as Spirulina spp. (blue-green algae, cyanobacteria). However, these substances do not have B12 biological activity for humans.

Structure

B12 is the most chemically complex of all the vitamins. B12's structure is based on a corrin ring, which, although similar to the porphyrin ring found in haem, chlorophyll, and cytochrome, has two of the pyrrole rings directly bonded. The central metal ion is Co (cobalt). Four of the six coordinations are provided by the corrin ring nitrogens, and a fifth by a dimethylbenzimidazole group. The sixth coordination partner varies, being a cyano group (-CN), a hydroxyl group (-OH), a methyl group (-CH��) or a 5'-deoxyadenosyl group (here the C5' atom of the deoxyribose forms the covalent bond with Co), respectively, to yield the four B12 forms mentioned above. The covalent C-Co bond is the only carbon-metal bond known in biology. [1](p.32)

Synthesis

B12 cannot be made by plants or by animals, as the only type of organism that have the enzymes required for the synthesis of B12 are bacteria (eubacteria, archaebacteria).

Functions

Coenzyme B12's reactive C-Co bond participates in two types of enzyme-catalyzed reactions: [2](p.675)

Rearrangements in which a hydrogen atom is directly transferred between two adjacent atoms with concomitant exchange of the second substituent, X, which may be a carbon atom with substituents, an oxygen atom of an alcochol, or an amine.

Methyl (-CH��) group transfers between two molecules.

In humans there are only two coenzyme B12-dependent enzymes:

MUT which uses the AdoB12 form and reaction type 1 to catalyze a carbon skeleton rearrangement (the X group is -COSCoA). MUT's reaction converts MMl-CoA to Su-CoA, an important step in the extraction of energy from proteins and fats (for more see MUT's reaction mechanism)

MTR, a methyl transfer enzyme, which uses the MeB12 and reaction type 2 to catalyzes the conversion of the amino acid Hcy into Met (for more see MTR's reaction mechanism).

History as a treatment for anemia

B12 deficiency is the cause of several forms of anemia. The treatment for this disease was first devised by William Murphy who bled dogs to make them anemic and then fed them various substances to see what (if anything) would make them healthy again. He discovered that ingesting large amounts of liver seemed to cure the disease. George Minot and George Whipple then set about to chemically isolate the curative substance and ultimately were able to isolate vitamin B12 from the liver. For this, all three shared the 1934 Nobel Prize in Medicine.

The chemical structure of the molecule was determined by Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin and her team in 1956, based on crystallographic data.

Deficiency

B12 is mostly absorbed in the terminal ileum. The production of intrinsic factor in the stomach is vital to absorption of this vitamin. Megaloblastic anemia can result from inadequate intake of B12, inadequate production of intrinsic factor (pernicious anemia), disorders of the terminal ileum resulting in malabsorption, or by competition for available B12 (such as fish tapeworms or bacteria present in blind loop syndrome). Neurological signs of B12 deficiency, which can occur without accompanying hematologic abnormalities, include demyelination and irreversible nerve cell death. Symptoms include numbness or tingling of the extremities and an ataxic gait.

The American Psychiatric Association's American Journal of Psychiatry has published studies showing a relationship between depression levels and deficient B12 blood levels in elderly people in 2000 [3] and 2002 [4].

Traditionally, treatment for B12 deficiency was through intramuscular injections of cyanocobalamin. However, it has recently been appreciated that deficiency can be treated with oral B12 supplements when given in sufficient doses. The usual daily intake in the Western diet is 5-7 mcg. However, when given in oral doses ranging from 1000-2000 mcg daily, B12 can be absorbed in a pathway that does not require an intact ileum or intrinsic factor.[5] The Schilling test can determine whether symptoms of B12 deficiency are caused by lack of intrinsic factor, though this is being performed less often due to the lack of availability of reagent for the test.

Sources

Vitamin B12 is naturally found in foods including fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk, and milk products. Fortified breakfast cereals are a particularly valuable source of vitamin B12 for vegetarians. Table 1lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B12.

While vegetarians usually get enough B12 through dairy products or eggs, it is often found lacking in those following vegan diet who do not eat B12 supplements or fortified foods, like fortified cereals, fortified soy-based products or fortified yeast extract. Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of vegans to be inadequate include spirulina (an alga), nori (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria. Several studies of vegans on raw food diets show that raw food offers no special protection against B12 deficiency either. The only known vegetarian source of substantial B12 is the Chinese herb Dang Gui (Angelica sinensis), used for centuries for treating anemia.

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[> [> [> Deuterium Oxide and Mitosis (Heavy Water) -- Colonel Angus, 09:26:07 12/12/05 Mon

Deuterium Oxide and Mitosis

Mitosis is asexual reproduction of cells, or division of the nucleus. One cell replicates its DNA and then through a series of four steps divides into two daughter cells. Mitosis is used by organisms to differentiate, grow, and replace dead cells. It is integral to growth and health of the organism and any agent that hinders or damages this process (like deuterium oxide) should be avoided in general. Cancer, however, occurs when mitosis proceeds so rapidly and constantly that it can produce tumors and other effects adverse to many common bodily functions. An agent that hinders mitosis would then be beneficial in preventing cancerous growth. Deuterium oxide has properties that make it look promising for cancer treatment.

First the intricate process that is mitosis should be examined. Most of the cell's life is spent in the phase known as interphase. In this phase the cell carries out regular metabolic activities, translates proteins, and replicates DNA. Interphase is not a stage of mitosis, even though this is when the DNA is copied. The first stage of mitosis is prophase. In prophase, the nuclear membrane disappears, the DNA coils into replicated chromosomes (sister chromatids) spindle fibers form, and they connect with the sister chromatids at their centers (kinetochores). In the second stage, metaphase, the sister chromatids are brought into alignment at the equator of the cell (called the metaphase plate). The third phase, anaphase, occurs when the sister chromatids are pulled apart by contraction of the spindle fibers, and they move toward the poles of the cell. Telophase, the last phase of mitosis, is basically the reverse of prophase; the chromosomes decoil, the nuclear membranes reform, and the spindle fibers disappear. During telophase cytokinesis occurs, which is division of the cytoplasm. Combining mitosis (nuclear division) and cytokinesis (cytoplasmic division) gives cell division.

Moving from biology to chemistry, mitosis can be examined through the cellular macromolecules. DNA contains hydrogen in the nitrogenous bases and in the deoxyribose sugars. In fact, the DNA macromolecule takes the shape of a double helix because of hydrogen bonds between the nitrogenous bases that are across from each other. When deuterium oxide is introduced into a cell, deuterium atoms gradually replace hydrogen atoms in DNA molecules. The bonds between the deuterium atoms are stronger than the original hydrogen bonds, and this has the effect of the DNA molecules becoming more rigid. The mitotic process is heavily dependent on the hydrogen bonds of DNA, so any alteration of this will adversely affect mitosis. For example, DNA replication requires the double helix to uncoil, and when deuterium is incorporated in DNA, it makes it harder to uncoil because of the increased rigidity. Or, if the DNA does replicate, deuterium oxide can still affect mitosis. When the DNA begins to coil into chromosomes, the deuterium oxide causes the chromosome to become shortened and thickened. The effect is also felt in the cytoplasm, which becomes more rigid due to the increased viscosity of heavy water and again makes cellular division all the more difficult to take place. Very importantly, deuterium oxide is unique among all anti-mitotic agents in that it works on many stages of mitosis, unlike most others which act specifically on only one stage of mitosis.

(250 grams will cost roughly $446.00)

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[> [> [> [> Growth Hormone (GH) -- Colonel Angus, 09:31:48 12/12/05 Mon

Growth hormone (GH) is a protein hormone secreted by the pituitary gland which stimulates growth and cell reproduction. In the past growth hormone was extracted from human pituitary glands and given to deficient children. GH is now produced synthetically and given to both children and adults for a variety of reasons. GH therapy has been a focus of social and ethical controversies for 50 years.

This article describes the history of GH treatment, current uses, risks, and social controversies arising from GH use. Other articles describe GH physiology, diseases of GH excess (acromegaly and pituitary gigantism), deficiency, the recent phenomenon of HGH quackery, and growth hormone for cows.

Terminology and glossary

Growth hormone (GH) is also called somatotropin (British: somatotrophin). The human form of growth hormone is known as human growth hormone, or hGH (similarly ovine growth hormone is abbreviated oGH). GH can refer either to the natural hormone produced by the pituitary (somatotropin), or biosynthetic GH for therapy (somatropin).

HGH is an abbreviation sometimes used for counterfeit or fake "growth hormone" products. See HGH quackery for a fuller discussion of the origins and changing usages of HGH.

Cadaver growth hormone is the unappetizing term for GH extracted from human pituitary glands between 1960 and 1985 for therapy of deficient children. In the U.S., cadaver GH is also referred to as NPA growth hormone (National Pituitary Agency). In 1985 it was associated with the development of Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, and was withdrawn from use.

rhGH refers to recombinant human growth hormone (somatropin). It contains the identical amino acid sequence of human GH and was for a time referred to as "natural sequence" GH. It is the only synthetic GH commercially available for human use today.

Coincidentally, rhGH also refers to rhesus monkey GH, using the accepted naming convention. Rhesus growth hormone was never used by physicians to treat human patients, but rhesus GH was part of the lore of the underground anabolic steroid community in those years and fraudulent versions may have been bought and sold in gyms.

met-GH refers to methionyl-growth hormone. This was the first recombinant GH product marketed (Protropin by Genentech). It had the same amino acid sequence as human GH with an extra methionine at the end of the chain to facilitate the manufacturing process. It was discontinued in the late 1990s.

rBST refers to recombinant bovine somatropin (cow growth hormone), or more properly, recombinant bovine GH (rbGH).

Treatment of GH deficiency in children

Growth hormone deficiency is treated by replacing GH. All GH prescribed in North America, Europe, and most of the rest of the world is a synthetic copy of human GH, manufactured by recombinant DNA technology. As GH is a large protein molecule, it must be injected into subcutaneous tissue or muscle to get it into the blood. Nearly painless insulin syringes make this less trying than is usually anticipated but perceived discomfort is a subjective value.

When a person has had a long-standing deficiency of GH, benefits of treatment are often obvious, and side effects of treatment are rare. When treated with GH, a deficient child will begin to grow faster within months. Parents may notice other benefits such as increased strength, progress in motor development, and reduction of body fat. Side effects of this type of physiologic replacement are quite rare. Known risks and unsettled issues are discussed below, but GH deficient children receiving replacement doses are at the lowest risk for problems and receive the greatest benefit.

Still, costs of treatment in terms of money, effort, and perhaps quality of life, are substantial. Treatment of children usually involves daily injections of growth hormone, usually for as long as the child is growing. Lifelong continuation may be recommended for those most severely deficient as adults. Most pediatric endocrinologists monitor growth and adjust dose every 3-4 months. Assessing the psychological value of treatment is difficult but most children and families are enthusiastic once the physical benefits begin to be seen. However, no one except the stockholders of the pharmaceutical companies is enthusiastic at the cost. Treatment costs vary by country and by size of child, but $US 10,000 to 30,000 a year is common.

Little except the cost of treating severely deficient children is controversial, and most children with severe growth hormone deficiency in the developed world are offered treatment. Most accept. The story is very different for adult deficiency.

Treatment of adult GH deficiency

Research has shown that GH treatment can provide a number of measurable benefits to severely GH-deficient adults, such as enhanced energy and strength, and improved bone density. Muscle mass may increase at the expense of adipose tissue. Blood lipid levels improve, but long term mortality benefit has not yet been demonstrated.

GH for severe adult deficiency is usually prescribed as daily injections at a weekly dose about 25% of children's doses and comparably lower cost. Despite the potential benefits, most adults with GH deficiency are not being treated due to a combination of factors such as unwillingness of young adults to seek medical care, unacceptability of injections, inadequate insurance coverage (in the U.S.), and significantly lower rates of diagnosis and treatment offer by internist endocrinologists.

See growth hormone deficiency for further details of treatment for this specific condition.

Other GH uses and treatment indications

In the last two decades, GH has also been increasingly used for children and adults who are not severely deficient, either to enhance growth or for other reasons.

GH treatment for other types of shortness

Many conditions besides GH deficiency cause poor growth. GH therapy has been shown to improve short-term growth in many conditions, but long-term height gains are usually poorer than those achieved when GH deficiency is the cause of shortness. Higher ("pharmacologic") doses are typically required to achieve efficacy; side effects are uncommon and vary according to the condition being treated.

As of 2004, GH has been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for treatment of five other types of short stature:

Turner syndrome epitomizes the response of non-deficient shortness. At doses 20% higher than those used in GH deficiency, growth accelerates. With several years of treatment the median gain in adult height is about 2-3 inches (5-7.5 cm) on this dose. The gains appear to be dose-dependent.

Chronic renal failure results in many problems, including growth failure. GH treatment for several years both before and after transplantation may prevent further deceleration of growth and may narrow the height deficit, though even with treatment net adult height loss may be about 4 inches (10 cm).

Prader-Willi syndrome represents a unique combination both encouraging and discouraging GH treatment. Many of the children have at least partial deficiency, so that the adipose reduction and muscle strength benefits are amplified. These two benefits are specifically helpful in this syndrome. On the other hand, these children are intellectually and socially limited by their condition such that it is difficult to imagine that 2 or 3 more height inches would make much difference to quality of life. Furthermore, a handful of sudden deaths during treatment of older children has raised questions about safety and an official warning.

Children short because of intrauterine growth retardation are small for gestational age at birth for a variety of reasons. If early catch-up growth does not occur and their heights remain below the third percentile by 2 or 3 years of age, adult height is likely to be similarly low. High dose GH treatment has been shown to accelerate growth, but data on long term benefits and risks is limited.

Idiopathic short stature (ISS) is one of the most controversial indications for GH as pediatric endocrinologists do not agree on its definition, diagnostic criteria, or limits. The term has been applied to children with severe unexplained shortness that will result in an adult height below the 3rd percentile. In the late 1990's, the pharmaceutical manufacturer Eli Lilly and Company sponsored trials of Humatrope (their brand of rhGH) in children with extreme ISS, those at least 2.25 standard deviations below mean (in the lowest 1.2 percent of the population). These boys and girls appeared to be headed toward heights of less than 63" (160 cm) and 59" (150 cm) respectively. They were treated for about 4 years and gained 1.5 to 3 inches (3.8-7.6 cm) in adult height. Controversy has arisen as to whether all of these children were truly "short normal" children, since the average IGF1 was low. Not surprisingly, approval for this extreme degree of shortness led to an increase in the number of parents seeking treatment to make otherwise healthy children a little taller.

A variety of other causes of shortness is occasionally treated with growth hormone off-label.

Chronic high dose glucocorticoid use results in growth failure, diminished bone density, reduced muscle mass and strength, increased fat, skin fragility, and poor healing. Growth hormone reduces many of these complications without interfering with the anti-inflammatory benefits of the steroid. Unfortunately, GH cannot completely prevent or reverse them. GH is currently used for only a small percentage of people with this problem.

Post-transplant growth failure sometimes improves with GH. Many children who suffer from chronic renal, liver, and heart disease grow poorly for years before a transplant is required (or available). While growth may improve after correction of organ function by successful transplantation, the immunosuppressive drugs taken to protect the transplanted organ may continue to interfere with growth. Growth hormone may help offset these effects and is often offered in these circumstances.

X-linked hypophosphatemic rickets is an inherited disorder of phosphorus metabolism that results in growth failure and rickets. GH has been shown to accelerate growth modestly.

Inflammatory bowel disease (ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease) can impair growth before producing obvious bowel symptoms. Trials of GH have shown at least modest acceleration of growth.

Poor growth is a part of Noonan syndrome and many other genetic syndromes. Many short children with various syndromes have been treated with GH. As a broad generalization, GH for several years usually produces faster growth, and perhaps 1-2 inches (2.5-5 cm) of extra adult height.

Small numbers of children with various forms of bone dysplasia (dwarfism in common parlance) have been treated with GH with modest increases in short-term height velocity. No long-term studies have demonstrated increased adult height, and dwarfism due to bone dysplasia remains the prime example of extreme shortness considered not very amenable to GH treatment.

GH treatment for other benefits beyond height

GH has occasionally been used for other purposes than accelerating growth or replacing deficiency. Nearly every hormone available for administration has been given to non-deficient people in hope of obtaining improvement for various conditions for which other treatments are unsatisfactory. With a few exceptions, benefits are modest and side effect risk is higher. Experience with GH has yielded the same results. The following is not an exhaustive list.

Advanced acquired immunodeficiency syndrome is often accompanied by muscle wasting ("AIDS wasting"). GH has been shown to ameliorate it.

GH has been given to promote healing of large burns by reducing the amount of protein breakdown during the early post-injury period.

GH has been used as an adjunct to severe calorie restriction for obesity. GH promotes lipolysis and reduces proteolysis. It was hoped that GH would reduce muscle breakdown without interfering with use and reduction of fat as the body shifted to a near-starvation economy. Results showed benefit, but this has not been widely adopted for a variety of reasons (cost, injections, potential aggravation of insulin resistance, etc).

Fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome are poorly understood and vaguely defined conditions with overlapping features. After demonstration of disorderd GH secretion and higher rates of tissue breakdown in patients with these conditions, a few people tried growth hormone treatment to see if energy or healing could be improved. Disturbances of GH secretion may be secondary phenomena and not causal. Despite anecdotal reports of improvement, no large, controlled trials have demonstrated significant, persistent improvement and GH is not a common or standard treatment for either condition.

GH has been used to slow or reverse some of the debilities of aging based on the following observations: (1) as adults get older, production and levels of GH and IGF1 decline, and (2) many of the effects of aging (diminished muscle strength and bone mass, reduced energy, reduced resilience) also occur with adult growth hormone deficiency and are improved with GH treatment. See HGH quackery for more on GH use to retard aging.

GH has been taken by athletes and muscle builders to increase either strength or bulk. Rumors of surreptitious athletic use date back to the days of cadaver GH. Since GH is a protein hormone, it is not detected by assays that screen for steroids and similar drugs-- the primary laboratory clue would be elevated IGF1 levels. However, despite decades of rumors and presumably some amount of black market or surreptitious use, the magnitudes of both benefits and risks remain unestablished. See HGH quackery for more.

Risks of GH treatment

Known risks of GH are few and rare. Few reasonable parents or physicians would incur a high risk of harm to a child to add a few inches to height. Most of the complications have been reported in children over 10 years of age or in adults. Though rare, the following harmful side effects have been reported during GH treatment often enough to be assumed noncoincidental.

Slipped capital femoral epiphysis (SCFE) causes hip pain due to separation of the head of the femur from the shaft. Incidence in GH-treated children may be about 1 in 1000. SCFE usually requires casting or surgical pinning to reverse.

Pseudotumor cerebri (also known as benign intracranial hypertension) is manifested by severe headache, papilledema, nausea, and visual changes. Incidence is also perhaps 1 in 1000. All cases have been reversed, usually by temporary discontinuation or reduced dose of the GH.

Fluid retention and edema in early months of treatment is rare in children but more common and occasionally more severe in adults. It typically disappears with temporary interruption of treatment.

Pancreatitis has been reported in a few patients receiving GH, but a causal relationship seemed plausible in only a couple.

Joint pains are occasionally experienced by children or adults being treated with GH.

Carpal tunnel syndrome has also occurred in adults being treated with GH, presumably due to a combination of tissue growth and fluid retention causing pressure on the tightly confined nerves and tendons of the wrists.

A small but controlled study of GH given to severely ill adults in an intensive care unit setting for the purpose of increasing strength and reducing the muscle wasting of critical illness showed a higher mortality rate for the patients who received GH. The reason is unknown, but GH is now rarely used in ICU patients without severe deficiency.

The following effects are common, but of questionable harm.

Altered body composition refers to the tendency of GH to build bone and muscle mass and reduce body fat.

GH treatment usually decreases insulin sensitivity. This effect does not seem to cause problems in most people but it is possible to envision a combination of factors which would make this a more significant effect.

When GH is given to children and adults who are not deficient, IGF1 levels may be raised above normal. Though no effects are obvious, prolonged periods of extremely high IGF1 levels occur in acromegaly, and a small amount of evidence suggests that higher IGF1 levels in older adults (not receiving GH) are associated with a slightly higher risk of certain cancers; a causal relationship has not been established.

When GH is given to a child in high doses for many years, it can subtly affect the facial bone structure. It rarely is recognized as a change by patients and parents and even less often causes problems.

The following serious problems have been linked by one or two small reports but a true risk has not been confirmed by larger surveillance studies.

Type 2 diabetes has been reported in a few adolescents treated with GH. It uncertain whether this is a causal association because the incidence of adolescent type 2 diabetes is rising so rapidly in most countries that we no longer have reliable incidence statistics for diabetes in the untreated adolescent population.

Leukemia is the most common childhood cancer, occurring in about 1 in 40,000 children each year. Because leukocytes have GH receptors, leukemia cases have been carefully counted since synthetic GH was introduced. Although a few children with no risk factors treated with GH have developed leukemia, the numbers have been no more than would be expected in a similarly sized group. For a variety of reasons, it has been harder to achieve the same level of reassurance for children who do have a higher leukemia risk. These are primarily children who are became GH deficient as a result of treatment for leukemia or a brain tumor. Available statistics are reassuring, but numbers are not large enough to exclude any amplification of risk.

Several extra cases of colon cancer were found in a study of lifelong health and mortality of a group of middle-aged British adults with severe GH deficiency from childhood. All had been treated as children with cadaver GH. This association has not been confirmed and even if it were, it would need to be established whether the GH treatment in childhood or the untreated GH deficient state in adult life represented the true association.

Finally, in any discussion of side effects, our experience with Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease 20 years after cadaver GH treatment reminds us that side effects of an apparently safe treatment may be unforeseeable and long-delayed.

Ethical issues

Hormone treatment seems an unlikely source of social controversy, but for four decades, growth hormone has been second only to estrogens and progestins (diethylstilbestrol, contraception, abortifacients, and post-menopausal replacement) in its ability to engender challenging ethical issues. The principal controversies of the last two decades arise from the intersection of two factors: high cost and the difficulty of defining a boundary between disease and variation of normal. In other words, if GH were inexpensive, it would be no more controversial than orthodontics. If there were zero potential benefit to all but the most easily defined, severely deficient persons, GH would be one more expensive treatment for a rare disease. But neither condition is true.

Growth hormone is one of the most expensive treatments in all of medicine. The cost of adult GH replacement for deficiency (or for �aging�) is about US$2000 per year, or about US$20,000 per decade. The cost of treatment for a non-deficient child (e.g., with Turner syndrome or idiopathic short stature) is about US$25,000 per year. A typical treatment course of 5 years yielding about 2 inches (5 cm) of extra adult height would cost approximately US$125,000. The highest cost, for treatment from infancy to age 70 of severe, congenital GH deficiency, could exceed US$300,000.

The high cost has been a subject of criticism of the pharmaceutical companies. A high cost was originally justified by the new technology and unusually extensive clinical trials. Orphan drug status in the United States (which blocks competing products for several years) was granted to the first two recombinant products (Genentech's Protropin and Lilly's Humatrope) introduced in the mid-1980s. Continuing production costs have been much lower than the drug price. When orphan drug status expired in the early 1990s it was hoped that introduction of additional brands into the market would result in a lower price. Instead, the 5 major companies offering synthetic GH have competed on other grounds than price. While the dollar price has not been increased to keep up with inflation over 2 decades, it hasn't been reduced as net manufacturing costs have fallen. Despite a similar manufacturing process, pricing of synthetic GH for use in cattle (see Bovine somatotropin), turkeys, and chickens is inexpensive compared to the human product since the price is constrained by market prices for the meat and milk products enhanced by the animal GH.

Assessing the value of treatment to balance against the cost is made difficult by the range of severity of conditions treated and the difficulty of cleanly distinguishing disease from human variability. The most expensive treatment cost cited above for lifetime replacement of severe deficiency purchases for that person a 12"; (30 cm) height difference, enough to prevent shortness severe enough to be a physical handicap, enhanced marriage and employment prospects (compared with those under 56�). It also enhances bone and muscle strength, and perhaps even psychological resilience. It can prevent obesity, and may even prolong employability and life span. These are substantial benefits in return for the high cost, but less than 1 in 5000 children is born with this type of severe deficiency. At the other extreme is a child whose only diagnosable disease is a height in the lowest 2% of the population, who may gain 1 inch from 2 years of treatment. In between these extremes is a continuum of more or less severe shortness, greater or lesser response to treatment, and greater or smaller abnormalities to testing.

Questions and dilemmas arise from the previous facts.

Is GH a wise use of finite health care resources? Is there anything wrong with an insurer or government health program declining to spend US$ 100 000 or more to make an otherwise healthy child a few inches taller?

A physician usually assumes the responsibility of advocating for a patient to get coverage for a treatment. If the family of a normal but slightly short child thinks GH treatment is worth the cost and trouble, does the physician have a duty to support it? If the physician declines, is she being �paternalistic� rather than �respecting the patient�s autonomy�.

If the cost of GH drops, and is given to short children whose parents can afford it, will shortness become a lifelong mark of lower social origins, like crooked teeth?

If we treat a child to protect him from the disadvantages of social heightism, is that like lightening skin or straightening hair to protect from racism?

If two children of the same height might gain the same benefit from treatment, is the reason for the shortness (diagnosis) an ethically relevant consideration? Does the child who tests more abnormally have a better claim to treatment?

Is �idiopathic short stature� a medical condition worthy of treatment if it is defined simply as the shortest 1% of the population? Would it make a difference if many or most of this lowest 1% could be shown to have a defect of IGF1 production or responsiveness? If ISS were defined as the shortest 3%, 5%...?

What is the difference between enhancement and therapy?

Should mentally handicapped children be as eligible for GH treatment as those with more �normal� social prospects? Are parents the best judges of potential benefits?

See Synopsis of symposium on ethical aspects of GH treatment.

History

Perhaps the most famous person who exemplified the appearance of untreated congenital growth hormone deficiency was Charles Sherwood Stratton (1838-1883), who was exhibited by P.T. Barnum as General Tom Thumb, and married Lavinia Warren. Pictures of the couple show the typical adult features of untreated severe growth hormone deficiency. Despite the severe shortness, limbs and trunks are proportional.

Like many other 19th century medical terms which lost precise meaning as they gained wider currency, �midget� as a term for someone with extreme proportional shortness acquired pejorative connotations and is no longer used in medical contexts.

By the middle of the twentieth century endocrinologists understood the clinical features of growth hormone deficiency. GH is a protein hormone, like insulin, which had been purified from pig and cow pancreases for treatment of type 1 diabetes since the 1920's. However pig and cow GH did not work as well in humans, due to greater species-to-species variation of molecular structure (i.e., insulin is considered more "evolutionarily conserved" than GH).

In the late 1950�s Maurice Raben purified enough GH from human pituitary glands to successfully treat a GH-deficient boy. A few endocrinologists began to help parents of severely GH deficient children to make arrangements with local pathologists to collect human pituitary glands after removal at autopsy. Parents would then contract with a biochemist to purify enough growth hormone to treat their child. Few families could manage such a complicated undertaking.

In 1960 the National Pituitary Agency was formed as a branch of the U.S. National Institutes of Health. The purpose of this agency was to supervise the collection of human pituitary glands when autopsies were performed, arrange for large scale extraction and purification of GH, and distribute it to a limited number of pediatric endocrinologists for treating GH-deficient children under research protocols. Canada, U.K., Australia, New Zealand, France, Israel, and other countries establish similar government-sponsored agencies to collect pituitaries, purify GH, and distribute it for treatment of severely GH deficient children.

Supplies of this �cadaver growth hormone� were limited and only the most severely deficient children were treated. From 1963 to 1985 about 7700 children in the U.S. and 27,000 children worldwide were given GH extracted from human pituitary glands to treat severe GH deficiency. Physicians trained in the relatively new specialty of pediatric endocrinology provided most of this care, but in the late 1960�s there were only a hundred of these physicians in a few dozen of the largest university medical centers around the world.

In 1976 physicians became aware that Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease could be transmitted by neurosurgical procedures and cornea transplantation. CJD is a rapidly fatal dementing disease of the brain also known as spongiform encephalopathy, related to �mad cow disease�.

In 1977 the NPA GH extraction and purification procedure was refined and improved.

A shortage of available cadaver GH worsened in the late 1970�s as the autopsy rate in the U.S. declined, while the number of pediatric endocrinologists able to diagnose and treat GH deficiency increased. GH was "rationed." Often treatment would be stopped when a child reached an arbitrary minimal height, such as 5 feet (152 cm). Children who were short for reasons other than severe GH deficiency were told that they would not benefit from treatment. Only those pediatric endocrinologists who remained at university medical centers with departments able to support a research program had access to NPA growth hormone.

In the late 1970�s a Swedish pharmaceutical company, Kabi, contracted with a number of hospitals in Europe to buy pituitary glands for the first commercial GH product, Crescormon. Although an additional source of GH was welcomed, Crescormon was greeted with ambivalence by pediatric endocrinologists in the United States. The first concern was that Kabi would begin to purchase pituitaries in the U.S., which would quickly undermine the NPA, which relied on a donation system like blood transfusion. As the number of autopsies continued to shrink, would pathologists sell pituitaries to a higher bidder? The second offense was Kabi-Pharmacia�s marketing campaign, which was directed at primary care physicians under the slogan, �Now, you determine the need,� implying that the services of a specialist were not needed for growth hormone treatment anymore and that any short child might be a candidate for treatment. Although the Crescormon controversy in the U.S. is long forgotten, Kabi�s pituitary purchase program continued to generate scandal in Europe as recently as 2000.

In 1981, the new American corporation Genentech, after collaboration with Kabi, developed and started trials of synthetic human growth hormone made by a new technology (recombinant DNA) in which human genes were inserted into bacteria so that huge vats of bacteria could produce unlimited amounts of the protein. Because this was new technology, approval was deferred as lengthy safety trials continued over the next 4 years.

In 1985 four young adults in the U.S. who had received NPA growth hormone in the 1960�s developed CJD. The connection was recognized within a few months and use of human pituitary GH rapidly ceased. Between 1985 and 2003, a total of 26 cases of CJD occurred in adults who had received NPA GH before 1977 (out of 7700). Comparable numbers of cases occurred around the world. Fortunately, by 2003 there had been no cases in people who received only GH purified by the improved 1977 methods.

Discontinuation of human cadaver growth hormone led to rapid Food and Drug Administration approval of Genentech�s synthetic methionyl growth hormone, which was introduced in 1985 as Protropin in the United States. Although this previously scarce commodity was suddenly available in �bucketfuls,� the price of treatment (US$ 10,000 to 30,000 per year) was uniquely astronomical at the time. Genentech justified it by the prolonged research and development investment, orphan drug status, and a pioneering post-marketing surveillance registry for tracking safety and effectiveness.

Within a few years, GH treatment had become �big business� in more than one sense. In the United States, Eli Lilly launched a competing natural sequence growth hormone, and in Europe, Pharmacia (formerly Kabi, now Pfizer), Novo, and Serono marketed nearly identical synthetic human growth hormone products and competed with dozens of different marketing strategies (but without cutting price). Most children with severe deficiency in the developed world are now likely to have access to a pediatric endocrinologist and be diagnosed and offered treatment.

Pediatric endocrinology became a recognizable specialty in the 1950�s, but did not reach board status in the U.S. until the late 1970�s. Even 10 years later, as a cognitive, procedureless specialty dealing with mostly rare diseases, it was one of the smallest, lowest paid, and more obscure of the medical specialities. Pediatric endocrinologists were the only physicians interested in the arcana of GH metabolism and children�s growth, but their previously academic arguments took on new practical significance with major financial implications.

The major scientific arguments dated back to the days of GH scarcity:

Everyone agrees on the nature and diagnosis of severe GH deficiency, but what are the edges and variations?

How should marked constitutional delay be distinguished from partial GH deficiency?

To what extent is �normal shortness� a matter of short children naturally making less growth hormone?

Can a child make GH in response to a stimulation test but fail to make enough in �daily life� to grow normally?

If a stimulation test is used to define deficiency, what GH cutoff should be used to define normal?

It was the ethical questions that were new. Is GH a wise use of finite health care resources, or is the physician�s primary responsibility to the patient? If GH is given to most extremely short children to make them taller, will the definition of �extremely short� will simply rise, negating the expected social benefit? If GH is given to short children whose parents can afford it, will shortness become a permanent mark of lower social origins? More of these issues are outlined in the ethics section. Whole meetings were devoted to these questions-- pediatric endocrinology had become a specialty with its own bioethics issues.

Despite the price, the 1990�s became an era of experimentation to see what else growth hormone could help. The medical literature of the decade contains hundreds of reports of small trials of GH use in nearly every type of growth failure and shortness imaginable. In most cases the growth responses were modest. For conditions with a large enough potential market, more rigorous trials were sponsored by growth hormone companies to achieve approval to market for those specific indications. Turner syndrome and chronic renal failure were the first of these �non GH deficient causes of shortness� to receive FDA approval for GH treatment, and Prader-Willi syndrome and intrauterine growth retardation followed. Similar expansion of use occurred in Europe.

One obvious potential market was adult GH deficiency. By the mid-1990�s, several GH companies had sponsored or publicized research into the quality of life of adults with severe GH deficiency. Most were people who had been treated with GH in childhood for severe deficiency. Nearly all of them had been happy to leave the injections behind as they reached final heights in the low normal range. However as adults in their 30�s and 40�s, these people had more than their share of common adult problems: reduced physical, mental, and social energy, excess adipose and diminished muscle, diminished libido, poor bone density, higher cholesterol levels, and higher rates of cardiovascular disease. Research trials soon confirmed that a few months of GH could improve nearly all of these parameters. However, despite marketing efforts, most GH deficient adults remain untreated.

Ironically, though GH use was slow to be accepted among adults with GH deficiency, similar research to see if GH treatment could slow or reverse some of the similar effects of aging attracted much public interest. The most publicized trial was reported by Daniel Rudman in 1990 (Rudman D, Feller AG, Nagraj HS et al; Effect of human growth hormone in men over 60 years old; New Engl J Med 323:1-6). As with other types of hormone supplementation for aging (testosterone, estrogen, DHEA), confirmation of benefit and accurate understanding of risks has been only slowly evolving. Use of GH for effects of aging is discussed in more detail in HGH quackery.

There are always entrepreneurs who don't need much evidence to see a business opportunity. In 1997, Ronald Klatz published Grow Young With HGH: The Amazing Medically Proven Plan To Reverse the Effects Of Aging (New York:Harper-Collins), an uncritical touting of GH as the answer to aging. This time the internet amplified the proposition and spawned a hundred frauds and scams. Fortunately, their adoption of the "HGH" term has provided an easy way to distinguish the hype from the evidence. For more, see HGH quackery.

In 2003, growth hormone hit the news again, when the US FDA granted Eli Lilly approval to market Humatrope for the treatment of idiopathic short stature. The indication was controversial for several reasons, the primary one being the difficulty in defining extreme shortness with normal test results as a disease rather than the extreme end of the normal height range; in fact, the definition offered by Lilly for ISS is a height in the shortest 1.2% of the population. While this is an extreme degree of shortness, critics suggested that the company could afford to be extremely restrictive to earn approval, yet be confident that the definition, as well as actual use, would be driven upward by parents and physicians. Meanwhile, pediatric endocrinologists are still arguing about whether ISS is a "pathologic" or a statistical condition.

As of 2004, GH use continues to rise, though it is no longer the most expensive prescription drug in the formulary. Synthetic growth hormones available in the U.S. (and their manufacturers) included Nutropin (Genentech), Humatrope (Lilly), Genotropin (Pfizer), Norditropin (Novo), and Saizen (Serono). The products are nearly identical in composition, efficacy, and cost, varying primarily in the formulations and delivery devices.

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[> [> [> [> [> Winstrol -- Colonel Angus, 09:34:24 12/12/05 Mon

Stanozolol, sold under the name Winstrol, was developed by Winthrop Laboratories in 1962. It is a synthetic anabolic steroid derived from testosterone, and has been approved by the FDA for human use.

Unlike most injectable anabolic steroids, Stanozolol is not esterified and is sold as an aqueous suspension. The drug has a large oral bioavailability, due to a C17 �-alkylation which allows the hormone to survive first pass liver metabolism when ingested. Because of this, Stanozolol is also sold in tablet form

Stanozolol has been used on both animal and human patients for a number of conditions. In humans, it has been demonstrated to be successful in treating anaemia and hereditary angioedema. Veterinarians may prescribe the drug to improve muscle growth, red blood cell production, increase bone density and stimulate the appetite of debilitated or weakened animals. It is also illegally used in bodybuilding, typically "stacked" with other testosterone-based anabolic steroids.

The drug has been known to cause masculinising side-effects in women with doses as low as 2 mg per day, and liver damage has been known to occur with extended usage of larger doses.

" All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain. "

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Replies:

[> Re: STEVIE SOLAR HAYS -- annmarie, 20:43:39 03/24/05 Thu

Ah, the goofy smile.
Missing the big guy more than words can say. Hope everyone is coping in there own private way, I saw a fabulous blossom tree the other day in Queens park and for some reason I filled up and could think of nothing but Steve. I see him in everything beautiful and innocent (oh, and in fat slick bass riffs and the odd guinness!).
Not all the memories are painfull, he loved to laugh and was quite good at making me do so at the same time. Lets start a keep Stevie alive pact. All stories welcome, bring them on......love and peace annmarie x